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Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric

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  • jwdatwork
    Hi Folks! Details to design your own Minto Wonderwheel; http://www.keelynet.com/minto/minto2.htm ... history ... the July
    Message 1 of 25 , Jan 4, 2002
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      Hi Folks!

      Details to design your own Minto Wonderwheel;

      http://www.keelynet.com/minto/minto2.htm

      --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Ronald W. Frazier" <energylist@c...>
      wrote:
      > Hello all,
      >
      > Minto
      >
      > I'm new to the list. Glad I found you guys. I see by the archive
      history
      > that the list is fairly new. I've only had a chance to scan over
      the July
    • kirk
      That is the best page I have ever seen on the Minto wheel. However, I have penciled what it takes for just a half kilowatt unit and the wheel becomes a
      Message 2 of 25 , Jan 5, 2002
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        That is the best page I have ever seen on the Minto wheel.
        However, I have penciled what it takes for just a half kilowatt unit and the
        wheel becomes a monster. The flow rate for any resonable power is large and
        small pipe won't do. Also the pipe volume has to be a small percentage of
        the tank volume for any efficiency and there are other problems too.

        If you want a conversation piece in the back yard go for it but don't hope
        for much else.

        Kirk

        -----Original Message-----
        From: jwdatwork [mailto:jwdatwork@...]
        Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 12:48 AM
        To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric


        Hi Folks!

        Details to design your own Minto Wonderwheel;

        http://www.keelynet.com/minto/minto2.htm

        --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Ronald W. Frazier" <energylist@c...>
        wrote:
        > Hello all,
        >
        > Minto
        >
        > I'm new to the list. Glad I found you guys. I see by the archive
        history
        > that the list is fairly new. I've only had a chance to scan over
        the July




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      • nogardthe1
        Mother Earth News made one years back {a 22 footer} that put out enuf power ta lift a guy {Steve Burkholder I believe it was} clean off the ground when he
        Message 3 of 25 , Jan 7, 2002
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          Mother Earth News made one years back {a 22 footer} that put out
          enuf power ta lift a guy {Steve Burkholder I believe it was} clean
          off the ground when he tryed to stop it. If that is not enuf power
          for ya then I suggest ya get a big shaft and mount several wheels on
          it. That should keep your flow rates in line.
          The Dragon


          --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
          > That is the best page I have ever seen on the Minto wheel.
          > However, I have penciled what it takes for just a half kilowatt
          unit and the
          > wheel becomes a monster. The flow rate for any resonable power is
          large and
          > small pipe won't do. Also the pipe volume has to be a small
          percentage of
          > the tank volume for any efficiency and there are other problems too.
          >
          > If you want a conversation piece in the back yard go for it but
          don't hope
          > for much else.
          >
          > Kirk
        • kirk
          The materials to build are not free. Time isn t free. The heat to drive it could be better spent. It just doesn t pencil. Torque says nothing about power. Time
          Message 4 of 25 , Jan 7, 2002
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            The materials to build are not free. Time isn't free.
            The heat to drive it could be better spent.
            It just doesn't pencil.

            Torque says nothing about power. Time is needed as well.
            550 foot pounds per minute is not a horsepower.
            I can lift you off the ground with the motor in an electric clock.
            Obviously zip power but in enough time will do the lift.

            Don't take my word for it. Pencil it. It isn't rocket science.
            The Minto wheel is a conversation piece. Nothing more.

            Kirk

            -----Original Message-----
            From: nogardthe1 [mailto:nogardthe1@...]
            Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:02 PM
            To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric


            Mother Earth News made one years back {a 22 footer} that put out
            enuf power ta lift a guy {Steve Burkholder I believe it was} clean
            off the ground when he tryed to stop it. If that is not enuf power
            for ya then I suggest ya get a big shaft and mount several wheels on
            it. That should keep your flow rates in line.
            The Dragon


            --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "kirk" <kirk@3...> wrote:
            > That is the best page I have ever seen on the Minto wheel.
            > However, I have penciled what it takes for just a half kilowatt
            unit and the
            > wheel becomes a monster. The flow rate for any resonable power is
            large and
            > small pipe won't do. Also the pipe volume has to be a small
            percentage of
            > the tank volume for any efficiency and there are other problems too.
            >
            > If you want a conversation piece in the back yard go for it but
            don't hope
            > for much else.
            >
            > Kirk




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          • nogardthe dragon
            True, 550 foot pounds per minute isn t a lot of power, but neither is the 50 watts you get from a PV panel. But the fact that you can make that power outa a
            Message 5 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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              True, 550 foot pounds per minute isn't a lot of power,
              but neither is the 50 watts you get from a PV panel.
              But the fact that you can make that power outa a 'low
              grade' heat source is something note-able.
              The argument of time and materials costing $, also
              applies to PV panels as well as solar heating panels.
              Yet we know that they are 'worth it' simply because
              the energy is free and their upkeep is minimal. The
              same can be said for the Minto wheel.
              The Minto wheel does have the advantage of being
              able to be made out of readily available materials as
              opposed to a PV panel or most other things short of a
              Stirling engine. It is even self starting which is
              more than can be said for an LTD Stirling engine.
              Just as; given enuf time, your clock motor winch
              can lift me off the ground. Given enuf time; a Minto
              wheel should be able to pay for itself as well, after
              that it is all good.... except for a squirt of oil now
              and again.
              The Dragon
              PS: Wally Minto ran his 'demo' 5ft. wheel off a small
              solar panel and even using mirrors. Too bad we don't
              have 'the numbers' telling us how much power the wheel
              produced in those configurations. It would be
              interesting to compare the power output on a sq.foot
              by sq.foot basis, against a PV panel.

              PSS: It was postulated once that the wheel could be
              run simply by setting it in the sun with the upper
              half of the wheel shaded. If this would work, would
              this not make it a truly AMBIENT ENERGY device?

              > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:44:07 -0700
              > From: "kirk" <kirk@...>
              > Subject: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric
              >
              > The materials to build are not free. Time isn't
              > free.
              > The heat to drive it could be better spent.
              > It just doesn't pencil.
              >
              > Torque says nothing about power. Time is needed as
              > well.
              > 550 foot pounds per minute is not a horsepower.
              > I can lift you off the ground with the motor in an
              > electric clock.
              > Obviously zip power but in enough time will do the
              > lift.
              >
              > Don't take my word for it. Pencil it. It isn't
              > rocket science.
              > The Minto wheel is a conversation piece. Nothing
              > more.
              >
              > Kirk
              >


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            • kirk
              ... interesting to compare the power output on a sq.foot by sq.foot basis, against a PV panel. You can calculate it. The Minto wheel will NOT pay for itself.
              Message 6 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                >It would be
                interesting to compare the power output on a sq.foot
                by sq.foot basis, against a PV panel.

                You can calculate it.
                The Minto wheel will NOT pay for itself.
                That is why it was given away.

                Build a 100 watt wheel and solar collector to drive it.
                You will see what I mean.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: nogardthe dragon [mailto:nogardthe1@...]
                Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 10:31 AM
                To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric


                True, 550 foot pounds per minute isn't a lot of power,
                but neither is the 50 watts you get from a PV panel.
                But the fact that you can make that power outa a 'low
                grade' heat source is something note-able.
                The argument of time and materials costing $, also
                applies to PV panels as well as solar heating panels.
                Yet we know that they are 'worth it' simply because
                the energy is free and their upkeep is minimal. The
                same can be said for the Minto wheel.
                The Minto wheel does have the advantage of being
                able to be made out of readily available materials as
                opposed to a PV panel or most other things short of a
                Stirling engine. It is even self starting which is
                more than can be said for an LTD Stirling engine.
                Just as; given enuf time, your clock motor winch
                can lift me off the ground. Given enuf time; a Minto
                wheel should be able to pay for itself as well, after
                that it is all good.... except for a squirt of oil now
                and again.
                The Dragon
                PS: Wally Minto ran his 'demo' 5ft. wheel off a small
                solar panel and even using mirrors. Too bad we don't
                have 'the numbers' telling us how much power the wheel
                produced in those configurations. It would be
                interesting to compare the power output on a sq.foot
                by sq.foot basis, against a PV panel.

                PSS: It was postulated once that the wheel could be
                run simply by setting it in the sun with the upper
                half of the wheel shaded. If this would work, would
                this not make it a truly AMBIENT ENERGY device?

                > Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2002 18:44:07 -0700
                > From: "kirk" <kirk@...>
                > Subject: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric
                >
                > The materials to build are not free. Time isn't
                > free.
                > The heat to drive it could be better spent.
                > It just doesn't pencil.
                >
                > Torque says nothing about power. Time is needed as
                > well.
                > 550 foot pounds per minute is not a horsepower.
                > I can lift you off the ground with the motor in an
                > electric clock.
                > Obviously zip power but in enough time will do the
                > lift.
                >
                > Don't take my word for it. Pencil it. It isn't
                > rocket science.
                > The Minto wheel is a conversation piece. Nothing
                > more.
                >
                > Kirk
                >


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              • Charles Ford
                ... Last time I looked Si solar PV arrays were going for about $6.40/W Efficiency pushing 15% (range 13.5% to 14.7%) These Si PVs can tolerate up to about 5X
                Message 7 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                  --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                  > >It would be
                  > interesting to compare the power output on a sq.foot
                  > by sq.foot basis, against a PV panel.
                  >
                  > You can calculate it.
                  > The Minto wheel will NOT pay for itself.
                  > That is why it was given away.
                  >
                  > Build a 100 watt wheel and solar collector to drive it.
                  > You will see what I mean.
                  >

                  Last time I looked Si solar PV arrays were going for about
                  $6.40/W Efficiency pushing 15% (range 13.5% to 14.7%)

                  These Si PVs can tolerate up to about 5X solar exposure... So
                  if you are interested in making a basic tracker and using solar

                  concentrators you can get out for cheap (will still only
                  extract an average of about 13W/m^2

                  But even then the Solar equipment is barely able to make costs
                  over its life span.

                  I have been working with a local shop that does nationwide
                  legacy computer servicing. These folks are GREAT and making
                  things that
                  don't work any more work again good as new. They want to set
                  up a solar array recycling/referbishing center here in Fort
                  Worth.

                  Anybody know where I can get my hands on the old week and dead
                  arrays?





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                • kirk
                  The goo they encapsulate the cells with that bonds to the glass is what turns brown. I am told it is not UV stable. Becomes a bigger problem with
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                    The goo they encapsulate the cells with that bonds to the glass is what
                    turns brown. I am told it is not UV stable.
                    Becomes a bigger problem with concentrators.

                    You dropped a zero. You should see about 130 watts/m^2

                    If you shop you can buy for less than $5 a watt and if you got a dealership
                    maybe $4 a watt?

                    I thought flip the panel over and use 2 reflectors below. No hail damage can
                    be done to panel that way.
                    Maybe put glass in front of panel for uv filtering.
                    Lose 10-15% of the light but since you are concentrating anyway and
                    reflector is cheaper than panel it might be OK to do.
                    Leave a space between back of panel and protective cover. Colder the panel
                    the more the output.

                    Kirk

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:20 PM
                    To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric



                    --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                    > >It would be
                    > interesting to compare the power output on a sq.foot
                    > by sq.foot basis, against a PV panel.
                    >
                    > You can calculate it.
                    > The Minto wheel will NOT pay for itself.
                    > That is why it was given away.
                    >
                    > Build a 100 watt wheel and solar collector to drive it.
                    > You will see what I mean.
                    >

                    Last time I looked Si solar PV arrays were going for about
                    $6.40/W Efficiency pushing 15% (range 13.5% to 14.7%)

                    These Si PVs can tolerate up to about 5X solar exposure... So
                    if you are interested in making a basic tracker and using solar

                    concentrators you can get out for cheap (will still only
                    extract an average of about 13W/m^2

                    But even then the Solar equipment is barely able to make costs
                    over its life span.

                    I have been working with a local shop that does nationwide
                    legacy computer servicing. These folks are GREAT and making
                    things that
                    don't work any more work again good as new. They want to set
                    up a solar array recycling/referbishing center here in Fort
                    Worth.

                    Anybody know where I can get my hands on the old week and dead
                    arrays?





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                  • Charles Ford
                    ... Kirk: No goo... These are chips __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE video emails in Yahoo! Mail!
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                      --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                      > The goo they encapsulate the cells with that bonds to the
                      > glass is what
                      > turns brown. I am told it is not UV stable.
                      > Becomes a bigger problem with concentrators.
                      >

                      Kirk:

                      No goo... These are chips


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                    • kirk
                      The wafer slices are in a transparent encapsulant covered with glass or transparent plastic. You said panel I believe. ... From: Charles Ford
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                        The wafer slices are in a transparent encapsulant covered with glass or
                        transparent plastic.
                        You said panel I believe.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                        Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 1:48 PM
                        To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric



                        --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                        > The goo they encapsulate the cells with that bonds to the
                        > glass is what
                        > turns brown. I am told it is not UV stable.
                        > Becomes a bigger problem with concentrators.
                        >

                        Kirk:

                        No goo... These are chips


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                      • Charles Ford
                        At 04:21 PM 1/8/02 -0700, you wrote: The wafer slices are in a transparent encapsulant covered with glass or transparent plastic. You said panel I believe.
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                          At 04:21 PM 1/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
                          >The wafer slices are in a transparent encapsulant covered with glass or
                          >transparent plastic.
                          >You said panel I believe.


                          Oh... I would have meant to say array...

                          Anyway. The amorphous glass type do actually roast if you overexpose
                          them. The Si chips are OK at 2X and require heat sinks any higher then that..

                          I have an experimental unit. It is an aluminum troth that offers 4X
                          exposure if properly aligned. You lay the troth west to east and there is
                          only one azimuth adjustment. It is water cooled (offering some extra
                          energy which I have not figured out how to use yet. It adjusts it position
                          about every three or four days. There is an added bonus in that the chips
                          face down into the troth protecting them from the sometimes violent Texas
                          Weather. (its hail proof)






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                        • kirk
                          If the concentration is not too much that sounds great. A study of reflectors should come up with something that reflects the useful wavelengths well and is a
                          Message 12 of 25 , Jan 8, 2002
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                            If the concentration is not too much that sounds great. A study of
                            reflectors should come up with something that reflects the useful
                            wavelengths well and is a poor reflector of UV.


                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                            Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:27 PM
                            To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric


                            At 04:21 PM 1/8/02 -0700, you wrote:
                            >The wafer slices are in a transparent encapsulant covered with glass or
                            >transparent plastic.
                            >You said panel I believe.


                            Oh... I would have meant to say array...

                            Anyway. The amorphous glass type do actually roast if you overexpose
                            them. The Si chips are OK at 2X and require heat sinks any higher then
                            that..

                            I have an experimental unit. It is an aluminum troth that offers 4X
                            exposure if properly aligned. You lay the troth west to east and there is
                            only one azimuth adjustment. It is water cooled (offering some extra
                            energy which I have not figured out how to use yet. It adjusts it position
                            about every three or four days. There is an added bonus in that the chips
                            face down into the troth protecting them from the sometimes violent Texas
                            Weather. (its hail proof)





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                          • Charles Ford
                            ... I would definitely benefit from that. I choose aluminum because it was cheap and easy to work. In the experiment I used foil stretched between 1/8 inch
                            Message 13 of 25 , Jan 9, 2002
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                              --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                              > If the concentration is not too much that sounds great. A
                              > study of
                              > reflectors should come up with something that reflects the
                              > useful
                              > wavelengths well and is a poor reflector of UV.
                              >
                              >

                              I would definitely benefit from that. I choose aluminum
                              because it was cheap and easy to work. In the experiment I used
                              foil stretched
                              between 1/8 inch cold rolled shafts. The chips are pressed to
                              a silk insulator against a Cu plate that is soldered to 3 Cu
                              tubes for cooling.
                              The tubes are housed inside an I-beam fence post which also
                              mounts the reflector. The positioner is an electric window
                              mech.

                              Just call me McGyver. :-)

                              Anyhow this unit produces about 500W (high noon) and continues
                              to produce an extra 1.3W during the night (I think that is
                              City noise)

                              Although the reflectors are foil I could use something rigid on
                              a final design... or maybe not. If we have a hail storm my
                              chips are
                              protected and the hail will just puncture the foil.

                              Any way knowing the spectral reflectivity of several materials
                              would benefit. I could choose the best materials.




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                            • kirk
                              ... A reference book for physicists, optical engineers--something like that. Not every day stuff. Public library up here is devoid of useful books. Just
                              Message 14 of 25 , Jan 9, 2002
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                                >Any way knowing the spectral reflectivity of several materials
                                >would benefit. I could choose the best materials.

                                A reference book for physicists, optical engineers--something like that.
                                Not every day stuff. Public library up here is devoid of useful books.
                                Just romance fantasies and politically correct social engineering propaganda
                                such as Heather has 2 Mommies.

                                I don't know why a good library isn't online.
                                So much for our high civilization.

                                Kirk

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                                Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 9:01 AM
                                To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] Re: RE: Re: Minto / Solar / Thermoelectric



                                --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                                > If the concentration is not too much that sounds great. A
                                > study of
                                > reflectors should come up with something that reflects the
                                > useful
                                > wavelengths well and is a poor reflector of UV.
                                >
                                >

                                I would definitely benefit from that. I choose aluminum
                                because it was cheap and easy to work. In the experiment I used
                                foil stretched
                                between 1/8 inch cold rolled shafts. The chips are pressed to
                                a silk insulator against a Cu plate that is soldered to 3 Cu
                                tubes for cooling.
                                The tubes are housed inside an I-beam fence post which also
                                mounts the reflector. The positioner is an electric window
                                mech.

                                Just call me McGyver. :-)

                                Anyhow this unit produces about 500W (high noon) and continues
                                to produce an extra 1.3W during the night (I think that is
                                City noise)

                                Although the reflectors are foil I could use something rigid on
                                a final design... or maybe not. If we have a hail storm my
                                chips are
                                protected and the hail will just puncture the foil.

                                Any way knowing the spectral reflectivity of several materials
                                would benefit. I could choose the best materials.




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                              • Charles Ford
                                ... Hmmm... Politically correct but morally depraved.... Probably if there is a good online librarry it would be the same case.... I will check the Fort
                                Message 15 of 25 , Jan 9, 2002
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                                  --- kirk <kirk@...> wrote:
                                  > >Any way knowing the spectral reflectivity of several
                                  > materials
                                  > >would benefit. I could choose the best materials.
                                  >
                                  > A reference book for physicists, optical engineers--something
                                  > like that.
                                  > Not every day stuff. Public library up here is devoid of
                                  > useful books.
                                  > Just romance fantasies and politically correct social
                                  > engineering propaganda
                                  > such as Heather has 2 Mommies.
                                  >
                                  > I don't know why a good library isn't online.
                                  > So much for our high civilization.
                                  >
                                  > Kirk
                                  >

                                  Hmmm... Politically correct but morally depraved....

                                  Probably if there is a "good" online librarry it would be the
                                  same case....

                                  I will check the Fort Worth librarry this weekend... Most
                                  folks here say "If yall don like it go home"
                                  IF thye persist then they get...

                                  "Get a gun we haz one o those politically correct yankee
                                  nazzies ta hunt down
                                  Hell hust grab mine there in the back winder. Ya don't need no
                                  shells, it's loaded
                                  and ya don't need no keys its unlocked"






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