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13080Re: [ANE-2] A New Year's Question: "suffix pronoun" vs "pronominal suffix"

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  • Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
    Jan 1, 2011
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      I, too, prefer pronominal suffix for genitive and accusative pronouns
      suffixed to other words. For the subject markers, I use the terms
      sufformatives and preformatives. I deal with the Semitic languages as
      a rule, though, and I picked up the terms from Pardee, I'm sure.
      Somehow, to my addled brain, "suffixed pronoun" implies a form that
      otherwise occurs independently but can be attached to another word
      with little or no change. Historically, of course, the pronominal
      suffixes came from the independent pronouns, but now have forms quite
      distinct from the independent forms, at least in Classical Hebrew. For
      what it's worth.

      It's been a while, but doesn't Coptic have pronouns that behave as I
      described "suffixed pronouns" above?

      Donald R. Vance, Ph.D.
      Professor of Biblical Languages and Literature
      Oral Roberts University
      dvance@...
      donaldrvance@...


      On Jan 1, 2011, at 3:57 AM, R. Lehmann wrote:

      > Frank,
      > wouldn't that mean the the correct term could only be "SuffixED
      > pronoun"?
      > Actually I prefer pronominal suffix, esp. in contrast to
      > conjugational suffixes as are suggested in Ugaritic, where many
      > scholars even in German speak of Suffix Conjugation instead of
      > Afformativ Conjugation or the like. At least pronominal suffix works
      > much better when teaching Hebrew, Aramaic or Phoenician, at least in
      > Germany...
      > What's a suffix at all?
      >
      > Happy New Year,
      > Reinhard
      >
      > �
      > �
      > ����������������������������������������������������������������������
      > Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann
      > Academic Director
      > Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
      > FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
      > Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
      > D-55099 Mainz
      > Germany
      > lehmann@...
      > http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de
      > http://www.ev.theologie.uni-mainz.de/297.php
      > Subsidia et Instrumenta Linguarum Orientis (SILO):
      > http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/182.php
      > 10th Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH):
      > http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php
      >
      > Am 01.01.2011 um 10:20 schrieb Frank Polak:
      >
      > > Actually, I think, "suffix pronoun" is the better term. After all,
      > the
      > > possessive/object/dative suffix
      > > (and the nominative suffix, if you think of the stative endings) are
      > > interchangeable with
      > > independent pronouns (and in the textual tradition also with nouns),
      > > but not with, e.g., enclitic particles.
      > >
      > > A happy new year,
      > >
      > > Frank Polak
      > >
      > > On 01/01/2011, at 01:18, Robert M Whiting wrote:
      > >
      > >> A question arose the other day about the use of "suffix pronoun" in
      > >> contrast to "pronominal suffix". I preferred the latter in a
      > certain
      > >> context but was told that "suffix pronoun" is the established term
      > >> among
      > >> demotists and that besides, "it's a bit more than a mere pronominal
      > >> suffix."
      > >>
      > >> Now I would maintain that "suffix pronoun" and "pronominal
      > suffix" are
      > >> completely interchangeable (unlike some adjective-noun pairs like,
      > >> say,
      > >> "house cat" and "cat house") and using one or the other at any
      > given
      > >> time
      > >> would depend on whether one wanted to stress the pronoun or the
      > suffix
      > >> aspect of the beast. I would also expect the grammatically correct
      > >> "pronominal suffix" to be slightly preferred over the less robust
      > >> "suffix
      > >> pronoun" (with the more correct "suffixed pronoun" perhaps
      > sharing the
      > >> honors_).
      > >>
      > >> Well, demotists are strange creatures in any case, but are they
      > really
      > >> biased towards "suffix pronoun" over "pronominal suffix"? To test
      > this
      > >> conumdrum, I took the example of Marc Cooper and headed for The
      > >> Google.
      > >> These are the results of several searches (if they are difficult to
      > >> read,
      > >> switch to a fixed font):
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" phoenician | About 3,170 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" phoenician | About 220 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" arabic | About 13,800 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" arabic | About 1,250 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" hebrew | About 36,000 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" hebrew | About 1,280 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" akkadian | About 5,030
      > >> "suffix pronoun" akkadian | About 317 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" ugaritic | About 4,100 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" ugaritic | About 174 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" ethiopic | About 3,200 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" ethiopic | About 308 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" "semitic languages" |About 3,430 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" "semitic languages" |About 356 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" egyptian | About 12,400 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" egyptian | About 2,490 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" coptic | About 1,270 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" coptic | About 720 results
      > >>
      > >> "pronominal suffix" demotic | About 277 results
      > >> "suffix pronoun" demotic | About 459 results
      > >>
      > >> The usual caveats about Google searchs apply: There are doubtless
      > >> numerous ovrlaps in the search results, but I think it likely that
      > >> these
      > >> will only increase the size of the numbers, not their relative
      > >> proportions.
      > >>
      > >> The results are astonishing (at least to me). While semitists
      > prefer
      > >> "pronominal suffix" over "suffix pronoun" by at least 10 to 1
      > (several
      > >> times this in some categories), demotists actually prefer "suffix
      > >> pronoun"
      > >> by about 5 to 3. Furthermore, other Egyptological branches also
      > seem
      > >> to
      > >> be more amenable to "suffix pronoun", with Egyptian at only 5 to
      > 1 in
      > >> favor of "pronominal suffix" (due to the search parameters, there
      > >> may a
      > >> large number of Egyptian Arabic examples included in this number)
      > and
      > >> Coptic at less than 2 to 1 in favor.
      > >>
      > >> So the claim that "suffix pronoun" is established among demotists,
      > >> would
      > >> seem to be borne out, and now comes the question: Why is this so?
      > >> Why do
      > >> demotists reverse a universal trend and prefer "suffix pronoun"
      > over
      > >> "pronominal suffix"? I am loathe to ascribe this to the natural
      > >> perverseness of demotists, so there must be some reason why this
      > >> particular discipline bucks a trend that is obvious, if not
      > >> overwhelming,
      > >> among semitists. Is it based on a translation from some master
      > >> demotist
      > >> whose word cannot be altered? Does it have it roots it the wider
      > >> field of
      > >> Egyptology, which seems to be several times more tolerant of
      > "suffix
      > >> pronoun" than its semitist countepart?
      > >>
      > >> A second question is: Does anyone have any reason to believe that
      > >> there
      > >> is any difference in meaning between "suffix pronoun" and
      > "pronominal
      > >> suffix"? Does anyone claim, or know of anyone who claims, that a
      > >> "suffix
      > >> pronoun" and a "pronominal suffix" are different things? Is this an
      > >> idea
      > >> that is current among demotists?
      > >>
      > >> Any help is welcome, but especially from those who plough the
      > >> vowelless
      > >> wastes of ancient Egyptian.
      > >>
      > >> Bob Whiting
      > >> whiting@...
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >



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