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Re: [AAT] Aquarboreal hominoids? - Re: google "Sheephead Fish" images

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  • Marc Verhaegen
    4) All hominoids had aquarboreal ancestors. Ok, you can t just throw something like that out there. I really need you to elaborate on that point. You mean all
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 18, 2012
      4) All hominoids had aquarboreal ancestors.

      Ok, you can't just throw something like that out there. I really need you to
      elaborate on that point. You mean all apes had aquarboreal ancestry? Just
      what exactly would that be based from?


      I don't just throw it out, Chris, please google "aquarboreal", I'll send you
      separately some info.

      --marc

      ______


      --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com> , Marc Verhaegen
      <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
      >
      > Chris,
      >
      > 1) This is not about aquaticism, but about diet.
      > 2) Hardy's method is based on convergences: birds & bats are completely
      > different animals, but both have wings. In fact, the further related, the
      > more telling the converngences are.
      > 3) AFAICS the sheepshead's incisors are not very shovel-like, but have
      > straight (& very sharp?) edges?
      > 4) All hominoids had aquarboreal ancestors.
      > 5) The humanlike incisors have nothing to do with genetic drift, but are
      > partly convergent to hominoid incisors.
      >
      > --marc
      >
      > Van: <c.h.engelbrecht@...>
      > Beantwoorden - Aan: "AAT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com> "
      <AAT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com> >
      > Datum: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 16:24:58 -0000
      > Aan: "AAT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com> "
      <AAT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com> >
      > Onderwerp: [AAT] Re: google "Sheephead Fish" images: see photo of teeth
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > I think this is where we need to be wary about treading into confirmation
      > bias. I don't know if that was your intention with posting this, Marc, but I
      > don't see a correlation between the sheephead developing (very) human-like
      > teeth, and then some connection to a watery life (as AAT suggests with
      > humans).
      > One, it's a fish, not a mammal like humans, so the phylogenic backgrounds of
      > these two taxa are completely different. Two, the general morphology of Homo
      > teeth is to a far extent shared with the other apes, eg. in terms of shovel
      > incissors (which are visible on sheepheads as well), and AAT-proponents are
      > generally not arguing that the phylogeny of other apes is related to water
      > (quite contrary). That the sheephead aparently have developed something
      > quite similar as apes could be some kind of genetic drift and not a
      > convergent evolution which would be related to water in humans.
      >
      > (But again, I don't know, if that was what you hinted at, Marc.)
      >
      > Chris Engelbrecht
      >
      > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com>
      <mailto:AAT%40yahoogroups.com> , Marc Verhaegen
      > <m_verhaegen@> wrote:
      > >
      > > The sheepshead, Archosargus probatocephalus, is a marine fish that grows
      > > to 76 cm), but commonly reaches 25-50 cm.
      > > It is deep & compressed in body shape, with 5 to 6 dark bars on the side
      > > of the body over a gray background. It has sharp dorsal spines. Its diet
      > > consists of oysters, clams & other bivalves & barnacles, fiddler crabs &
      > > other crustaceans. It has a hard mouth, with several rows of stubby teeth,
      > > which help crush the shells of prey ...
      > >
      > >
      > > (enamel?? --mv)





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • terry
      Marc, Reading of this, I recalled your post on fish molars and wanted to link them in one thread for easier reference. Similar teeth for similar foods. Black
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 10, 2013
        Marc,
        Reading of this, I recalled your post on fish molars and wanted to link them in one thread for easier reference. Similar teeth for similar foods.

        Black Carp
        The black carp (Mylopharyngodon piceus) is one of the five invasive fish species from Asia that are causing such trouble in the Mississippi River system.
        The black carp has pharyngeal teeth (throat teeth) that are large and similar in appearance to human molars, an adaptation for crushing the shells of snails and mollusks.

        >http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?speciesID=573<

        A search for black carp teeth will find several photos.

        Terry


        --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
        >
        > The sheepshead, Archosargus probatocephalus, is a marine fish that grows
        > to 76 cm), but commonly reaches 25-50 cm.
        > It is deep & compressed in body shape, with 5 to 6 dark bars on the side
        > of the body over a gray background. It has sharp dorsal spines. Its diet
        > consists of oysters, clams & other bivalves & barnacles, fiddler crabs &
        > other crustaceans. It has a hard mouth, with several rows of stubby teeth,
        > which help crush the shells of prey ...
        >
        >
        > (enamel?? --mv)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Marc Verhaegen
        Marc, Reading of this, I recalled your post on fish molars and wanted to link them in one thread for easier reference. Similar teeth for similar foods. Black
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 11, 2013
          Marc,
          Reading of this, I recalled your post on fish molars and wanted to link
          them in one thread for easier reference. Similar teeth for similar foods.
          Black Carp
          The black carp (Mylopharyngodon piceus) is one of the 5 invasive fish
          species from Asia that are causing such trouble in the Mississippi River
          system.
          The black carp has pharyngeal teeth (throat teeth) that are large and
          similar in appearance to human molars, an adaptation for crushing the
          shells of snails and mollusks.
          >http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?speciesID=573
          A search for black carp teeth will find several photos.
          Terry

          Thanks a lot, Terry.
          A.Walker in our TREE paper: "If, for example, a mammalogist who knows
          nothing about hominids were asked which mammalian molar most resembled
          those of Australopithecus, the answer would probably be the molars of the
          sea otter (Enhydra lutris). This species possesses small anterior teeth,
          and large, flat molars with thick enamel." (Walker believes the thick
          enamel in sea otters may not be for cracking shells, but for the
          occasional hard inclusions inside the shells which would otherwise damage
          the dentition. It should be noted that seaweed consumers might also need
          thick enamel because seaweed often houses small molluscs.
          A.Shabel also sees parallels between the dentitions of (some) apiths &
          durophagous Carnivora (some mungoes, sea-otters etc.).
          Whereas E.African apiths (afarensis-aethiopicus-boisei) seem to have eaten
          a lot of papyrus sedges in wetlands, the S.African apiths
          (africanjus-robustus) were probably more omnivorous and also ate a lot of
          hard-shelled foods they found amid reeds etc.

          --marc






          >
          > The sheepshead, Archosargus probatocephalus, is a marine fish that grows
          > to 76 cm), but commonly reaches 25-50 cm.
          > It is deep & compressed in body shape, with 5 to 6 dark bars on the side
          > of the body over a gray background. It has sharp dorsal spines. Its diet
          > consists of oysters, clams & other bivalves & barnacles, fiddler crabs &
          > other crustaceans. It has a hard mouth, with several rows of stubby
          >teeth,
          > which help crush the shells of prey ...
          >
          >
          > (enamel?? --mv)
        • ChakAzul
          Human vs black carp molar: http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=573 [The black carp s] pharyngeal teeth (throat teeth) are large and
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 13, 2013
            Human vs black carp molar:

            http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/factsheet.aspx?SpeciesID=573

            "[The black carp's] pharyngeal teeth (throat teeth) are large and similar in appearance to human molars, an adaptation for crushing the shells of mollusks"

            Human vs sea otter molar:

            http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/notrocketscience/2009/04/13/tiny-built-in-cracks-stop-teeth-from-shattering/

            "Humans aren't alone in this – Chai compared out teeth to those of sea otters, and found the same adaptive features under a microscope. It may seem like an odd pairing, but we share a fondness for hard-shelled foods with sea otters – we like nuts and seeds, while they can't get enough of shellfish. These similarities are reflected in our teeth."

            So that's some kind of "curse" on most scientists -- even if you found convergence between human and marine creatures, you still have to twist the argument and say something like "because we like nuts and seeds". Sigh...

            If our teeth was really evolved for eating nuts and seeds, why no similarity with other nut/seed-eater, like squirrels or chipmunks?

            Cheers,
            Chak


            --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
            >
            > Marc,
            > Reading of this, I recalled your post on fish molars and wanted to link
            > them in one thread for easier reference. Similar teeth for similar foods.
            > Black Carp
            > The black carp (Mylopharyngodon piceus) is one of the 5 invasive fish
            > species from Asia that are causing such trouble in the Mississippi River
            > system.
            > The black carp has pharyngeal teeth (throat teeth) that are large and
            > similar in appearance to human molars, an adaptation for crushing the
            > shells of snails and mollusks.
            > >http://nas.er.usgs.gov/queries/FactSheet.aspx?speciesID=573
            > A search for black carp teeth will find several photos.
            > Terry
            >
            > Thanks a lot, Terry.
            > A.Walker in our TREE paper: "If, for example, a mammalogist who knows
            > nothing about hominids were asked which mammalian molar most resembled
            > those of Australopithecus, the answer would probably be the molars of the
            > sea otter (Enhydra lutris). This species possesses small anterior teeth,
            > and large, flat molars with thick enamel." (Walker believes the thick
            > enamel in sea otters may not be for cracking shells, but for the
            > occasional hard inclusions inside the shells which would otherwise damage
            > the dentition. It should be noted that seaweed consumers might also need
            > thick enamel because seaweed often houses small molluscs.
            > A.Shabel also sees parallels between the dentitions of (some) apiths &
            > durophagous Carnivora (some mungoes, sea-otters etc.).
            > Whereas E.African apiths (afarensis-aethiopicus-boisei) seem to have eaten
            > a lot of papyrus sedges in wetlands, the S.African apiths
            > (africanjus-robustus) were probably more omnivorous and also ate a lot of
            > hard-shelled foods they found amid reeds etc.
            >
            > --marc
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > The sheepshead, Archosargus probatocephalus, is a marine fish that grows
            > > to 76 cm), but commonly reaches 25-50 cm.
            > > It is deep & compressed in body shape, with 5 to 6 dark bars on the side
            > > of the body over a gray background. It has sharp dorsal spines. Its diet
            > > consists of oysters, clams & other bivalves & barnacles, fiddler crabs &
            > > other crustaceans. It has a hard mouth, with several rows of stubby
            > >teeth,
            > > which help crush the shells of prey ...
            > >
            > >
            > > (enamel?? --mv)
            >
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