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a moment to consider

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  • DDeden
    http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php Humans are very strange apes. Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe,
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 29, 2008
      http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php

      Humans are very strange apes.

      Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our closest
      kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
      symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...

      occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
      plucks and guides a mouse,
      and pecks at a keyboard
      composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
      with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
      to communicate imaginary thoughts
      about what is happening billions of light years away
      from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
      we call Earth.

      There is such an incredible leap in mental social powers in this
      hominoid.

      Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
      brain-power foods, complex environment but generally non-threatening
      for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island effect, but
      perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?


      Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no doubt
      at all.

      But,

      WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?

      Seriously.

      No other life form has done anything comparable.


      And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
      often so incredibly stupid,

      physically primitive yet super-derived,

      with so many individuals afraid to swim
      yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans

      some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or apes

      Our species got a software upgrade obviously

      yet still susceptible to viruses


      Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
      inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal lifestyles
      and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.

      Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade, ritual and
      communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
      sapiens population has existed for very long periods,

      and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The other apes
      were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.

      The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like calls,
      a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
      coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially probably
      didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
      harvesting and nutritional variety.

      Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.

      Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the source
      as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
      communication, trust, trade.

      Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
      ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
      reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
      long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons

      Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow running,
      slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
      learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or moon.


      I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the process of
      what happened.

      Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major steps
      that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some always
      will, which is ok.

      The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates me, as
      I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove what now
      appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.

      I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
      enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that is less
      significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
      unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
      difference.

      My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
      social equity (rituals, funds, status).

      School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and Discovering,
      no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.

      I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
      foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and 2,000
      year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood forest, and
      incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
      construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven in a 5
      pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
      filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole, etc.

      Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
      generous.

      http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZhIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F

      peace & peanuts

      DD
    • Marc Verhaegen
      ... Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time, but if we analyse the differences with apes into more elementary pieces, we find parallels in
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 29, 2008
        > ... Humans are very strange apes.

        Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time, but if we
        analyse the differences with apes into more elementary pieces, we find
        parallels in other animals, eg:
        <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New directions in
        palaeoanthropology.pdf>
        So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not unexplainable). A lot
        of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks, elephants. Hippos are strange
        whales, platypuses are strange mammals etc.
        In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but in times of great changes
        (ice times) it's not unexpected that some animals can undergo great changes.
        (Whether strongly-changing animals will generally survive long is not so
        likely IMO.)

        > ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social powers in this
        > hominoid.

        IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have no evidence that
        chimps have less insight/feeling in the psyche of the members of their group
        or in the relations between these members than we have.

        > ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?

        A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very importantly
        something at the waterside, but the exact details are still uncertain.

        > ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
        > enquiry.

        Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible answers
        to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see answered.
        IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us different
        form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems in human
        evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or at least
        in the field of human evolution, DD?

        > http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
        >
        > Humans are very strange apes.
        >
        > Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our closest
        > kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
        > symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
        >
        > occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
        > plucks and guides a mouse,
        > and pecks at a keyboard
        > composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
        > with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
        > to communicate imaginary thoughts
        > about what is happening billions of light years away
        > from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
        > we call Earth.
        >

        >
        > Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
        > brain-power foods, complex environment but generally non-threatening
        > for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island effect, but
        > perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
        >
        > Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no doubt
        > at all.
        >
        > But,
        >
        > WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
        >
        > Seriously.
        >
        > No other life form has done anything comparable.
        >
        > And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
        > often so incredibly stupid,
        >
        > physically primitive yet super-derived,
        >
        > with so many individuals afraid to swim
        > yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
        >
        > some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or apes
        >
        > Our species got a software upgrade obviously
        >
        > yet still susceptible to viruses
        >
        > Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
        > inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal lifestyles
        > and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
        >
        > Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade, ritual and
        > communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
        > sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
        >
        > and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The other apes
        > were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
        >
        > The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like calls,
        > a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
        > coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially probably
        > didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
        > harvesting and nutritional variety.
        >
        > Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
        >
        > Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the source
        > as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
        > communication, trust, trade.
        >
        > Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
        > ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
        > reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
        > long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
        >
        > Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow running,
        > slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
        > learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or moon.
        >
        > I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the process of
        > what happened.
        >
        > Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major steps
        > that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some always
        > will, which is ok.
        >
        > The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates me, as
        > I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove what now
        > appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
        >
        > I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
        > enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that is less
        > significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
        > unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
        > difference.
        >
        > My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
        > social equity (rituals, funds, status).
        >
        > School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and Discovering,
        > no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
        >
        > I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
        > foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and 2,000
        > year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood forest, and
        > incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
        > construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven in a 5
        > pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
        > filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole, etc.
        >
        > Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
        > generous.
        >
        > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
        > hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F

        :-)

        > peace & peanuts
        >
        > DD

        --Marc
      • m3dodds
        ... DD. Wouldn t it more accurate to say that something very strange happened to the Human ape? Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes with
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 31, 2008
          --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
          >
          > > ... Humans are very strange apes.
          >


          DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
          very strange happened to the Human ape?

          Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
          with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
          an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
          that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
          ancestors spent on the shore.


          But some awkward questions remain, like ...

          Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
          in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
          forest when they split from the chimps?

          Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
          largely nomadic?

          Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk upright
          are Homo the only one to do so, full time?

          An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
          did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
          powerful brain?







          > Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
          > but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
          > elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
          > <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
          > directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
          > So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
          > unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
          > elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
          > mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
          > in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
          > some animals can undergo great changes. (Whether strongly-changing >
          animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)
          >
          > > ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
          > powers in this hominoid.
          >
          >
          > IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
          > no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
          > psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
          > between these members than we have.



          IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
          wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
          species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
          of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
          sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life).




          ---m3d







          > > ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
          >
          > A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very importantly
          > something at the waterside, but the exact details are still uncertain.
          >
          > > ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
          chapter of
          > > enquiry.
          >
          > Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible
          answers
          > to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see
          answered.
          > IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
          different
          > form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems
          in human
          > evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or
          at least
          > in the field of human evolution, DD?
          >
          > >
          http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
          > >
          > > Humans are very strange apes.
          > >
          > > Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our closest
          > > kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
          > > symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
          > >
          > > occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
          > > plucks and guides a mouse,
          > > and pecks at a keyboard
          > > composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
          > > with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
          > > to communicate imaginary thoughts
          > > about what is happening billions of light years away
          > > from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
          > > we call Earth.
          > >
          >
          > >
          > > Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
          > > brain-power foods, complex environment but generally non-threatening
          > > for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island effect, but
          > > perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
          > >
          > > Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no doubt
          > > at all.
          > >
          > > But,
          > >
          > > WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
          > >
          > > Seriously.
          > >
          > > No other life form has done anything comparable.
          > >
          > > And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
          > > often so incredibly stupid,
          > >
          > > physically primitive yet super-derived,
          > >
          > > with so many individuals afraid to swim
          > > yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
          > >
          > > some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or apes
          > >
          > > Our species got a software upgrade obviously
          > >
          > > yet still susceptible to viruses
          > >
          > > Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
          > > inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal lifestyles
          > > and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
          > >
          > > Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade, ritual and
          > > communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
          > > sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
          > >
          > > and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The other apes
          > > were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
          > >
          > > The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like calls,
          > > a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
          > > coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially probably
          > > didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
          > > harvesting and nutritional variety.
          > >
          > > Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
          > >
          > > Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the source
          > > as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
          > > communication, trust, trade.
          > >
          > > Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
          > > ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
          > > reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
          > > long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
          > >
          > > Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow running,
          > > slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
          > > learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or moon.
          > >
          > > I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the process of
          > > what happened.
          > >
          > > Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major steps
          > > that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some always
          > > will, which is ok.
          > >
          > > The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates me, as
          > > I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove what now
          > > appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
          > >
          > > I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
          > > enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that is less
          > > significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
          > > unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
          > > difference.
          > >
          > > My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
          > > social equity (rituals, funds, status).
          > >
          > > School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and Discovering,
          > > no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
          > >
          > > I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
          > > foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and 2,000
          > > year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood forest, and
          > > incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
          > > construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven in a 5
          > > pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
          > > filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole, etc.
          > >
          > > Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
          > > generous.
          > >
          > >
          http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
          > > hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
          >
          > :-)
          >
          > > peace & peanuts
          > >
          > > DD
          >
          > --Marc
          >
        • Marc Verhaegen
          ... Yes, that is what DD means I d think. ... There were probably a lot of coastal hominids (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or pongids, but probably we wiped the rest
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 31, 2008
            DD:
            >>> ... Humans are very strange apes.

            > DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
            > very strange happened to the Human ape?

            Yes, that is what DD means I'd think.

            > Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
            > with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
            > an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
            > that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
            > ancestors spent on the shore.
            > But some awkward questions remain, like ...
            > Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
            > in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
            > forest when they split from the chimps?

            There were probably a lot of coastal hominids (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or
            pongids, but probably we wiped the rest out.

            > Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
            > largely nomadic?

            I don't know about you, m3d, but I am not nomadic at all. But if humans are
            more nomadic than other apes, this might have to do with our
            post-aquarboreal lifestyle (following coastlines & rivers inland etc.).

            > Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk upright
            > are Homo the only one to do so, full time?

            "Full time", because of our evol.history:
            - upright spine since Moroto 20 Ma cf.Filler,
            - bipedal since gibbons (split c 18-16 Ma),
            - head-spine-legs on 1 line = swimming.
            "The only one": rest wiped out?

            > An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
            > did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
            > powerful brain?

            Humans have brains 3 x larger than apes, but that is not unexpected:
            aquatics often have brains +- 3 x larger than related terrestrials.

            >> Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
            >> but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
            >> elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
            >> <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
            >> directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
            >> So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
            >> unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
            >> elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
            >> mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
            >> in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
            >> some animals can undergo great changes.
            >> (Whether strongly-changing >
            >> animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)

            >>> ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
            >>> powers in this hominoid.

            >> IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
            >> no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
            >> psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
            >> between these members than we have.

            > IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
            > wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
            > species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
            > of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
            > sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life). ---m3d

            We are curious animals, but so is my dog when I see him sniffing around.
            That we are probably more curious in many instances than most other spp (but
            what about, eg, dolphins & elephants?) might be due to our very big brain,
            to language (+ the accumulated knowledge) & to our abundant leisure time -
            all these factors have logical possible explanations IMO.

            --Marc

            _____


            >>> ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
            >>
            >> A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very importantly
            >> something at the waterside, but the exact details are still uncertain.
            >>
            >>> ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
            > chapter of
            >>> enquiry.
            >>
            >> Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible
            > answers
            >> to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see
            > answered.
            >> IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
            > different
            >> form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems
            > in human
            >> evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or
            > at least
            >> in the field of human evolution, DD?
            >>
            >>>
            > http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
            >>>
            >>> Humans are very strange apes.
            >>>
            >>> Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our closest
            >>> kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
            >>> symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
            >>>
            >>> occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
            >>> plucks and guides a mouse,
            >>> and pecks at a keyboard
            >>> composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
            >>> with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
            >>> to communicate imaginary thoughts
            >>> about what is happening billions of light years away
            >>> from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
            >>> we call Earth.
            >>>
            >>
            >>>
            >>> Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
            >>> brain-power foods, complex environment but generally non-threatening
            >>> for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island effect, but
            >>> perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
            >>>
            >>> Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no doubt
            >>> at all.
            >>>
            >>> But,
            >>>
            >>> WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
            >>>
            >>> Seriously.
            >>>
            >>> No other life form has done anything comparable.
            >>>
            >>> And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
            >>> often so incredibly stupid,
            >>>
            >>> physically primitive yet super-derived,
            >>>
            >>> with so many individuals afraid to swim
            >>> yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
            >>>
            >>> some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or apes
            >>>
            >>> Our species got a software upgrade obviously
            >>>
            >>> yet still susceptible to viruses
            >>>
            >>> Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
            >>> inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal lifestyles
            >>> and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
            >>>
            >>> Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade, ritual and
            >>> communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
            >>> sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
            >>>
            >>> and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The other apes
            >>> were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
            >>>
            >>> The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like calls,
            >>> a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
            >>> coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially probably
            >>> didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
            >>> harvesting and nutritional variety.
            >>>
            >>> Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
            >>>
            >>> Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the source
            >>> as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
            >>> communication, trust, trade.
            >>>
            >>> Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
            >>> ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
            >>> reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
            >>> long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
            >>>
            >>> Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow running,
            >>> slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
            >>> learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or moon.
            >>>
            >>> I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the process of
            >>> what happened.
            >>>
            >>> Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major steps
            >>> that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some always
            >>> will, which is ok.
            >>>
            >>> The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates me, as
            >>> I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove what now
            >>> appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
            >>>
            >>> I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
            >>> enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that is less
            >>> significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
            >>> unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
            >>> difference.
            >>>
            >>> My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
            >>> social equity (rituals, funds, status).
            >>>
            >>> School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and Discovering,
            >>> no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
            >>>
            >>> I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
            >>> foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and 2,000
            >>> year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood forest, and
            >>> incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
            >>> construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven in a 5
            >>> pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
            >>> filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole, etc.
            >>>
            >>> Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
            >>> generous.
            >>>
            >>>
            > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
            >>> hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
            >>
            >> :-)
            >>
            >>> peace & peanuts
            >>>
            >>> DD
            >>
            >> --Marc
          • m3dodds
            ... Probably there were wet apes in the forest many times over the last twenty odd million years ... not so certain on the other hand that many of them
            Message 5 of 9 , Nov 1, 2008
              --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
              >
              > DD:
              > >>> ... Humans are very strange apes.
              >
              > > DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
              > > very strange happened to the Human ape?
              >
              > Yes, that is what DD means I'd think.
              >
              > > Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
              > > with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
              > > an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
              > > that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
              > > ancestors spent on the shore.
              > > But some awkward questions remain, like ...
              > > Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
              > > in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
              > > forest when they split from the chimps?
              >
              > There were probably a lot of coastal hominids
              > (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or pongids, but probably
              > we wiped the rest out.
              >

              Probably there were 'wet apes' in the forest many
              times over the last twenty odd million years ...
              not so certain on the other hand that many of them
              abandoned the forest, for the coast, to the extent
              Homo appears to have done since the LCA(the split
              with the chimps).

              (not yet convinced, on 'floresiensis')




              > > Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
              > > largely nomadic?
              >
              > I don't know about you, m3d, but I am not nomadic at all.
              > But if humans are more nomadic than other apes, this might
              > have to do with our post-aquarboreal lifestyle (following
              > coastlines & rivers inland etc.).
              >


              These days I am too settled in my ways, but as a
              young man with no commitments I did seriously think
              of moving to the other side of the world, namely
              New Zealand.

              When it comes to making a comparison between Homo
              and chimps, the difference is even more obvious, the
              chimps stayed put whilst Homo apparently left Africa
              at the earliest available opportunity ...

              If for example Homo was absent from mainland Africa
              between three and four million years ago, when the
              virus spread among the gorillas and the chimps, then
              Homo must have began leaving Africa within hundreds
              thousand years of the P/H split.

              Even if that were not the case, there is H.erectus
              who after a abrupt emergence, turns up in Africa,
              China and Java almost 'overnight' ...




              > > Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk
              > > upright are Homo the only one to do so, full time?
              >
              > "Full time", because of our evol.history:
              > - upright spine since Moroto 20 Ma cf.Filler,
              > - bipedal since gibbons (split c 18-16 Ma),
              > - head-spine-legs on 1 line = swimming.


              Yes.
              But, that same opportunity was available to all
              the other apes, but they appear to remained in
              the forest and adapted their gait to the niche
              they have occupied, in the forest. Homo on the
              other hand, walked out of the forest, down onto
              the shore, and never returned.


              (Upright Ape - videos)
              The Upright Ape: Hominiform Progression
              http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZMt5PXIuc





              > "The only one": rest wiped out?
              >

              If that were the case, early Homo seems to have
              been pretty effective in getting rid
              of the competition.

              The only other we know about, were the a'piths
              who seemed to have wobbled from tree to tree
              on two legs, in the forest.





              > > An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
              > > did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
              > > powerful brain?
              >
              > Humans have brains 3 x larger than apes, but that is
              > not unexpected: aquatics often have brains +- 3 x larger
              > than related terrestrials.
              >


              Then again Homo has not been an aquatic mammal, we
              gained our 'large' brain on the shore.



              > >> Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
              > >> but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
              > >> elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
              > >> <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
              > >> directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
              > >> So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
              > >> unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
              > >> elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
              > >> mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
              > >> in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
              > >> some animals can undergo great changes.
              > >> (Whether strongly-changing >
              > >> animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)
              >
              > >>> ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
              > >>> powers in this hominoid.
              >
              > >> IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
              > >> no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
              > >> psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
              > >> between these members than we have.
              >
              > > IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
              > > wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
              > > species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
              > > of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
              > > sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life). ---m3d
              >
              > We are curious animals, but so is my dog when I see him
              > sniffing around.

              Dogs live in a world dominated by scents, to them
              smell is everything.


              > That we are probably more curious in many instances
              > than most other spp (but what about, eg, dolphins &
              > elephants?) might be due to our very big brain,
              > to language (+ the accumulated knowledge) & to our
              > abundant leisure time - all these factors have logical
              > possible explanations IMO.
              >
              > --Marc



              Predators(lions) on the savanna, probably had more
              leisure time than our ancestors.

              Can't see an elephant or any other mammal calculating
              to the nth degree the distance around the equator, the
              orbit of an outer planet that can be seen by the naked
              human eye ... write and read music at mere five years
              of age(Mozart), or have Archimedes insight in how to
              test the density of pure gold.

              In evolutionary terms, we walk alone.


              ---m3d







              > >>> ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
              > >>
              > >> A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very
              importantly
              > >> something at the waterside, but the exact details are still
              uncertain.
              > >>
              > >>> ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
              > > chapter of
              > >>> enquiry.
              > >>
              > >> Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible
              > > answers
              > >> to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see
              > > answered.
              > >> IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
              > > different
              > >> form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems
              > > in human
              > >> evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or
              > > at least
              > >> in the field of human evolution, DD?
              > >>
              > >>>
              > >
              http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
              > >>>
              > >>> Humans are very strange apes.
              > >>>
              > >>> Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our
              closest
              > >>> kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
              > >>> symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
              > >>>
              > >>> occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
              > >>> plucks and guides a mouse,
              > >>> and pecks at a keyboard
              > >>> composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
              > >>> with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
              > >>> to communicate imaginary thoughts
              > >>> about what is happening billions of light years away
              > >>> from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
              > >>> we call Earth.
              > >>>
              > >>
              > >>>
              > >>> Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
              > >>> brain-power foods, complex environment but generally non-threatening
              > >>> for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island effect, but
              > >>> perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
              > >>>
              > >>> Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no doubt
              > >>> at all.
              > >>>
              > >>> But,
              > >>>
              > >>> WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
              > >>>
              > >>> Seriously.
              > >>>
              > >>> No other life form has done anything comparable.
              > >>>
              > >>> And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
              > >>> often so incredibly stupid,
              > >>>
              > >>> physically primitive yet super-derived,
              > >>>
              > >>> with so many individuals afraid to swim
              > >>> yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
              > >>>
              > >>> some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or apes
              > >>>
              > >>> Our species got a software upgrade obviously
              > >>>
              > >>> yet still susceptible to viruses
              > >>>
              > >>> Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
              > >>> inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal
              lifestyles
              > >>> and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
              > >>>
              > >>> Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade, ritual and
              > >>> communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
              > >>> sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
              > >>>
              > >>> and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The other apes
              > >>> were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
              > >>>
              > >>> The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like
              calls,
              > >>> a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
              > >>> coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially probably
              > >>> didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
              > >>> harvesting and nutritional variety.
              > >>>
              > >>> Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
              > >>>
              > >>> Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the
              source
              > >>> as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
              > >>> communication, trust, trade.
              > >>>
              > >>> Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
              > >>> ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
              > >>> reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
              > >>> long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
              > >>>
              > >>> Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow running,
              > >>> slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
              > >>> learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or
              moon.
              > >>>
              > >>> I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the
              process of
              > >>> what happened.
              > >>>
              > >>> Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major
              steps
              > >>> that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some always
              > >>> will, which is ok.
              > >>>
              > >>> The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates me, as
              > >>> I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove what now
              > >>> appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
              > >>>
              > >>> I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
              > >>> enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that
              is less
              > >>> significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
              > >>> unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
              > >>> difference.
              > >>>
              > >>> My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
              > >>> social equity (rituals, funds, status).
              > >>>
              > >>> School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and Discovering,
              > >>> no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
              > >>>
              > >>> I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
              > >>> foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and
              2,000
              > >>> year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood
              forest, and
              > >>> incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
              > >>> construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven in a 5
              > >>> pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
              > >>> filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole,
              etc.
              > >>>
              > >>> Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
              > >>> generous.
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >
              http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
              > >>> hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
              > >>
              > >> :-)
              > >>
              > >>> peace & peanuts
              > >>>
              > >>> DD
              > >>
              > >> --Marc
              >
            • Marc Verhaegen
              ... Hf lived on Flores, so they must have crossed the sea. ... Yes, moving away from your parents & establishing your own territory is seen in most territorial
              Message 6 of 9 , Nov 1, 2008
                DD:
                >>>>> ... Humans are very strange apes.

                m3d:
                >>> DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
                >>> very strange happened to the Human ape?

                MV:
                >> Yes, that is what DD means I'd think.

                >>> Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
                >>> with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
                >>> an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
                >>> that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
                >>> ancestors spent on the shore.
                >>> But some awkward questions remain, like ...
                >>> Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
                >>> in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
                >>> forest when they split from the chimps?

                >> There were probably a lot of coastal hominids
                >> (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or pongids, but probably
                >> we wiped the rest out.

                > Probably there were 'wet apes' in the forest many
                > times over the last twenty odd million years ...
                > not so certain on the other hand that many of them
                > abandoned the forest, for the coast, to the extent
                > Homo appears to have done since the LCA (the split
                > with the chimps).
                > (not yet convinced, on 'floresiensis')

                Hf lived on Flores, so they must have crossed the sea.

                >>> Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
                >>> largely nomadic?

                >> I don't know about you, m3d, but I am not nomadic at all.
                >> But if humans are more nomadic than other apes, this might
                >> have to do with our post-aquarboreal lifestyle (following
                >> coastlines & rivers inland etc.).

                > These days I am too settled in my ways, but as a
                > young man with no commitments I did seriously think
                > of moving to the other side of the world, namely
                > New Zealand.

                Yes, moving away from your parents & establishing your own territory is seen
                in most territorial animals.

                > When it comes to making a comparison between Homo
                > and chimps, the difference is even more obvious, the
                > chimps stayed put whilst Homo apparently left Africa
                > at the earliest available opportunity ...

                They simply followed the coasts IMO & from there inland along rivers etc.

                > If for example Homo was absent from mainland Africa
                > between three and four million years ago, when the
                > virus spread among the gorillas and the chimps, then
                > Homo must have began leaving Africa within hundreds
                > thousand years of the P/H split.
                > Even if that were not the case, there is H.erectus
                > who after a abrupt emergence, turns up in Africa,
                > China and Java almost 'overnight' ...

                Yes, that might be an "artefact" due to lowering sea levels (ice ages)?

                >>> Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk
                >>> upright are Homo the only one to do so, full time?

                >> "Full time", because of our evol.history:
                >> - upright spine since Moroto 20 Ma cf.Filler,
                >> - bipedal since gibbons (split c 18-16 Ma),
                >> - head-spine-legs on 1 line = swimming.

                > Yes.
                > But, that same opportunity was available to all
                > the other apes, but they appear to remained in
                > the forest and adapted their gait to the niche
                > they have occupied, in the forest. Homo on the
                > other hand, walked out of the forest, down onto
                > the shore, and never returned.

                Probably there were a lot of Homo populations along coasts & inland along
                rivers, but all these got wiped out, some of them probably not so long ago
                (eg, Hf).

                > (Upright Ape - videos)
                > The Upright Ape: Hominiform Progression
                > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZMt5PXIuc

                Upright, yes, but not in way Filler thinks. Filler thinks the early apes
                were bipedal, but the Moroto vertebra c 19 Ma doesn't say much (or anything)
                directly on bipedalism, it only suggests early apes had vertical spines, but
                that was IMO due to aquarborealism in swamp forests, grasping branches above
                the head etc.

                >> "The only one": rest wiped out?

                > If that were the case, early Homo seems to have
                > been pretty effective in getting rid
                > of the competition.

                We are an odd species, with a lot of technology incl.weapons etc.

                > The only other we know about, were the a'piths
                > who seemed to have wobbled from tree to tree
                > on two legs, in the forest.

                Apiths were not Homo.
                - Gracile apiths were Pliocene Afr.hominids that lived in swamp forests.
                - Robust apiths were Pleistocene Afr.hominids that lived in wetlands.
                Humans didn't wipe them out IMO (not yet).


                >>> An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
                >>> did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
                >>> powerful brain?

                >> Humans have brains 3 x larger than apes, but that is
                >> not unexpected: aquatics often have brains +- 3 x larger
                >> than related terrestrials.

                > Then again Homo has not been an aquatic mammal, we
                > gained our 'large' brain on the shore.

                Homo dived a lot.
                Rephrase: (semi)aquatics have brains +-3 x larger than related terrestrials.


                >>>> Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
                >>>> but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
                >>>> elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
                >>>> <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
                >>>> directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
                >>>> So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
                >>>> unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
                >>>> elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
                >>>> mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
                >>>> in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
                >>>> some animals can undergo great changes.
                >>>> (Whether strongly-changing >
                >>>> animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)

                >>>>> ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
                >>>>> powers in this hominoid.

                >>>> IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
                >>>> no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
                >>>> psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
                >>>> between these members than we have.

                >>> IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
                >>> wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
                >>> species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
                >>> of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
                >>> sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life). ---m3d

                >> We are curious animals, but so is my dog when I see him
                >> sniffing around.

                > Dogs live in a world dominated by scents, to them
                > smell is everything.

                Yes.

                >> That we are probably more curious in many instances
                >> than most other spp (but what about, eg, dolphins &
                >> elephants?) might be due to our very big brain,
                >> to language (+ the accumulated knowledge) & to our
                >> abundant leisure time - all these factors have logical
                >> possible explanations IMO. --Marc

                > Predators (lions) on the savanna, probably had more
                > leisure time than our ancestors.

                Yes, but without very big brains (aquatic past) or language (arboreal +
                aquatic + suction). Dextrous hands (primates) might also have been a factor.
                Omnivory idem.

                My point is that there are no objective criteria to compare humans with
                other animals without being anthropocentric. Elephants can equally well
                argue that they are unique.

                > Can't see an elephant or any other mammal calculating
                > to the nth degree the distance around the equator, the
                > orbit of an outer planet that can be seen by the naked
                > human eye ... write and read music at mere five years
                > of age (Mozart), or have Archimedes insight in how to
                > test the density of pure gold.

                Anthropocentric view, m3d. I can't see tiny creatures making huge hills
                (termites). Many birds (at younger ages) make faster rhythms & melodies
                than Mozart. Etc. Every species is unique, and it's difficult, perhaps
                impossible, & IMO futile to try to compare this. On what criteria? and to
                what purpose? and what would it tell us?
                But of course it's clear that humans have gone through a very complex
                evolution at least the last 2 My.

                > In evolutionary terms, we walk alone. ---m3d

                --Marc

                _____




                >
                >>>>> ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                >>>>
                >>>> A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very
                > importantly
                >>>> something at the waterside, but the exact details are still
                > uncertain.
                >>>>
                >>>>> ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                >>> chapter of
                >>>>> enquiry.
                >>>>
                >>>> Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible
                >>> answers
                >>>> to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see
                >>> answered.
                >>>> IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
                >>> different
                >>>> form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems
                >>> in human
                >>>> evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or
                >>> at least
                >>>> in the field of human evolution, DD?
                >>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>
                > http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Humans are very strange apes.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our
                > closest
                >>>>> kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
                >>>>> symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
                >>>>>
                >>>>> occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
                >>>>> plucks and guides a mouse,
                >>>>> and pecks at a keyboard
                >>>>> composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
                >>>>> with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
                >>>>> to communicate imaginary thoughts
                >>>>> about what is happening billions of light years away
                >>>>> from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
                >>>>> we call Earth.
                >>>>>
                >>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
                >>>>> brain-power foods, complex environment but generally non-threatening
                >>>>> for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island effect, but
                >>>>> perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no doubt
                >>>>> at all.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> But,
                >>>>>
                >>>>> WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Seriously.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> No other life form has done anything comparable.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
                >>>>> often so incredibly stupid,
                >>>>>
                >>>>> physically primitive yet super-derived,
                >>>>>
                >>>>> with so many individuals afraid to swim
                >>>>> yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
                >>>>>
                >>>>> some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or apes
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Our species got a software upgrade obviously
                >>>>>
                >>>>> yet still susceptible to viruses
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
                >>>>> inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal
                > lifestyles
                >>>>> and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade, ritual and
                >>>>> communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
                >>>>> sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
                >>>>>
                >>>>> and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The other apes
                >>>>> were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like
                > calls,
                >>>>> a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
                >>>>> coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially probably
                >>>>> didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
                >>>>> harvesting and nutritional variety.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the
                > source
                >>>>> as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
                >>>>> communication, trust, trade.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
                >>>>> ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
                >>>>> reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
                >>>>> long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow running,
                >>>>> slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
                >>>>> learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or
                > moon.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the
                > process of
                >>>>> what happened.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major
                > steps
                >>>>> that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some always
                >>>>> will, which is ok.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates me, as
                >>>>> I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove what now
                >>>>> appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this chapter of
                >>>>> enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that
                > is less
                >>>>> significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
                >>>>> unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
                >>>>> difference.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
                >>>>> social equity (rituals, funds, status).
                >>>>>
                >>>>> School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and Discovering,
                >>>>> no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
                >>>>> foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and
                > 2,000
                >>>>> year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood
                > forest, and
                >>>>> incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
                >>>>> construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven in a 5
                >>>>> pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
                >>>>> filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole,
                > etc.
                >>>>>
                >>>>> Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
                >>>>> generous.
                >>>>>
                >>>>>
                >>>
                > http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
                >>>>> hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
                >>>>
                >>>> :-)
                >>>>
                >>>>> peace & peanuts
                >>>>>
                >>>>> DD
                >>>>
                >>>> --Marc
                >>
                >
                >
                >
              • m3dodds
                ... Not yet convinced on floresiensis , as such. ... Hss(AMH) probably on foot and using boats, followed the coastal route east ... On the other hand, it is
                Message 7 of 9 , Nov 2, 2008
                  --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > DD:
                  > >>>>> ... Humans are very strange apes.
                  >
                  > m3d:
                  > >>> DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
                  > >>> very strange happened to the Human ape?
                  >
                  > MV:
                  > >> Yes, that is what DD means I'd think.
                  >
                  > >>> Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
                  > >>> with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
                  > >>> an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
                  > >>> that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
                  > >>> ancestors spent on the shore.
                  > >>> But some awkward questions remain, like ...
                  > >>> Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
                  > >>> in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
                  > >>> forest when they split from the chimps?
                  >
                  > >> There were probably a lot of coastal hominids
                  > >> (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or pongids, but probably
                  > >> we wiped the rest out.
                  >
                  > > Probably there were 'wet apes' in the forest many
                  > > times over the last twenty odd million years ...
                  > > not so certain on the other hand that many of them
                  > > abandoned the forest, for the coast, to the extent
                  > > Homo appears to have done since the LCA (the split
                  > > with the chimps).
                  > > (not yet convinced, on 'floresiensis')
                  >
                  > Hf lived on Flores, so they must have crossed
                  > the sea.
                  >


                  Not yet convinced on 'floresiensis', as such.



                  > >>> Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
                  > >>> largely nomadic?
                  >
                  > >> I don't know about you, m3d, but I am not nomadic at all.
                  > >> But if humans are more nomadic than other apes, this might
                  > >> have to do with our post-aquarboreal lifestyle (following
                  > >> coastlines & rivers inland etc.).
                  >
                  > > These days I am too settled in my ways, but as a
                  > > young man with no commitments I did seriously think
                  > > of moving to the other side of the world, namely
                  > > New Zealand.
                  >
                  > Yes, moving away from your parents & establishing your
                  > own territory is seen in most territorial animals.
                  >
                  > > When it comes to making a comparison between Homo
                  > > and chimps, the difference is even more obvious, the
                  > > chimps stayed put whilst Homo apparently left Africa
                  > > at the earliest available opportunity ...
                  >
                  > They simply followed the coasts IMO & from there inland
                  > along rivers etc.
                  >


                  Hss(AMH) probably on foot and using boats, followed
                  the coastal route east ...

                  On the other hand, it is more likely that H.erectus
                  would have taken the shortest route east(or west)the
                  overland route(possibly following migrating prey).
                  Possibly trekking overland from Riwat(in Pakistan)
                  to Yunnan(home of Yuanmou man).



                  > > If for example Homo was absent from mainland Africa
                  > > between three and four million years ago, when the
                  > > virus spread among the gorillas and the chimps, then
                  > > Homo must have began leaving Africa within hundreds
                  > > thousand years of the P/H split.
                  > > Even if that were not the case, there is H.erectus
                  > > who after a abrupt emergence, turns up in Africa,
                  > > China and Java almost 'overnight' ...
                  >
                  > Yes, that might be an "artefact" due to lowering sea
                  > levels (ice ages)?
                  >
                  > >>> Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk
                  > >>> upright are Homo the only one to do so, full time?
                  >
                  > >> "Full time", because of our evol.history:
                  > >> - upright spine since Moroto 20 Ma cf.Filler,
                  > >> - bipedal since gibbons (split c 18-16 Ma),
                  > >> - head-spine-legs on 1 line = swimming.
                  >
                  > > Yes.
                  > > But, that same opportunity was available to all
                  > > the other apes, but they appear to remained in
                  > > the forest and adapted their gait to the niche
                  > > they have occupied, in the forest. Homo on the
                  > > other hand, walked out of the forest, down onto
                  > > the shore, and never returned.
                  >
                  > Probably there were a lot of Homo populations along
                  > coasts & inland along rivers, but all these got wiped
                  > out, some of them probably not so long ago (eg, Hf).
                  >
                  > > (Upright Ape - videos)
                  > > The Upright Ape: Hominiform Progression
                  > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZMt5PXIuc
                  >
                  > Upright, yes, but not in way Filler thinks. Filler
                  > thinks the early apes were bipedal, but the Moroto
                  > vertebra c 19 Ma doesn't say much (or anything)
                  > directly on bipedalism, it only suggests early apes
                  > had vertical spines, but that was IMO due to
                  > aquarborealism in swamp forests, grasping branches
                  > above the head etc.
                  >


                  A vertical spine, was a crucial step.


                  Would you say Macaques that climb, swim, swim and
                  feed underwater are becoming aquarboreal?

                  Video of Macaques diving, swimming underwater
                  and feeding underwater.
                  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9ObDgBLFo9w









                  > >> "The only one": rest wiped out?
                  >
                  > > If that were the case, early Homo seems to have
                  > > been pretty effective in getting rid
                  > > of the competition.
                  >
                  > We are an odd species, with a lot of technology
                  > incl.weapons etc.
                  >

                  An a pretty inventive species too, we probably have
                  more ways now of killing ourselves an every other
                  living thing on the planet, several times over in
                  several hundred different ways ...




                  > > The only other we know about, were the a'piths
                  > > who seemed to have wobbled from tree to tree
                  > > on two legs, in the forest.
                  >
                  > Apiths were not Homo.
                  > - Gracile apiths were Pliocene Afr.hominids that
                  > lived in swamp forests.
                  > - Robust apiths were Pleistocene Afr.hominids that
                  > lived in wetlands.


                  Agree.
                  (but, the savanna lobby would say otherwise)



                  > Humans didn't wipe them out IMO (not yet).
                  >

                  Doubt if our ancestors wiped out any of them(a'piths
                  or otherwise). We were/are simply a more successful,
                  adaptive species.




                  > >>> An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
                  > >>> did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
                  > >>> powerful brain?
                  >
                  > >> Humans have brains 3 x larger than apes, but that is
                  > >> not unexpected: aquatics often have brains +- 3 x larger
                  > >> than related terrestrials.
                  >
                  > > Then again Homo has not been an aquatic mammal, we
                  > > gained our 'large' brain on the shore.
                  >
                  > Homo dived a lot.
                  > Rephrase: (semi)aquatics have brains +-3 x larger
                  > than related terrestrials.
                  >


                  If you mean its all down to diet, then I would agree
                  (foraging in the sea, took human evolution in a different
                  direction, from those apes that stayed at 'home'
                  in the forest).




                  > >>>> Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
                  > >>>> but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
                  > >>>> elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
                  > >>>> <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
                  > >>>> directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
                  > >>>> So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
                  > >>>> unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
                  > >>>> elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
                  > >>>> mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
                  > >>>> in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
                  > >>>> some animals can undergo great changes.
                  > >>>> (Whether strongly-changing >
                  > >>>> animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)
                  >
                  > >>>>> ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
                  > >>>>> powers in this hominoid.
                  >
                  > >>>> IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
                  > >>>> no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
                  > >>>> psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
                  > >>>> between these members than we have.
                  >
                  > >>> IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
                  > >>> wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
                  > >>> species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
                  > >>> of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
                  > >>> sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life). ---m3d
                  >
                  > >> We are curious animals, but so is my dog when I see him
                  > >> sniffing around.
                  >
                  > > Dogs live in a world dominated by scents, to them
                  > > smell is everything.
                  >
                  > Yes.
                  >
                  > >> That we are probably more curious in many instances
                  > >> than most other spp (but what about, eg, dolphins &
                  > >> elephants?) might be due to our very big brain,
                  > >> to language (+ the accumulated knowledge) & to our
                  > >> abundant leisure time - all these factors have logical
                  > >> possible explanations IMO. --Marc
                  >
                  > > Predators (lions) on the savanna, probably had more
                  > > leisure time than our ancestors.
                  >
                  > Yes, but without very big brains (aquatic past) or
                  > language (arboreal + aquatic + suction). Dextrous hands
                  > (primates) might also have been a factor. Omnivory idem.
                  >
                  >


                  Elephants too, have a lot of leisure time.




                  > My point is that there are no objective criteria to
                  > compare humans with other animals without being
                  > anthropocentric. Elephants can equally well argue
                  > that they are unique.
                  > > Can't see an elephant or any other mammal calculating
                  > > to the nth degree the distance around the equator, the
                  > > orbit of an outer planet that can be seen by the naked
                  > > human eye ... write and read music at mere five years
                  > > of age (Mozart), or have Archimedes insight in how to
                  > > test the density of pure gold.
                  >
                  >
                  > Anthropocentric view, m3d.


                  It makes more sense, than a anthropomorphic
                  view of nature.



                  > I can't see tiny creatures making huge hills
                  > (termites). Many birds (at younger ages) make faster
                  > rhythms & melodies than Mozart. Etc. Every species
                  > is unique, and it's difficult, perhaps impossible, &
                  > IMO futile to try to compare this. On what criteria?
                  > and to what purpose? and what would it tell us?


                  Tells us that there is a difference between what is
                  instinct, and cognition.

                  (instinct - ants building anthills, birds singing, dogs
                  sniffing lamp posts)


                  ---m3d




                  > But of course it's clear that humans have gone through
                  > a very complex evolution at least the last 2 My.
                  >
                  > > In evolutionary terms, we walk alone. ---m3d
                  >
                  > --Marc
                  >
                  > _____













                  > >>>>> ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very
                  > > importantly
                  > >>>> something at the waterside, but the exact details are still
                  > > uncertain.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>> ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                  > >>> chapter of
                  > >>>>> enquiry.
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible
                  > >>> answers
                  > >>>> to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see
                  > >>> answered.
                  > >>>> IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
                  > >>> different
                  > >>>> form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems
                  > >>> in human
                  > >>>> evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or
                  > >>> at least
                  > >>>> in the field of human evolution, DD?
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>
                  > >
                  http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Humans are very strange apes.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our
                  > > closest
                  > >>>>> kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
                  > >>>>> symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
                  > >>>>> plucks and guides a mouse,
                  > >>>>> and pecks at a keyboard
                  > >>>>> composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
                  > >>>>> with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
                  > >>>>> to communicate imaginary thoughts
                  > >>>>> about what is happening billions of light years away
                  > >>>>> from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
                  > >>>>> we call Earth.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
                  > >>>>> brain-power foods, complex environment but generally
                  non-threatening
                  > >>>>> for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island
                  effect, but
                  > >>>>> perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no
                  doubt
                  > >>>>> at all.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> But,
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Seriously.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> No other life form has done anything comparable.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
                  > >>>>> often so incredibly stupid,
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> physically primitive yet super-derived,
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> with so many individuals afraid to swim
                  > >>>>> yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or
                  apes
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Our species got a software upgrade obviously
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> yet still susceptible to viruses
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
                  > >>>>> inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal
                  > > lifestyles
                  > >>>>> and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade,
                  ritual and
                  > >>>>> communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
                  > >>>>> sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The
                  other apes
                  > >>>>> were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like
                  > > calls,
                  > >>>>> a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
                  > >>>>> coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially
                  probably
                  > >>>>> didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
                  > >>>>> harvesting and nutritional variety.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the
                  > > source
                  > >>>>> as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
                  > >>>>> communication, trust, trade.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
                  > >>>>> ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
                  > >>>>> reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
                  > >>>>> long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow
                  running,
                  > >>>>> slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
                  > >>>>> learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or
                  > > moon.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the
                  > > process of
                  > >>>>> what happened.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major
                  > > steps
                  > >>>>> that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some
                  always
                  > >>>>> will, which is ok.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates
                  me, as
                  > >>>>> I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove
                  what now
                  > >>>>> appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                  chapter of
                  > >>>>> enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that
                  > > is less
                  > >>>>> significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
                  > >>>>> unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
                  > >>>>> difference.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
                  > >>>>> social equity (rituals, funds, status).
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and
                  Discovering,
                  > >>>>> no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
                  > >>>>> foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and
                  > > 2,000
                  > >>>>> year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood
                  > > forest, and
                  > >>>>> incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
                  > >>>>> construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven
                  in a 5
                  > >>>>> pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
                  > >>>>> filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole,
                  > > etc.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
                  > >>>>> generous.
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>
                  > >
                  http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
                  > >>>>> hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> :-)
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>>> peace & peanuts
                  > >>>>>
                  > >>>>> DD
                  > >>>>
                  > >>>> --Marc
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                • DDeden
                  Just a brief comment: note this list, the blobfish is neutrally buoyant, I guess, or slightly less dense. I m currently working on an ultrasonic pet control
                  Message 8 of 9 , Nov 3, 2008
                    Just a brief comment: note this list, the blobfish is neutrally
                    buoyant, I guess, or slightly less dense.

                    I'm currently working on an ultrasonic pet control device to be used
                    in forest and field crops which detects and destroys wood (or
                    woody/pulp material) boring insects in a method similar to the
                    Madagascarene Aye-aye lemur, which is how I stumbled onto this page of
                    the 10 ugliest creatures.

                    http://listverse.com/nature/top-10-ugliest-creatures/

                    Yes, of course I'm still interested in the evolution of our human
                    ancestors and the association with the marine-littoral-waterside
                    habitat, but I need to focus on less closely related work, getting
                    some funding for (kelp-redwood) forest management etc. must take
                    priority at the moment. I will keep my eyes open for items of
                    interest, naturally.

                    Best wishes,

                    DD




                    http://listverse.com/nature/top-10-ugliest-creatures/

                    --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > DD:
                    > >>>>> ... Humans are very strange apes.
                    >
                    > m3d:
                    > >>> DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
                    > >>> very strange happened to the Human ape?
                    >
                    > MV:
                    > >> Yes, that is what DD means I'd think.
                    >
                    > >>> Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
                    > >>> with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
                    > >>> an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
                    > >>> that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
                    > >>> ancestors spent on the shore.
                    > >>> But some awkward questions remain, like ...
                    > >>> Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
                    > >>> in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
                    > >>> forest when they split from the chimps?
                    >
                    > >> There were probably a lot of coastal hominids
                    > >> (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or pongids, but probably
                    > >> we wiped the rest out.
                    >
                    > > Probably there were 'wet apes' in the forest many
                    > > times over the last twenty odd million years ...
                    > > not so certain on the other hand that many of them
                    > > abandoned the forest, for the coast, to the extent
                    > > Homo appears to have done since the LCA (the split
                    > > with the chimps).
                    > > (not yet convinced, on 'floresiensis')
                    >
                    > Hf lived on Flores, so they must have crossed the sea.
                    >
                    > >>> Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
                    > >>> largely nomadic?
                    >
                    > >> I don't know about you, m3d, but I am not nomadic at all.
                    > >> But if humans are more nomadic than other apes, this might
                    > >> have to do with our post-aquarboreal lifestyle (following
                    > >> coastlines & rivers inland etc.).
                    >
                    > > These days I am too settled in my ways, but as a
                    > > young man with no commitments I did seriously think
                    > > of moving to the other side of the world, namely
                    > > New Zealand.
                    >
                    > Yes, moving away from your parents & establishing your own territory
                    is seen
                    > in most territorial animals.
                    >
                    > > When it comes to making a comparison between Homo
                    > > and chimps, the difference is even more obvious, the
                    > > chimps stayed put whilst Homo apparently left Africa
                    > > at the earliest available opportunity ...
                    >
                    > They simply followed the coasts IMO & from there inland along rivers
                    etc.
                    >
                    > > If for example Homo was absent from mainland Africa
                    > > between three and four million years ago, when the
                    > > virus spread among the gorillas and the chimps, then
                    > > Homo must have began leaving Africa within hundreds
                    > > thousand years of the P/H split.
                    > > Even if that were not the case, there is H.erectus
                    > > who after a abrupt emergence, turns up in Africa,
                    > > China and Java almost 'overnight' ...
                    >
                    > Yes, that might be an "artefact" due to lowering sea levels (ice ages)?
                    >
                    > >>> Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk
                    > >>> upright are Homo the only one to do so, full time?
                    >
                    > >> "Full time", because of our evol.history:
                    > >> - upright spine since Moroto 20 Ma cf.Filler,
                    > >> - bipedal since gibbons (split c 18-16 Ma),
                    > >> - head-spine-legs on 1 line = swimming.
                    >
                    > > Yes.
                    > > But, that same opportunity was available to all
                    > > the other apes, but they appear to remained in
                    > > the forest and adapted their gait to the niche
                    > > they have occupied, in the forest. Homo on the
                    > > other hand, walked out of the forest, down onto
                    > > the shore, and never returned.
                    >
                    > Probably there were a lot of Homo populations along coasts & inland
                    along
                    > rivers, but all these got wiped out, some of them probably not so
                    long ago
                    > (eg, Hf).
                    >
                    > > (Upright Ape - videos)
                    > > The Upright Ape: Hominiform Progression
                    > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZMt5PXIuc
                    >
                    > Upright, yes, but not in way Filler thinks. Filler thinks the early
                    apes
                    > were bipedal, but the Moroto vertebra c 19 Ma doesn't say much (or
                    anything)
                    > directly on bipedalism, it only suggests early apes had vertical
                    spines, but
                    > that was IMO due to aquarborealism in swamp forests, grasping
                    branches above
                    > the head etc.
                    >
                    > >> "The only one": rest wiped out?
                    >
                    > > If that were the case, early Homo seems to have
                    > > been pretty effective in getting rid
                    > > of the competition.
                    >
                    > We are an odd species, with a lot of technology incl.weapons etc.
                    >
                    > > The only other we know about, were the a'piths
                    > > who seemed to have wobbled from tree to tree
                    > > on two legs, in the forest.
                    >
                    > Apiths were not Homo.
                    > - Gracile apiths were Pliocene Afr.hominids that lived in swamp forests.
                    > - Robust apiths were Pleistocene Afr.hominids that lived in wetlands.
                    > Humans didn't wipe them out IMO (not yet).
                    >
                    >
                    > >>> An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
                    > >>> did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
                    > >>> powerful brain?
                    >
                    > >> Humans have brains 3 x larger than apes, but that is
                    > >> not unexpected: aquatics often have brains +- 3 x larger
                    > >> than related terrestrials.
                    >
                    > > Then again Homo has not been an aquatic mammal, we
                    > > gained our 'large' brain on the shore.
                    >
                    > Homo dived a lot.
                    > Rephrase: (semi)aquatics have brains +-3 x larger than related
                    terrestrials.
                    >
                    >
                    > >>>> Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
                    > >>>> but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
                    > >>>> elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
                    > >>>> <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
                    > >>>> directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
                    > >>>> So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
                    > >>>> unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
                    > >>>> elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
                    > >>>> mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
                    > >>>> in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
                    > >>>> some animals can undergo great changes.
                    > >>>> (Whether strongly-changing >
                    > >>>> animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)
                    >
                    > >>>>> ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
                    > >>>>> powers in this hominoid.
                    >
                    > >>>> IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
                    > >>>> no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
                    > >>>> psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
                    > >>>> between these members than we have.
                    >
                    > >>> IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
                    > >>> wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
                    > >>> species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
                    > >>> of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
                    > >>> sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life). ---m3d
                    >
                    > >> We are curious animals, but so is my dog when I see him
                    > >> sniffing around.
                    >
                    > > Dogs live in a world dominated by scents, to them
                    > > smell is everything.
                    >
                    > Yes.
                    >
                    > >> That we are probably more curious in many instances
                    > >> than most other spp (but what about, eg, dolphins &
                    > >> elephants?) might be due to our very big brain,
                    > >> to language (+ the accumulated knowledge) & to our
                    > >> abundant leisure time - all these factors have logical
                    > >> possible explanations IMO. --Marc
                    >
                    > > Predators (lions) on the savanna, probably had more
                    > > leisure time than our ancestors.
                    >
                    > Yes, but without very big brains (aquatic past) or language (arboreal +
                    > aquatic + suction). Dextrous hands (primates) might also have been a
                    factor.
                    > Omnivory idem.
                    >
                    > My point is that there are no objective criteria to compare humans with
                    > other animals without being anthropocentric. Elephants can equally well
                    > argue that they are unique.
                    >
                    > > Can't see an elephant or any other mammal calculating
                    > > to the nth degree the distance around the equator, the
                    > > orbit of an outer planet that can be seen by the naked
                    > > human eye ... write and read music at mere five years
                    > > of age (Mozart), or have Archimedes insight in how to
                    > > test the density of pure gold.
                    >
                    > Anthropocentric view, m3d. I can't see tiny creatures making huge hills
                    > (termites). Many birds (at younger ages) make faster rhythms & melodies
                    > than Mozart. Etc. Every species is unique, and it's difficult,
                    perhaps
                    > impossible, & IMO futile to try to compare this. On what criteria?
                    and to
                    > what purpose? and what would it tell us?
                    > But of course it's clear that humans have gone through a very complex
                    > evolution at least the last 2 My.
                    >
                    > > In evolutionary terms, we walk alone. ---m3d
                    >
                    > --Marc
                    >
                    > _____
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > >>>>> ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very
                    > > importantly
                    > >>>> something at the waterside, but the exact details are still
                    > > uncertain.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>> ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                    > >>> chapter of
                    > >>>>> enquiry.
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have sensible
                    > >>> answers
                    > >>>> to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped to see
                    > >>> answered.
                    > >>>> IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
                    > >>> different
                    > >>>> form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered problems
                    > >>> in human
                    > >>>> evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this forum or
                    > >>> at least
                    > >>>> in the field of human evolution, DD?
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>
                    > >
                    http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Humans are very strange apes.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our
                    > > closest
                    > >>>>> kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
                    > >>>>> symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
                    > >>>>> plucks and guides a mouse,
                    > >>>>> and pecks at a keyboard
                    > >>>>> composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
                    > >>>>> with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
                    > >>>>> to communicate imaginary thoughts
                    > >>>>> about what is happening billions of light years away
                    > >>>>> from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
                    > >>>>> we call Earth.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer? Abundant
                    > >>>>> brain-power foods, complex environment but generally
                    non-threatening
                    > >>>>> for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island
                    effect, but
                    > >>>>> perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no
                    doubt
                    > >>>>> at all.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> But,
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Seriously.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> No other life form has done anything comparable.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
                    > >>>>> often so incredibly stupid,
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> physically primitive yet super-derived,
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> with so many individuals afraid to swim
                    > >>>>> yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or
                    apes
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Our species got a software upgrade obviously
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> yet still susceptible to viruses
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some moved
                    > >>>>> inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal
                    > > lifestyles
                    > >>>>> and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade,
                    ritual and
                    > >>>>> communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
                    > >>>>> sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The
                    other apes
                    > >>>>> were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like
                    > > calls,
                    > >>>>> a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
                    > >>>>> coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially
                    probably
                    > >>>>> didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
                    > >>>>> harvesting and nutritional variety.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the
                    > > source
                    > >>>>> as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
                    > >>>>> communication, trust, trade.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
                    > >>>>> ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
                    > >>>>> reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
                    > >>>>> long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow
                    running,
                    > >>>>> slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
                    > >>>>> learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or
                    > > moon.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the
                    > > process of
                    > >>>>> what happened.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major
                    > > steps
                    > >>>>> that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some
                    always
                    > >>>>> will, which is ok.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates
                    me, as
                    > >>>>> I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove
                    what now
                    > >>>>> appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                    chapter of
                    > >>>>> enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that
                    > > is less
                    > >>>>> significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the seashores,
                    > >>>>> unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made all the
                    > >>>>> difference.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> My success in natural human research has paralleled my failure in
                    > >>>>> social equity (rituals, funds, status).
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and
                    Discovering,
                    > >>>>> no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
                    > >>>>> foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and
                    > > 2,000
                    > >>>>> year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood
                    > > forest, and
                    > >>>>> incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
                    > >>>>> construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven
                    in a 5
                    > >>>>> pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
                    > >>>>> filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole,
                    > > etc.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great pumpkin be
                    > >>>>> generous.
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>
                    > >
                    http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
                    > >>>>> hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> :-)
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>>> peace & peanuts
                    > >>>>>
                    > >>>>> DD
                    > >>>>
                    > >>>> --Marc
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • m3dodds
                    ... DD. The blobfish skimming along on the ocean bottom is well named ... Guess to their own kind they are acceptable, but from a human perspective ... they
                    Message 9 of 9 , Nov 5, 2008
                      --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Just a brief comment: note this list, the blobfish is neutrally
                      > buoyant, I guess, or slightly less dense.
                      >
                      > I'm currently working on an ultrasonic pet control device to be
                      > used in forest and field crops which detects and destroys wood
                      > (or woody/pulp material) boring insects in a method similar to
                      > the Madagascarene Aye-aye lemur, which is how I stumbled onto
                      > this page of the 10 ugliest creatures.
                      >



                      > http://listverse.com/nature/top-10-ugliest-creatures/
                      >




                      DD. The blobfish skimming along on the ocean bottom
                      is well named ... Guess to their own kind they are
                      acceptable, but from a human perspective ...
                      they are dead ugly!

                      Does though raise another interesting characteristic
                      of buoyancy, cold water is denser than warm, where
                      the blobfish swims it water will be denser than the
                      warm water at the surface. Water reaches its maximum
                      density at 4.C (just above the point, at which
                      it freezes).


                      Best of luck, with devising a pest control device.


                      ---m3d





                      > Yes, of course I'm still interested in the evolution of our human
                      > ancestors and the association with the marine-littoral-waterside
                      > habitat, but I need to focus on less closely related work, getting
                      > some funding for (kelp-redwood) forest management etc. must take
                      > priority at the moment. I will keep my eyes open for items of
                      > interest, naturally.
                      >
                      > Best wishes,
                      >
                      > DD
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > http://listverse.com/nature/top-10-ugliest-creatures/
                      >
                      > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > DD:
                      > > >>>>> ... Humans are very strange apes.
                      > >
                      > > m3d:
                      > > >>> DD. Wouldn't it more accurate to say that something
                      > > >>> very strange happened to the Human ape?
                      > >
                      > > MV:
                      > > >> Yes, that is what DD means I'd think.
                      > >
                      > > >>> Stephen C. Cunnane has explanation as why we are apes
                      > > >>> with relatively large brains. An Aaron G.Filler has
                      > > >>> an explanation to why we are bipeds. An it undeniable
                      > > >>> that crucial phase in our evolution, was the time our
                      > > >>> ancestors spent on the shore.
                      > > >>> But some awkward questions remain, like ...
                      > > >>> Why when all the other apes found themselves a niche
                      > > >>> in the forest, did the ancestor of Homo leave the
                      > > >>> forest when they split from the chimps?
                      > >
                      > > >> There were probably a lot of coastal hominids
                      > > >> (eg, H.floresiensis) &/or pongids, but probably
                      > > >> we wiped the rest out.
                      > >
                      > > > Probably there were 'wet apes' in the forest many
                      > > > times over the last twenty odd million years ...
                      > > > not so certain on the other hand that many of them
                      > > > abandoned the forest, for the coast, to the extent
                      > > > Homo appears to have done since the LCA (the split
                      > > > with the chimps).
                      > > > (not yet convinced, on 'floresiensis')
                      > >
                      > > Hf lived on Flores, so they must have crossed the sea.
                      > >
                      > > >>> Why when apes are fiercely territorial, are Homo
                      > > >>> largely nomadic?
                      > >
                      > > >> I don't know about you, m3d, but I am not nomadic at all.
                      > > >> But if humans are more nomadic than other apes, this might
                      > > >> have to do with our post-aquarboreal lifestyle (following
                      > > >> coastlines & rivers inland etc.).
                      > >
                      > > > These days I am too settled in my ways, but as a
                      > > > young man with no commitments I did seriously think
                      > > > of moving to the other side of the world, namely
                      > > > New Zealand.
                      > >
                      > > Yes, moving away from your parents & establishing your own territory
                      > is seen
                      > > in most territorial animals.
                      > >
                      > > > When it comes to making a comparison between Homo
                      > > > and chimps, the difference is even more obvious, the
                      > > > chimps stayed put whilst Homo apparently left Africa
                      > > > at the earliest available opportunity ...
                      > >
                      > > They simply followed the coasts IMO & from there inland along rivers
                      > etc.
                      > >
                      > > > If for example Homo was absent from mainland Africa
                      > > > between three and four million years ago, when the
                      > > > virus spread among the gorillas and the chimps, then
                      > > > Homo must have began leaving Africa within hundreds
                      > > > thousand years of the P/H split.
                      > > > Even if that were not the case, there is H.erectus
                      > > > who after a abrupt emergence, turns up in Africa,
                      > > > China and Java almost 'overnight' ...
                      > >
                      > > Yes, that might be an "artefact" due to lowering sea levels (ice
                      ages)?
                      > >
                      > > >>> Why when all apes have had the capacity to walk
                      > > >>> upright are Homo the only one to do so, full time?
                      > >
                      > > >> "Full time", because of our evol.history:
                      > > >> - upright spine since Moroto 20 Ma cf.Filler,
                      > > >> - bipedal since gibbons (split c 18-16 Ma),
                      > > >> - head-spine-legs on 1 line = swimming.
                      > >
                      > > > Yes.
                      > > > But, that same opportunity was available to all
                      > > > the other apes, but they appear to remained in
                      > > > the forest and adapted their gait to the niche
                      > > > they have occupied, in the forest. Homo on the
                      > > > other hand, walked out of the forest, down onto
                      > > > the shore, and never returned.
                      > >
                      > > Probably there were a lot of Homo populations along coasts & inland
                      > along
                      > > rivers, but all these got wiped out, some of them probably not so
                      > long ago
                      > > (eg, Hf).
                      > >
                      > > > (Upright Ape - videos)
                      > > > The Upright Ape: Hominiform Progression
                      > > > http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=WjZMt5PXIuc
                      > >
                      > > Upright, yes, but not in way Filler thinks. Filler thinks the early
                      > apes
                      > > were bipedal, but the Moroto vertebra c 19 Ma doesn't say much (or
                      > anything)
                      > > directly on bipedalism, it only suggests early apes had vertical
                      > spines, but
                      > > that was IMO due to aquarborealism in swamp forests, grasping
                      > branches above
                      > > the head etc.
                      > >
                      > > >> "The only one": rest wiped out?
                      > >
                      > > > If that were the case, early Homo seems to have
                      > > > been pretty effective in getting rid
                      > > > of the competition.
                      > >
                      > > We are an odd species, with a lot of technology incl.weapons etc.
                      > >
                      > > > The only other we know about, were the a'piths
                      > > > who seemed to have wobbled from tree to tree
                      > > > on two legs, in the forest.
                      > >
                      > > Apiths were not Homo.
                      > > - Gracile apiths were Pliocene Afr.hominids that lived in swamp
                      forests.
                      > > - Robust apiths were Pleistocene Afr.hominids that lived in wetlands.
                      > > Humans didn't wipe them out IMO (not yet).
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >>> An the most difficult question, why of all the apes
                      > > >>> did/do Homo need such such a relatively large and
                      > > >>> powerful brain?
                      > >
                      > > >> Humans have brains 3 x larger than apes, but that is
                      > > >> not unexpected: aquatics often have brains +- 3 x larger
                      > > >> than related terrestrials.
                      > >
                      > > > Then again Homo has not been an aquatic mammal, we
                      > > > gained our 'large' brain on the shore.
                      > >
                      > > Homo dived a lot.
                      > > Rephrase: (semi)aquatics have brains +-3 x larger than related
                      > terrestrials.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >>>> Yes, a lot of things must have happened in a rel.short time,
                      > > >>>> but if we analyse the differences with apes into more
                      > > >>>> elementary pieces, we find parallels in other animals, eg:
                      > > >>>> <http://users.ugent.be/%7Emvaneech/Verhaegen & Munro. New
                      > > >>>> directions in palaeoanthropology.pdf>
                      > > >>>> So only the *combination* is strange (strange but not
                      > > >>>> unexplainable). A lot of animals are strange, eg, aardvarks,
                      > > >>>> elephants. Hippos are strange whales, platypuses are strange
                      > > >>>> mammals etc. In our case it happened in a rel.short time, but
                      > > >>>> in times of great changes (ice times) it's not unexpected that
                      > > >>>> some animals can undergo great changes.
                      > > >>>> (Whether strongly-changing >
                      > > >>>> animals will generally survive long is not so likely IMO.)
                      > >
                      > > >>>>> ... There is such an incredible leap in mental social
                      > > >>>>> powers in this hominoid.
                      > >
                      > > >>>> IMO that is an anthropocentric prejudice, DD, eg, we have
                      > > >>>> no evidence that chimps have less insight/feeling in the
                      > > >>>> psyche of the members of their group or in the relations
                      > > >>>> between these members than we have.
                      > >
                      > > >>> IMO Marc it is the opposite, Humans have an obsession with
                      > > >>> wanting to find human-like insight and feeling in other
                      > > >>> species (to prove we are not alone? as the most difficult
                      > > >>> of all things would be to discover humanity is alone, the
                      > > >>> sole sentient species in a Universe teeming with life). ---m3d
                      > >
                      > > >> We are curious animals, but so is my dog when I see him
                      > > >> sniffing around.
                      > >
                      > > > Dogs live in a world dominated by scents, to them
                      > > > smell is everything.
                      > >
                      > > Yes.
                      > >
                      > > >> That we are probably more curious in many instances
                      > > >> than most other spp (but what about, eg, dolphins &
                      > > >> elephants?) might be due to our very big brain,
                      > > >> to language (+ the accumulated knowledge) & to our
                      > > >> abundant leisure time - all these factors have logical
                      > > >> possible explanations IMO. --Marc
                      > >
                      > > > Predators (lions) on the savanna, probably had more
                      > > > leisure time than our ancestors.
                      > >
                      > > Yes, but without very big brains (aquatic past) or language
                      (arboreal +
                      > > aquatic + suction). Dextrous hands (primates) might also have been a
                      > factor.
                      > > Omnivory idem.
                      > >
                      > > My point is that there are no objective criteria to compare humans
                      with
                      > > other animals without being anthropocentric. Elephants can
                      equally well
                      > > argue that they are unique.
                      > >
                      > > > Can't see an elephant or any other mammal calculating
                      > > > to the nth degree the distance around the equator, the
                      > > > orbit of an outer planet that can be seen by the naked
                      > > > human eye ... write and read music at mere five years
                      > > > of age (Mozart), or have Archimedes insight in how to
                      > > > test the density of pure gold.
                      > >
                      > > Anthropocentric view, m3d. I can't see tiny creatures making huge
                      hills
                      > > (termites). Many birds (at younger ages) make faster rhythms &
                      melodies
                      > > than Mozart. Etc. Every species is unique, and it's difficult,
                      > perhaps
                      > > impossible, & IMO futile to try to compare this. On what criteria?
                      > and to
                      > > what purpose? and what would it tell us?
                      > > But of course it's clear that humans have gone through a very complex
                      > > evolution at least the last 2 My.
                      > >
                      > > > In evolutionary terms, we walk alone. ---m3d
                      > >
                      > > --Marc
                      > >
                      > > _____
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > >>>>> ... WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>> A lot of things must have happened after the H/P split, very
                      > > > importantly
                      > > >>>> something at the waterside, but the exact details are still
                      > > > uncertain.
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>>> ... I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                      > > >>> chapter of
                      > > >>>>> enquiry.
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>> Yes, I think I understand what you mean, DD. We now have
                      sensible
                      > > >>> answers
                      > > >>>> to a lot of questions that when I was young never had hoped
                      to see
                      > > >>> answered.
                      > > >>>> IMO we have now the great lines of the answers to what makes us
                      > > >>> different
                      > > >>>> form chimps etc. But there are still a lot of unanswered
                      problems
                      > > >>> in human
                      > > >>>> evolution. I very much hope you wil remain active at this
                      forum or
                      > > >>> at least
                      > > >>>> in the field of human evolution, DD?
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>
                      > > >
                      >
                      http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/cosmography_of_the_blogosphere.php
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Humans are very strange apes.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Although possessing 90+% identical genetic recipe, none of our
                      > > > closest
                      > > >>>>> kin could ever produce the above link, where multiple levels of
                      > > >>>>> symbolic mental thoughts and processes exist...
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> occasionally a hominoid sits at a desk (no food)
                      > > >>>>> plucks and guides a mouse,
                      > > >>>>> and pecks at a keyboard
                      > > >>>>> composed of dead algae and dinosaurs (oil-plastic)
                      > > >>>>> with small unnatural alphabetical symbols
                      > > >>>>> to communicate imaginary thoughts
                      > > >>>>> about what is happening billions of light years away
                      > > >>>>> from this insignificant ball of H2O-covered dust
                      > > >>>>> we call Earth.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Was sustained coastal/seashore living really the answer?
                      Abundant
                      > > >>>>> brain-power foods, complex environment but generally
                      > non-threatening
                      > > >>>>> for infants, increased sociality... definitely an island
                      > effect, but
                      > > >>>>> perhaps geographically periodically peninsular or archipelago?
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Sessile food foraging at waterside: A major part, yes, I've no
                      > doubt
                      > > >>>>> at all.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> But,
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Seriously.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> No other life form has done anything comparable.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> And why are today's super-intelligent hominoids
                      > > >>>>> often so incredibly stupid,
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> physically primitive yet super-derived,
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> with so many individuals afraid to swim
                      > > >>>>> yet some being better swimmers than some cetaceans
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> some afraid to climb trees, others climb as well as monkeys or
                      > apes
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Our species got a software upgrade obviously
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> yet still susceptible to viruses
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Hominoids obviously spent tine at marine coasts, before some
                      moved
                      > > >>>>> inland, adapting incompletely to arboreal or terre-arboreal
                      > > > lifestyles
                      > > >>>>> and forgetting the past coastal habitat and behaviour.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Homo sapiens has more recently done the same, but trade,
                      > ritual and
                      > > >>>>> communication carry enough importance so that no truly isolated
                      > > >>>>> sapiens population has existed for very long periods,
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> and today all are linked to all. No man is an island. The
                      > other apes
                      > > >>>>> were isolated, and now suffer for that, remnants remain.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> The LCA Hominoid was a coastal social animal, with monkey-like
                      > > > calls,
                      > > >>>>> a few symbols and gestures, at home in the shallows and the low
                      > > >>>>> coastal canopy, eating brain-powered foods, which initially
                      > probably
                      > > >>>>> didn't do much, but eventually mutations selected for better
                      > > >>>>> harvesting and nutritional variety.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Homo simply increased that, in new ways, over time.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Sapiens increased it moreso, while becoming as distant from the
                      > > > source
                      > > >>>>> as the other hominoids, but stayed linked through technology,
                      > > >>>>> communication, trust, trade.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Technology = tinkering, usefulness + novelty
                      > > >>>>> ore/core + tek/chip/sharp -> repeated patterns
                      > > >>>>> reed weaving -> pattern recognition, nest -> net
                      > > >>>>> long infant care -> mimicry, mirror neurons
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Slow climbing, slow wading, slow diving, slow walking, slow
                      > running,
                      > > >>>>> slow breathing, slow lifestyle -> slow growth, long life, slow
                      > > >>>>> learning (yet comprehensive) -> play -> fast animals on earth or
                      > > > moon.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> I joined AAT because I sought a better understanding of the
                      > > > process of
                      > > >>>>> what happened.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Having learned much, including some new ideas, I grasp the major
                      > > > steps
                      > > >>>>> that must have occurred, though many steps elude me, and some
                      > always
                      > > >>>>> will, which is ok.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> The fact that I'm far from warm tropical seashores devastates
                      > me, as
                      > > >>>>> I've been unable to test what needed to be tested, to prove
                      > what now
                      > > >>>>> appears obvious via circumstantial evidence.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> I don't know what is next, but I think I've finished this
                      > chapter of
                      > > >>>>> enquiry. The specifics of which group trekked this way or that
                      > > > is less
                      > > >>>>> significant to me than that they kept a lifeline to the
                      seashores,
                      > > >>>>> unlike other hominoids and anthropoids, and that has made
                      all the
                      > > >>>>> difference.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> My success in natural human research has paralleled my
                      failure in
                      > > >>>>> social equity (rituals, funds, status).
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> School of hard knocks, Doctorate in Digging, Diving and
                      > Discovering,
                      > > >>>>> no diploma issued but requisite courses fulfilled.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> I'm now trying to write a grant proposal to Save the Redwoods
                      > > >>>>> foundation, based on a 20 yr timber stand improvement cycle and
                      > > > 2,000
                      > > >>>>> year harvest rotation for the northern California Redwood
                      > > > forest, and
                      > > >>>>> incorporating a unique triaxial weaving method of camp-hut
                      > > >>>>> construction using thin long flexible planks of redwood woven
                      > in a 5
                      > > >>>>> pointed star fashion, insulated with air-mattresses (soap-bubble
                      > > >>>>> filled foam) lining the walls, central camp stove and smokehole,
                      > > > etc.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> Happy Halloween to those celebrating it, may the great
                      pumpkin be
                      > > >>>>> generous.
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>
                      > > >
                      >
                      http://news.yahoo.com/comics/081025/cx_peanuts_umedia/20082510;_ylt=AhTa0xxRfZ
                      > > >>>>> hIC1QV2JX_TXMJ_b4F
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>> :-)
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>>> peace & peanuts
                      > > >>>>>
                      > > >>>>> DD
                      > > >>>>
                      > > >>>> --Marc
                      > > >>
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
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