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Re: Canals

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  • gearjammer123us
    Kirk... what happens at a waterfall? if a 2 foot section of water is removed. and WATER DOES NOT STRETCH then you can count on that 2 foot section filling
    Message 1 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Kirk...

      what happens at a waterfall?
      if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
      and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
      then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
      again in a extremely short time.
      in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
      the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
      there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
      because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a slower
      rate of flow.
      because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
      and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
      has less and less flow restriction.
      if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
      larger canal dont throw away the idea.
      you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and fill
      up faster than you could count to 2.
















      --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
      > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
      different. All
      > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the less
      slope
      > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the needed
      slope. If
      > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but that
      isn't the
      > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on wall
      > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
      without
      > calculating it if you want.
      >
      > Kirk
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
      > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
      > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
      > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
      >
      >
      > AMAZING
      > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
      > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
      >
      > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
      > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
      >
      > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
      >
      > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
      > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
      >
      > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
      > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
      > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
      >
      > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
      removed
      > the 2 ft section from.
      >
      > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks its
      > own level.
      >
      > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
      >
      > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
      > of the flowing water.
      > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
      > this resistance can be null.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
      > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and sides
      > of the
      > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it is
      > perfectly
      > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height. This
      > also means
      > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and enter
      the
      > high
      > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000 miles
      > needs 20
      > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
      > >
      > > Kirk
      > >
      > > -----Original Message-----
      > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
      > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
      > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
      > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
      > >
      > >
      > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
      > >
      > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
      > > then cut it down the middle.
      > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
      > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
      > > and fill them both with water.
      > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
      > > for reference purposes.
      > >
      > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
      > > at one end of the model canals.
      > >
      > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different colored
      > > water and place it in the other color water side.
      > >
      > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
      > >
      > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
      > > the water in the canals.
      > >
      > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
      > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the water
      out
      > of
      > > in each of the half pipes...
      > >
      > >
      > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
      supply
      > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end of
      the
      > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed water
      > > in the pipe.
      > >
      > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing to
      > you.
      > >
      > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
      > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I don't
      > > understand how
      > > >
      > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
      > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I missed something?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---
      > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
      > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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      > >
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      > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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      > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
      > ---
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    • kirk
      True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the canal at first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back with decreasing drop.
      Message 2 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
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        True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the canal at
        first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back with
        decreasing drop.

        http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag loss for
        sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
        The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches in a mile.
        Pretty big canal.

        The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of flow
        characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-1/ref=
        sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912

        Kirk


        -----Original Message-----
        From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
        Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
        To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


        Kirk...

        what happens at a waterfall?
        if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
        and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
        then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
        again in a extremely short time.
        in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
        the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
        there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
        because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a slower
        rate of flow.
        because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
        and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
        has less and less flow restriction.
        if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
        larger canal dont throw away the idea.
        you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and fill
        up faster than you could count to 2.
















        --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
        > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
        different. All
        > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the less
        slope
        > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the needed
        slope. If
        > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but that
        isn't the
        > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on wall
        > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
        without
        > calculating it if you want.
        >
        > Kirk
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
        > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
        > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
        > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
        >
        >
        > AMAZING
        > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
        > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
        >
        > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
        > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
        >
        > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
        >
        > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
        > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
        >
        > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
        > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
        > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
        >
        > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
        removed
        > the 2 ft section from.
        >
        > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks its
        > own level.
        >
        > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
        >
        > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
        > of the flowing water.
        > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
        > this resistance can be null.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
        > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and sides
        > of the
        > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it is
        > perfectly
        > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height. This
        > also means
        > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and enter
        the
        > high
        > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000 miles
        > needs 20
        > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
        > >
        > > Kirk
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
        > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
        > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
        > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
        > >
        > >
        > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
        > >
        > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
        > > then cut it down the middle.
        > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
        > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
        > > and fill them both with water.
        > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
        > > for reference purposes.
        > >
        > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
        > > at one end of the model canals.
        > >
        > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different colored
        > > water and place it in the other color water side.
        > >
        > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
        > >
        > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
        > > the water in the canals.
        > >
        > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
        > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the water
        out
        > of
        > > in each of the half pipes...
        > >
        > >
        > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
        supply
        > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end of
        the
        > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed water
        > > in the pipe.
        > >
        > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing to
        > you.
        > >
        > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
        > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I don't
        > > understand how
        > > >
        > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
        > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > I missed something?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ---
        > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
        > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
        > >
        > > ---
        > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
        > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
        > ---
        > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
        > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
        >
        > ---
        > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
        > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002



        To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/



        ---
        Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
        Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002

        ---
        Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
        Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
        Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
      • gearjammer123us
        Kirk... if the water is being pumped out continously the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second... 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
        Message 3 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
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          Kirk...

          if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
          the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...

          50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
          1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.

          2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
          3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
          14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
          897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
          each minute.

          the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
          5000 HP
          this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
          we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
          so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP

          so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
          I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
          32 MW input energy...

          the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of energy.

          that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
          even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.

          what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?

          are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to group
          together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that our
          world faces...

          even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
          resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
          equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
          along the canal.

          if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity of
          fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
          second.

          it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot understand
          .... it is not complicated enought for you....
          you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that this
          is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
          this is impossible you say it can not be.

          there are only two types of energy in physics...

          potential and kinetic...
          yet the energy from each is the same.








































          --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
          > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the canal
          at
          > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back
          with
          > decreasing drop.
          >
          > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag
          loss for
          > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
          > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches
          in a mile.
          > Pretty big canal.
          >
          > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of
          flow
          > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
          >
          http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
          1/ref=
          > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
          >
          > Kirk
          >
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
          > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
          > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
          > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
          >
          >
          > Kirk...
          >
          > what happens at a waterfall?
          > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
          > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
          > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
          > again in a extremely short time.
          > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
          > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
          > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
          > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a slower
          > rate of flow.
          > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
          > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
          > has less and less flow restriction.
          > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
          > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
          > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and fill
          > up faster than you could count to 2.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
          > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
          > different. All
          > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
          less
          > slope
          > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the needed
          > slope. If
          > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but that
          > isn't the
          > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
          wall
          > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
          > without
          > > calculating it if you want.
          > >
          > > Kirk
          > >
          > > -----Original Message-----
          > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
          > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
          > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
          > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
          > >
          > >
          > > AMAZING
          > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
          > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
          > >
          > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
          > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
          > >
          > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
          > >
          > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
          > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
          > >
          > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
          > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
          > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
          > >
          > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
          > removed
          > > the 2 ft section from.
          > >
          > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks its
          > > own level.
          > >
          > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
          > >
          > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
          > > of the flowing water.
          > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
          > > this resistance can be null.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
          > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
          sides
          > > of the
          > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it is
          > > perfectly
          > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height. This
          > > also means
          > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and enter
          > the
          > > high
          > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
          miles
          > > needs 20
          > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
          > > >
          > > > Kirk
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
          > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
          > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
          > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
          > > >
          > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
          > > > then cut it down the middle.
          > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
          > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
          > > > and fill them both with water.
          > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
          > > > for reference purposes.
          > > >
          > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
          > > > at one end of the model canals.
          > > >
          > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different colored
          > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
          > > >
          > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
          > > >
          > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
          > > > the water in the canals.
          > > >
          > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
          > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the water
          > out
          > > of
          > > > in each of the half pipes...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
          > supply
          > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end of
          > the
          > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
          water
          > > > in the pipe.
          > > >
          > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing to
          > > you.
          > > >
          > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
          > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
          don't
          > > > understand how
          > > > >
          > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
          > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > I missed something?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
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        • kirk
          Very simple. Start with an empty canal. Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you happy, a certain mass into the canal, When it is
          Message 4 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
            Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you happy, a
            certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the canal
            represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic energy of
            the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage system on a
            grand scale?

            Kirk

            -----Original Message-----
            From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
            Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
            To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


            Kirk...

            if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
            the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...

            50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
            1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.

            2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
            3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
            14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
            897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
            each minute.

            the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
            5000 HP
            this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
            we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
            so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP

            so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
            I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
            32 MW input energy...

            the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of energy.

            that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
            even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.

            what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?

            are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to group
            together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that our
            world faces...

            even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
            resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
            equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
            along the canal.

            if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity of
            fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
            second.

            it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot understand
            .... it is not complicated enought for you....
            you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that this
            is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
            this is impossible you say it can not be.

            there are only two types of energy in physics...

            potential and kinetic...
            yet the energy from each is the same.








































            --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
            > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the canal
            at
            > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back
            with
            > decreasing drop.
            >
            > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag
            loss for
            > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
            > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches
            in a mile.
            > Pretty big canal.
            >
            > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of
            flow
            > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
            >
            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
            1/ref=
            > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
            >
            > Kirk
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
            > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
            > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
            > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
            >
            >
            > Kirk...
            >
            > what happens at a waterfall?
            > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
            > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
            > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
            > again in a extremely short time.
            > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
            > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
            > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
            > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a slower
            > rate of flow.
            > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
            > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
            > has less and less flow restriction.
            > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
            > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
            > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and fill
            > up faster than you could count to 2.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
            > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
            > different. All
            > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
            less
            > slope
            > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the needed
            > slope. If
            > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but that
            > isn't the
            > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
            wall
            > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
            > without
            > > calculating it if you want.
            > >
            > > Kirk
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
            > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
            > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
            > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
            > >
            > >
            > > AMAZING
            > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
            > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
            > >
            > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
            > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
            > >
            > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
            > >
            > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
            > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
            > >
            > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
            > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
            > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
            > >
            > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
            > removed
            > > the 2 ft section from.
            > >
            > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks its
            > > own level.
            > >
            > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
            > >
            > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
            > > of the flowing water.
            > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
            > > this resistance can be null.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
            > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
            sides
            > > of the
            > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it is
            > > perfectly
            > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height. This
            > > also means
            > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and enter
            > the
            > > high
            > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
            miles
            > > needs 20
            > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
            > > >
            > > > Kirk
            > > >
            > > > -----Original Message-----
            > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
            > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
            > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
            > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
            > > >
            > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
            > > > then cut it down the middle.
            > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
            > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
            > > > and fill them both with water.
            > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
            > > > for reference purposes.
            > > >
            > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
            > > > at one end of the model canals.
            > > >
            > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different colored
            > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
            > > >
            > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
            > > >
            > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
            > > > the water in the canals.
            > > >
            > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
            > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the water
            > out
            > > of
            > > > in each of the half pipes...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
            > supply
            > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end of
            > the
            > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
            water
            > > > in the pipe.
            > > >
            > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing to
            > > you.
            > > >
            > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
            > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
            don't
            > > > understand how
            > > > >
            > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
            > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > I missed something?
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
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            > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
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          • gearjammer123us
            Kirk... Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart? that is like saying that you need to first build a sun and then wait for it to cause wind. and then the
            Message 5 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Kirk...
              Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
              that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
              and then wait for it to cause wind.
              and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
              is the amount you put in building the sun...

              in other words simplt put... bullcrap.





              --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
              > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
              > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you
              happy, a
              > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the canal
              > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
              energy of
              > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
              system on a
              > grand scale?
              >
              > Kirk
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
              > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
              > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
              > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
              >
              >
              > Kirk...
              >
              > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
              > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
              >
              > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
              > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
              >
              > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
              > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
              > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
              > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
              > each minute.
              >
              > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
              > 5000 HP
              > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
              > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
              > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
              >
              > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
              > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
              > 32 MW input energy...
              >
              > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of energy.
              >
              > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
              > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
              >
              > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?
              >
              > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to group
              > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that our
              > world faces...
              >
              > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
              > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
              > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
              > along the canal.
              >
              > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity
              of
              > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
              > second.
              >
              > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
              understand
              > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
              > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that this
              > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
              > this is impossible you say it can not be.
              >
              > there are only two types of energy in physics...
              >
              > potential and kinetic...
              > yet the energy from each is the same.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
              > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
              canal
              > at
              > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back
              > with
              > > decreasing drop.
              > >
              > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag
              > loss for
              > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
              > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches
              > in a mile.
              > > Pretty big canal.
              > >
              > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of
              > flow
              > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
              > >
              >
              http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
              > 1/ref=
              > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
              > >
              > > Kirk
              > >
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
              > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
              > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
              > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
              > >
              > >
              > > Kirk...
              > >
              > > what happens at a waterfall?
              > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
              > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
              > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
              > > again in a extremely short time.
              > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
              > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
              > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
              > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
              slower
              > > rate of flow.
              > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
              > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
              > > has less and less flow restriction.
              > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
              > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
              > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and
              fill
              > > up faster than you could count to 2.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
              > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
              > > different. All
              > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
              > less
              > > slope
              > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
              needed
              > > slope. If
              > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but
              that
              > > isn't the
              > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
              > wall
              > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
              > > without
              > > > calculating it if you want.
              > > >
              > > > Kirk
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
              > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
              > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
              > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > AMAZING
              > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
              > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
              > > >
              > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
              > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
              > > >
              > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
              > > >
              > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
              > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
              > > >
              > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
              > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
              > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
              > > >
              > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
              > > removed
              > > > the 2 ft section from.
              > > >
              > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks
              its
              > > > own level.
              > > >
              > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
              > > >
              > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
              > > > of the flowing water.
              > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
              > > > this resistance can be null.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
              > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
              > sides
              > > > of the
              > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it
              is
              > > > perfectly
              > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
              This
              > > > also means
              > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
              enter
              > > the
              > > > high
              > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
              > miles
              > > > needs 20
              > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
              > > > >
              > > > > Kirk
              > > > >
              > > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
              > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
              > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
              > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
              > > > >
              > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
              > > > > then cut it down the middle.
              > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
              > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
              > > > > and fill them both with water.
              > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
              > > > > for reference purposes.
              > > > >
              > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
              > > > > at one end of the model canals.
              > > > >
              > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
              colored
              > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
              > > > >
              > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
              > > > >
              > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
              > > > > the water in the canals.
              > > > >
              > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
              > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
              water
              > > out
              > > > of
              > > > > in each of the half pipes...
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
              > > supply
              > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end
              of
              > > the
              > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
              > water
              > > > > in the pipe.
              > > > >
              > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing
              to
              > > > you.
              > > > >
              > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
              > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
              > don't
              > > > > understand how
              > > > > >
              > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
              > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
              > > > > >
              > > > > >
              > > > > > I missed something?
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
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            • gearjammer123us
              kirk. your embarrasing attempts at proving there is no free energy has strengtned my conviction and those who are following this discussion. you have proven
              Message 6 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
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                kirk.
                your embarrasing attempts at proving there is no free energy has
                strengtned my conviction and those who are following this discussion.

                you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot accept
                reality and have choose to remain an ostrage with his head stuck in
                the sand knowing that the world cannot see you as it passes you by.

                I have tried my best by showing you perfect mathmetical examples
                yet you just dont seem to realize that there just isnt such a thing
                as "no free energy".
                repeatedly I have tried my best to do this yet even with extremely
                simple examples you fail to have the inteligence to comprehend them.
                so what am I to do group?
                should I continue to exert my energy in this manner knowing that his
                mind has been brainwashed to such an extent?
                or should I just give up?

                I dont feel obligated to try further.








                --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you
                happy, a
                > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the canal
                > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                energy of
                > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                system on a
                > grand scale?
                >
                > Kirk
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                >
                >
                > Kirk...
                >
                > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                >
                > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                >
                > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
                > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
                > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                > each minute.
                >
                > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
                > 5000 HP
                > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                >
                > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                > 32 MW input energy...
                >
                > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of energy.
                >
                > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                >
                > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?
                >
                > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to group
                > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that our
                > world faces...
                >
                > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
                > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                > along the canal.
                >
                > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity
                of
                > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
                > second.
                >
                > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                understand
                > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that this
                > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                >
                > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                >
                > potential and kinetic...
                > yet the energy from each is the same.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                canal
                > at
                > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back
                > with
                > > decreasing drop.
                > >
                > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag
                > loss for
                > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches
                > in a mile.
                > > Pretty big canal.
                > >
                > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of
                > flow
                > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                > >
                >
                http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                > 1/ref=
                > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                > >
                > > Kirk
                > >
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                > >
                > >
                > > Kirk...
                > >
                > > what happens at a waterfall?
                > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                > > again in a extremely short time.
                > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
                > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                slower
                > > rate of flow.
                > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
                > > has less and less flow restriction.
                > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
                > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and
                fill
                > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
                > > different. All
                > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
                > less
                > > slope
                > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                needed
                > > slope. If
                > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but
                that
                > > isn't the
                > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
                > wall
                > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
                > > without
                > > > calculating it if you want.
                > > >
                > > > Kirk
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > AMAZING
                > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                > > >
                > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
                > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                > > >
                > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                > > >
                > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                > > >
                > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                > > >
                > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
                > > removed
                > > > the 2 ft section from.
                > > >
                > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks
                its
                > > > own level.
                > > >
                > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                > > >
                > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                > > > of the flowing water.
                > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                > > > this resistance can be null.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
                > sides
                > > > of the
                > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it
                is
                > > > perfectly
                > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                This
                > > > also means
                > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                enter
                > > the
                > > > high
                > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
                > miles
                > > > needs 20
                > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                > > > >
                > > > > Kirk
                > > > >
                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                > > > >
                > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                > > > > and fill them both with water.
                > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                > > > > for reference purposes.
                > > > >
                > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                > > > >
                > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                colored
                > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                > > > >
                > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                > > > >
                > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                > > > > the water in the canals.
                > > > >
                > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
                > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                water
                > > out
                > > > of
                > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
                > > supply
                > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end
                of
                > > the
                > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
                > water
                > > > > in the pipe.
                > > > >
                > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing
                to
                > > > you.
                > > > >
                > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
                > don't
                > > > > understand how
                > > > > >
                > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > I missed something?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
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                > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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              • kirk
                Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive? I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness comes automatically. The circulating energy
                Message 7 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
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                  Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                  I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness comes
                  automatically.
                  The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get out more
                  than you put in.
                  Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                  Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.

                  Kirk

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
                  Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                  To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


                  Kirk...
                  Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                  that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                  and then wait for it to cause wind.
                  and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                  is the amount you put in building the sun...

                  in other words simplt put... bullcrap.





                  --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                  > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                  > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you
                  happy, a
                  > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the canal
                  > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                  energy of
                  > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                  system on a
                  > grand scale?
                  >
                  > Kirk
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                  > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                  > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                  > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                  >
                  >
                  > Kirk...
                  >
                  > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                  > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                  >
                  > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                  > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                  >
                  > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                  > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
                  > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
                  > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                  > each minute.
                  >
                  > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
                  > 5000 HP
                  > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                  > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                  > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                  >
                  > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                  > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                  > 32 MW input energy...
                  >
                  > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of energy.
                  >
                  > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                  > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                  >
                  > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?
                  >
                  > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to group
                  > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that our
                  > world faces...
                  >
                  > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
                  > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                  > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                  > along the canal.
                  >
                  > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity
                  of
                  > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
                  > second.
                  >
                  > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                  understand
                  > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                  > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that this
                  > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                  > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                  >
                  > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                  >
                  > potential and kinetic...
                  > yet the energy from each is the same.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                  > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                  canal
                  > at
                  > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back
                  > with
                  > > decreasing drop.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag
                  > loss for
                  > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                  > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches
                  > in a mile.
                  > > Pretty big canal.
                  > >
                  > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of
                  > flow
                  > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                  > >
                  >
                  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                  > 1/ref=
                  > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                  > >
                  > > Kirk
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                  > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                  > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                  > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Kirk...
                  > >
                  > > what happens at a waterfall?
                  > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                  > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                  > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                  > > again in a extremely short time.
                  > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                  > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                  > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
                  > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                  slower
                  > > rate of flow.
                  > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                  > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
                  > > has less and less flow restriction.
                  > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
                  > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                  > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and
                  fill
                  > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                  > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
                  > > different. All
                  > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
                  > less
                  > > slope
                  > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                  needed
                  > > slope. If
                  > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but
                  that
                  > > isn't the
                  > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
                  > wall
                  > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
                  > > without
                  > > > calculating it if you want.
                  > > >
                  > > > Kirk
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                  > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                  > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                  > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > AMAZING
                  > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                  > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                  > > >
                  > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
                  > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                  > > >
                  > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                  > > >
                  > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                  > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                  > > >
                  > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                  > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                  > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                  > > >
                  > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
                  > > removed
                  > > > the 2 ft section from.
                  > > >
                  > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks
                  its
                  > > > own level.
                  > > >
                  > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                  > > >
                  > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                  > > > of the flowing water.
                  > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                  > > > this resistance can be null.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                  > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
                  > sides
                  > > > of the
                  > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it
                  is
                  > > > perfectly
                  > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                  This
                  > > > also means
                  > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                  enter
                  > > the
                  > > > high
                  > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
                  > miles
                  > > > needs 20
                  > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Kirk
                  > > > >
                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                  > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                  > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                  > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                  > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                  > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                  > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                  > > > > and fill them both with water.
                  > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                  > > > > for reference purposes.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                  > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                  colored
                  > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                  > > > > the water in the canals.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
                  > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                  water
                  > > out
                  > > > of
                  > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
                  > > supply
                  > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end
                  of
                  > > the
                  > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
                  > water
                  > > > > in the pipe.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing
                  to
                  > > > you.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                  > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
                  > don't
                  > > > > understand how
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                  > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > I missed something?
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                  > > > >
                  > > > >
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                • kirk
                  Rubbish. ... From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:57 PM To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com Subject:
                  Message 8 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Rubbish.

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
                    Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:57 PM
                    To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


                    kirk.
                    your embarrasing attempts at proving there is no free energy has
                    strengtned my conviction and those who are following this discussion.

                    you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that you cannot accept
                    reality and have choose to remain an ostrage with his head stuck in
                    the sand knowing that the world cannot see you as it passes you by.

                    I have tried my best by showing you perfect mathmetical examples
                    yet you just dont seem to realize that there just isnt such a thing
                    as "no free energy".
                    repeatedly I have tried my best to do this yet even with extremely
                    simple examples you fail to have the inteligence to comprehend them.
                    so what am I to do group?
                    should I continue to exert my energy in this manner knowing that his
                    mind has been brainwashed to such an extent?
                    or should I just give up?

                    I dont feel obligated to try further.








                    --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                    > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                    > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you
                    happy, a
                    > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the canal
                    > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                    energy of
                    > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                    system on a
                    > grand scale?
                    >
                    > Kirk
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                    > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                    > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                    >
                    >
                    > Kirk...
                    >
                    > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                    > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                    >
                    > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                    > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                    >
                    > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                    > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
                    > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
                    > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                    > each minute.
                    >
                    > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
                    > 5000 HP
                    > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                    > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                    > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                    >
                    > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                    > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                    > 32 MW input energy...
                    >
                    > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of energy.
                    >
                    > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                    > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                    >
                    > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?
                    >
                    > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to group
                    > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that our
                    > world faces...
                    >
                    > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
                    > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                    > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                    > along the canal.
                    >
                    > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity
                    of
                    > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
                    > second.
                    >
                    > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                    understand
                    > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                    > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that this
                    > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                    > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                    >
                    > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                    >
                    > potential and kinetic...
                    > yet the energy from each is the same.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                    > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                    canal
                    > at
                    > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further back
                    > with
                    > > decreasing drop.
                    > >
                    > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives drag
                    > loss for
                    > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                    > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3 inches
                    > in a mile.
                    > > Pretty big canal.
                    > >
                    > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates of
                    > flow
                    > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                    > >
                    >
                    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                    > 1/ref=
                    > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                    > >
                    > > Kirk
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                    > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                    > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                    > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Kirk...
                    > >
                    > > what happens at a waterfall?
                    > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                    > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                    > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                    > > again in a extremely short time.
                    > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                    > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                    > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the canal
                    > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                    slower
                    > > rate of flow.
                    > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                    > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the wall
                    > > has less and less flow restriction.
                    > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
                    > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                    > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and
                    fill
                    > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                    > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
                    > > different. All
                    > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
                    > less
                    > > slope
                    > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                    needed
                    > > slope. If
                    > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but
                    that
                    > > isn't the
                    > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
                    > wall
                    > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it up
                    > > without
                    > > > calculating it if you want.
                    > > >
                    > > > Kirk
                    > > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                    > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                    > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                    > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > AMAZING
                    > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                    > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                    > > >
                    > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height differential
                    > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                    > > >
                    > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                    > > >
                    > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                    > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                    > > >
                    > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                    > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                    > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                    > > >
                    > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
                    > > removed
                    > > > the 2 ft section from.
                    > > >
                    > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks
                    its
                    > > > own level.
                    > > >
                    > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                    > > >
                    > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                    > > > of the flowing water.
                    > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                    > > > this resistance can be null.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                    > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
                    > sides
                    > > > of the
                    > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it
                    is
                    > > > perfectly
                    > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                    This
                    > > > also means
                    > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                    enter
                    > > the
                    > > > high
                    > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
                    > miles
                    > > > needs 20
                    > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Kirk
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                    > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                    > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                    > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                    > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                    > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                    > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                    > > > > and fill them both with water.
                    > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                    > > > > for reference purposes.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                    > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                    colored
                    > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                    > > > > the water in the canals.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will flow
                    > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                    water
                    > > out
                    > > > of
                    > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
                    > > supply
                    > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
                    > water
                    > > > > in the pipe.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water flowing
                    to
                    > > > you.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                    > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
                    > don't
                    > > > > understand how
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                    > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I missed something?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
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                  • gearjammer123us
                    if you would like to discuss the physics then we can. lets do just that. 1 we start with 2 full canals. we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                    Message 9 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                      lets do just that.

                      1 we start with 2 full canals.
                      we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.

                      2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                      we do this continously.

                      3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                      we use the pumps that I supplied links to.

                      4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                      we use KE=1/2mv^2

                      after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                      of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.

                      are you game or just full of it.
                      more than likely you will agree to do this.
                      then you will quit as all others have.
                      fearing your precious laws of physics will
                      prove to have been broken.

















                      --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                      > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                      > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness
                      comes
                      > automatically.
                      > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get out
                      more
                      > than you put in.
                      > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                      > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                      >
                      > Kirk
                      >
                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                      > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                      > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                      >
                      >
                      > Kirk...
                      > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                      > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                      > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                      > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                      > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                      >
                      > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                      > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                      > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you
                      > happy, a
                      > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the
                      canal
                      > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                      > energy of
                      > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                      > system on a
                      > > grand scale?
                      > >
                      > > Kirk
                      > >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                      > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                      > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                      > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Kirk...
                      > >
                      > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                      > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                      > >
                      > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                      > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                      > >
                      > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                      > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
                      > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
                      > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                      > > each minute.
                      > >
                      > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
                      > > 5000 HP
                      > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                      > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                      > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                      > >
                      > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                      > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                      > > 32 MW input energy...
                      > >
                      > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                      energy.
                      > >
                      > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                      > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                      > >
                      > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?
                      > >
                      > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to
                      group
                      > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that
                      our
                      > > world faces...
                      > >
                      > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
                      > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                      > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                      > > along the canal.
                      > >
                      > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity
                      > of
                      > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
                      > > second.
                      > >
                      > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                      > understand
                      > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                      > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that
                      this
                      > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                      > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                      > >
                      > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                      > >
                      > > potential and kinetic...
                      > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                      > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                      > canal
                      > > at
                      > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further
                      back
                      > > with
                      > > > decreasing drop.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives
                      drag
                      > > loss for
                      > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                      > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                      inches
                      > > in a mile.
                      > > > Pretty big canal.
                      > > >
                      > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates
                      of
                      > > flow
                      > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                      > > 1/ref=
                      > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                      > > >
                      > > > Kirk
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                      > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                      > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                      > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Kirk...
                      > > >
                      > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                      > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                      > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                      > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                      > > > again in a extremely short time.
                      > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                      > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                      > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                      canal
                      > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                      > slower
                      > > > rate of flow.
                      > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                      > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the
                      wall
                      > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                      > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
                      > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                      > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and
                      > fill
                      > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                      > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
                      > > > different. All
                      > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
                      > > less
                      > > > slope
                      > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                      > needed
                      > > > slope. If
                      > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but
                      > that
                      > > > isn't the
                      > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
                      > > wall
                      > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it
                      up
                      > > > without
                      > > > > calculating it if you want.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Kirk
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                      > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                      > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                      > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > AMAZING
                      > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                      > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                      differential
                      > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                      > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                      > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                      > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
                      > > > removed
                      > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks
                      > its
                      > > > > own level.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                      > > > > of the flowing water.
                      > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                      > > > > this resistance can be null.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                      > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
                      > > sides
                      > > > > of the
                      > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it
                      > is
                      > > > > perfectly
                      > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                      > This
                      > > > > also means
                      > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                      > enter
                      > > > the
                      > > > > high
                      > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
                      > > miles
                      > > > > needs 20
                      > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Kirk
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                      > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                      > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                      > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                      > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                      > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                      > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                      > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                      > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                      > > > > > for reference purposes.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                      > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                      > colored
                      > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                      > > > > > the water in the canals.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will
                      flow
                      > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                      > water
                      > > > out
                      > > > > of
                      > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
                      > > > supply
                      > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end
                      > of
                      > > > the
                      > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
                      > > water
                      > > > > > in the pipe.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                      flowing
                      > to
                      > > > > you.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                      > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
                      > > don't
                      > > > > > understand how
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                      > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I missed something?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
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                      > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
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                    • kirk
                      Not precious. Just proven painfully to be true. Heinlein put it as TANSTAAFL Their Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. ... From: gearjammer123us
                      Message 10 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Not precious. Just proven painfully to be true.
                        Heinlein put it as TANSTAAFL
                        Their Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
                        Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 5:38 PM
                        To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


                        if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                        lets do just that.

                        1 we start with 2 full canals.
                        we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.

                        2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                        we do this continously.

                        3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                        we use the pumps that I supplied links to.

                        4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                        we use KE=1/2mv^2

                        after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                        of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.

                        are you game or just full of it.
                        more than likely you will agree to do this.
                        then you will quit as all others have.
                        fearing your precious laws of physics will
                        prove to have been broken.

















                        --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                        > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                        > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness
                        comes
                        > automatically.
                        > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get out
                        more
                        > than you put in.
                        > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                        > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                        >
                        > Kirk
                        >
                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                        > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                        > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                        > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                        >
                        >
                        > Kirk...
                        > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                        > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                        > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                        > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                        > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                        >
                        > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                        > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                        > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes you
                        > happy, a
                        > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the
                        canal
                        > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                        > energy of
                        > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                        > system on a
                        > > grand scale?
                        > >
                        > > Kirk
                        > >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                        > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                        > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                        > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Kirk...
                        > >
                        > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                        > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                        > >
                        > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                        > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                        > >
                        > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                        > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039 Gallons/second
                        > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338 GPM
                        > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                        > > each minute.
                        > >
                        > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated at
                        > > 5000 HP
                        > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                        > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                        > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                        > >
                        > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                        > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                        > > 32 MW input energy...
                        > >
                        > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                        energy.
                        > >
                        > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                        > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                        > >
                        > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple comparison?
                        > >
                        > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to
                        group
                        > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that
                        our
                        > > world faces...
                        > >
                        > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for the
                        > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                        > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                        > > along the canal.
                        > >
                        > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower velocity
                        > of
                        > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point each
                        > > second.
                        > >
                        > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                        > understand
                        > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                        > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that
                        this
                        > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                        > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                        > >
                        > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                        > >
                        > > potential and kinetic...
                        > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                        > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                        > canal
                        > > at
                        > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further
                        back
                        > > with
                        > > > decreasing drop.
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives
                        drag
                        > > loss for
                        > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                        > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                        inches
                        > > in a mile.
                        > > > Pretty big canal.
                        > > >
                        > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick estimates
                        of
                        > > flow
                        > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                        > > 1/ref=
                        > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                        > > >
                        > > > Kirk
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                        > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                        > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                        > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Kirk...
                        > > >
                        > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                        > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                        > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                        > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                        > > > again in a extremely short time.
                        > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                        > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                        > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                        canal
                        > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                        > slower
                        > > > rate of flow.
                        > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                        > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the
                        wall
                        > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                        > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just design a
                        > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                        > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up and
                        > fill
                        > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                        > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is very
                        > > > different. All
                        > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal the
                        > > less
                        > > > slope
                        > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                        > needed
                        > > > slope. If
                        > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--but
                        > that
                        > > > isn't the
                        > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based on
                        > > wall
                        > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look it
                        up
                        > > > without
                        > > > > calculating it if you want.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Kirk
                        > > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                        > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                        > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                        > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > AMAZING
                        > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                        > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                        differential
                        > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                        > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                        > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                        > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end you
                        > > > removed
                        > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it seeks
                        > its
                        > > > > own level.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                        > > > > of the flowing water.
                        > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                        > > > > this resistance can be null.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                        > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom and
                        > > sides
                        > > > > of the
                        > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming it
                        > is
                        > > > > perfectly
                        > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                        > This
                        > > > > also means
                        > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                        > enter
                        > > > the
                        > > > > high
                        > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so 2000
                        > > miles
                        > > > > needs 20
                        > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Kirk
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                        > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                        > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                        > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                        > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                        > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                        > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                        > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                        > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                        > > > > > for reference purposes.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                        > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                        > colored
                        > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                        > > > > > the water in the canals.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will
                        flow
                        > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                        > water
                        > > > out
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need to
                        > > > supply
                        > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the end
                        > of
                        > > > the
                        > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue dyed
                        > > water
                        > > > > > in the pipe.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                        flowing
                        > to
                        > > > > you.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                        > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic, but I
                        > > don't
                        > > > > > understand how
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                        > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > I missed something?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
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                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
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                      • gearjammer123us
                        NO just proven by the wrong people. once again are you willing to have your bubble busted? ... out ... you ... Gallons/second ... GPM ... at ... comparison?
                        Message 11 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          NO just proven by the wrong people.

                          once again are you willing to have your bubble busted?





                          --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                          > Not precious. Just proven painfully to be true.
                          > Heinlein put it as TANSTAAFL
                          > Their Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                          > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 5:38 PM
                          > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                          > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                          >
                          >
                          > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                          > lets do just that.
                          >
                          > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                          > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                          >
                          > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                          > we do this continously.
                          >
                          > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                          > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                          >
                          > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                          > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                          >
                          > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                          > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                          >
                          > are you game or just full of it.
                          > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                          > then you will quit as all others have.
                          > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                          > prove to have been broken.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                          > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                          > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness
                          > comes
                          > > automatically.
                          > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get
                          out
                          > more
                          > > than you put in.
                          > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                          > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                          > >
                          > > Kirk
                          > >
                          > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                          > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                          > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                          > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Kirk...
                          > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                          > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                          > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                          > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                          > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                          > >
                          > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                          > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                          > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes
                          you
                          > > happy, a
                          > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the
                          > canal
                          > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                          > > energy of
                          > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                          > > system on a
                          > > > grand scale?
                          > > >
                          > > > Kirk
                          > > >
                          > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                          > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                          > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                          > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Kirk...
                          > > >
                          > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                          > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                          > > >
                          > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                          > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                          > > >
                          > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                          > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                          Gallons/second
                          > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338
                          GPM
                          > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                          > > > each minute.
                          > > >
                          > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated
                          at
                          > > > 5000 HP
                          > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                          > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                          > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                          > > >
                          > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                          > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                          > > > 32 MW input energy...
                          > > >
                          > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                          > energy.
                          > > >
                          > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                          > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                          > > >
                          > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                          comparison?
                          > > >
                          > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to
                          > group
                          > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that
                          > our
                          > > > world faces...
                          > > >
                          > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for
                          the
                          > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                          > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                          > > > along the canal.
                          > > >
                          > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                          velocity
                          > > of
                          > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                          each
                          > > > second.
                          > > >
                          > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                          > > understand
                          > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                          > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that
                          > this
                          > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                          > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                          > > >
                          > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                          > > >
                          > > > potential and kinetic...
                          > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                          > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                          > > canal
                          > > > at
                          > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further
                          > back
                          > > > with
                          > > > > decreasing drop.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives
                          > drag
                          > > > loss for
                          > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                          > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                          > inches
                          > > > in a mile.
                          > > > > Pretty big canal.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                          estimates
                          > of
                          > > > flow
                          > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                          > > > 1/ref=
                          > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Kirk
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                          > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                          > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                          > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Kirk...
                          > > > >
                          > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                          > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                          > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                          > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                          > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                          > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                          > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                          > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                          > canal
                          > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                          > > slower
                          > > > > rate of flow.
                          > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                          > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the
                          > wall
                          > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                          > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                          design a
                          > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                          > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up
                          and
                          > > fill
                          > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                          > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                          very
                          > > > > different. All
                          > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal
                          the
                          > > > less
                          > > > > slope
                          > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                          > > needed
                          > > > > slope. If
                          > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--
                          but
                          > > that
                          > > > > isn't the
                          > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based
                          on
                          > > > wall
                          > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look
                          it
                          > up
                          > > > > without
                          > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Kirk
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                          > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                          > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                          > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > AMAZING
                          > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                          > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                          > differential
                          > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                          > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                          > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                          > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end
                          you
                          > > > > removed
                          > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                          seeks
                          > > its
                          > > > > > own level.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                          > > > > > of the flowing water.
                          > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                          > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom
                          and
                          > > > sides
                          > > > > > of the
                          > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming
                          it
                          > > is
                          > > > > > perfectly
                          > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                          > > This
                          > > > > > also means
                          > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                          > > enter
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > high
                          > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so
                          2000
                          > > > miles
                          > > > > > needs 20
                          > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Kirk
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                          > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                          > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                          > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                          > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                          > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                          > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                          > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                          > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                          > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                          > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                          > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                          > > colored
                          > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                          > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will
                          > flow
                          > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                          > > water
                          > > > > out
                          > > > > > of
                          > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need
                          to
                          > > > > supply
                          > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the
                          end
                          > > of
                          > > > > the
                          > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                          dyed
                          > > > water
                          > > > > > > in the pipe.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                          > flowing
                          > > to
                          > > > > > you.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                          > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                          but I
                          > > > don't
                          > > > > > > understand how
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                          > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > > I missed something?
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > >
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                        • gearjammer123us
                          deffinition of a PHYSICS CHICKEN. one who claims their laws are correct yet never can back them up. ... out ... you ... Gallons/second ... GPM ... at ...
                          Message 12 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            deffinition of a PHYSICS CHICKEN.
                            one who claims their laws are correct yet
                            never can back them up.


                            --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                            > Not precious. Just proven painfully to be true.
                            > Heinlein put it as TANSTAAFL
                            > Their Aint No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 5:38 PM
                            > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                            > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                            >
                            >
                            > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                            > lets do just that.
                            >
                            > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                            > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                            >
                            > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                            > we do this continously.
                            >
                            > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                            > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                            >
                            > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                            > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                            >
                            > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                            > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                            >
                            > are you game or just full of it.
                            > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                            > then you will quit as all others have.
                            > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                            > prove to have been broken.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                            > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                            > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness
                            > comes
                            > > automatically.
                            > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get
                            out
                            > more
                            > > than you put in.
                            > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                            > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                            > >
                            > > Kirk
                            > >
                            > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                            > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                            > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                            > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Kirk...
                            > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                            > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                            > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                            > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                            > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                            > >
                            > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                            > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                            > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes
                            you
                            > > happy, a
                            > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the
                            > canal
                            > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                            > > energy of
                            > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                            > > system on a
                            > > > grand scale?
                            > > >
                            > > > Kirk
                            > > >
                            > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                            > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                            > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                            > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Kirk...
                            > > >
                            > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                            > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                            > > >
                            > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                            > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                            > > >
                            > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                            > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                            Gallons/second
                            > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338
                            GPM
                            > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                            > > > each minute.
                            > > >
                            > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated
                            at
                            > > > 5000 HP
                            > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                            > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                            > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                            > > >
                            > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                            > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                            > > > 32 MW input energy...
                            > > >
                            > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                            > energy.
                            > > >
                            > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                            > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                            > > >
                            > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                            comparison?
                            > > >
                            > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to
                            > group
                            > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that
                            > our
                            > > > world faces...
                            > > >
                            > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for
                            the
                            > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                            > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                            > > > along the canal.
                            > > >
                            > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                            velocity
                            > > of
                            > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                            each
                            > > > second.
                            > > >
                            > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                            > > understand
                            > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                            > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that
                            > this
                            > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                            > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                            > > >
                            > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                            > > >
                            > > > potential and kinetic...
                            > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                            > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                            > > canal
                            > > > at
                            > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further
                            > back
                            > > > with
                            > > > > decreasing drop.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives
                            > drag
                            > > > loss for
                            > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                            > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                            > inches
                            > > > in a mile.
                            > > > > Pretty big canal.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                            estimates
                            > of
                            > > > flow
                            > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                            > > > 1/ref=
                            > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Kirk
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                            > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                            > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                            > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Kirk...
                            > > > >
                            > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                            > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                            > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                            > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                            > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                            > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                            > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                            > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                            > canal
                            > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                            > > slower
                            > > > > rate of flow.
                            > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                            > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the
                            > wall
                            > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                            > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                            design a
                            > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                            > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up
                            and
                            > > fill
                            > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                            > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                            very
                            > > > > different. All
                            > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal
                            the
                            > > > less
                            > > > > slope
                            > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                            > > needed
                            > > > > slope. If
                            > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--
                            but
                            > > that
                            > > > > isn't the
                            > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based
                            on
                            > > > wall
                            > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look
                            it
                            > up
                            > > > > without
                            > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Kirk
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                            > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                            > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                            > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > AMAZING
                            > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                            > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                            > differential
                            > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                            > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                            > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                            > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end
                            you
                            > > > > removed
                            > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                            seeks
                            > > its
                            > > > > > own level.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                            > > > > > of the flowing water.
                            > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                            > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                            > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom
                            and
                            > > > sides
                            > > > > > of the
                            > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming
                            it
                            > > is
                            > > > > > perfectly
                            > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                            > > This
                            > > > > > also means
                            > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                            > > enter
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > high
                            > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so
                            2000
                            > > > miles
                            > > > > > needs 20
                            > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Kirk
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                            > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                            > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                            > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                            > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                            > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                            > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                            > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                            > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                            > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                            > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                            > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                            > > colored
                            > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                            > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will
                            > flow
                            > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                            > > water
                            > > > > out
                            > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need
                            to
                            > > > > supply
                            > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the
                            end
                            > > of
                            > > > > the
                            > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                            dyed
                            > > > water
                            > > > > > > in the pipe.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                            > flowing
                            > > to
                            > > > > > you.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                            > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                            but I
                            > > > don't
                            > > > > > > understand how
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                            > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I missed something?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
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                          • gearjammer123us
                            you are incapable of proving me wrong. this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it. just like all the others. you stick your head in the sand. ... out ...
                            Message 13 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              you are incapable of proving me wrong.
                              this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it.
                              just like all the others.
                              you stick your head in the sand.





                              --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "gearjammer123us" <gearjammer123us@y...>
                              wrote:
                              > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                              > lets do just that.
                              >
                              > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                              > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                              >
                              > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                              > we do this continously.
                              >
                              > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                              > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                              >
                              > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                              > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                              >
                              > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                              > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                              >
                              > are you game or just full of it.
                              > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                              > then you will quit as all others have.
                              > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                              > prove to have been broken.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                              > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                              > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness
                              > comes
                              > > automatically.
                              > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get
                              out
                              > more
                              > > than you put in.
                              > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                              > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                              > >
                              > > Kirk
                              > >
                              > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                              > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                              > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                              > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Kirk...
                              > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                              > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                              > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                              > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                              > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                              > >
                              > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                              > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                              > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes
                              you
                              > > happy, a
                              > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the
                              > canal
                              > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                              > > energy of
                              > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                              > > system on a
                              > > > grand scale?
                              > > >
                              > > > Kirk
                              > > >
                              > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                              > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                              > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                              > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Kirk...
                              > > >
                              > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                              > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                              > > >
                              > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                              > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                              > > >
                              > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                              > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                              Gallons/second
                              > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338
                              GPM
                              > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                              > > > each minute.
                              > > >
                              > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated
                              at
                              > > > 5000 HP
                              > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                              > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                              > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                              > > >
                              > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                              > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                              > > > 32 MW input energy...
                              > > >
                              > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                              > energy.
                              > > >
                              > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                              > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                              > > >
                              > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                              comparison?
                              > > >
                              > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to
                              > group
                              > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that
                              > our
                              > > > world faces...
                              > > >
                              > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for
                              the
                              > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                              > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                              > > > along the canal.
                              > > >
                              > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                              velocity
                              > > of
                              > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                              each
                              > > > second.
                              > > >
                              > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                              > > understand
                              > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                              > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that
                              > this
                              > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                              > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                              > > >
                              > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                              > > >
                              > > > potential and kinetic...
                              > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
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                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                              > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                              > > canal
                              > > > at
                              > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further
                              > back
                              > > > with
                              > > > > decreasing drop.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives
                              > drag
                              > > > loss for
                              > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                              > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                              > inches
                              > > > in a mile.
                              > > > > Pretty big canal.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                              estimates
                              > of
                              > > > flow
                              > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                              http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                              > > > 1/ref=
                              > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Kirk
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                              > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                              > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                              > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Kirk...
                              > > > >
                              > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                              > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                              > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                              > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                              > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                              > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                              > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                              > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                              > canal
                              > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                              > > slower
                              > > > > rate of flow.
                              > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                              > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the
                              > wall
                              > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                              > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                              design a
                              > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                              > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up
                              and
                              > > fill
                              > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                              > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                              very
                              > > > > different. All
                              > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal
                              the
                              > > > less
                              > > > > slope
                              > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                              > > needed
                              > > > > slope. If
                              > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--
                              but
                              > > that
                              > > > > isn't the
                              > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based
                              on
                              > > > wall
                              > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look
                              it
                              > up
                              > > > > without
                              > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Kirk
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                              > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                              > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                              > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > AMAZING
                              > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                              > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                              > differential
                              > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                              > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                              > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                              > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end
                              you
                              > > > > removed
                              > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                              seeks
                              > > its
                              > > > > > own level.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                              > > > > > of the flowing water.
                              > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                              > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                              > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom
                              and
                              > > > sides
                              > > > > > of the
                              > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming
                              it
                              > > is
                              > > > > > perfectly
                              > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                              > > This
                              > > > > > also means
                              > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                              > > enter
                              > > > > the
                              > > > > > high
                              > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so
                              2000
                              > > > miles
                              > > > > > needs 20
                              > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Kirk
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                              > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                              > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                              > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                              > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                              > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                              > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                              > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                              > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                              > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                              > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                              > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                              > > colored
                              > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                              > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will
                              > flow
                              > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                              > > water
                              > > > > out
                              > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need
                              to
                              > > > > supply
                              > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the
                              end
                              > > of
                              > > > > the
                              > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                              dyed
                              > > > water
                              > > > > > > in the pipe.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                              > flowing
                              > > to
                              > > > > > you.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                              > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                              but I
                              > > > don't
                              > > > > > > understand how
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                              > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > I missed something?
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > >
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                            • kirk
                              So what is the purpose of this post? Sounds more like network wrestling than engineering. Fish or cut bait. Kirk ... From: gearjammer123us
                              Message 14 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                So what is the purpose of this post?
                                Sounds more like network wrestling than engineering.
                                Fish or cut bait.

                                Kirk

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
                                Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:30 PM
                                To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


                                you are incapable of proving me wrong.
                                this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it.
                                just like all the others.
                                you stick your head in the sand.





                                --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "gearjammer123us" <gearjammer123us@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                                > lets do just that.
                                >
                                > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                                > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                                >
                                > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                                > we do this continously.
                                >
                                > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                                > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                                >
                                > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                                > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                                >
                                > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                                > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                                >
                                > are you game or just full of it.
                                > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                                > then you will quit as all others have.
                                > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                                > prove to have been broken.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                                > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the rudeness
                                > comes
                                > > automatically.
                                > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get
                                out
                                > more
                                > > than you put in.
                                > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                                > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                                > >
                                > > Kirk
                                > >
                                > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                                > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Kirk...
                                > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                                > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                                > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                                > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                                > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                                > >
                                > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                                > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology makes
                                you
                                > > happy, a
                                > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in the
                                > canal
                                > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the kintic
                                > > energy of
                                > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                                > > system on a
                                > > > grand scale?
                                > > >
                                > > > Kirk
                                > > >
                                > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                                > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Kirk...
                                > > >
                                > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                                > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                                > > >
                                > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                                > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                                > > >
                                > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                                > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                                Gallons/second
                                > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds = 897662.337662338
                                GPM
                                > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                                > > > each minute.
                                > > >
                                > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are rated
                                at
                                > > > 5000 HP
                                > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                                > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                                > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                                > > >
                                > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                                > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                                > > > 32 MW input energy...
                                > > >
                                > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                                > energy.
                                > > >
                                > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                                > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                                > > >
                                > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                                comparison?
                                > > >
                                > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here to
                                > group
                                > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems that
                                > our
                                > > > world faces...
                                > > >
                                > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for
                                the
                                > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still be
                                > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional point
                                > > > along the canal.
                                > > >
                                > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                                velocity
                                > > of
                                > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                                each
                                > > > second.
                                > > >
                                > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                                > > understand
                                > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                                > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion that
                                > this
                                > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                                > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                                > > >
                                > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                                > > >
                                > > > potential and kinetic...
                                > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of the
                                > > canal
                                > > > at
                                > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and further
                                > back
                                > > > with
                                > > > > decreasing drop.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm gives
                                > drag
                                > > > loss for
                                > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                                > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                                > inches
                                > > > in a mile.
                                > > > > Pretty big canal.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                                estimates
                                > of
                                > > > flow
                                > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                                http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                                > > > 1/ref=
                                > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Kirk
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                                > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Kirk...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                                > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                                > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                                > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                                > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                                > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                                > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                                > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                                > canal
                                > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be a
                                > > slower
                                > > > > rate of flow.
                                > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the walls
                                > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from the
                                > wall
                                > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                                > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                                design a
                                > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                                > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up
                                and
                                > > fill
                                > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                                very
                                > > > > different. All
                                > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the canal
                                the
                                > > > less
                                > > > > slope
                                > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                                > > needed
                                > > > > slope. If
                                > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--
                                but
                                > > that
                                > > > > isn't the
                                > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables based
                                on
                                > > > wall
                                > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look
                                it
                                > up
                                > > > > without
                                > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Kirk
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                                > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > AMAZING
                                > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                                > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                                > differential
                                > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                                > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                                > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                                > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end
                                you
                                > > > > removed
                                > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                                seeks
                                > > its
                                > > > > > own level.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                                > > > > > of the flowing water.
                                > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                                > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom
                                and
                                > > > sides
                                > > > > > of the
                                > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force, assuming
                                it
                                > > is
                                > > > > > perfectly
                                > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall height.
                                > > This
                                > > > > > also means
                                > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end and
                                > > enter
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > high
                                > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so
                                2000
                                > > > miles
                                > > > > > needs 20
                                > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Kirk
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                                > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc pipe
                                > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                                > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                                > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                                > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                                > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                                > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                                > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                                > > colored
                                > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move all
                                > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water will
                                > flow
                                > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take the
                                > > water
                                > > > > out
                                > > > > > of
                                > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only need
                                to
                                > > > > supply
                                > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from the
                                end
                                > > of
                                > > > > the
                                > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                                dyed
                                > > > water
                                > > > > > > in the pipe.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                                > flowing
                                > > to
                                > > > > > you.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                                > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                                but I
                                > > > don't
                                > > > > > > understand how
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                                > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > I missed something?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
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                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
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                              • gearjammer123us
                                just stateing the facts. thats all. ... rudeness ... makes ... the ... kintic ... 897662.337662338 ... rated ... to ... that ... be ... point ... that ... the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  just stateing the facts.
                                  thats all.



                                  --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                  > So what is the purpose of this post?
                                  > Sounds more like network wrestling than engineering.
                                  > Fish or cut bait.
                                  >
                                  > Kirk
                                  >
                                  > -----Original Message-----
                                  > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                  > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:30 PM
                                  > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                  > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > you are incapable of proving me wrong.
                                  > this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it.
                                  > just like all the others.
                                  > you stick your head in the sand.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "gearjammer123us" <gearjammer123us@y...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                                  > > lets do just that.
                                  > >
                                  > > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                                  > > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                                  > >
                                  > > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                                  > > we do this continously.
                                  > >
                                  > > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                                  > > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                                  > >
                                  > > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                                  > > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                                  > >
                                  > > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                                  > > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                                  > >
                                  > > are you game or just full of it.
                                  > > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                                  > > then you will quit as all others have.
                                  > > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                                  > > prove to have been broken.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                  > > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                                  > > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the
                                  rudeness
                                  > > comes
                                  > > > automatically.
                                  > > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get
                                  > out
                                  > > more
                                  > > > than you put in.
                                  > > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                                  > > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Kirk
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                  > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                                  > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                  > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Kirk...
                                  > > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                                  > > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                                  > > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                                  > > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                                  > > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                  > > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                                  > > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology
                                  makes
                                  > you
                                  > > > happy, a
                                  > > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in
                                  the
                                  > > canal
                                  > > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the
                                  kintic
                                  > > > energy of
                                  > > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                                  > > > system on a
                                  > > > > grand scale?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Kirk
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                  > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                                  > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                  > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Kirk...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                                  > > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                                  > > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                                  > > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                                  > Gallons/second
                                  > > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds =
                                  897662.337662338
                                  > GPM
                                  > > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                                  > > > > each minute.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are
                                  rated
                                  > at
                                  > > > > 5000 HP
                                  > > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                                  > > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                                  > > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                                  > > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                                  > > > > 32 MW input energy...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                                  > > energy.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                                  > > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                                  > comparison?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here
                                  to
                                  > > group
                                  > > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems
                                  that
                                  > > our
                                  > > > > world faces...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for
                                  > the
                                  > > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still
                                  be
                                  > > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional
                                  point
                                  > > > > along the canal.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                                  > velocity
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                                  > each
                                  > > > > second.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                                  > > > understand
                                  > > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                                  > > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion
                                  that
                                  > > this
                                  > > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                                  > > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > potential and kinetic...
                                  > > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of
                                  the
                                  > > > canal
                                  > > > > at
                                  > > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and
                                  further
                                  > > back
                                  > > > > with
                                  > > > > > decreasing drop.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm
                                  gives
                                  > > drag
                                  > > > > loss for
                                  > > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                                  > > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                                  > > inches
                                  > > > > in a mile.
                                  > > > > > Pretty big canal.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                                  > estimates
                                  > > of
                                  > > > > flow
                                  > > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                                  > > > > 1/ref=
                                  > > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Kirk
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                  > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                                  > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                  > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Kirk...
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                                  > > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                                  > > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                                  > > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                                  > > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                                  > > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                                  > > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                                  > > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                                  > > canal
                                  > > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be
                                  a
                                  > > > slower
                                  > > > > > rate of flow.
                                  > > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the
                                  walls
                                  > > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from
                                  the
                                  > > wall
                                  > > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                                  > > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                                  > design a
                                  > > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                                  > > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up
                                  > and
                                  > > > fill
                                  > > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                                  > very
                                  > > > > > different. All
                                  > > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the
                                  canal
                                  > the
                                  > > > > less
                                  > > > > > slope
                                  > > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                                  > > > needed
                                  > > > > > slope. If
                                  > > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--
                                  > but
                                  > > > that
                                  > > > > > isn't the
                                  > > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables
                                  based
                                  > on
                                  > > > > wall
                                  > > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look
                                  > it
                                  > > up
                                  > > > > > without
                                  > > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Kirk
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                  > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                                  > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                  > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > AMAZING
                                  > > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                                  > > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                                  > > differential
                                  > > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                                  > > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                                  > > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                                  > > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end
                                  > you
                                  > > > > > removed
                                  > > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                                  > seeks
                                  > > > its
                                  > > > > > > own level.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                                  > > > > > > of the flowing water.
                                  > > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                                  > > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom
                                  > and
                                  > > > > sides
                                  > > > > > > of the
                                  > > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force,
                                  assuming
                                  > it
                                  > > > is
                                  > > > > > > perfectly
                                  > > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall
                                  height.
                                  > > > This
                                  > > > > > > also means
                                  > > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end
                                  and
                                  > > > enter
                                  > > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > high
                                  > > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so
                                  > 2000
                                  > > > > miles
                                  > > > > > > needs 20
                                  > > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Kirk
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                  > > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                  > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                                  > > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                  > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc
                                  pipe
                                  > > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                                  > > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                                  > > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                                  > > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                                  > > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                                  > > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                                  > > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                                  > > > colored
                                  > > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move
                                  all
                                  > > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water
                                  will
                                  > > flow
                                  > > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take
                                  the
                                  > > > water
                                  > > > > > out
                                  > > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only
                                  need
                                  > to
                                  > > > > > supply
                                  > > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from
                                  the
                                  > end
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > > > the
                                  > > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                                  > dyed
                                  > > > > water
                                  > > > > > > > in the pipe.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                                  > > flowing
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > > > you.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                                  > but I
                                  > > > > don't
                                  > > > > > > > understand how
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                                  > > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > I missed something?
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > >
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                                • kirk
                                  So not only have you succeeded where all others have failed, you double as a comedian. Truly a legend in your own mind. Kirk ... From: gearjammer123us
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Jul 4, 2002
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    So not only have you succeeded where all others have failed, you double as a
                                    comedian.
                                    Truly a legend in your own mind.

                                    Kirk

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
                                    Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 8:55 PM
                                    To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


                                    just stateing the facts.
                                    thats all.



                                    --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                    > So what is the purpose of this post?
                                    > Sounds more like network wrestling than engineering.
                                    > Fish or cut bait.
                                    >
                                    > Kirk
                                    >
                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                    > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                    > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:30 PM
                                    > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                    > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > you are incapable of proving me wrong.
                                    > this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it.
                                    > just like all the others.
                                    > you stick your head in the sand.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "gearjammer123us" <gearjammer123us@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                                    > > lets do just that.
                                    > >
                                    > > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                                    > > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                                    > >
                                    > > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                                    > > we do this continously.
                                    > >
                                    > > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                                    > > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                                    > >
                                    > > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                                    > > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                                    > >
                                    > > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                                    > > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                                    > >
                                    > > are you game or just full of it.
                                    > > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                                    > > then you will quit as all others have.
                                    > > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                                    > > prove to have been broken.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                    > > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                                    > > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the
                                    rudeness
                                    > > comes
                                    > > > automatically.
                                    > > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't get
                                    > out
                                    > > more
                                    > > > than you put in.
                                    > > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                                    > > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Kirk
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                    > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                                    > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                    > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Kirk...
                                    > > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                                    > > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                                    > > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                                    > > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                                    > > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                                    > > >
                                    > > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                    > > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                                    > > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology
                                    makes
                                    > you
                                    > > > happy, a
                                    > > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in
                                    the
                                    > > canal
                                    > > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the
                                    kintic
                                    > > > energy of
                                    > > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel storage
                                    > > > system on a
                                    > > > > grand scale?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Kirk
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                                    > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                    > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Kirk...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                                    > > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                                    > > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                                    > > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                                    > Gallons/second
                                    > > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds =
                                    897662.337662338
                                    > GPM
                                    > > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                                    > > > > each minute.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are
                                    rated
                                    > at
                                    > > > > 5000 HP
                                    > > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                                    > > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                                    > > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                                    > > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                                    > > > > 32 MW input energy...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                                    > > energy.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                                    > > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                                    > comparison?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here
                                    to
                                    > > group
                                    > > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems
                                    that
                                    > > our
                                    > > > > world faces...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate for
                                    > the
                                    > > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still
                                    be
                                    > > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional
                                    point
                                    > > > > along the canal.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                                    > velocity
                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                                    > each
                                    > > > > second.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                                    > > > understand
                                    > > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                                    > > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion
                                    that
                                    > > this
                                    > > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind says
                                    > > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > potential and kinetic...
                                    > > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of
                                    the
                                    > > > canal
                                    > > > > at
                                    > > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and
                                    further
                                    > > back
                                    > > > > with
                                    > > > > > decreasing drop.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm
                                    gives
                                    > > drag
                                    > > > > loss for
                                    > > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                                    > > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                                    > > inches
                                    > > > > in a mile.
                                    > > > > > Pretty big canal.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                                    > estimates
                                    > > of
                                    > > > > flow
                                    > > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                                    > > > > 1/ref=
                                    > > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Kirk
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                    > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                                    > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                    > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Kirk...
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                                    > > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                                    > > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                                    > > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                                    > > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                                    > > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                                    > > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                                    > > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through the
                                    > > canal
                                    > > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not be
                                    a
                                    > > > slower
                                    > > > > > rate of flow.
                                    > > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the
                                    walls
                                    > > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from
                                    the
                                    > > wall
                                    > > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                                    > > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                                    > design a
                                    > > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                                    > > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill up
                                    > and
                                    > > > fill
                                    > > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                                    > very
                                    > > > > > different. All
                                    > > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the
                                    canal
                                    > the
                                    > > > > less
                                    > > > > > slope
                                    > > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets the
                                    > > > needed
                                    > > > > > slope. If
                                    > > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely long--
                                    > but
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > > isn't the
                                    > > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables
                                    based
                                    > on
                                    > > > > wall
                                    > > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just look
                                    > it
                                    > > up
                                    > > > > > without
                                    > > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > Kirk
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                    > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                                    > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                    > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > AMAZING
                                    > > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must have
                                    > > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                                    > > differential
                                    > > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                                    > > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do this.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                                    > > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                                    > > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the end
                                    > you
                                    > > > > > removed
                                    > > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                                    > seeks
                                    > > > its
                                    > > > > > > own level.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                                    > > > > > > of the flowing water.
                                    > > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the design
                                    > > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the bottom
                                    > and
                                    > > > > sides
                                    > > > > > > of the
                                    > > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force,
                                    assuming
                                    > it
                                    > > > is
                                    > > > > > > perfectly
                                    > > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall
                                    height.
                                    > > > This
                                    > > > > > > also means
                                    > > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end
                                    and
                                    > > > enter
                                    > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > high
                                    > > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps so
                                    > 2000
                                    > > > > miles
                                    > > > > > > needs 20
                                    > > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Kirk
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                    > > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                    > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                                    > > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                    > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc
                                    pipe
                                    > > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                                    > > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two canals.
                                    > > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                                    > > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                                    > > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                                    > > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel down
                                    > > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a different
                                    > > > colored
                                    > > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move
                                    all
                                    > > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water
                                    will
                                    > > flow
                                    > > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take
                                    the
                                    > > > water
                                    > > > > > out
                                    > > > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only
                                    need
                                    > to
                                    > > > > > supply
                                    > > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from
                                    the
                                    > end
                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                                    > dyed
                                    > > > > water
                                    > > > > > > > in the pipe.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                                    > > flowing
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > > you.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...> wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                                    > but I
                                    > > > > don't
                                    > > > > > > > understand how
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required to
                                    > > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > I missed something?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
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                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
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                                  • gearjammer123us
                                    well I have succeeded in getting the word out where others have failed. as for the commedian part you fit that role much better. ... double as a ...
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Jul 5, 2002
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      well I have succeeded in getting the word out where others have
                                      failed.
                                      as for the commedian part you fit that role much better.





                                      --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > So not only have you succeeded where all others have failed, you
                                      double as a
                                      > comedian.
                                      > Truly a legend in your own mind.
                                      >
                                      > Kirk
                                      >
                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                      > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 8:55 PM
                                      > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > just stateing the facts.
                                      > thats all.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > > So what is the purpose of this post?
                                      > > Sounds more like network wrestling than engineering.
                                      > > Fish or cut bait.
                                      > >
                                      > > Kirk
                                      > >
                                      > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:30 PM
                                      > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > you are incapable of proving me wrong.
                                      > > this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it.
                                      > > just like all the others.
                                      > > you stick your head in the sand.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "gearjammer123us"
                                      <gearjammer123us@y...>
                                      > > wrote:
                                      > > > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                                      > > > lets do just that.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                                      > > > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                                      > > > we do this continously.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                                      > > > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                                      > > > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                                      > > >
                                      > > > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                                      > > > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > are you game or just full of it.
                                      > > > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                                      > > > then you will quit as all others have.
                                      > > > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                                      > > > prove to have been broken.
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > > > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                                      > > > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the
                                      > rudeness
                                      > > > comes
                                      > > > > automatically.
                                      > > > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't
                                      get
                                      > > out
                                      > > > more
                                      > > > > than you put in.
                                      > > > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                                      > > > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Kirk
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                                      > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Kirk...
                                      > > > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                                      > > > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                                      > > > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                                      > > > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                                      > > > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                                      > > > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology
                                      > makes
                                      > > you
                                      > > > > happy, a
                                      > > > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in
                                      > the
                                      > > > canal
                                      > > > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the
                                      > kintic
                                      > > > > energy of
                                      > > > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel
                                      storage
                                      > > > > system on a
                                      > > > > > grand scale?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Kirk
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                                      > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Kirk...
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                                      > > > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                                      > > > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                                      > > > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                                      > > Gallons/second
                                      > > > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds =
                                      > 897662.337662338
                                      > > GPM
                                      > > > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                                      > > > > > each minute.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are
                                      > rated
                                      > > at
                                      > > > > > 5000 HP
                                      > > > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                                      > > > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                                      > > > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                                      > > > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                                      > > > > > 32 MW input energy...
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                                      > > > energy.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                                      > > > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                                      > > comparison?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here
                                      > to
                                      > > > group
                                      > > > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems
                                      > that
                                      > > > our
                                      > > > > > world faces...
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate
                                      for
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still
                                      > be
                                      > > > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional
                                      > point
                                      > > > > > along the canal.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                                      > > velocity
                                      > > > > of
                                      > > > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                                      > > each
                                      > > > > > second.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                                      > > > > understand
                                      > > > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                                      > > > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion
                                      > that
                                      > > > this
                                      > > > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind
                                      says
                                      > > > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > potential and kinetic...
                                      > > > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of
                                      > the
                                      > > > > canal
                                      > > > > > at
                                      > > > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and
                                      > further
                                      > > > back
                                      > > > > > with
                                      > > > > > > decreasing drop.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm
                                      > gives
                                      > > > drag
                                      > > > > > loss for
                                      > > > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                                      > > > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                                      > > > inches
                                      > > > > > in a mile.
                                      > > > > > > Pretty big canal.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                                      > > estimates
                                      > > > of
                                      > > > > > flow
                                      > > > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                                      > > > > > 1/ref=
                                      > > > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Kirk
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                                      > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > Kirk...
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                                      > > > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                                      > > > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                                      > > > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                                      > > > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                                      > > > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                                      > > > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                                      > > > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through
                                      the
                                      > > > canal
                                      > > > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not
                                      be
                                      > a
                                      > > > > slower
                                      > > > > > > rate of flow.
                                      > > > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the
                                      > walls
                                      > > > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from
                                      > the
                                      > > > wall
                                      > > > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                                      > > > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                                      > > design a
                                      > > > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                                      > > > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill
                                      up
                                      > > and
                                      > > > > fill
                                      > > > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                                      > > very
                                      > > > > > > different. All
                                      > > > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the
                                      > canal
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > > less
                                      > > > > > > slope
                                      > > > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets
                                      the
                                      > > > > needed
                                      > > > > > > slope. If
                                      > > > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely
                                      long--
                                      > > but
                                      > > > > that
                                      > > > > > > isn't the
                                      > > > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables
                                      > based
                                      > > on
                                      > > > > > wall
                                      > > > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just
                                      look
                                      > > it
                                      > > > up
                                      > > > > > > without
                                      > > > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Kirk
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                                      > > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > AMAZING
                                      > > > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must
                                      have
                                      > > > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                                      > > > differential
                                      > > > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                                      > > > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do
                                      this.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                                      > > > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                                      > > > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the
                                      end
                                      > > you
                                      > > > > > > removed
                                      > > > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                                      > > seeks
                                      > > > > its
                                      > > > > > > > own level.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                                      > > > > > > > of the flowing water.
                                      > > > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the
                                      design
                                      > > > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the
                                      bottom
                                      > > and
                                      > > > > > sides
                                      > > > > > > > of the
                                      > > > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force,
                                      > assuming
                                      > > it
                                      > > > > is
                                      > > > > > > > perfectly
                                      > > > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall
                                      > height.
                                      > > > > This
                                      > > > > > > > also means
                                      > > > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end
                                      > and
                                      > > > > enter
                                      > > > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > > high
                                      > > > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps
                                      so
                                      > > 2000
                                      > > > > > miles
                                      > > > > > > > needs 20
                                      > > > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > Kirk
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                      > > > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                      > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                                      > > > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                      > > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc
                                      > pipe
                                      > > > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                                      > > > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two
                                      canals.
                                      > > > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                                      > > > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                                      > > > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                                      > > > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel
                                      down
                                      > > > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a
                                      different
                                      > > > > colored
                                      > > > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move
                                      > all
                                      > > > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water
                                      > will
                                      > > > flow
                                      > > > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take
                                      > the
                                      > > > > water
                                      > > > > > > out
                                      > > > > > > > of
                                      > > > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only
                                      > need
                                      > > to
                                      > > > > > > supply
                                      > > > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from
                                      > the
                                      > > end
                                      > > > > of
                                      > > > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                                      > > dyed
                                      > > > > > water
                                      > > > > > > > > in the pipe.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                                      > > > flowing
                                      > > > > to
                                      > > > > > > > you.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...>
                                      wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                                      > > but I
                                      > > > > > don't
                                      > > > > > > > > understand how
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required
                                      to
                                      > > > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > I missed something?
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                      > > > > > > > >
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                                    • kirk
                                      What word? That the instant you turn the pump on the canal is at velocity instantly with a power gain of what? Complete and utter rubbish. Better stick with
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jul 5, 2002
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        What word? That the instant you turn the pump on the canal is at velocity
                                        instantly with a power gain of what?
                                        Complete and utter rubbish. Better stick with things you are a bit more
                                        familiar with.
                                        ALso your story is obvious fiction. Where did they have megawatt pumps 250
                                        years ago? Powered with what? So Cal Edison?
                                        Don't know what your are smoking but it is time to dry out. You have lost
                                        it.

                                        Kirk

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@...]
                                        Sent: Friday, July 05, 2002 8:41 AM
                                        To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals


                                        well I have succeeded in getting the word out where others have
                                        failed.
                                        as for the commedian part you fit that role much better.





                                        --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > So not only have you succeeded where all others have failed, you
                                        double as a
                                        > comedian.
                                        > Truly a legend in your own mind.
                                        >
                                        > Kirk
                                        >
                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                        > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 8:55 PM
                                        > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > just stateing the facts.
                                        > thats all.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > > So what is the purpose of this post?
                                        > > Sounds more like network wrestling than engineering.
                                        > > Fish or cut bait.
                                        > >
                                        > > Kirk
                                        > >
                                        > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 7:30 PM
                                        > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > you are incapable of proving me wrong.
                                        > > this should be so easy for you yet you avoid it.
                                        > > just like all the others.
                                        > > you stick your head in the sand.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "gearjammer123us"
                                        <gearjammer123us@y...>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > if you would like to discuss the physics then we can.
                                        > > > lets do just that.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 1 we start with 2 full canals.
                                        > > > we dont include the energy required to fill the canals.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 2 we circulate the water in the 2 canals.
                                        > > > we do this continously.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 3 we measure the amount of input energy to circulate the water.
                                        > > > we use the pumps that I supplied links to.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > 4 we measure the kinetic energy of the flowing water.
                                        > > > we use KE=1/2mv^2
                                        > > >
                                        > > > after this we can move on to the ability of the kinetic energy
                                        > > > of the flowing water to produce mechanical energy.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > are you game or just full of it.
                                        > > > more than likely you will agree to do this.
                                        > > > then you will quit as all others have.
                                        > > > fearing your precious laws of physics will
                                        > > > prove to have been broken.
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > > > > Do you want to discuss the physics or be abusive?
                                        > > > > I suppose when you are defending a flawed hypothesis the
                                        > rudeness
                                        > > > comes
                                        > > > > automatically.
                                        > > > > The circulating energy is provided externally and you can't
                                        get
                                        > > out
                                        > > > more
                                        > > > > than you put in.
                                        > > > > Forget strawman arguments re suns and winds.
                                        > > > > Thinking otherwise is bovine scatology.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Kirk
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 3:37 PM
                                        > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Kirk...
                                        > > > > Where did you get your inteligence.. wallmart?
                                        > > > > that is like saying that you need to first build a sun
                                        > > > > and then wait for it to cause wind.
                                        > > > > and then the total amount of energy you can get from the wind
                                        > > > > is the amount you put in building the sun...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > in other words simplt put... bullcrap.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > > > > > Very simple. Start with an empty canal.
                                        > > > > > Each second you accelerate or move, whatever terminology
                                        > makes
                                        > > you
                                        > > > > happy, a
                                        > > > > > certain mass into the canal, When it is full the energy in
                                        > the
                                        > > > canal
                                        > > > > > represents the total time the pump ran. It will equal the
                                        > kintic
                                        > > > > energy of
                                        > > > > > the total canal less drag. No free energy. A flywheel
                                        storage
                                        > > > > system on a
                                        > > > > > grand scale?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Kirk
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 2:30 PM
                                        > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Kirk...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > if the water is being pumped out """ continously """
                                        > > > > > the 2 ft slug of water is being pumped out every second...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > 50 ft wide X 20 ft deep = 1000 cu ft
                                        > > > > > 1000 cu ft X 2 = 2000 cu ft per second.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > 2000 cu ft X 1728 = 3456000. cu inches
                                        > > > > > 3456000.cu in / 231 ( 1 gallon ) = 14961.038961039
                                        > > Gallons/second
                                        > > > > > 14961.038961039 Gallons/second X 60 seconds =
                                        > 897662.337662338
                                        > > GPM
                                        > > > > > 897,662 Gallons per minute are being removed from the canal
                                        > > > > > each minute.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > the 800,000 GPM pumps I gave a link to for reference are
                                        > rated
                                        > > at
                                        > > > > > 5000 HP
                                        > > > > > this converts to 3.728499 MW of input energy for each pump.
                                        > > > > > we are pumping 897,000 GPM not 800,000 GPM
                                        > > > > > so there would be more energy required than the 5000 HP
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > so I gave you 4MW each or 8 MW
                                        > > > > > I now give you 8 MW each or 4 of these pumps.
                                        > > > > > 32 MW input energy...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > the kinetic energy of the two flows of water is 54,000 MW of
                                        > > > energy.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > that is 54,000 MW ie thousand not 54MW
                                        > > > > > even if it were 54 MW there would still be a great increase.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > what I ask is so hard to understand about this simple
                                        > > comparison?
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > are we here simply to flaunt our inteligence or are we here
                                        > to
                                        > > > group
                                        > > > > > together to find inteligent answers to the energy problems
                                        > that
                                        > > > our
                                        > > > > > world faces...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > even if the canal were made slightly larger to compensate
                                        for
                                        > > the
                                        > > > > > resistance from canal wall/water the flow volume would still
                                        > be
                                        > > > > > equivalent to 2000 cu ft per second at any cross sectional
                                        > point
                                        > > > > > along the canal.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > if the canal were slightly larger there would be a slower
                                        > > velocity
                                        > > > > of
                                        > > > > > fluid yet the same volume of fluid would flow past any point
                                        > > each
                                        > > > > > second.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > it is the simplicity of this example that your brain cannot
                                        > > > > understand
                                        > > > > > .... it is not complicated enought for you....
                                        > > > > > you may have attended a college that implanted the notion
                                        > that
                                        > > > this
                                        > > > > > is impossible and so if your eyes see green and your mind
                                        says
                                        > > > > > this is impossible you say it can not be.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > there are only two types of energy in physics...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > potential and kinetic...
                                        > > > > > yet the energy from each is the same.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > True-- but the head on the 2 foot section is the depth of
                                        > the
                                        > > > > canal
                                        > > > > > at
                                        > > > > > > first. As it fills the drop is propagated further and
                                        > further
                                        > > > back
                                        > > > > > with
                                        > > > > > > decreasing drop.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > http://www.ncpi.org/EngineeringManual/eng_manual02.htm
                                        > gives
                                        > > > drag
                                        > > > > > loss for
                                        > > > > > > sewer pipe. Pretty small canal.
                                        > > > > > > The Mississippi has sections where the drop is less than 3
                                        > > > inches
                                        > > > > > in a mile.
                                        > > > > > > Pretty big canal.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > The book that has it all--the tables allow for quick
                                        > > estimates
                                        > > > of
                                        > > > > > flow
                                        > > > > > > characteristics without having to hunt for the calculator.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0070072477/qid=1025811837/sr=1-
                                        > > > > > 1/ref=
                                        > > > > > > sr_1_1/102-1988951-9596912
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Kirk
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 10:05 AM
                                        > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Kirk...
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > what happens at a waterfall?
                                        > > > > > > if a 2 foot section of water is removed.
                                        > > > > > > and " WATER DOES NOT STRETCH "
                                        > > > > > > then you can count on that 2 foot section filling up
                                        > > > > > > again in a extremely short time.
                                        > > > > > > in fact you would never see a hole there where you took
                                        > > > > > > the water out you wouldnt even notice much difference.
                                        > > > > > > there might be a faster flow rate than 2 ft/sec through
                                        the
                                        > > > canal
                                        > > > > > > because of the canal wall resistance but there would not
                                        be
                                        > a
                                        > > > > slower
                                        > > > > > > rate of flow.
                                        > > > > > > because the wall friction only holds water close to the
                                        > walls
                                        > > > > > > and it only holds a single layer and each layer away from
                                        > the
                                        > > > wall
                                        > > > > > > has less and less flow restriction.
                                        > > > > > > if you find that the flow restriction is too great just
                                        > > design a
                                        > > > > > > larger canal dont throw away the idea.
                                        > > > > > > you can bet your ass that that 2 foot section would fill
                                        up
                                        > > and
                                        > > > > fill
                                        > > > > > > up faster than you could count to 2.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > A canal is much smaller and the ratio of mass to wall is
                                        > > very
                                        > > > > > > different. All
                                        > > > > > > > the mass is accelerated by gravity so the larger the
                                        > canal
                                        > > the
                                        > > > > > less
                                        > > > > > > slope
                                        > > > > > > > needed all other things being equal. The velocity sets
                                        the
                                        > > > > needed
                                        > > > > > > slope. If
                                        > > > > > > > it can be infinitely slow then it can be infinitely
                                        long--
                                        > > but
                                        > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > isn't the
                                        > > > > > > > real world. The data is published in hydraulic tables
                                        > based
                                        > > on
                                        > > > > > wall
                                        > > > > > > > roughness which of course affects drag. You can just
                                        look
                                        > > it
                                        > > > up
                                        > > > > > > without
                                        > > > > > > > calculating it if you want.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Kirk
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, July 04, 2002 9:21 AM
                                        > > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > AMAZING
                                        > > > > > > > so when the 1000 mile mississippi river flows it must
                                        have
                                        > > > > > > > a wall height of 10 miles correct?
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > fact is it doesnt even have a wall height or height
                                        > > > differential
                                        > > > > > > > over 50 feet much less 10 miles.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > are there any 10 mile high mountains.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > you are asumming that water will not seek its own level.
                                        > > > > > > > and that water must have a height differential to do
                                        this.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > if the 2000 mile long canal were perfectly level.
                                        > > > > > > > and its cross sectional area were 50 ft X 20 ft
                                        > > > > > > > and you removed a section from one end 2 feet in lenght.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > all of the water in that canal would move towards the
                                        end
                                        > > you
                                        > > > > > > removed
                                        > > > > > > > the 2 ft section from.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > one of the first things you learn about water is that it
                                        > > seeks
                                        > > > > its
                                        > > > > > > > own level.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > your required 20 mile wall height is null.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > the wall resistance only affects a miniscule inch or two
                                        > > > > > > > of the flowing water.
                                        > > > > > > > and if this miniscule amount is calculated into the
                                        design
                                        > > > > > > > this resistance can be null.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > > 2000 miles won't work. The water has drag on the
                                        bottom
                                        > > and
                                        > > > > > sides
                                        > > > > > > > of the
                                        > > > > > > > > canal. The effective head to provide this force,
                                        > assuming
                                        > > it
                                        > > > > is
                                        > > > > > > > perfectly
                                        > > > > > > > > level for 2000 miles, is limited by the canal wall
                                        > height.
                                        > > > > This
                                        > > > > > > > also means
                                        > > > > > > > > when you want to return you have to leave the low end
                                        > and
                                        > > > > enter
                                        > > > > > > the
                                        > > > > > > > high
                                        > > > > > > > > end. You probably need a 1 in 100 grade to keep 2fps
                                        so
                                        > > 2000
                                        > > > > > miles
                                        > > > > > > > needs 20
                                        > > > > > > > > miles of head. Pretty tall canal walls.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Kirk
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                                        > > > > > > > > From: gearjammer123us [mailto:gearjammer123us@y...]
                                        > > > > > > > > Sent: Wednesday, July 03, 2002 8:58 PM
                                        > > > > > > > > To: AMBIENTENERGY@y...
                                        > > > > > > > > Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Canals
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > hello boyd didnt know you had a group too.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > well first if you were to assemble a 1000 ft long pvc
                                        > pipe
                                        > > > > > > > > then cut it down the middle.
                                        > > > > > > > > so that you could have something resembling two
                                        canals.
                                        > > > > > > > > place them side by side or paralelle to each other.
                                        > > > > > > > > and fill them both with water.
                                        > > > > > > > > place some red dye in one and blue dye in the other
                                        > > > > > > > > for reference purposes.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > now get a friend to help you and each of you kneel
                                        down
                                        > > > > > > > > at one end of the model canals.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > if each of you lift one ounce of water from a
                                        different
                                        > > > > colored
                                        > > > > > > > > water and place it in the other color water side.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > you will move all of the water in the model canals.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > if you have a pump doing this you can continously move
                                        > all
                                        > > > > > > > > the water in the canals.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > it does not matter how long the canals are the water
                                        > will
                                        > > > flow
                                        > > > > > > > > from the end you put the water in to the end you take
                                        > the
                                        > > > > water
                                        > > > > > > out
                                        > > > > > > > of
                                        > > > > > > > > in each of the half pipes...
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > so if this canal were 2000 miles long you would only
                                        > need
                                        > > to
                                        > > > > > > supply
                                        > > > > > > > > the amount of energy required to lift the water from
                                        > the
                                        > > end
                                        > > > > of
                                        > > > > > > the
                                        > > > > > > > > red dyed water in the pipe to the begining of the blue
                                        > > dyed
                                        > > > > > water
                                        > > > > > > > > in the pipe.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > there would be water flowing to your friend and water
                                        > > > flowing
                                        > > > > to
                                        > > > > > > > you.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > you could take energy from this flow of water.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Boyd Cantrell" <bmc@p...>
                                        wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > > > I looked at the canal Map and think it is fantastic,
                                        > > but I
                                        > > > > > don't
                                        > > > > > > > > understand how
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > "the same exact amount of energy would be required
                                        to
                                        > > > > > > > > > transport cargo or people no matter the distance."
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > I missed something?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
                                        > (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > > > > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
                                        > (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > > > > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
                                        (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > > > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system
                                        (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > > > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ---
                                        > > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        > 6/13/2002
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ---
                                        > > > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        6/13/2002
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > ---
                                        > > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date:
                                        6/13/2002
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ---
                                        > > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
                                        > >
                                        > > ---
                                        > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@y...
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---
                                        > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
                                        >
                                        > ---
                                        > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        > Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002



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                                        ---
                                        Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002

                                        ---
                                        Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                        Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                        Version: 6.0.371 / Virus Database: 206 - Release Date: 6/13/2002
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