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RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???

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  • kirk
    Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a thermocouple? I don t think I have the right picture here. I purchased a used array from
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
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      Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
      thermocouple?
      I don't think I have the right picture here.

      I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to play
      with it but have not yet had time.

      Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult to
      retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up to
      higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
      claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
      like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
      capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses at
      Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on. These
      FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
      pretty good.

      Kirk
      KC7THL

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
      Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
      To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???


      At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
      >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
      >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps 3
      >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
      >
      >Kirk

      I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
      converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W but
      by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
      watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%

      I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By momentarily
      sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive spike
      which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
      the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional FETs
      in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
      efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
      aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
      expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...

      By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
      F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.



      >-----Original Message-----
      >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
      >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
      >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
      >
      >
      >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work with
      >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
      >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each sub
      >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
      >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
      >
      >
      >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
      > >There is a URL in archives.
      > >
      > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
      > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The claim
      of
      > >high efficiency has problems.
      > >
      > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
      >defined
      > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
      design
      > >is penciled.
      > >
      > >Kirk
      > >
      > >-----Original Message-----
      > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
      > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
      > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
      > >
      > >
      > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small demonstration
      >wheel
      > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at least I
      > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
      lacking
      > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it did
      >not
      > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
      > >The Dragon
      > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
      > >
      > >
      > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > >AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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      > p://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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      > oo! Terms of Service.
      >
      >Charlie Ford
      >
      >KC5-OWZ
      >cjford1@...
      >cjford1@...
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      Charlie Ford

      KC5-OWZ
      cjford1@...
      cjford1@...
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    • Charles Ford
      Kirk:I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
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        Kirk:

        I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
        they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
        tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip that
        I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.

        If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used in
        the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we could
        get the voltage that we need.




        At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
        >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
        >thermocouple?
        >I don't think I have the right picture here.
        >
        >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to play
        >with it but have not yet had time.
        >
        >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult to
        >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up to
        >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
        >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
        >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
        >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses at
        >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on. These
        >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
        >pretty good.
        >
        >Kirk
        >KC7THL
        >
        >-----Original Message-----
        >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
        >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
        >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
        >
        >
        >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
        > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
        > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps 3
        > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
        > >
        > >Kirk
        >
        >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
        >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W but
        >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
        >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
        >
        >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By momentarily
        >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive spike
        >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
        >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional FETs
        >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
        >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
        >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
        >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
        >
        >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
        >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
        >
        >
        >
        > >-----Original Message-----
        > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
        > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
        > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
        > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
        > >
        > >
        > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work with
        > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
        > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each sub
        > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
        > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
        > >
        > >
        > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
        > > >There is a URL in archives.
        > > >
        > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
        > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The claim
        >of
        > > >high efficiency has problems.
        > > >
        > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
        > >defined
        > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
        >design
        > > >is penciled.
        > > >
        > > >Kirk
        > > >
        > > >-----Original Message-----
        > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
        > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
        > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small demonstration
        > >wheel
        > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at least I
        > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
        >lacking
        > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it did
        > >not
        > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
        > > >The Dragon
        > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > >AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > ><<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>htt
        > > p://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
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        > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system
        > > >(<<<http://www.grisoft.com).>http://www.grisoft.com).>http://www.grisof
        > t.com).>http://www.grisoft.c
        > > om).
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        > > ><<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yah
        > > oo! Terms of Service.
        > >
        > >Charlie Ford
        > >
        > >KC5-OWZ
        > >cjford1@...
        > >cjford1@...
        > >_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
        > >Get your free @... address at
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        > oo! Terms of Service.
        >
        >Charlie Ford
        >
        >KC5-OWZ
        >cjford1@...
        >cjford1@...
        >_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
        >Get your free @... address at
        ><http://mail.yahoo.com>http://mail.yahoo.com
        >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        Charlie Ford

        KC5-OWZ
        cjford1@...
        cjford1@...

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      • kirk
        What are you using to get 330 mV at 10 A ? And what delta T? Kirk ... From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM To:
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          What are you using to get 330 mV at 10 A ? And what delta T?

          Kirk

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
          Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM
          To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???


          Kirk:

          I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
          they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
          tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip that
          I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.

          If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used in
          the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we could
          get the voltage that we need.




          At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
          >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
          >thermocouple?
          >I don't think I have the right picture here.
          >
          >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to play
          >with it but have not yet had time.
          >
          >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult
          to
          >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up
          to
          >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
          >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
          >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
          >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses at
          >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on. These
          >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
          >pretty good.
          >
          >Kirk
          >KC7THL
          >
          >-----Original Message-----
          >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
          >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
          >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
          >
          >
          >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
          > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
          > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps 3
          > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
          > >
          > >Kirk
          >
          >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
          >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W but
          >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
          >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
          >
          >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By momentarily
          >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive spike
          >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
          >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional FETs
          >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
          >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
          >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
          >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
          >
          >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
          >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
          >
          >
          >
          > >-----Original Message-----
          > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
          > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
          > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
          > >
          > >
          > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work
          with
          > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
          > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each
          sub
          > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
          > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
          > >
          > >
          > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
          > > >There is a URL in archives.
          > > >
          > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
          > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The claim
          >of
          > > >high efficiency has problems.
          > > >
          > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
          > >defined
          > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
          >design
          > > >is penciled.
          > > >
          > > >Kirk
          > > >
          > > >-----Original Message-----
          > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
          > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
          > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
          > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small demonstration
          > >wheel
          > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at least
          I
          > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
          >lacking
          > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it
          did
          > >not
          > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
          > > >The Dragon
          > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > >AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > ><<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>htt
          > > p://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >---
          > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
          > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system
          > > >(<<<http://www.grisoft.com).>http://www.grisoft.com).>http://www.grisof
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          > > om).
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          > > >
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          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>Yah
          > > oo! Terms of Service.
          > >
          > >Charlie Ford
          > >
          > >KC5-OWZ
          > >cjford1@...
          > >cjford1@...
          > >_________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!?
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        • kirk
          You have chosen an interesting area. I have spotty knowledge on the topic so went looking around. What interested me in this was large Seebeck co-efficients
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            You have chosen an interesting area. I have spotty knowledge on the topic so
            went looking around. What interested me in this was large Seebeck
            co-efficients are reported to coexist with large carrier concentrations in
            boron carbides.
            Versus materials with large carrier concentrations have small Seebeck
            coefficients (<< 100 V/K). Seems that non metals offer higher prospects.
            Another one was bismuth iodide.

            I find Minto's wheel easier to understand.

            Kirk


            http://www.sandia.gov/1100/Xresbrief/amttla.htm
            Boron Carbides' Unusual Thermoelectric Coefficients
            by T. L. Aselage, D. Emin and S. S. McCready

            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----

            Motivation
            The unexpectedly large Seebeck coefficients reported for boron carbides
            generated interest in their use for thermoelectric energy conversion. In
            particular, both existing theory and experience with conventional materials
            indicates that materials with large carrier concentrations have small
            Seebeck coefficients (<< 100 V/K). However, large Seebeck co-efficients are
            reported to coexist with large carrier concentrations in boron carbides.
            Irreproducible aspects of these reports made it unclear if these reports
            were to be trusted. In this work we endeavored to ascertain whether the
            boron carbides truly had large Seebeck coefficients. Presuming some truth to
            the published reports, careful measurements of the Seebeck coefficients as
            functions of temperature and carrier concentration would facilitate
            unearthing the cause of boron carbides anomalously large Seebeck
            coefficients.
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----

            Accomplishment
            Well-characterized samples of boron carbides were prepared with carbon
            contents that span boron carbides' full range. Three apparati were also
            built so that the Seebeck coefficients could be measured over an unusually
            wide temperature range, 15 K to 900 K. The Seebeck coefficients of a few
            representative boron carbides are shown in Figure 1. Unlike the Seebeck
            coefficients of conventional materials with large carrier densities, these
            rise with temperature to large near-temperature-independent values. Boron
            carbides' Seebeck coefficients also have a fractionally small variation with
            carbon concentration and hence carrier concentration. These findings show
            prior works to contain significant errors. For example, some prior
            measurements of boron carbides' Seebeck coefficients were strongly affected
            by shorting out of boron carbides' transport by graphite inclusions.
            The large contribution to the Seebeck coefficient that is independent of
            carrier concentration is a novel effect. We explain this effect as arising
            from the carrier-induced softening of sites upon which carriers reside,
            twelve-atom boron-rich icosahedra. We have shown that carriers added to
            multisite structural units generally soften these units. This softening
            lowers the vibrational frequencies and thereby increases the vibrational
            entropy. As illustrated in Figure 2, the Seebeck coefficient produced by
            this effect rises with increasing temperature to saturation above the
            temperature corresponding to the molecular vibrations with which the
            carriers interact, .


            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----

            Significance
            Large Seebeck coefficients can result when carriers added to atomic clusters
            soften these units. Thus, solids based on atomic clusters should be the
            focus of searches for especially efficient thermoelectrics. Indeed, the
            large cage-like structures of Si- and Ge-based clathrates may be key to
            these materials having the large Seebeck coefficients that has generated
            recent interest in their use in thermoelectric cooling. Carrier-induced
            softening is also an essential element of both conventional (BCS) and
            large-bipolaronic superconductivity.
            ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
            ----
            Keywords: Seebeck coefficients, thermoelectrics, boron carbides, atomic
            vibrations
            Contact: Terrence L. Aselage, Advanced Materials Physics & Devices Dept.,
            1153
            Phone: (505) 845-8027
            Fax: (505) 844-4045
            E-mail: tlasela@...


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
            Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM
            To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???


            Kirk:

            I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
            they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
            tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip that
            I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.

            If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used in
            the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we could
            get the voltage that we need.




            At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
            >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
            >thermocouple?
            >I don't think I have the right picture here.
            >
            >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to play
            >with it but have not yet had time.
            >
            >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult
            to
            >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up
            to
            >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
            >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
            >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
            >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses at
            >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on. These
            >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
            >pretty good.
            >
            >Kirk
            >KC7THL
            >
            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
            >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
            >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
            >
            >
            >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
            > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
            > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps 3
            > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
            > >
            > >Kirk
            >
            >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
            >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W but
            >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
            >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
            >
            >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By momentarily
            >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive spike
            >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
            >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional FETs
            >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
            >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
            >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
            >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
            >
            >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
            >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
            >
            >
            >
            > >-----Original Message-----
            > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
            > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
            > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
            > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
            > >
            > >
            > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work
            with
            > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
            > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each
            sub
            > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
            > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
            > >
            > >
            > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
            > > >There is a URL in archives.
            > > >
            > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
            > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The claim
            >of
            > > >high efficiency has problems.
            > > >
            > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
            > >defined
            > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
            >design
            > > >is penciled.
            > > >
            > > >Kirk
            > > >
            > > >-----Original Message-----
            > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
            > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
            > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small demonstration
            > >wheel
            > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at least
            I
            > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
            >lacking
            > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it
            did
            > >not
            > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
            > > >The Dragon
            > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
            > > >
            > > >
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            > > >AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            Charlie Ford

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          • Charles Ford
            Kirk:I have ben using a Copper foil pressed between two aluminum plates. (A choice of conveyance for a HAM) I squish the foil between the plates and heat
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Kirk:

              I have ben using a Copper foil pressed between two aluminum plates. (A
              choice of conveyance for a HAM) I squish the foil between the plates and
              heat it with a bolt on 25W resister. Using 10W electrical heat source
              offers me those readings. I misquote the power a bit... The .33V is
              open circuit and the 10A is shorted. It is not a real power reading and
              actually smacks a bit of the old OU tricks. I am sorry the delta T was
              about 15 degrees F ( I think) when that reading was taken.... My FET
              circuit runs on a little less then 3mw with a maximum switching frequency
              of about 90KHz

              Give me some time to do this correctly and maybe a little help with the
              thermal couples and I will be able to offer some real numbers. Also
              drawings and circuit diagrams.

              I think the more of us that learn how to make usable electrical power from
              small gradients the better. This will add a skill that will likely make us
              valuable in the future. Beyond the fact of proving we can do this with
              water cooling.



              At 03:03 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
              >What are you using to get 330 mV at 10 A ? And what delta T?
              >
              >Kirk
              >
              >-----Original Message-----
              >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
              >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM
              >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
              >
              >
              >Kirk:
              >
              >I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
              >they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
              >tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip that
              >I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.
              >
              >If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used in
              >the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we could
              >get the voltage that we need.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
              > >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
              > >thermocouple?
              > >I don't think I have the right picture here.
              > >
              > >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to play
              > >with it but have not yet had time.
              > >
              > >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult
              >to
              > >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up
              >to
              > >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
              > >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
              > >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
              > >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses at
              > >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on. These
              > >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
              > >pretty good.
              > >
              > >Kirk
              > >KC7THL
              > >
              > >-----Original Message-----
              > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
              > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
              > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
              > >
              > >
              > >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
              > > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
              > > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps 3
              > > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
              > > >
              > > >Kirk
              > >
              > >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
              > >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W but
              > >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
              > >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
              > >
              > >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By momentarily
              > >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive spike
              > >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
              > >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional FETs
              > >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
              > >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
              > >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
              > >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
              > >
              > >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
              > >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > >-----Original Message-----
              > > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
              > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
              > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
              > > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work
              >with
              > > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
              > > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each
              >sub
              > > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
              > > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
              > > > >There is a URL in archives.
              > > > >
              > > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
              > > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The claim
              > >of
              > > > >high efficiency has problems.
              > > > >
              > > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
              > > >defined
              > > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
              > >design
              > > > >is penciled.
              > > > >
              > > > >Kirk
              > > > >
              > > > >-----Original Message-----
              > > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
              > > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
              > > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
              > > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small demonstration
              > > >wheel
              > > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at least
              >I
              > > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
              > >lacking
              > > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it
              >did
              > > >not
              > > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
              > > > >The Dragon
              > > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > >AMBIENTENERGY-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > > ><<<<http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/term
              > s/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>
              > > <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>htt
              > > > p://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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            • Charles Ford
              I was unable to find my Minto wheel info...All I found was the Yeats pattent which I had confused with the Minto.Was this a copper ring with a thermal
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
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                I was unable to find my Minto wheel info...

                All I found was the Yeats pattent which I had confused with the Minto.

                Was this a copper ring with a thermal couple assembly at one end?



                Charlie Ford
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              • kirk
                You need to parallel ampmeter with a voltmeter when you measure current so you can measure the E drop for shunt and wiring. Are you saying Al Cu Al and Al is
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
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                  You need to parallel ampmeter with a voltmeter when you measure current so
                  you can measure the E drop for shunt and wiring.
                  Are you saying Al Cu Al and Al is both ends? Water cooling?
                  What is Ph of water? Sure you dont have a chemical thing here?

                  I'm sure you know more about this than me but I thought I'd toss out my
                  immediate thoughts/reaction
                  Kirk

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                  Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:47 PM
                  To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???


                  Kirk:

                  I have ben using a Copper foil pressed between two aluminum plates. (A
                  choice of conveyance for a HAM) I squish the foil between the plates and
                  heat it with a bolt on 25W resister. Using 10W electrical heat source
                  offers me those readings. I misquote the power a bit... The .33V is
                  open circuit and the 10A is shorted. It is not a real power reading and
                  actually smacks a bit of the old OU tricks. I am sorry the delta T was
                  about 15 degrees F ( I think) when that reading was taken.... My FET
                  circuit runs on a little less then 3mw with a maximum switching frequency
                  of about 90KHz

                  Give me some time to do this correctly and maybe a little help with the
                  thermal couples and I will be able to offer some real numbers. Also
                  drawings and circuit diagrams.

                  I think the more of us that learn how to make usable electrical power from
                  small gradients the better. This will add a skill that will likely make us
                  valuable in the future. Beyond the fact of proving we can do this with
                  water cooling.



                  At 03:03 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                  >What are you using to get 330 mV at 10 A ? And what delta T?
                  >
                  >Kirk
                  >
                  >-----Original Message-----
                  >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                  >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM
                  >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                  >
                  >
                  >Kirk:
                  >
                  >I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
                  >they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
                  >tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip that
                  >I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.
                  >
                  >If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used in
                  >the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we could
                  >get the voltage that we need.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                  > >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
                  > >thermocouple?
                  > >I don't think I have the right picture here.
                  > >
                  > >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to
                  play
                  > >with it but have not yet had time.
                  > >
                  > >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult
                  >to
                  > >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up
                  >to
                  > >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
                  > >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
                  > >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
                  > >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses
                  at
                  > >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on.
                  These
                  > >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
                  > >pretty good.
                  > >
                  > >Kirk
                  > >KC7THL
                  > >
                  > >-----Original Message-----
                  > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                  > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
                  > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                  > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                  > > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
                  > > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps
                  3
                  > > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
                  > > >
                  > > >Kirk
                  > >
                  > >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
                  > >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W
                  but
                  > >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
                  > >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
                  > >
                  > >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By
                  momentarily
                  > >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive
                  spike
                  > >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
                  > >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional
                  FETs
                  > >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
                  > >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
                  > >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
                  > >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
                  > >
                  > >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
                  > >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > >-----Original Message-----
                  > > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                  > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
                  > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work
                  >with
                  > > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
                  > > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each
                  >sub
                  > > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
                  > > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                  > > > >There is a URL in archives.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
                  > > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The
                  claim
                  > >of
                  > > > >high efficiency has problems.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
                  > > >defined
                  > > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
                  > >design
                  > > > >is penciled.
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Kirk
                  > > > >
                  > > > >-----Original Message-----
                  > > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
                  > > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
                  > > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small
                  demonstration
                  > > >wheel
                  > > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at
                  least
                  >I
                  > > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
                  > >lacking
                  > > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it
                  >did
                  > > >not
                  > > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
                  > > > >The Dragon
                  > > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
                  > > > >
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                • kirk
                  I ll look in archives tomorrow. There is a URL to a sketch of Minto s wheel. It can be improved a lot. enough to say replace the pool motor that runs the
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
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                    I'll look in archives tomorrow. There is a URL to a sketch of Minto's wheel.

                    It can be improved a lot. enough to say replace the pool motor that runs the
                    filter on a swimming pool with a solar collector half the size of the pool.
                    Lot of pool motors in US

                    Kirk

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                    Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 PM
                    To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???


                    I was unable to find my Minto wheel info...

                    All I found was the Yeats pattent which I had confused with the Minto.

                    Was this a copper ring with a thermal couple assembly at one end?



                    Charlie Ford
                    KC5-OWZ
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                  • Charles Ford
                    At 11:19 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote: You need to parallel ampmeter with a voltmeter when you measure current so you can measure the E drop for shunt and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
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                      At 11:19 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                      >You need to parallel ampmeter with a voltmeter when you measure current so
                      >you can measure the E drop for shunt and wiring.
                      >Are you saying Al Cu Al and Al is both ends? Water cooling?
                      >What is Ph of water? Sure you dont have a chemical thing here?
                      >
                      >I'm sure you know more about this than me but I thought I'd toss out my
                      >immediate thoughts/reaction
                      >Kirk

                      Kirk:

                      As far as the measurements go I am many years in the engineering and have
                      cleaned up the booboos of many of my colleagues not to mention having
                      several dozen of my own designs out there... I was not making more then
                      "lets see if it is working" measurements... The numbers aren't even
                      written down yet. But thanks for the suggestions there are so many who
                      simply don't know about this.

                      Al to Cu at both ends. Water cooling is the basis for the bird. We are
                      attempting to make usable power from the difference between ambient
                      temperature and dew point. So we must be prepared to expose the thing to
                      extreme damp if not totally submerge part of the system.
                      I have not ventured into the water cooling yet... However it has been very
                      humid in North Texas lately and as I work my hobbies in the garage there
                      just may be a chemical thing going on that I had not considered. I will
                      have to try testing in dry air.

                      For now I need to call it a night... and didn't Boyd say something about
                      the list being slow????

                      Cheers



                      >-----Original Message-----
                      >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                      >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:47 PM
                      >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                      >
                      >
                      >Kirk:
                      >
                      >I have ben using a Copper foil pressed between two aluminum plates. (A
                      >choice of conveyance for a HAM) I squish the foil between the plates and
                      >heat it with a bolt on 25W resister. Using 10W electrical heat source
                      >offers me those readings. I misquote the power a bit... The .33V is
                      >open circuit and the 10A is shorted. It is not a real power reading and
                      >actually smacks a bit of the old OU tricks. I am sorry the delta T was
                      >about 15 degrees F ( I think) when that reading was taken.... My FET
                      >circuit runs on a little less then 3mw with a maximum switching frequency
                      >of about 90KHz
                      >
                      >Give me some time to do this correctly and maybe a little help with the
                      >thermal couples and I will be able to offer some real numbers. Also
                      >drawings and circuit diagrams.
                      >
                      >I think the more of us that learn how to make usable electrical power from
                      >small gradients the better. This will add a skill that will likely make us
                      >valuable in the future. Beyond the fact of proving we can do this with
                      >water cooling.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >At 03:03 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                      > >What are you using to get 330 mV at 10 A ? And what delta T?
                      > >
                      > >Kirk
                      > >
                      > >-----Original Message-----
                      > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                      > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM
                      > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >Kirk:
                      > >
                      > >I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
                      > >they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only a
                      > >tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip that
                      > >I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.
                      > >
                      > >If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used in
                      > >the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we could
                      > >get the voltage that we need.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                      > > >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
                      > > >thermocouple?
                      > > >I don't think I have the right picture here.
                      > > >
                      > > >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to
                      >play
                      > > >with it but have not yet had time.
                      > > >
                      > > >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very difficult
                      > >to
                      > > >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you up
                      > >to
                      > > >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid cells
                      > > >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds. Sounds
                      > > >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
                      > > >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses
                      >at
                      > > >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on.
                      >These
                      > > >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which is
                      > > >pretty good.
                      > > >
                      > > >Kirk
                      > > >KC7THL
                      > > >
                      > > >-----Original Message-----
                      > > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                      > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
                      > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                      > > > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
                      > > > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length perhaps
                      >3
                      > > > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >Kirk
                      > > >
                      > > >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
                      > > >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W
                      >but
                      > > >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then a
                      > > >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
                      > > >
                      > > >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By
                      >momentarily
                      > > >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive
                      >spike
                      > > >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I fear
                      > > >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional
                      >FETs
                      > > >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a more
                      > > >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
                      > > >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
                      > > >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
                      > > >
                      > > >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
                      > > >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > >-----Original Message-----
                      > > > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                      > > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
                      > > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more work
                      > >with
                      > > > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
                      > > > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of each
                      > >sub
                      > > > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
                      > > > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                      > > > > >There is a URL in archives.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss the
                      > > > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The
                      >claim
                      > > >of
                      > > > > >high efficiency has problems.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss is
                      > > > >defined
                      > > > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
                      > > >design
                      > > > > >is penciled.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Kirk
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >-----Original Message-----
                      > > > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
                      > > > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
                      > > > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small
                      >demonstration
                      > > > >wheel
                      > > > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at
                      >least
                      > >I
                      > > > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
                      > > >lacking
                      > > > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when it
                      > >did
                      > > > >not
                      > > > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be appreciated.
                      > > > > >The Dragon
                      > > > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
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                    • kirk
                      Excellent. I am always on the lookout for measurement error. Glad that is not a concern here. 73 Kirk ... From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@yahoo.com] Sent:
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 6, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Excellent. I am always on the lookout for measurement error. Glad that is
                        not a concern here.

                        73
                        Kirk


                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                        Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2001 12:03 AM
                        To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???


                        At 11:19 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                        >You need to parallel ampmeter with a voltmeter when you measure current so
                        >you can measure the E drop for shunt and wiring.
                        >Are you saying Al Cu Al and Al is both ends? Water cooling?
                        >What is Ph of water? Sure you dont have a chemical thing here?
                        >
                        >I'm sure you know more about this than me but I thought I'd toss out my
                        >immediate thoughts/reaction
                        >Kirk

                        Kirk:

                        As far as the measurements go I am many years in the engineering and have
                        cleaned up the booboos of many of my colleagues not to mention having
                        several dozen of my own designs out there... I was not making more then
                        "lets see if it is working" measurements... The numbers aren't even
                        written down yet. But thanks for the suggestions there are so many who
                        simply don't know about this.

                        Al to Cu at both ends. Water cooling is the basis for the bird. We are
                        attempting to make usable power from the difference between ambient
                        temperature and dew point. So we must be prepared to expose the thing to
                        extreme damp if not totally submerge part of the system.
                        I have not ventured into the water cooling yet... However it has been very
                        humid in North Texas lately and as I work my hobbies in the garage there
                        just may be a chemical thing going on that I had not considered. I will
                        have to try testing in dry air.

                        For now I need to call it a night... and didn't Boyd say something about
                        the list being slow????

                        Cheers



                        >-----Original Message-----
                        >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                        >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:47 PM
                        >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                        >
                        >
                        >Kirk:
                        >
                        >I have ben using a Copper foil pressed between two aluminum plates. (A
                        >choice of conveyance for a HAM) I squish the foil between the plates and
                        >heat it with a bolt on 25W resister. Using 10W electrical heat source
                        >offers me those readings. I misquote the power a bit... The .33V is
                        >open circuit and the 10A is shorted. It is not a real power reading and
                        >actually smacks a bit of the old OU tricks. I am sorry the delta T was
                        >about 15 degrees F ( I think) when that reading was taken.... My FET
                        >circuit runs on a little less then 3mw with a maximum switching frequency
                        >of about 90KHz
                        >
                        >Give me some time to do this correctly and maybe a little help with the
                        >thermal couples and I will be able to offer some real numbers. Also
                        >drawings and circuit diagrams.
                        >
                        >I think the more of us that learn how to make usable electrical power from
                        >small gradients the better. This will add a skill that will likely make us
                        >valuable in the future. Beyond the fact of proving we can do this with
                        >water cooling.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >At 03:03 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                        > >What are you using to get 330 mV at 10 A ? And what delta T?
                        > >
                        > >Kirk
                        > >
                        > >-----Original Message-----
                        > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                        > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 2:50 PM
                        > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >Kirk:
                        > >
                        > >I have found that Peltier chips do produce a goodly amount of power but
                        > >they are optimized for cooling. The voltage and current returned is only
                        a
                        > >tiny fraction of what it takes to operate the device. A 15V 150W chip
                        that
                        > >I have requires a huge delta T in order to push out a wimpy 1V.
                        > >
                        > >If more efficient materials (optimized for generating power) where used
                        in
                        > >the same manner (stacked in an array like a Peltier.) Then maybe we
                        could
                        > >get the voltage that we need.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >At 12:24 PM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                        > > >Sure you are not using a commercial peltier array and not 2 wires, a
                        > > >thermocouple?
                        > > >I don't think I have the right picture here.
                        > > >
                        > > >I purchased a used array from All Electronics and have been meaning to
                        >play
                        > > >with it but have not yet had time.
                        > > >
                        > > >Transforming low voltages. At very low voltages it becomes very
                        difficult
                        > >to
                        > > >retain efficiency. How about more devices/couples in series to get you
                        up
                        > >to
                        > > >higher voltage? (like 7 of what you have?)A reference on lead/acid
                        cells
                        > > >claimed 95% efficiency when charge/discharge was <50 milliseconds.
                        Sounds
                        > > >like a better component to use than a capacitor at high currents. A
                        > > >capacitor charge pump with enough inductance into switch to save losses
                        >at
                        > > >Ton ramp and then saturate allowing rapid transfer once device is on.
                        >These
                        > > >FETs are fairly fast and I saw one the other day with .008 ohms which
                        is
                        > > >pretty good.
                        > > >
                        > > >Kirk
                        > > >KC7THL
                        > > >
                        > > >-----Original Message-----
                        > > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                        > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 11:12 AM
                        > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        > > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >At 10:25 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                        > > > >The electrical resistance of the wire is high if you mean a genuine
                        > > > >thermocouple. If the wire were the size of rebar and the length
                        perhaps
                        >3
                        > > > >feet to get a reasonable cold end you would see appreciable power.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Kirk
                        > > >
                        > > >I am seeing applicable power in the raw measurements. The trouble is
                        > > >converting that power into something usable. 10A at .33V is about 3.3W
                        >but
                        > > >by the time you kick that up to say 13.5 V your 3.3W becomes less then
                        a
                        > > >watt... full system in this case for a 10W input is less then 10%
                        > > >
                        > > >I am using a hybrid switch method known as a current pump. By
                        >momentarily
                        > > >sorting the output and breaking the short you experience an inductive
                        >spike
                        > > >which will climb in voltage until the coil energy has been used. I
                        fear
                        > > >the problem is not in my conductors 3/8 Cu tubes. Adding additional
                        >FETs
                        > > >in parallel will likely bring more efficiency. Also a change to a
                        more
                        > > >efficient coupling material will help. Cu plate pressed between two
                        > > >aluminum plates is my current method. This offers enough power to
                        > > >expariment with increasing the switcher efficiency...
                        > > >
                        > > >By the way... It does free run given a delta T of less then 2 degrees
                        > > >F. So if I can make power from this then we are in business.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > >-----Original Message-----
                        > > > >From: Charles Ford [mailto:cjford1@...]
                        > > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:12 AM
                        > > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > >Subject: RE: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >Hay... On the subject of abysmal efficiency I have ben doing more
                        work
                        > >with
                        > > > >thermal couples. I have a way to directly test the efficiency of the
                        > > > >thermal coupling converter and I can now define the efficiency of
                        each
                        > >sub
                        > > > >part of my system. :-) the full system efficiency of which is
                        > > > >abysmal :-( Ah but it is a young art.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >At 08:17 AM 7/6/01 -0600, you wrote:
                        > > > > >There is a URL in archives.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >If there is interest in building an efficient one we can discuss
                        the
                        > > > > >modifications. As was made its thermal efficiency is abysmal. The
                        >claim
                        > > >of
                        > > > > >high efficiency has problems.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >A systematic method when doing design helps me. Each area of loss
                        is
                        > > > >defined
                        > > > > >and methods to reduce it to as small as reasonable are listed. Then
                        > > >design
                        > > > > >is penciled.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >Kirk
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >-----Original Message-----
                        > > > > >From: The Dragon [mailto:brunner.i@...]
                        > > > > >Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 6:35 AM
                        > > > > >To: AMBIENTENERGY@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > >Subject: [AMBIENTENERGY] did someone mention Minto wheels???
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >Does anyone have any detailed plans of Mr. Minto's small
                        >demonstration
                        > > > >wheel
                        > > > > >or even the giant one that was featured in Mother Earth News? {at
                        >least
                        > >I
                        > > > > >know those two worked}I've looked at some plans but they are always
                        > > >lacking
                        > > > > >some details....one even mentioned playing with valve timing when
                        it
                        > >did
                        > > > >not
                        > > > > >show any valves at all in the diagram! Any info would be
                        appreciated.
                        > > > > >The Dragon
                        > > > > >PS: also looking for a self starting LTD Stirling engine design.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
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