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14399Re: [ANE-2] History of Writing

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  • Diana Gainer
    Jul 20 12:05 PM
      A better source of information on Paleolithic symbols -- not to mention more recent -- is the Bradshaw Foundation online.
      The results of Genevieve von Petzinger's 2009 analysis may be found there as well as pictorial examples of rock art from
      around the world for comparison. 
      My own research indicates that of the symbols on the Dispilio tablet, most are virtually universal.  A few examples should
      suffice to demonstrate this.  The triangle appears as a symbol in early writing or proto-writing systems: Egyptian hieroglyphs,
      Old Chinese, Luwian hieroglyphs, proto-cuneiform, proto-Elamite, Cretan hieroglyphs, Indus "script," and in non-script symbol
      systems including native Texas, native Nevada, native Australia, and Pazyryk tamgas (ownership marks).  The same or
      similar distribution characterizes the cross or plus sign, the circled circle, the circled cross, the comb, the rake, the feather
      or grain ear, and the hash marks which may or may not be numerical.  Slightly less widespread are the open quandrangle, the
      "H" and "ladder" (similar to "H" but with three horizontals).  Another symbol resembling "M" skewered by a vertical is
      found in Old Chinese, in America (Texas and Nevada), Old Europe, and among Pazyryk tamgas.  My research has not yet
      incorporated African cave art, but I expect most of these (if not all) will find parallels there as well.  For example, the rake
      symbol resembles the East African Adinkra symbol named hwehwemudua.
      In other words, all over the world people marked objects with symbols whose purpose is not immediately clear to the naive
      viewer.  This does not automatically mean that all these marks are writing.
      Diana Gainer
      Greenville, TX
      (Texas A&M Commerce)

      From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 10:33 AM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] History of Writing


      An upper Paleolithic Aurignacian alphabet? 37 separate phonemes 35,000
      years ago for foraging hunter-gatherers? The Mas D'Azil bone carvings and
      the Azil Culture dates from the cusp of the upper Paleolithic and Mesolithic
      and the beginning of the domestication of animals, in this case reindeer,
      horses and oxen and apparent numerical carvings but an 1899 book W. Z.
      Ripley, "Races of Europe: A Sociological Study" by a sociologist suggests an
      alphabet based on studies by C. Letourneau (1896) Les Signes Libyques des
      Dolmens, Bull. Soc. D'Anthrop, p 319. who compared the Mas D'Azil carvings
      with dolmen carvings and found that some of the very rudimentary signs like
      the circle with a dot and the plus sign cross and other incomplete
      rectangles just as in this carving, were common from Neolithic Africa to
      Ireland but they are rudimentary signs that any culture would make for
      pictographs. Letourneau called the, "Signes Alphabetiformes'
      (alphabet-like). This was the late 19th century. I am not the expert in
      writing systems that Peter is but I cannot make the leap from these
      pictographs to an acrophonic system. Apparently neither could others over
      the last century. Could the proto-Canaanite/Sinaitic systems have used
      these common rudiments in their true acrophonic systems? Sure. I admit I am
      intrigued but you need to give me more citations.

      Jack kilmon
      Houston, TX

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ian Onvlee
      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 1:43 AM
      To: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] History of Writing

      Hi all,

      I totally disagree with both Peter and Jack. The signs are authentic and
      indeed from the 6th millennium BC Greece. It's not mere propaganda and it is
      indeed a full-fledged script. It doiesn't seem te be a text nor a hunting
      description. It can be seen that it is a list of symbols organized in 4 rows
      of 11, thus in total 41 systematically organized syllable or alfabetic
      signs. The first six or seven on the left seem to me to be a musical
      notation (flute notes). There are only a few repetitions, in fact 4, making
      the total number of unique signs precisely 37, which conforms exactly to the
      number of symbols for the Persian alfabet and the musical system of 37
      mathematical ratios. I have studied this issue extensively and these symbols
      are clearly an intermediate form between the Cave Art alfabetic system from
      Southern France, dated from 33,000 to 13,000 BC, I discussed earlier but
      nobody shows interest in (just because it seems totally alien to the current
      theories of the Bible and ancient chronology), followed by the Mas d'Azilian
      pebble script which had spread eastwards over both North-Africa an the Alps
      and northwards from 10,000 to 3500 BC , in turn followed by the later
      Sinaitic writings and the scripts of the Fenicians, Hebrews and other
      Semitic as well as Indo-European folks. We also still have the undeciphered
      Balkan script dated to around 5000 BC to consider, as well as the undatable
      Tamashek, the Amazigh Berber writings, also as yet undeciphered.

      And yes, our so-called modern theory of the history of writing needs a huge
      makeover and to be turned 180 degrees upside down so to speak. It's becoming
      quite untenable and obsolete. This - IMO - is not simply a nationalistic
      Greek propaganda issue but something that originated around 35,000 BC
      worldwide in the Cave Art Cro-Magnon communities, introducing a true
      alfabetic writing system right from the start. It apparently underwent a
      decline (disusage) between 15,000 and 3500 BC but the knowledge of this
      system eventually re-emerged from its long sleep in certain pockets of (new)
      civilization, probably some time between 6000 and 5000 BC.

      For those who forgot what we are talking about, see again:

      Ian Onvlee

      From: Jack Kilmon <mailto:jkilmon%40historian.net>
      To: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, July 20, 2012 2:16 AM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] History of Writing

      I have to agree with Peter. This is not writing and definitely not a
      primitive alphabet or, IMO, even a progenitor. That does not mean its not a
      significant artifact. It appears to me to be a pictographic depiction of a
      hunt. Note the arrow with 4 vertical lines "four arrows." There are forests
      the hunters traveled through to find the prey and how many days depicted by
      a sun. This makes it similar to some of our own Native American
      pictographic accounts of hunts and battles. The attempt to interpret it as
      Greece being the origin of writing is propaganda that detracts from the
      artifact's true purpose. Dispilio "scripture" is, IMO, hyperbole. This
      Mesolithic Period is also the time true agriculture began in the Natufian
      Levant and this date being considerably after that, might represent its
      spread westward . The botanical looking pictographs may represent a
      planting production. It's fun to speculate but Peter is right (after all,
      he is the imperial grand dragon of writing systems), the lack of repetitions
      makes it obvious it is not writing.

      Jack Kilmon
      Houston, TX

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Peter T. Daniels
      Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 3:40 PM
      To: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] History of Writing

      Please don't publicize chauvinistic propaganda. What the heck are "word
      entries," that Greek has 800,000 of and the "next" (but unnamed) language
      has 200,000 of?

      If that object bears writing, why are there no repeated sequences of
      signs -- and hardly any repeated signs at all?
      Peter T. Daniels mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net
      Jersey City

      From: Antonio Lombatti <mailto:antonio.lombatti%40mac.com>
      >To: "mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2012 12:30 PM
      >Subject: [ANE-2] History of Writing
      >Parma, Italia
      >Inviato da iPhone

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