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working dogs and hip dysplasia

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  • L. Rorem
    I m looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a herding-breed dog that is dysplastic. He has been on sheep a couple of times and was very high
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 2, 2007
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      I'm looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a
      herding-breed dog that is dysplastic. He has been on sheep a couple of
      times and was very high drive on them. In considering whether to
      continue, she is wondering if herding would be risky for him. The vet
      told her no agility or flyball, as that would probably expose his joints
      to too much pounding. The vet thought herding might be ok, but probably
      doesn't see too many dogs that actively herd.

      On this dog, the right side is the worst with only about 40% in the
      socket. She said that most of the time he is fine, but she is concerned
      about stress.

      What is are some considerations with regard to dysplastic dogs and
      herding work?

      Linda R.
      Pacifica, CA
    • NancyLiptak@aol.com
      1.? The?dog should be kept lean -- ribs should easily be felt with very little (or no) fat covering. 2.? The dog should be on a daily glucosamine/chondroitin
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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        1.? The?dog should be kept lean -- ribs should easily be felt with very little (or no) fat covering.

        2.? The dog should be on a daily glucosamine/chondroitin supplement -- for the rest of its life.? If symptomatic for hip displasia, MSM should also be considered.? The owner's vet can provide guidamce.

        3.? The dog should be conditioned so that it can easily jog 2-3 miles without any lameness or pain before starting herding.? Swimming is an excellent exercise.? Running UP stairs, hills, etc is a great conditioner for hind limbs.

        Any on-going incidence of pain or lameness should be evaluated by the dog's? vet.

        Nancy Liptak, RVT, CCRP
        (Certified Canine Rehabilitation Practitioner)




        -----Original Message-----
        From: L. Rorem <pacifica19@...>
        To: AHBA@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 2:34 am
        Subject: [AHBA] working dogs and hip dysplasia

























        I'm looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a

        herding-breed dog that is dysplastic. He has been on sheep a couple of

        times and was very high drive on them. In considering whether to

        continue, she is wondering if herding would be risky for him. The vet

        told her no agility or flyball, as that would probably expose his joints

        to too much pounding. The vet thought herding might be ok, but probably

        doesn't see too many dogs that actively herd.



        On this dog, the right side is the worst with only about 40% in the

        socket. She said that most of the time he is fine, but she is concerned

        about stress.



        What is are some considerations with regard to dysplastic dogs and

        herding work?



        Linda R.

        Pacifica, CA





















        ________________________________________________________________________
        Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com


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      • Larry & Sylvia Forster
        I would advise your friend NOT to continue with herding - the hips are exposed to a lot of twisting as the dog works on sheep and this in itself will put the
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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          I would advise your friend NOT to continue with herding - the hips are exposed to a lot of twisting as the dog works on sheep and this in itself will put the dog in a lot of pain and cause more deterioration of the hips. It would seem that the Vet has not observed dogs working sheep, there is pounding (i.e.in the outrun) but the twisting on top adds up to double trouble. I would also advise that this dog be neutered/spayed if not already done.
          Respectfully
          Sylvia Forster
          Castleton, Ontario. Canada

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: L. Rorem
          To: AHBA@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 2:34 AM
          Subject: [AHBA] working dogs and hip dysplasia


          I'm looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a
          herding-breed dog that is dysplastic. He has been on sheep a couple of
          times and was very high drive on them. In considering whether to
          continue, she is wondering if herding would be risky for him. The vet
          told her no agility or flyball, as that would probably expose his joints
          to too much pounding. The vet thought herding might be ok, but probably
          doesn't see too many dogs that actively herd.

          On this dog, the right side is the worst with only about 40% in the
          socket. She said that most of the time he is fine, but she is concerned
          about stress.

          What is are some considerations with regard to dysplastic dogs and
          herding work?

          Linda R.
          Pacifica, CA





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        • Peggy Richter
          ... I m looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a herding- breed dog that is dysplastic. ... What is are some considerations with regard to
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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            --- In AHBA@yahoogroups.com, "L. Rorem" <pacifica19@...> wrote:
            I'm looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a herding-
            breed dog that is dysplastic. ... What is are some considerations
            with regard to dysplastic dogs and herding work?

            ==years ago, there was an OES that was dysplastic that was run in
            herding - Apollo (you may remember him, Linda. He was at the famous
            Inyokern Airport trial). in dysplasia, it entirely depends on how bad
            the hips are and how much they interfere with reasonable movement.
            Some dogs with severe hips --the joints don't even make contact,
            which may cause less pain than where the hip joints grind in a "bad
            fit". Apollo's owner found that his dog had days when arthritis
            prevented him working and he had problems if the stock were extremely
            light and the dog had to run a lot -- but he ran Apollo in B and A
            courses and in ASCA.
            One of the primary concerns Apollo's owner mentioned to me was that
            he needed to keep the dog lean (less weight on the hips) and in very
            good condition as the muscles were doing some of the work that
            normally the hip joints would do.

            Peggy Richter
          • ali@bwbcs.com
            ... Is the dog symptomatic, or was this only found because of a routine xray? How old is the dog, and what is his current physical condition? All questions
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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              >
              > On this dog, the right side is the worst with only about 40% in the
              > socket. She said that most of the time he is fine, but she is concerned
              > about stress.
              >
              > What is are some considerations with regard to dysplastic dogs and
              > herding work?


              Is the dog symptomatic, or was this only found because of a routine xray?
              How old is the dog, and what is his current physical condition? All
              questions that would play a part in what I started asking of the dog if he
              were mine. It's very important to keep the dog fit and well muscled,
              which requires SOME kind of activity. I would personally say, given how
              most BCs do almost any activity, that herding would be a pretty good
              activity. If the dog is quite severe, I would try to teach him to stand,
              rather than lieing down on the stop. The good thing about herding vs
              other sports, is that once the dog has some training and time put in, he
              will slow down and work in a more relaxed manner. If the dog is severe
              and/or is already occassionally lame, I would be very watchful of the
              footing the dog herds in. Loose, lofty dirt or wet grass may increase the
              dog's chances of slipping and having to work his rear very hard to keep
              balanced, as well hilly/steep terrain. Another plus to herding is that is
              both physical AND mental. VS something like jogging on nice terrain or
              some kind of other mindless activity...

              Ali Curtis
              Black Water Border Collies
              Zuni, VA



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              > Linda R.
              > Pacifica, CA
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            • Wendy Roller
              In my experience, low level hobby herding on average difficulty to dog broken small stock was second only to swimming as a suitable exercise for a dog that
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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                In my experience, low level "hobby" herding on average difficulty to dog broken small stock was second only to swimming as a suitable exercise for a dog that enjoys it. One of my students had a dog with nearly no hip sockets on either side and she vastly enjoyed and benefited from herding.

                I recommend keeping the dog fit and lean, avoiding situations with bad footing (deep sand, or unstable footing where the dog could slip), glucosomine supplementation, and whatever additional help the vet can offer. Such as FHO (removal of the femerol head) or other surgeries, and sensible use of anti-inflammatories as perscribed.

                I cant help but push a little that the person explore the raw diet option. I have seen near miracles for dogs that were supposed to be chronically lame or arthritic.

                Though the dog should *not* be bred, the owner should carefully read the side effects of spay and neutering. (refer to the Laura Sanborn article on the CA 1634 bill sites) I have found it vastly more difficult to control the weight on my spayed dogs, and in human males, keeping testoterone levels at normal assists in the control of bone loss. There are real reasons for hormones, and if the dog's reproduction can be controlled without spay neuter it is worth researching if this is the best option.

                There are fates worse than death for an intelligent herding dog - and being kept swathed in bubble wrap lest he suffer some pain is vastly less preferred over sensible care and a full and active life. Controlled, sensible herding use is great option for a dog that would otherwise be quite limited.

                Wendy
              • ptseo@aol.com
                In a message dated 10/3/2007 12:35:25 AM Central Standard Time, ... I have had two sheepdogs with hip dysplasia. One had almost 50% gone on both hips.....she
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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                  In a message dated 10/3/2007 12:35:25 AM Central Standard Time,
                  pacifica19@... writes:

                  > What is are some considerations with regard to dysplastic dogs and
                  > herding work?

                  I have had two sheepdogs with hip dysplasia.

                  One had almost 50% gone on both hips.....she limped the rest of her life but
                  followed me everywhere. The other, I would say she had almost 80% gone one
                  both sides but she ran and played (with rest) and was quite active.

                  I would have to look at the dog's mind set about acitvity. The one who
                  seemed better off was actually happier following me around and learning little
                  tricks like opening doors, etc...we tried to keep her mind active and she liked
                  it. She was very smart and she knew it....she we tried to do things with her
                  that let her think...

                  The other whom I though we'd have to put down eventually was a very active
                  dog but she would take a time out sooner and just a little more often than the
                  others....she finally died of cancer when she was ten. I think she proved that
                  desire to be active is more important than the physical problems.

                  Btw, we had the head of the femur removed on both dogs.....one side only..the
                  symptomatic side...........rather than weigh them down with a steel
                  replacement........one was a Pyrenean Shepherd and the other a Sheltie...both rather
                  light weight as compared to the German Shepherds who usually get the metal
                  replacements....they might have lighter metal ones now with better results but this
                  was twenty years ago when the replacements were originally made for larger
                  dogs.....

                  Peggy Oba

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                  **************************************
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                • Terrasita Cuffie
                  Hi Linda: I started herding when Asta-GSD was 2. Soon after, the x-rays revealed that she was dysplastic in all four extremities but asymptomatic. She moved
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 3, 2007
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                    Hi Linda:

                    I started herding when Asta-GSD was 2. Soon after, the x-rays revealed that she was dysplastic in all four extremities but asymptomatic. She moved like a dream and could flat out cover. For our first B Course trial, she actually ran the sets to put the sheep through. I always felt that herding [weekly], helped maintain good muscle mass. I retired her when she was 5 and became symptomatic. The first sign was that she couldn't cover even in an arena. I didn't know about Adequan then but I would have started it when she was diagnosed. I would highly recommend this for your friend along with good trotting exercise and keeping him absolutely lean weight-wise. Trotting was Asta's preferred mode of travel although she could flat out boogie in the pasture if she had too. Also, a good supplement with glucosamine sulfate, chondroitin, MSM with an absorption component like maganese, bromelain and boswellia, is a must.

                    Asta had awesome talent and lived to work. The herding kept her in good shape. She loved cattle but I considered them two high risk. With arena herding, I think your friend's dog would be fine. Supplements and conditioning is the key.

                    Terrasita


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: L. Rorem <pacifica19@...>
                    To: AHBA@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, October 3, 2007 1:34:01 AM
                    Subject: [AHBA] working dogs and hip dysplasia

                    I'm looking for input on behalf of an acquaintance who has a
                    herding-breed dog that is dysplastic. He has been on sheep a couple of
                    times and was very high drive on them. In considering whether to
                    continue, she is wondering if herding would be risky for him. The vet
                    told her no agility or flyball, as that would probably expose his joints
                    to too much pounding. The vet thought herding might be ok, but probably
                    doesn't see too many dogs that actively herd.

                    On this dog, the right side is the worst with only about 40% in the
                    socket. She said that most of the time he is fine, but she is concerned
                    about stress.

                    What is are some considerations with regard to dysplastic dogs and
                    herding work?

                    Linda R.
                    Pacifica, CA




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • L. Rorem
                    Many thanks to all have provided information and comments. Linda R. Pacifica, CA
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 4, 2007
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                      Many thanks to all have provided information and comments.

                      Linda R.
                      Pacifica, CA

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                    • Ann Witte
                      Sorry to be so late in the discussion - I went to our Beardie National - long drive! My thoughts on this issue: (1) HD does not necessarily preclude some
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 11, 2007
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                        Sorry to be so late in the discussion - I went to our Beardie National - long drive!

                        My thoughts on this issue:

                        (1) HD does not necessarily preclude some herding activity but it will affect the dog's ability to use one flank well. All dogs are right- or left-footed anyway. Some weakness on one side will make it harder to make certain turns. Don't ask for the harder turns to be tight or fast

                        (2) Speed control will be critical - train the dog to work always at a walk or trot - less stress on joints

                        (3) Keep the weight way down - very lean without interfering with muscle mass

                        (4) Help the dog to build up his body gradually by slowly lengthening the training / work sessions from a few minutes

                        In general, the smaller the dog, the less effect HD will have on it. EG, Shelties don't seem very bothered by HD compared to GSDs or Bouviers. I know of one Beardie with severe HD that could work comfortably up to age 7 but then she began to exhibit evidence of discomfort so she's been "retired".

                        Regardless, if the dog enjoys herding, the trainer just needs to be aware of the minute evidences of pain and stop before the pain gets worse.

                        Ann & The Beardies, DC Rowan, HC Tag, Ch. Bean HX, Ch. Quill HS, Ch. Fire HS, Ch. Jacob, Vic HI & baby Sean



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