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13129Re: A New Year's Question:

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  • Phoenix
    Jan 17, 2011
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      Dear Sirs,

      "Middle Egyptian Grammar" by James Hoch (1997) states on page 32:

      "1) The Forms: Of the three sets of pronouns, the suffix pronouns are by
      far the most widely used,
      since they are attached to nouns (and nominal forms) to express the
      genitival notion and additionally
      they are attached to verb forms to express the subject. The basic
      function is genitival (even with verbs)
      and corresponds more or less to the English possessive pronouns "my,"
      "his,", "their,", etc. Of course,
      when used as the subject of verbs, they must be translated by English
      nominative pronouns: "I," "he,"
      "they," etc. The pronouns are directly attached to the word - after the
      determinative - and absolutely
      nothing can separate them from the word to which they are affixed."

      The term "suffix pronoun" makes sense since the pronoun is inseparably
      attached to the word in question,
      at least the way it is explained by Hoch, above.

      This is a grammar that many students begin a study of Egyptian
      hieroglyphs with with.
      It is easy to read, conventional American notebook size (8 1/2" x 11 "
      I find it easier to tote about than Gardiner's third edition. No
      training wheels necessary!

      Here is the information for proper reference:

      "Middle Egyptian Grammar", ©1997 by James E. Hoch, Toronto
      (SSEA Publications; v. 15)
      Co-published by the Society for the Study of Egyptian Antiquities
      ISBN 0-920168-12-4

      Happy Calendrical New Year!,

      Demetria Nanos, Chicago, Illinois


      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, David Lorton <davidlorton@...> wrote:
      > My best wishes to all for the New Year 2011!
      > When this thread began, I thought some other Egyptologist would jump
      in with a response to Bob Whiting’s original inquiry.
      > Since no one did, I thought I might as well make a contribution now,
      though the thread died down a few days ago. Since the query had to do
      with an English-language phrase, I’ll confine my response to that
      > All serious students of the ancient Egyptian language (not just
      demotists) begin with the stage known as Middle Egyptian. And for
      decades, we’ve had two outstanding grammars, each of them
      intended as a research grammar but also divided, for teaching purposes,
      into lessons: Sir Alan Gardiner, _Egyptian Grammar_, and the more recent
      work by James P. Allen, _Middle Egyptian_. In each grammar, one of the
      first items the beginner encounters is the set of pronouns in question,
      which Sir Alan calls “suffix-pronouns” (note the hyphen)
      and James Allen calls “suffix pronouns” (without the
      hyphen). These pronouns occur in all the stages of the language, up to
      and including Coptic.
      > And that’s it! The term is established in our grammars, with
      the result that it’ll continue to be used for a long time to
      come, regardless of whether or not it happens to be infelicitous for
      some technical, linguistic reason. I suppose Doug Petrovich was correct
      in suggesting the term “inertia” to describe the
      > David Lorton
      > Baltimore, Maryland
      > -----Original Message-----
      > >From: Douglas Petrovich dp@...
      > >Sent: Jan 1, 2011 2:20 PM
      > >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [ANE-2] A New Year's Question: "suffix pronoun" vs
      "pronominal suffix"
      > >
      > >Bob,
      > >
      > >The prof I had for Middle and Late Egyptian at a well-established
      university, who also was trained in Demotic and Hieratic, consistently
      used "suffix pronoun" as opposed to "pronominal suffix", so it is no
      surprise to me what you experienced with this Demotist. This seems to be
      the preference among Egyptologists, and there are few things more
      powerful than inertia with an attitude.
      > >
      > >And incidentally, and possibly non-coincidentally, this prof revealed
      his hatred of English grammar when once our discussion digressed from
      Egyptian grammar to English grammar. The amazing thing to see was his
      supreme gift at handling Egyptian grammar vs. his distain and lack of
      confidence when turning to English grammar.
      > >
      > >Technically speaking, "suffix pronoun" features two nouns, and thus
      is grammatically incorrect in English. The only legitimate alternative
      would be to hyphenate the words ("suffix-pronoun"), which essentially is
      the cowardly way out. So, one is left to ask, "Is it a suffix, or is it
      a pronoun?" This is what has led several of our respondents to suggest
      "suffixed pronoun" as a viable alternative.
      > >
      > >In reference to one of your other comments along these lines, I would
      suggest to you that the two grammatically acceptable choices ("suffix
      pronoun" not being one of them) are indeed completely interchangeable,
      and that there is NO matter of using one or the other to stress the
      pronoun or the noun. This is an artificial notion.
      > >
      > >The only other matter worth mentioning is that the respondent who
      prefers "suffixed pronoun" likely reveals the "gut feeling" of most
      native English speakers who are neither familiar or comfortable with the
      established pronominal form for the word pronoun, which--in this
      case-happens to be the word "pronominal".
      > >
      > >Why abandon the established form for the one chosen? Many of us are
      just not comfortable using what is so unfamiliar. Honestly, though, most
      of us do the same with a wide variety of other adjectives, as well. For
      example, we tend to say "participle form" over "participial form", and
      so on. This is just a lack of discipline leading to a dumbing down.
      > >
      > >We, as academics, do not like to associate ourselves with a
      derogatory term such as "dumbing down", but the reality is that we also
      are guilty of this in numerous ways, despite our love for precision and
      erudition. Part of humility, however, is being willing to call a spade a
      spade, even when it may be self-incriminating.
      > >
      > >Hoping this helps,
      > >
      > >Doug Petrovich
      > >Toronto, CA
      > >
      > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >------------------------------------
      > >
      > >Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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