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14548Re: [ANE-2] On the Historicity of Troy

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  • Graham Hagens
    Oct 24, 2012
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      "....what about the process of textual canonization ....succession of the episodes as well as conventions of
      storytelling, adherence to one main plot and shaping of the characters
      as well of the finer points of epic diction and dialect  that begun at a
      time preceding our earliest Iliadic testimonies ? The number of the
      lines may have varied somewhat with a few accretions before the time of
      the Alexandrine editors, but no wholesale books of the Iliad ever crept
      in nor were there ever transpositions of episodes or entire books,
      unlike what happens in the textual tradition of the Mahâbhârata ...... 'crystallization', or 'linguistic arrest',
      cannot be put later than 560 B.C. when the Athenians used Iliad 2.
      257-258 as evidence against the Megarians,....and is likely to be considerably older,
      especially if one puts credance in the demonstrations that the Iliad and
      Odyssy are orally-derived compositions ....As for "using a text whose oldest copy is
      centuries & centuries after the time it purportedly describe", .... own over
      1500 papyri of the poem, the oldest of which approach the third century"

      While this reply is interesting, surely it does no more than reduce Trudy's "centuries & centuries" to just "centuries" 
      A   ~560 BC testimony of   utilization of  text from the Iliad, says nothing about the state of textual canonisation at that time
      Snodgrass (Archaic Greece 1980: 72) wrote of the "great web of unsystematic oral mythology which existed throughout Greek history without being enshrined in verse form," and of the evidence that mythical scenes during the Archaic period  departed from the ‘official version’ of  the epic.   Also (Dark Age Greece  2001: 429, 431), with respect to diffusion of epic and the Homeric poems.  "in Ionia it is certain that an unbroken tradition ran from the time of the Ionian migration down to Homer" and that "before the Homeric poems can have been diffused we should infer that there was first an era of general interest and pride in the heroic age"  
       
       
      > One of the (usually) unspoken problems with classical text like the
      > Iliad is the lack of any versions at all near the time it was
      > supposedly composed or written down or edited or… In other words using
      > a text whose oldest copy is centuries & centuries after the time it
      > purportedly describes to date an archaeological site that is even
      > older is very, very difficult, to say the least.
      >
      > In the ANE we can trace a fair amount of how the Gilgamesh stories
      > went from the historical kernel of a king/strongman/local hero of Uruk
      > to an epic of man’s search for immortality to Star Trek. It would be a
      > bit naïve to assume that this natural creative mutability did not
      > apply to the stories focused around the city states during the
      > turbulent times at the turn of the millennium (broadly considered).
      >
      > Trudy S. Kawami
      >

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       Isn't  this ~half millennium of undocumented activity more to Trudy's point?
       
      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, ON
       In response to Trudy Kawami, Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote October 22, 2012 6:11 PM:


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