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How to do it

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  • Robert Lerwill
    Before I start, can I say as a new member of this group that I am not highly educated, I have just done a lot of thinking and read a lot of books. What follows
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 9, 2001
      Before I start, can I say as a new member of this group that I am not
      highly educated, I have just done a lot of thinking and read a lot of
      books. What follows is a supplemented copy of a posting to the
      free-energy group run by Eric Krieg. There is another posting on that
      site relating to the theory behind what follows if you wish to look it
      up.

      There are several machines available that can convert heat at ambient
      temperature into mechanical work. However all of the exisiting ones rely
      on the small changes that occur in temperature: between day and night,
      mountains and plains, sea and land, latitude or season. In other words,
      weather. If it wasn't for weather, you would never get water existing in
      an atmosphere at less than 100% humidity. The dipping bird does not work
      unless you have water in an atmosphere of less than 100% humidity.
      Another example of this is the "Atmos" clock which uses small
      temperature variations to wind up a spring. They are manufactured by the
      Swiss firm Jaeger. (My brother has one of these clock which has been
      working continuously now for 30 years!).

      While there is no doubt that these machines work and do convert heat at
      ambient heat into mechanical work, It is very difficult to get one of
      these machines to generate significant amounts of power. The reason is
      that the temperature differences available are small. The second law of
      thermodynamics says that the efficiency of any heat engine is limited to
      (Tmax-Tmin)/Tmax (all temperatures in degrees Kelvin). This efficiency
      limit is called the Carnot efficiency. The expression of the 2nd law
      that forbids a higher efficiency is called the Kelvin expression of the
      2nd law of thermodynamics. If we could find a way around the 2nd law, we
      could do better, but surely it would be a good idea to know more about
      the 2nd law before attempting to find a way around it.

      Now let us suppose we have a machine that causes a mass of material at
      ambient temperature and splits it into half at high temperature and half
      at low temperature. No energy would be created. The 1st law of
      thermodynamics (which says that energy cannot be either created or
      destroyed) would not be violated and we would then have the basis of a
      way of creating large amounts of energy from heat at ambient
      temperature. Unfortunately there is another expression of the 2nd law of
      thermodynamics called the Clausius expression which says such a machine
      is impossible. This says that "No process is possible in which the sole
      result is the transfer of of energy from a cooler body to a hotter one".

      The common notion of a perpetual motion machine is a machine that
      creates something out of nothing. In scientific terms, this is called a
      perpetual mobile of the first kind; because it would break the 1st law
      of thermodynamics. What this group was set up to develop is not this
      kind of folly. What Boyd proposes is not that kind of perpetual motion
      machine. It is unfortunate that the scientific name for what we are
      about is "a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind": because it would violate
      the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is unfortuante because if there really
      reasons why such a machine cannot work, they have nothing to do with the
      reaosns why the first kind of machine will not work. Nevertheless the
      scientific name tars us with the same brush by using a similar name.

      The machine described below is intended to generate a spontaneous
      temperature difference between two objects. No energy input is required
      other than heat at ambient temperature. It violates the second law. That
      is the tricky bit and so only that part is described. To turn this heat
      difference into usable energy would require one of many available heat
      engines. The exact type is not important but to try and keep the
      "machine" free of moving parts, I would suggest a semiconductor
      thermocouple such as a Peltier device working in reverse. The whole
      device would reduce the temperature of its surroundings once the heat
      engine was added and supplying power. Some of the heat into work and so
      the 1st law would not be violated.

      The device consists of two plates, separated by a vacuum and in thermal
      equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is achieved when the power of heat
      radiated is equal to the power of heat absorbed. Since the process of
      photon absorption is the exact reverse of the process of photon
      emission, the ability of a surface to radiate heat is exactly matched by
      its ability to absorb heat at the same wavelength. Thus thermal
      equilibrium is achieved when the two plates are at the same temperature:
      irrespective of the surface properties of the plates.

      One of the plates, plate A, is covered with a material that emits (and
      absorbs) far infra-red radiation at about 10um: the peak wavelength of
      black-body radiation at 20 degrees Celsius. It is reflective at shorter
      wavelengths. The other plate, plate B, has a surface wich absorbs (and
      emits) at 5um, the peak wavelength for black body radiation at about 300
      degrees Celsius. It is reflective at longer wavelengths. This
      arrangement means that there is actually very little radiative transfer
      of heat between the two plates. Plate A radiates heat at a rate of about
      20 Watts per square metre, but most of that radiation is reflected by
      plate B. Nevertheless, some heat must be transferred and thermal
      equilibrium is reached with the plates at the same temperature.

      Now comes the clever bit. A material is placed between the two plates
      that has the same property as that used for laser frequency doublers. It
      distorts the electromagnetic radiation so that some of the light is
      up-converted to twice the frequency: half the wavelength. This
      particular material is active at a wavelength of 10um, some of which it
      converts to 5um.

      Some of the heat radiated from plate A is converted by the material to a
      wavelength of 5um. This heat falls upon plate B and is completely
      absorbed. however this material does not do the same in reverse. it does
      not convert the 5um radiation emitted from plate B into 10um on the
      return journey. (It is impossible for distortion to create harmonics at
      a lower frequency.) In short, it is the kind of microscopic process
      referred to in my earlier email that is not time symmetrical.
      Consequently very little heat returns from plate B onto plate A.

      Thermal equilibrium is still reached. however it can now only be reached
      when the two plates are at different temperatures. Some heat will leak
      back from plate B to plate A, however not as much as reaches plate B
      from plate A.

      Possible flaws:

      Such materials only work with coherent light.
      Such materials only work at the high light intensities found at the
      output of lasers.
      Such materials do not work at the same colour temperatuere as the light
      they convert.

      I would welcome any comments. I am particularly interested in anyone who
      work with lasers or optics and might know something about these light
      frequency doubling materials and whether or not any of the possible
      flaws I outlined above are in fact the case. I am finding it difficult
      to track this information down.

      Bob Lerwill
    • hustierhof@yahoo.de
      Hello Bob, despite the fact, that I am no specialist in the realm of laser technology, your idea (A material is placed between the two plates that has the same
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 11, 2001
        Hello Bob,

        despite the fact, that I am no specialist in the realm of laser
        technology, your idea (A material is placed between the two plates
        that has the same property as that used for laser
        frequency doublers.) sounds interesting at least for a
        experiment....so, you should TRY IT, so we all may learn by that.
        But I think, that radiation in the two plates you described, will be
        very very low in its ambient condition.

        Hubert

        --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., Robert Lerwill <bob.mo@v...> wrote:
        > Before I start, can I say as a new member of this group that I am
        not
        > highly educated, I have just done a lot of thinking and read a lot
        of
        > books. What follows is a supplemented copy of a posting to the
        > free-energy group run by Eric Krieg. There is another posting on
        that
        > site relating to the theory behind what follows if you wish to look
        it
        > up.
        >
        > There are several machines available that can convert heat at
        ambient
        > temperature into mechanical work. However all of the exisiting ones
        rely
        > on the small changes that occur in temperature: between day and
        night,
        > mountains and plains, sea and land, latitude or season. In other
        words,
        > weather. If it wasn't for weather, you would never get water
        existing in
        > an atmosphere at less than 100% humidity. The dipping bird does not
        work
        > unless you have water in an atmosphere of less than 100% humidity.
        > Another example of this is the "Atmos" clock which uses small
        > temperature variations to wind up a spring. They are manufactured by
        the
        > Swiss firm Jaeger. (My brother has one of these clock which has been
        > working continuously now for 30 years!).
        >
        > While there is no doubt that these machines work and do convert heat
        at
        > ambient heat into mechanical work, It is very difficult to get one
        of
        > these machines to generate significant amounts of power. The reason
        is
        > that the temperature differences available are small. The second law
        of
        > thermodynamics says that the efficiency of any heat engine is
        limited to
        > (Tmax-Tmin)/Tmax (all temperatures in degrees Kelvin). This
        efficiency
        > limit is called the Carnot efficiency. The expression of the 2nd law
        > that forbids a higher efficiency is called the Kelvin expression of
        the
        > 2nd law of thermodynamics. If we could find a way around the 2nd
        law, we
        > could do better, but surely it would be a good idea to know more
        about
        > the 2nd law before attempting to find a way around it.
        >
        > Now let us suppose we have a machine that causes a mass of material
        at
        > ambient temperature and splits it into half at high temperature and
        half
        > at low temperature. No energy would be created. The 1st law of
        > thermodynamics (which says that energy cannot be either created or
        > destroyed) would not be violated and we would then have the basis of
        a
        > way of creating large amounts of energy from heat at ambient
        > temperature. Unfortunately there is another expression of the 2nd
        law of
        > thermodynamics called the Clausius expression which says such a
        machine
        > is impossible. This says that "No process is possible in which the
        sole
        > result is the transfer of of energy from a cooler body to a hotter
        one".
        >
        > The common notion of a perpetual motion machine is a machine that
        > creates something out of nothing. In scientific terms, this is
        called a
        > perpetual mobile of the first kind; because it would break the 1st
        law
        > of thermodynamics. What this group was set up to develop is not this
        > kind of folly. What Boyd proposes is not that kind of perpetual
        motion
        > machine. It is unfortunate that the scientific name for what we are
        > about is "a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind": because it would
        violate
        > the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is unfortuante because if there
        really
        > reasons why such a machine cannot work, they have nothing to do with
        the
        > reaosns why the first kind of machine will not work. Nevertheless
        the
        > scientific name tars us with the same brush by using a similar name.
        >
        > The machine described below is intended to generate a spontaneous
        > temperature difference between two objects. No energy input is
        required
        > other than heat at ambient temperature. It violates the second law.
        That
        > is the tricky bit and so only that part is described. To turn this
        heat
        > difference into usable energy would require one of many available
        heat
        > engines. The exact type is not important but to try and keep the
        > "machine" free of moving parts, I would suggest a semiconductor
        > thermocouple such as a Peltier device working in reverse. The whole
        > device would reduce the temperature of its surroundings once the
        heat
        > engine was added and supplying power. Some of the heat into work and
        so
        > the 1st law would not be violated.
        >
        > The device consists of two plates, separated by a vacuum and in
        thermal
        > equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is achieved when the power of heat
        > radiated is equal to the power of heat absorbed. Since the process
        of
        > photon absorption is the exact reverse of the process of photon
        > emission, the ability of a surface to radiate heat is exactly
        matched by
        > its ability to absorb heat at the same wavelength. Thus thermal
        > equilibrium is achieved when the two plates are at the same
        temperature:
        > irrespective of the surface properties of the plates.
        >
        > One of the plates, plate A, is covered with a material that emits
        (and
        > absorbs) far infra-red radiation at about 10um: the peak wavelength
        of
        > black-body radiation at 20 degrees Celsius. It is reflective at
        shorter
        > wavelengths. The other plate, plate B, has a surface wich absorbs
        (and
        > emits) at 5um, the peak wavelength for black body radiation at about
        300
        > degrees Celsius. It is reflective at longer wavelengths. This
        > arrangement means that there is actually very little radiative
        transfer
        > of heat between the two plates. Plate A radiates heat at a rate of
        about
        > 20 Watts per square metre, but most of that radiation is reflected
        by
        > plate B. Nevertheless, some heat must be transferred and thermal
        > equilibrium is reached with the plates at the same temperature.
        >
        > Now comes the clever bit. A material is placed between the two
        plates
        > that has the same property as that used for laser frequency
        doublers. It
        > distorts the electromagnetic radiation so that some of the light is
        > up-converted to twice the frequency: half the wavelength. This
        > particular material is active at a wavelength of 10um, some of which
        it
        > converts to 5um.
        >
        > Some of the heat radiated from plate A is converted by the material
        to a
        > wavelength of 5um. This heat falls upon plate B and is completely
        > absorbed. however this material does not do the same in reverse. it
        does
        > not convert the 5um radiation emitted from plate B into 10um on the
        > return journey. (It is impossible for distortion to create harmonics
        at
        > a lower frequency.) In short, it is the kind of microscopic process
        > referred to in my earlier email that is not time symmetrical.
        > Consequently very little heat returns from plate B onto plate A.
        >
        > Thermal equilibrium is still reached. however it can now only be
        reached
        > when the two plates are at different temperatures. Some heat will
        leak
        > back from plate B to plate A, however not as much as reaches plate B
        > from plate A.
        >
        > Possible flaws:
        >
        > Such materials only work with coherent light.
        > Such materials only work at the high light intensities found at the
        > output of lasers.
        > Such materials do not work at the same colour temperatuere as the
        light
        > they convert.
        >
        > I would welcome any comments. I am particularly interested in anyone
        who
        > work with lasers or optics and might know something about these
        light
        > frequency doubling materials and whether or not any of the possible
        > flaws I outlined above are in fact the case. I am finding it
        difficult
        > to track this information down.
        >
        > Bob Lerwill
      • Bob Lerwill
        Hi Hubert Thanks for the encouraging comments. Yes I intend trying it. The only problem at the moment is identifying the light frequency doubling material
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 11, 2001
          Hi Hubert

          Thanks for the encouraging comments. Yes I intend trying it. The only
          problem at the moment is identifying the light frequency doubling
          material active in the appropriate wavelength area, which is why i am
          asking for help. I know what materials are used in the higher
          wavelengths, but these materials are wavelength specific.

          As for power, I think the figure I calulate of 20W per square meter,
          while modest is still useful.

          88--- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., hustierhof@y... wrote:
          > Hello Bob,
          >
          > despite the fact, that I am no specialist in the realm of laser
          > technology, your idea (A material is placed between the two plates
          > that has the same property as that used for laser
          > frequency doublers.) sounds interesting at least for a
          > experiment....so, you should TRY IT, so we all may learn by that.
          > But I think, that radiation in the two plates you described, will be
          > very very low in its ambient condition.
          >
          > Hubert
          >
          > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., Robert Lerwill <bob.mo@v...> wrote:
          > > Before I start, can I say as a new member of this group that I am
          > not
          > > highly educated, I have just done a lot of thinking and read a lot
          > of
          > > books. What follows is a supplemented copy of a posting to the
          > > free-energy group run by Eric Krieg. There is another posting on
          > that
          > > site relating to the theory behind what follows if you wish to
          look
          > it
          > > up.
          > >
          > > There are several machines available that can convert heat at
          > ambient
          > > temperature into mechanical work. However all of the exisiting
          ones
          > rely
          > > on the small changes that occur in temperature: between day and
          > night,
          > > mountains and plains, sea and land, latitude or season. In other
          > words,
          > > weather. If it wasn't for weather, you would never get water
          > existing in
          > > an atmosphere at less than 100% humidity. The dipping bird does
          not
          > work
          > > unless you have water in an atmosphere of less than 100% humidity.
          > > Another example of this is the "Atmos" clock which uses small
          > > temperature variations to wind up a spring. They are manufactured
          by
          > the
          > > Swiss firm Jaeger. (My brother has one of these clock which has
          been
          > > working continuously now for 30 years!).
          > >
          > > While there is no doubt that these machines work and do convert
          heat
          > at
          > > ambient heat into mechanical work, It is very difficult to get one
          > of
          > > these machines to generate significant amounts of power. The
          reason
          > is
          > > that the temperature differences available are small. The second
          law
          > of
          > > thermodynamics says that the efficiency of any heat engine is
          > limited to
          > > (Tmax-Tmin)/Tmax (all temperatures in degrees Kelvin). This
          > efficiency
          > > limit is called the Carnot efficiency. The expression of the 2nd
          law
          > > that forbids a higher efficiency is called the Kelvin expression
          of
          > the
          > > 2nd law of thermodynamics. If we could find a way around the 2nd
          > law, we
          > > could do better, but surely it would be a good idea to know more
          > about
          > > the 2nd law before attempting to find a way around it.
          > >
          > > Now let us suppose we have a machine that causes a mass of
          material
          > at
          > > ambient temperature and splits it into half at high temperature
          and
          > half
          > > at low temperature. No energy would be created. The 1st law of
          > > thermodynamics (which says that energy cannot be either created or
          > > destroyed) would not be violated and we would then have the basis
          of
          > a
          > > way of creating large amounts of energy from heat at ambient
          > > temperature. Unfortunately there is another expression of the 2nd
          > law of
          > > thermodynamics called the Clausius expression which says such a
          > machine
          > > is impossible. This says that "No process is possible in which the
          > sole
          > > result is the transfer of of energy from a cooler body to a hotter
          > one".
          > >
          > > The common notion of a perpetual motion machine is a machine that
          > > creates something out of nothing. In scientific terms, this is
          > called a
          > > perpetual mobile of the first kind; because it would break the 1st
          > law
          > > of thermodynamics. What this group was set up to develop is not
          this
          > > kind of folly. What Boyd proposes is not that kind of perpetual
          > motion
          > > machine. It is unfortunate that the scientific name for what we
          are
          > > about is "a perpetuum mobile of the 2nd kind": because it would
          > violate
          > > the 2nd law of thermodynamics. It is unfortuante because if there
          > really
          > > reasons why such a machine cannot work, they have nothing to do
          with
          > the
          > > reaosns why the first kind of machine will not work. Nevertheless
          > the
          > > scientific name tars us with the same brush by using a similar
          name.
          > >
          > > The machine described below is intended to generate a spontaneous
          > > temperature difference between two objects. No energy input is
          > required
          > > other than heat at ambient temperature. It violates the second
          law.
          > That
          > > is the tricky bit and so only that part is described. To turn this
          > heat
          > > difference into usable energy would require one of many available
          > heat
          > > engines. The exact type is not important but to try and keep the
          > > "machine" free of moving parts, I would suggest a semiconductor
          > > thermocouple such as a Peltier device working in reverse. The
          whole
          > > device would reduce the temperature of its surroundings once the
          > heat
          > > engine was added and supplying power. Some of the heat into work
          and
          > so
          > > the 1st law would not be violated.
          > >
          > > The device consists of two plates, separated by a vacuum and in
          > thermal
          > > equilibrium. Thermal equilibrium is achieved when the power of
          heat
          > > radiated is equal to the power of heat absorbed. Since the process
          > of
          > > photon absorption is the exact reverse of the process of photon
          > > emission, the ability of a surface to radiate heat is exactly
          > matched by
          > > its ability to absorb heat at the same wavelength. Thus thermal
          > > equilibrium is achieved when the two plates are at the same
          > temperature:
          > > irrespective of the surface properties of the plates.
          > >
          > > One of the plates, plate A, is covered with a material that emits
          > (and
          > > absorbs) far infra-red radiation at about 10um: the peak
          wavelength
          > of
          > > black-body radiation at 20 degrees Celsius. It is reflective at
          > shorter
          > > wavelengths. The other plate, plate B, has a surface wich absorbs
          > (and
          > > emits) at 5um, the peak wavelength for black body radiation at
          about
          > 300
          > > degrees Celsius. It is reflective at longer wavelengths. This
          > > arrangement means that there is actually very little radiative
          > transfer
          > > of heat between the two plates. Plate A radiates heat at a rate of
          > about
          > > 20 Watts per square metre, but most of that radiation is reflected
          > by
          > > plate B. Nevertheless, some heat must be transferred and thermal
          > > equilibrium is reached with the plates at the same temperature.
          > >
          > > Now comes the clever bit. A material is placed between the two
          > plates
          > > that has the same property as that used for laser frequency
          > doublers. It
          > > distorts the electromagnetic radiation so that some of the light
          is
          > > up-converted to twice the frequency: half the wavelength. This
          > > particular material is active at a wavelength of 10um, some of
          which
          > it
          > > converts to 5um.
          > >
          > > Some of the heat radiated from plate A is converted by the
          material
          > to a
          > > wavelength of 5um. This heat falls upon plate B and is completely
          > > absorbed. however this material does not do the same in reverse.
          it
          > does
          > > not convert the 5um radiation emitted from plate B into 10um on
          the
          > > return journey. (It is impossible for distortion to create
          harmonics
          > at
          > > a lower frequency.) In short, it is the kind of microscopic
          process
          > > referred to in my earlier email that is not time symmetrical.
          > > Consequently very little heat returns from plate B onto plate A.
          > >
          > > Thermal equilibrium is still reached. however it can now only be
          > reached
          > > when the two plates are at different temperatures. Some heat will
          > leak
          > > back from plate B to plate A, however not as much as reaches plate
          B
          > > from plate A.
          > >
          > > Possible flaws:
          > >
          > > Such materials only work with coherent light.
          > > Such materials only work at the high light intensities found at
          the
          > > output of lasers.
          > > Such materials do not work at the same colour temperatuere as the
          > light
          > > they convert.
          > >
          > > I would welcome any comments. I am particularly interested in
          anyone
          > who
          > > work with lasers or optics and might know something about these
          > light
          > > frequency doubling materials and whether or not any of the
          possible
          > > flaws I outlined above are in fact the case. I am finding it
          > difficult
          > > to track this information down.
          > >
          > > Bob Lerwill
        • hans-joachim.ehlers@ashe.de
          ... only ... am ... As an answer on a germam news group de.sci.physik i have got the following: Ja, gibt es. Vorraussetzung dafür ist ledigliche
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 19, 2001
            --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Bob Lerwill" <bob.mo@v...> wrote:
            > Hi Hubert
            >
            > Thanks for the encouraging comments. Yes I intend trying it. The
            only
            > problem at the moment is identifying the light frequency doubling
            > material active in the appropriate wavelength area, which is why i
            am
            > asking for help. I know what materials are used in the higher
            > wavelengths, but these materials are wavelength specific.

            As an answer on a germam news group "de.sci.physik" i have got the
            following:

            <german>
            Ja, gibt es. Vorraussetzung dafür ist ledigliche eine
            nicht-zentrosymmetrische Struktur von Dipolen im Medium. Stichwort
            für die
            Suche im Internet oder der nächsten Bücherei 'Second Harmonic
            Generation',
            SHG. Oder ganz allgemein Nichtlineare Optik, da die SHG eh der
            einfachste
            Effekt der NLO ist.
            Für die von dir angegebenen Wellenlängen dürften Tellur oder CdGeAs_2
            geeignet sein.
            </german>

            The main thing is:
            you need tellur or CdGeAs_2 which should not be to thick because of
            interference problems.

            You might also check with a good search machine for:
            'Second Harmonic Generation, nolinear optic , nlo, tellur, CdGeAs_2'

            Hope this help.

            Hajo
          • Bob Lerwill
            Thanks for the information. I shall check this out. I am also looking at Lithium Iodate as a possibility. ... i ... CdGeAs_2
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 25, 2001
              Thanks for the information. I shall check this out. I am also looking
              at Lithium Iodate as a possibility.

              --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., hans-joachim.ehlers@a... wrote:
              > --- In AMBIENTENERGY@y..., "Bob Lerwill" <bob.mo@v...> wrote:
              > > Hi Hubert
              > >
              > > Thanks for the encouraging comments. Yes I intend trying it. The
              > only
              > > problem at the moment is identifying the light frequency doubling
              > > material active in the appropriate wavelength area, which is why
              i
              > am
              > > asking for help. I know what materials are used in the higher
              > > wavelengths, but these materials are wavelength specific.
              >
              > As an answer on a germam news group "de.sci.physik" i have got the
              > following:
              >
              > <german>
              > Ja, gibt es. Vorraussetzung dafür ist ledigliche eine
              > nicht-zentrosymmetrische Struktur von Dipolen im Medium. Stichwort
              > für die
              > Suche im Internet oder der nächsten Bücherei 'Second Harmonic
              > Generation',
              > SHG. Oder ganz allgemein Nichtlineare Optik, da die SHG eh der
              > einfachste
              > Effekt der NLO ist.
              > Für die von dir angegebenen Wellenlängen dürften Tellur oder
              CdGeAs_2
              > geeignet sein.
              > </german>
              >
              > The main thing is:
              > you need tellur or CdGeAs_2 which should not be to thick because of
              > interference problems.
              >
              > You might also check with a good search machine for:
              > 'Second Harmonic Generation, nolinear optic , nlo, tellur, CdGeAs_2'
              >
              > Hope this help.
              >
              > Hajo
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