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10019RE: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea

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  • Joe Zias
    Feb 28 1:05 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      David Stacey on the subject of dams in antiquity writes "If it was all so
      easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all over the country?"
      The answer is simple, in the desert areas where rain fall is minimal as in
      Masada, Qumran and Jericho, dams are necessary to collect runoff from higher
      elevations. In areas where there is adequate seasonal rainfall or springs,
      such as Jerusalem, Caesarea, Beit Shean ect, they are unnecessary.



      Joe Zias



      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      dastacey62
      Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 9:51 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead Sea



      So Joe, Building a dam 4 to 5 m high, with walls on average perhaps
      2.5 m thick, perhaps with foundations cut into the bedrock, was all a
      bit of a doddle. The fact that no trace of it has survived the floods
      of the past 2000 years indicates the forces it had to withstand. If
      it was all so easy why didn't every Tom, Dick or Harry build dams all
      over the country? The fact is that only Herod seems to have had the
      necessary knowledge and resources which he put to use in his two
      prestigious city water systems; for the high-level aqueduct at
      Caesarea, and the Wadi el-Biyar dam in the Solomons Pool system
      outside Jerusalem.
      David Stacey

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> , Joe Zias
      <joezias@...> wrote:
      >
      > David Stacey writes in connection to Goransons post the
      following::The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
      >
      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
      >
      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
      >
      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
      had
      >
      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran.
      >
      > I would like to remind readers that a few kms up the road in the
      8th millineum BC the folks in Jericho were already constructing dams.
      For the folks in Qumran I doub't if this was any mean feat, some
      8,000 yrs later.
      >
      > Joe
      >
      > Joe Zias www.joezias.com
      > Anthropology/Paleopathology
      >
      > Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
      > Jerusalem, Israel
      >
      > --- On Thu, 2/26/09, dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...> wrote:
      > From: dastacey62 <DAVID.STACEY63@...>
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: ink from a Dead Sea Scroll made near the Dead
      Sea
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Date: Thursday, February 26, 2009, 9:59 AM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Stephen It is noticeable how selective you are in what
      you want to
      >
      > draw to peoples attention. You did not, for example, inform this
      list
      >
      > of either my article in DSD 14:2 (2007) in which I showed that,
      from
      >
      > the archaeological data, the only buildings existing throughout
      >
      > seventy years of the Hasmonean period were the tower, the pottery
      >
      > kilns and the industrial building - no living quarters, not enough
      >
      > water for year round occupation, unlikely site for elite scribes. I
      >
      > also showed that the 'main' aqueduct and, with it, the expansion of
      >
      > Qumran, could not possible date earlier than 31 BCE. By merely
      >
      > ignoring it this fact will not go away. Nor did you mention my
      >
      > article in BAIAS 26 (2008) in which I suggested that during that
      time
      >
      > the site was a seasonal industrial area.
      >
      >
      >
      > To further consolidate the dating of the 'main' aqueduct I suggest
      >
      > you consider the dam that was eventually built across the mouth of
      a
      >
      > basin in Nahal Qumran to capture flood water. This dam must have
      been
      >
      > between 4 and 5 metres high and as such the base of the walls must
      >
      > have been c. 3m thick (compare with the Byzantine dams associated
      >
      > with the low-level aqueduct at Caesarea). It had to withstand the
      >
      > ferocity of torrential floods and would have been a considerable
      feet
      >
      > of engineering, requiring great technological know how and a large
      >
      > budget. The only dams from the Second Temple period of which I am
      >
      > aware are both considered to be the work of Herod and are integral
      >
      > parts of the water systems of two of his most prestigious cities,
      >
      > Jerusalem and Caesarea (high level aqueduct). Neither would have
      had
      >
      > to withstand the same ferocity of floods as in Qumran. The Qumran
      >
      > dam is clearly related to the expansion of the site which required
      >
      > the raising of the sides of the cistern L110 (as noted by de Vaux
      >
      > 1973: 9)and the two pools L117 and 118. A channel overflowing from
      >
      > the top of the raised side of L117 takes water to the NE. Magen and
      >
      > Peleg have traced part of this channel running over a 'northern'
      dump
      >
      > (Magen and Peleg 2007 Fig 11) which they date to 'the first half of
      >
      > the first century' (M and P 2007:8). When the material from
      >
      > this 'dump' is published it may well confirm my dating of
      the 'main'
      >
      > aqueduct to c. 31 BCE.
      >
      >
      >
      > As an archaeologist I can only address archaeological issues with
      >
      > any confidence. I can make no contribuition to the dating of the
      >
      > Thanksgiving Scroll. However I understand it has been dated as
      early
      >
      > as the 2nd century BCE (thus Eshel)or to about 40 BCE (thus Stokl)
      a
      >
      > period when there is no evidence for permanent occupation at
      Qumran.
      >
      > So even it is was written somewhere near the Dead Sea it's unlikely
      >
      > that it was at Qumran.
      >
      >
      >
      > David Stacey
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, goranson@ wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > A new article reports measurements of the ratio of chlorine and
      >
      > bromine in ink
      >
      > > from a Qumran Cave One manuscript and concludes that the ink was
      >
      > prepared with
      >
      > > water from or near the Dead Sea; the Qumran scroll was inscribed
      >
      > near the Dead
      >
      > > Sea.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Ira Rabin, Oliver Hahn, Timo Wolff, Admir Masic and Gisela
      >
      > Weinberg, "On the
      >
      > > Origin of the Ink of the Thanksgiving Scroll (1QHodayot a)," Dead
      >
      > Sea
      >
      > > Discoveries 16.1 (2009) 97-106.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Abstract (p. 97): "In this study we demonstrate the possibility
      to
      >
      > > identify the
      >
      > > production area of the scrolls, coupling non-destructive
      >
      > quantitative analysis
      >
      > > of trace elements to spectroscopic investigation of the inks.
      This
      >
      > approach,
      >
      > > that allowed us to determine the Dead Sea area as origin of
      >
      > 1QHodayot a, is of
      >
      > > general validity."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Conclusion (p. 102) "Using the fingerprint composition of the
      water
      >
      > from the
      >
      > > Dead Sea region we could directly link the fragment, and
      >
      > consequently, the
      >
      > > production of 1QHodayot a to the Qumran area. Furthermore, our
      >
      > study of
      >
      > > organic
      >
      > > components present in the carbon ink of this scroll indicates
      that
      >
      > gall nuts
      >
      > > extracts were used in the ink preparation as early as 1st century
      >
      > C.E."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Stephen Goranson
      >
      > > http://www.duke edu/~goranson/ Essenes_& _Others.pdf
      >
      > > "Others and Intra-Jewish Polemic as Reflected in Qumran Texts"
      >
      > >
      >
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >





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