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Re: [AAT] Updated my Mermaid Book

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  • Leif Ekblad
    A very interesting book overall, but I can see a few problems and inconsistencies in it. The evidence of sea people in Africa is practically non-existent. The
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 1, 2008
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      A very interesting book overall, but I can see a few problems and
      inconsistencies in it.

      The evidence of sea people in Africa is practically non-existent. The West
      African sample very likely
      is the result of Caucasian migration. We should find sea people all around
      the African coast as we do in south
      Asia, which we do not.

      The suggestion of Neanderthals as an male dominated species seems totally
      unfounded. Instead, every
      evidence is pointing to nothern Homo as the originator of sea people and
      matriarchy. Just a few examples
      why this is so:

      1. Modern Africans are the most r-selected population anywhere in the world,
      while the K-selected
      populations live at high latitudes. In the book, K-selection is associated
      with matriarchy while r-selection
      is associated with patriarchy.

      2. The introduction of patriarchy in Europe and Middle East seems to be
      consistent with African
      migration from Egypt, where first ancient Egypt and then Middle Eastern
      civilizations become
      patriarchal.

      3. The advantage for female divers is most pronounced in cold climates,
      which means there is
      every reason to belive that matriarchy couldn't have evolved in the tropics.

      4. Oreopithecus is not an African primate, but an European. The link with
      African primates is
      very weak or nonexistent.

      5. Neanderthals probably had strong bones both to be able to accumulate fat
      and because of
      their hunting methods. In the book, cold-adapted divers need a lot of fat,
      which is exactly what
      Neanderthals seems to be built for accumulating.

      I also would like to see a lot more documentation of what males actually do
      in sea-peoples.
      As it is now, they are basically not described at all. Having males doing
      nothing doesn't look
      like a sustainable culture.

      As I see it, basically all the evidences that are presented are from after
      the hybridization between
      Hs and Hn. This doesn't exactly support that humans have lived like sea
      people for milliions
      of years, and it cannot show us whom originated the traits and how they
      survived until our
      time. There must be some kind of link all the way from Oreopithecus to
      todays sea people,
      but it seems pretty inconceivable that it goes through the evolution of Homo
      in the tropics.
      The evolution of matriarchy practically demands some features that will stop
      males from
      ganging up against females, and with no advantage for females in the tropics
      over males,
      and much larger populations, this route to evolve matriarchy seems very
      remote. Small, isolated
      Neanderthal groups, OTOH, seems like the perfect environment where this
      could have evolved,
      and likewise do Homo erectus populations in other higher latitude
      environments. The bonobo
      analogy simply doesn't work because bonobo males do not invest anything in
      their offspring,
      and humans have long childhoods that require paternal contribution for best
      results.

      Leif Ekblad

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "William Bond" <wabond@...>
      To: <AAT@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:38 AM
      Subject: [AAT] Updated my Mermaid Book


      > Hi Everyone
      >
      > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
      >
      > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
      >
      > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
      > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid myths
      > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama and
      > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea People.
      >
      > William Bond
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Community email addresses:
      > Post message: AAT@onelist.com
      > Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
      > Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
      > List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
      >
      > Shortcut URL to this page:
      > http://www.onelist.com/community/AATYahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Christina Bj
      My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read your book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but was afraid after I saw the number
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 1, 2008
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        My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read your
        book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but was afraid
        after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am about 3
        fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your book. You
        present many ideas about human history that combine folktales with
        written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically adapted
        human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are excellent,
        and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination, genocide
        of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing to read,
        but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people we don't
        agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad. Here, in
        Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the native
        americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal consequence.
        Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in our history
        books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I started
        asking questions and demanding answers. The native people here still
        look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only learn from
        our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend this stuff
        didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have to 'fess
        up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that is
        easier to read and can be disseminated.
        Tina Bjornstad


        "William Bond" <wabond@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Everyone
        >
        > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
        >
        > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
        >
        > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
        > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid myths
        > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama and
        > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea People.
        >
        > William Bond
        >
      • William Bond
        Hi Leif Thank you for reading my book. Most of our knowledge of pre-history is of a very little amount of evidence and a enormous about of speculation. ...
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 1, 2008
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          Hi Leif

          Thank you for reading my book.

          Most of our knowledge of pre-history is of a very little amount of
          evidence and a enormous about of speculation.

          > The evidence of sea people in Africa is practically non-existent.

          Yes, i agree that evidence for African sea people is small, but it is
          there. The Bijago people were seen using large sea-going canoes that
          could hold 70 people. You also have to remember that the first
          European explorers and scholars whom we get our information from, were
          racialists. So they had no interest in reporting any African
          achievements. Saying that African sea voyaging was the result of
          European influence would be an example of this.

          Also tribal wars in Africa continue even today. So I personally think
          the African Sea-People were probably wiped out in these tribal wars.
          Sea People do seem to be more peaceful than people living inland and
          were less likely to be able to defend themselves from more violent
          inland tribes.

          > The suggestion of Neanderthals as an male dominated species seems
          totally unfounded.

          We know nothing whatsoever about the social life of Neanderthals so
          what i say in my book about them is only theory and speculation. But
          this is also true of any other theory people might have about
          Neanderthals. If you have theories about Neanderthals that are
          different to mine then i don't see anyway for us to prove which is
          correct.

          > 1. Modern Africans are the most r-selected population anywhere in
          the world.

          I personally don't have any knowledge of r-selected or k-selection.
          And this i suppose goes back to the nature V nurture debate. I
          personally don't believe everything can be explained through genetics
          but will admit that they do have an influence on people's behaviour
          but just how much influence is open to question.

          > 2. The introduction of patriarchy in Europe and Middle East seems to be
          > consistent with African
          > migration from Egypt,

          Theories about how and why people became patriarchal at the end of the
          Neolithic age is also speculation. Patriarchy seemed to have spread
          like a plague right around the world, but where was the origins of
          this plague i don't know.

          > 3. The advantage for female divers is most pronounced in cold climates,
          > which means there is
          > every reason to belive that matriarchy couldn't have evolved in the
          tropics.

          The advantages of female divers in cold water may not be the only
          reason why people became matriarchal. Sumatra is right on the Equator
          and according to Peggy Reeves Sanday, the Minangkabau people are the
          largest matriarchal in the world. You can read more about this at,-

          http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/

          > 4. Oreopithecus is not an African primate, but an European. The link
          with
          > African primates is
          > very weak or nonexistent.

          Well i agree there is no link between Oreopithecus and African
          primates i don't think i said this.

          > 5. Neanderthals probably had strong bones both to be able to
          accumulate fat
          > and because of
          > their hunting methods. In the book, cold-adapted divers need a lot
          of fat,
          > which is exactly what
          > Neanderthals seems to be built for accumulating.

          Excess fat would weigh down any hunter running after game. it would
          make far more sense for Neanderthals to grow fur instead of becoming
          more fatter. As fur would be a lot lighter and is better insulation on
          land.

          > I also would like to see a lot more documentation of what males
          actually do
          > in sea-peoples.
          > As it is now, they are basically not described at all. Having males
          doing
          > nothing doesn't look
          > like a sustainable culture.

          The evidence from Haenyo communities on Cheju is that the men stayed
          at home to look after the children and the house. Which to me is
          sensible, men being bigger and stronger than women are more able to
          protect children.

          But evidence of men doing nothing is fairly commonplace. In Africa
          today in some tribes, women do all the farming, building the huts,
          doing the cooking fetching water and looking after the children, the
          men do nothing. And they have been like this for thousands of years.

          The bonobo
          > analogy simply doesn't work because bonobo males do not invest
          anything in
          > their offspring,
          > and humans have long childhoods that require paternal contribution
          for best
          > results.

          I think the fact that humans have far longer childhoods than any other
          animal is the strongest argument for matriarchy in human evolution.
          Only in a matriarchy would people invest all their time and resources
          into childcare. In a patriarchal society childcare is of little
          importance to the alpha males of the tribe. So if we were patriarchal
          in our evolution it would be very unlikely to evolve to a state when
          human children are so helpless for the first years of its life, and
          take so long to grow to full size.

          The only other land animal with a childhood as nearly as long as
          humans is the Elephant. Where adult males are pushed out of the herd
          and the herd is ruled by females.

          William Bond







          --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Ekblad" <leif@...> wrote:
          >
          > A very interesting book overall, but I can see a few problems and
          > inconsistencies in it.
          >
          > The evidence of sea people in Africa is practically non-existent.
          The West
          > African sample very likely
          > is the result of Caucasian migration. We should find sea people all
          around
          > the African coast as we do in south
          > Asia, which we do not.
          >
          > The suggestion of Neanderthals as an male dominated species seems
          totally
          > unfounded. Instead, every
          > evidence is pointing to nothern Homo as the originator of sea people
          and
          > matriarchy. Just a few examples
          > why this is so:
          >
          > 1. Modern Africans are the most r-selected population anywhere in
          the world,
          > while the K-selected
          > populations live at high latitudes. In the book, K-selection is
          associated
          > with matriarchy while r-selection
          > is associated with patriarchy.
          >
          > 2. The introduction of patriarchy in Europe and Middle East seems to be
          > consistent with African
          > migration from Egypt, where first ancient Egypt and then Middle Eastern
          > civilizations become
          > patriarchal.
          >
          > 3. The advantage for female divers is most pronounced in cold climates,
          > which means there is
          > every reason to belive that matriarchy couldn't have evolved in the
          tropics.
          >
          > 4. Oreopithecus is not an African primate, but an European. The link
          with
          > African primates is
          > very weak or nonexistent.
          >
          > 5. Neanderthals probably had strong bones both to be able to
          accumulate fat
          > and because of
          > their hunting methods. In the book, cold-adapted divers need a lot
          of fat,
          > which is exactly what
          > Neanderthals seems to be built for accumulating.
          >
          > I also would like to see a lot more documentation of what males
          actually do
          > in sea-peoples.
          > As it is now, they are basically not described at all. Having males
          doing
          > nothing doesn't look
          > like a sustainable culture.
          >
          > As I see it, basically all the evidences that are presented are from
          after
          > the hybridization between
          > Hs and Hn. This doesn't exactly support that humans have lived like sea
          > people for milliions
          > of years, and it cannot show us whom originated the traits and how they
          > survived until our
          > time. There must be some kind of link all the way from Oreopithecus to
          > todays sea people,
          > but it seems pretty inconceivable that it goes through the evolution
          of Homo
          > in the tropics.
          > The evolution of matriarchy practically demands some features that
          will stop
          > males from
          > ganging up against females, and with no advantage for females in the
          tropics
          > over males,
          > and much larger populations, this route to evolve matriarchy seems very
          > remote. Small, isolated
          > Neanderthal groups, OTOH, seems like the perfect environment where this
          > could have evolved,
          > and likewise do Homo erectus populations in other higher latitude
          > environments. The bonobo
          > analogy simply doesn't work because bonobo males do not invest
          anything in
          > their offspring,
          > and humans have long childhoods that require paternal contribution
          for best
          > results.
          >
          > Leif Ekblad
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "William Bond" <wabond@...>
          > To: <AAT@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 9:38 AM
          > Subject: [AAT] Updated my Mermaid Book
          >
          >
          > > Hi Everyone
          > >
          > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
          > >
          > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
          > >
          > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
          > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid myths
          > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama and
          > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea People.
          > >
          > > William Bond
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Community email addresses:
          > > Post message: AAT@onelist.com
          > > Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
          > > Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
          > > List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
          > >
          > > Shortcut URL to this page:
          > > http://www.onelist.com/community/AATYahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • William Bond
          Hi Chrisina I m sorry you had problems reading my book, I don t really know how to present it in a better form. I have gone into what it would cost getting it
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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            Hi Chrisina

            I'm sorry you had problems reading my book, I don't really know how to
            present it in a better form. I have gone into what it would cost
            getting it printed and it is also a complicated process. Though i
            might end up doing this if there is a big enough demand for it.

            Thank you for you kind comments I'm glad you like my book.

            I'm afraid i didn't put in the worse aspects of the genocide of the
            coastal people. I did have problems writing about this, but felt that
            people should know about it. So i didn't go into too much detail of
            just how brutal and horrendous it really was.

            I was brought up in Australia and like you i was told nothing about
            how badly the natives were treated by the white settlers. At school we
            were told about the Tasmanian Aboriginals dying out but were not told
            it was the result of genocide.

            I have been writing to publishers and agents to try and get it
            published but in the end i might have to do it myself.

            William Bond


            --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Bj" <cbjornstad@...> wrote:
            >
            > My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read your
            > book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but was afraid
            > after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am about 3
            > fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your book. You
            > present many ideas about human history that combine folktales with
            > written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically adapted
            > human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are excellent,
            > and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination, genocide
            > of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing to read,
            > but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people we don't
            > agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad. Here, in
            > Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the native
            > americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal consequence.
            > Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in our history
            > books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I started
            > asking questions and demanding answers. The native people here still
            > look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only learn from
            > our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend this stuff
            > didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have to 'fess
            > up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that is
            > easier to read and can be disseminated.
            > Tina Bjornstad
            >
            >
            > "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Everyone
            > >
            > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
            > >
            > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
            > >
            > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
            > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid myths
            > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama and
            > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea People.
            > >
            > > William Bond
            > >
            >
          • Leif Ekblad
            ... Yes, but the same thing happened in America, and we do have evidence for sea people in America. In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
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              William Bond:
              > Yes, i agree that evidence for African sea people is small, but it is
              > there. The Bijago people were seen using large sea-going canoes that
              > could hold 70 people. You also have to remember that the first
              > European explorers and scholars whom we get our information from, were
              > racialists. So they had no interest in reporting any African
              > achievements. Saying that African sea voyaging was the result of
              > European influence would be an example of this.

              Yes, but the same thing happened in America, and we do have evidence
              for sea people in America.

              In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in Africa, and
              basically none of the reports can be verified. One might actually suspect
              that some or all of these reports indeed were fabricated to prove how
              backwards
              Africans were, women ruling over men and all that.

              > Also tribal wars in Africa continue even today. So I personally think
              > the African Sea-People were probably wiped out in these tribal wars.
              > Sea People do seem to be more peaceful than people living inland and
              > were less likely to be able to defend themselves from more violent
              > inland tribes.

              Why then do these still live in equally poor and rural countries in South
              Asia?

              > We know nothing whatsoever about the social life of Neanderthals so
              > what i say in my book about them is only theory and speculation. But
              > this is also true of any other theory people might have about
              > Neanderthals. If you have theories about Neanderthals that are
              > different to mine then i don't see anyway for us to prove which is
              > correct.

              I just think you should leave this information out as it would weaken
              the rest of the material that is very well put together and referenced.

              As for Neanderthals, my theory is that Neanderthals did contribute to
              our genes, and that their traits today are classified as "mental disorders"
              in a very similar way as sea people has been persecuted for not being
              like ordinary people. I also suspect there is a link between sea people
              and Neanderthal inheritance. Especially since I've found that liking
              water is linked to probable Neanderthal inheritance. See more
              here: http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

              > I personally don't have any knowledge of r-selected or k-selection.
              > And this i suppose goes back to the nature V nurture debate. I
              > personally don't believe everything can be explained through genetics
              > but will admit that they do have an influence on people's behaviour
              > but just how much influence is open to question.

              Rushton has a list of r vs K selected traits in his book. For instance,
              Africans have more twinning, are more sexually active, reproduce earlier
              and so on.

              > Excess fat would weigh down any hunter running after game. it would
              > make far more sense for Neanderthals to grow fur instead of becoming
              > more fatter. As fur would be a lot lighter and is better insulation on
              > land.

              I think they had both. Fat accumulation to store for the winter and
              fur to keep warm.

              > But evidence of men doing nothing is fairly commonplace. In Africa
              > today in some tribes, women do all the farming, building the huts,
              > doing the cooking fetching water and looking after the children, the
              > men do nothing. And they have been like this for thousands of years.

              They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
              of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
              men and put them in work. :-)

              > I think the fact that humans have far longer childhoods than any other
              > animal is the strongest argument for matriarchy in human evolution.
              > Only in a matriarchy would people invest all their time and resources
              > into childcare. In a patriarchal society childcare is of little
              > importance to the alpha males of the tribe. So if we were patriarchal
              > in our evolution it would be very unlikely to evolve to a state when
              > human children are so helpless for the first years of its life, and
              > take so long to grow to full size.
              >
              > The only other land animal with a childhood as nearly as long as
              > humans is the Elephant. Where adult males are pushed out of the herd
              > and the herd is ruled by females.

              But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
              at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
              with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
              bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.

              Leif Ekblad
            • William Bond
              Leif Ekblad ... You could try http://www.saunalahti.fi/penelope/Feminism/matrifoc.html on the internet. But i would also recommend the books of Eva Meyerowitz,
              Message 6 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Leif Ekblad

                >In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in Africa

                You could try http://www.saunalahti.fi/penelope/Feminism/matrifoc.html
                on the internet. But i would also recommend the books of Eva
                Meyerowitz, "The Akan Of Ghan", "The Sacred State Of The Akan". I'm
                afraid they are out of print now. She was a anthropologist and studied
                a African tribe that was once matriarchal, and their history charts
                how over the generations the tribe was changed form matriarchy to
                patriarchy.

                > Why then do these, (Sea people) still live in equally poor and rural
                countries in South
                > Asia?

                I suppose the people of South East Asia were more tolerant of people
                different to themselves than people of Africa and Europe.

                > I just think you should leave this information out (Neanderthals) as
                it would weaken
                > the rest of the material that is very well put together and referenced.

                I would prefer to leave it in because most theories of our evolution
                leaves out the role of women completely. This is one theory that give
                prominence to the female role.

                > They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
                > of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
                > men and put them in work. :-)

                I agree, if men don't have a role in the community they will make war,
                and in the process become violent and dominate the Women through
                violence.

                > But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
                > at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
                > with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
                > bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.

                I personally am not sure that humans are naturally monogamist. They
                perhaps were when marriage was strictly enforced but now the
                institution of marriage is breaking down we find many people getting
                divorced and marrying again, having affairs or one-night-stands. Even
                when marriage was enforced, men still went to prostitutes and rich men
                had mistresses. Also in Moslem countries, men (if they are rich
                enough) can have many wifes.

                You can say that a Gibbon is naturally monogamist because they pair up
                naturally without it being enforced by social pressure and laws. The
                same is not true of humans.

                William Bond



                --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Ekblad" <leif@...> wrote:
                >
                > William Bond:
                > > Yes, i agree that evidence for African sea people is small, but it is
                > > there. The Bijago people were seen using large sea-going canoes that
                > > could hold 70 people. You also have to remember that the first
                > > European explorers and scholars whom we get our information from, were
                > > racialists. So they had no interest in reporting any African
                > > achievements. Saying that African sea voyaging was the result of
                > > European influence would be an example of this.
                >
                > Yes, but the same thing happened in America, and we do have evidence
                > for sea people in America.
                >
                > In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in
                Africa, and
                > basically none of the reports can be verified. One might actually
                suspect
                > that some or all of these reports indeed were fabricated to prove how
                > backwards
                > Africans were, women ruling over men and all that.
                >
                > > Also tribal wars in Africa continue even today. So I personally think
                > > the African Sea-People were probably wiped out in these tribal wars.
                > > Sea People do seem to be more peaceful than people living inland and
                > > were less likely to be able to defend themselves from more violent
                > > inland tribes.
                >
                > Why then do these still live in equally poor and rural countries in
                South
                > Asia?
                >
                > > We know nothing whatsoever about the social life of Neanderthals so
                > > what i say in my book about them is only theory and speculation. But
                > > this is also true of any other theory people might have about
                > > Neanderthals. If you have theories about Neanderthals that are
                > > different to mine then i don't see anyway for us to prove which is
                > > correct.
                >
                > I just think you should leave this information out as it would weaken
                > the rest of the material that is very well put together and referenced.
                >
                > As for Neanderthals, my theory is that Neanderthals did contribute to
                > our genes, and that their traits today are classified as "mental
                disorders"
                > in a very similar way as sea people has been persecuted for not being
                > like ordinary people. I also suspect there is a link between sea people
                > and Neanderthal inheritance. Especially since I've found that liking
                > water is linked to probable Neanderthal inheritance. See more
                > here: http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm
                >
                > > I personally don't have any knowledge of r-selected or k-selection.
                > > And this i suppose goes back to the nature V nurture debate. I
                > > personally don't believe everything can be explained through genetics
                > > but will admit that they do have an influence on people's behaviour
                > > but just how much influence is open to question.
                >
                > Rushton has a list of r vs K selected traits in his book. For instance,
                > Africans have more twinning, are more sexually active, reproduce earlier
                > and so on.
                >
                > > Excess fat would weigh down any hunter running after game. it would
                > > make far more sense for Neanderthals to grow fur instead of becoming
                > > more fatter. As fur would be a lot lighter and is better insulation on
                > > land.
                >
                > I think they had both. Fat accumulation to store for the winter and
                > fur to keep warm.
                >
                > > But evidence of men doing nothing is fairly commonplace. In Africa
                > > today in some tribes, women do all the farming, building the huts,
                > > doing the cooking fetching water and looking after the children, the
                > > men do nothing. And they have been like this for thousands of years.
                >
                > They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
                > of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
                > men and put them in work. :-)
                >
                > > I think the fact that humans have far longer childhoods than any other
                > > animal is the strongest argument for matriarchy in human evolution.
                > > Only in a matriarchy would people invest all their time and resources
                > > into childcare. In a patriarchal society childcare is of little
                > > importance to the alpha males of the tribe. So if we were patriarchal
                > > in our evolution it would be very unlikely to evolve to a state when
                > > human children are so helpless for the first years of its life, and
                > > take so long to grow to full size.
                > >
                > > The only other land animal with a childhood as nearly as long as
                > > humans is the Elephant. Where adult males are pushed out of the herd
                > > and the herd is ruled by females.
                >
                > But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
                > at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
                > with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
                > bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.
                >
                > Leif Ekblad
                >
              • William Bond
                Hi Christina A printed version of my Mermaid book is now available, at - http://www.lulu.com/content/2647220 I went onto Lulu.com and made up a book.
                Message 7 of 14 , Jun 2, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Christina

                  A printed version of my Mermaid book is now available, at -

                  http://www.lulu.com/content/2647220

                  I went onto Lulu.com and made up a book. Unfortunately because it is a
                  coloured book, with many coloured illustrations in it this pushes up
                  the price to £23,(about $46) which is a lot of money.

                  I can cut the price down to about a third of this by printing a black
                  and white book, so the pictures won't be as good. Anyway i hope to get
                  this done sometime this week and i will let you know when i have
                  finished it. I'm not doing this just for your sake, it did occur to me
                  that if you would prefer a printed version of my book then perhaps a
                  few other people might want this as well.

                  William Bond


                  --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Bj" <cbjornstad@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read your
                  > book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but was afraid
                  > after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am about 3
                  > fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your book. You
                  > present many ideas about human history that combine folktales with
                  > written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically adapted
                  > human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are excellent,
                  > and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination, genocide
                  > of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing to read,
                  > but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people we don't
                  > agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad. Here, in
                  > Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the native
                  > americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal consequence.
                  > Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in our history
                  > books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I started
                  > asking questions and demanding answers. The native people here still
                  > look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only learn from
                  > our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend this stuff
                  > didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have to 'fess
                  > up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that is
                  > easier to read and can be disseminated.
                  > Tina Bjornstad
                  >
                  >
                  > "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Everyone
                  > >
                  > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
                  > >
                  > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
                  > >
                  > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
                  > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid myths
                  > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama and
                  > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea People.
                  > >
                  > > William Bond
                  > >
                  >
                • bender_renato
                  Hi William I was planing to send some observations to your book, but I was too late! First I want to congratulate you for this book, even if I do not agree
                  Message 8 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
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                    Hi William

                    I was planing to send some observations to your book, but I was too
                    late!

                    First I want to congratulate you for this book, even if I do not
                    agree with you in your main statements. It seems that you invested a
                    lot of energy to write it.

                    I am also interested on mermaids since many years, but with a very
                    different perspective. I am researching the influence of early
                    mermaids-stories on the emergence of first evolutionary ideas in the
                    18th century (to be precise: I am searching the influence of the
                    plurality of the worlds-discussion on the origin of the first
                    evolutionary ideas, and the belief on mermaids is part of this
                    tradition).

                    As I already said, I do not agree with your interpretation of
                    mermaids as being a direct clue to our evolutionary past. Mermaids
                    are one among thousand of different mithological creatures, and I do
                    not think that every single of these creatures represent a reality in
                    our past (this oppinion was defended in early 20th century by Edgar
                    Dacqué, a great paleontologist who at the end of his career began to
                    write mystical and religious books; he also liked Westenhöfer's
                    Aquatile Hypothese). The fact that the creation of some mythological
                    creatures are connected with real animals does not mean that this is
                    also the case in the early mermaids-stories. I am afraid that other
                    scientists will say the same about this point.

                    Anyway, I am sure that your book is a very valeable source of
                    information on this topic, and of course I will order one exemplar.

                    William, how about the copyright of the pictures? Did you informe
                    yourself about this topic?

                    kind regards,

                    Renato Bender
                    --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com
                    , "William Bond" <wabond@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Christina
                    >
                    > A printed version of my Mermaid book is now available, at -
                    >
                    > http://www.lulu.com/content/2647220
                    >
                    > I went onto Lulu.com and made up a book. Unfortunately because it
                    is a
                    > coloured book, with many coloured illustrations in it this pushes up
                    > the price to £23,(about $46) which is a lot of money.
                    >
                    > I can cut the price down to about a third of this by printing a
                    black
                    > and white book, so the pictures won't be as good. Anyway i hope to
                    get
                    > this done sometime this week and i will let you know when i have
                    > finished it. I'm not doing this just for your sake, it did occur to
                    me
                    > that if you would prefer a printed version of my book then perhaps a
                    > few other people might want this as well.
                    >
                    > William Bond
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Bj" <cbjornstad@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read
                    your
                    > > book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but was
                    afraid
                    > > after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am
                    about 3
                    > > fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your book.
                    You
                    > > present many ideas about human history that combine folktales
                    with
                    > > written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically
                    adapted
                    > > human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are
                    excellent,
                    > > and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination,
                    genocide
                    > > of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing to
                    read,
                    > > but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people we
                    don't
                    > > agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad. Here,
                    in
                    > > Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the
                    native
                    > > americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal
                    consequence.
                    > > Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in our
                    history
                    > > books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I
                    started
                    > > asking questions and demanding answers. The native people here
                    still
                    > > look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only learn
                    from
                    > > our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend this
                    stuff
                    > > didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have
                    to 'fess
                    > > up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that is
                    > > easier to read and can be disseminated.
                    > > Tina Bjornstad
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Everyone
                    > > >
                    > > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
                    > > >
                    > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
                    > > >
                    > > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
                    > > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid
                    myths
                    > > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama
                    and
                    > > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea
                    People.
                    > > >
                    > > > William Bond
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • William Bond
                    Hi Renato I have been updating my book all the time. It started out a number of years ago as just an article, and has slowly grown bigger, until it is now a
                    Message 9 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi Renato

                      I have been updating my book all the time. It started out a number of
                      years ago as just an article, and has slowly grown bigger, until it is
                      now a book. I continue to collect information on this subject and put
                      it in when i feel up doing this. So I am interested in any helpful
                      information that i can include at a future date.

                      I don't claim that all mermaid sightings and myths are of Women
                      divers. There are stories of mermaids that are clearly Sea-Cows, Seals
                      and even whales, and off course there are people who do like telling
                      widely exaggerated stories. I have concentrated in my book of mermaid
                      sighting and myths that show them to be women divers. And there is
                      enough mermaid myths and sightings of this kind to satisfy me that
                      this was the origins of the mermaid myth.

                      I think i am alright with the copywrite, most of the paintings come
                      from the 18th and 19th century and the Ama photographs come from the
                      1950s. Though it is a bit hard because on the Internet people don't
                      say where these photographs come from or even who took them.

                      William




                      --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "bender_renato" <bender_renato@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi William
                      >
                      > I was planing to send some observations to your book, but I was too
                      > late!
                      >
                      > First I want to congratulate you for this book, even if I do not
                      > agree with you in your main statements. It seems that you invested a
                      > lot of energy to write it.
                      >
                      > I am also interested on mermaids since many years, but with a very
                      > different perspective. I am researching the influence of early
                      > mermaids-stories on the emergence of first evolutionary ideas in the
                      > 18th century (to be precise: I am searching the influence of the
                      > plurality of the worlds-discussion on the origin of the first
                      > evolutionary ideas, and the belief on mermaids is part of this
                      > tradition).
                      >
                      > As I already said, I do not agree with your interpretation of
                      > mermaids as being a direct clue to our evolutionary past. Mermaids
                      > are one among thousand of different mithological creatures, and I do
                      > not think that every single of these creatures represent a reality in
                      > our past (this oppinion was defended in early 20th century by Edgar
                      > Dacqué, a great paleontologist who at the end of his career began to
                      > write mystical and religious books; he also liked Westenhöfer's
                      > Aquatile Hypothese). The fact that the creation of some mythological
                      > creatures are connected with real animals does not mean that this is
                      > also the case in the early mermaids-stories. I am afraid that other
                      > scientists will say the same about this point.
                      >
                      > Anyway, I am sure that your book is a very valeable source of
                      > information on this topic, and of course I will order one exemplar.
                      >
                      > William, how about the copyright of the pictures? Did you informe
                      > yourself about this topic?
                      >
                      > kind regards,
                      >
                      > Renato Bender
                      > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com
                      > , "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi Christina
                      > >
                      > > A printed version of my Mermaid book is now available, at -
                      > >
                      > > http://www.lulu.com/content/2647220
                      > >
                      > > I went onto Lulu.com and made up a book. Unfortunately because it
                      > is a
                      > > coloured book, with many coloured illustrations in it this pushes up
                      > > the price to £23,(about $46) which is a lot of money.
                      > >
                      > > I can cut the price down to about a third of this by printing a
                      > black
                      > > and white book, so the pictures won't be as good. Anyway i hope to
                      > get
                      > > this done sometime this week and i will let you know when i have
                      > > finished it. I'm not doing this just for your sake, it did occur to
                      > me
                      > > that if you would prefer a printed version of my book then perhaps a
                      > > few other people might want this as well.
                      > >
                      > > William Bond
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Bj" <cbjornstad@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read
                      > your
                      > > > book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but was
                      > afraid
                      > > > after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am
                      > about 3
                      > > > fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your book.
                      > You
                      > > > present many ideas about human history that combine folktales
                      > with
                      > > > written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically
                      > adapted
                      > > > human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are
                      > excellent,
                      > > > and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination,
                      > genocide
                      > > > of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing to
                      > read,
                      > > > but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people we
                      > don't
                      > > > agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad. Here,
                      > in
                      > > > Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the
                      > native
                      > > > americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal
                      > consequence.
                      > > > Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in our
                      > history
                      > > > books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I
                      > started
                      > > > asking questions and demanding answers. The native people here
                      > still
                      > > > look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only learn
                      > from
                      > > > our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend this
                      > stuff
                      > > > didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have
                      > to 'fess
                      > > > up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that is
                      > > > easier to read and can be disseminated.
                      > > > Tina Bjornstad
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Hi Everyone
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-Amazons
                      > > > >
                      > > > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-aquatic
                      > > > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of mermaid
                      > myths
                      > > > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the Ama
                      > and
                      > > > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian Sea
                      > People.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > William Bond
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • DDeden
                      just a note: IIRC the Minangkabu of Sumatra are inland hill peoples, surrounded by near-sea peoples of the lowland coasts. ... referenced. ... it is ... from,
                      Message 10 of 14 , Jun 3, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        just a note: IIRC the Minangkabu of Sumatra are inland hill peoples,
                        surrounded by near-sea peoples of the lowland coasts.


                        --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "William Bond" <wabond@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Leif Ekblad
                        >
                        > >In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in Africa
                        >
                        > You could try http://www.saunalahti.fi/penelope/Feminism/matrifoc.html
                        > on the internet. But i would also recommend the books of Eva
                        > Meyerowitz, "The Akan Of Ghan", "The Sacred State Of The Akan". I'm
                        > afraid they are out of print now. She was a anthropologist and studied
                        > a African tribe that was once matriarchal, and their history charts
                        > how over the generations the tribe was changed form matriarchy to
                        > patriarchy.
                        >
                        > > Why then do these, (Sea people) still live in equally poor and rural
                        > countries in South
                        > > Asia?
                        >
                        > I suppose the people of South East Asia were more tolerant of people
                        > different to themselves than people of Africa and Europe.
                        >
                        > > I just think you should leave this information out (Neanderthals) as
                        > it would weaken
                        > > the rest of the material that is very well put together and
                        referenced.
                        >
                        > I would prefer to leave it in because most theories of our evolution
                        > leaves out the role of women completely. This is one theory that give
                        > prominence to the female role.
                        >
                        > > They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
                        > > of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
                        > > men and put them in work. :-)
                        >
                        > I agree, if men don't have a role in the community they will make war,
                        > and in the process become violent and dominate the Women through
                        > violence.
                        >
                        > > But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
                        > > at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
                        > > with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
                        > > bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.
                        >
                        > I personally am not sure that humans are naturally monogamist. They
                        > perhaps were when marriage was strictly enforced but now the
                        > institution of marriage is breaking down we find many people getting
                        > divorced and marrying again, having affairs or one-night-stands. Even
                        > when marriage was enforced, men still went to prostitutes and rich men
                        > had mistresses. Also in Moslem countries, men (if they are rich
                        > enough) can have many wifes.
                        >
                        > You can say that a Gibbon is naturally monogamist because they pair up
                        > naturally without it being enforced by social pressure and laws. The
                        > same is not true of humans.
                        >
                        > William Bond
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Ekblad" <leif@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > William Bond:
                        > > > Yes, i agree that evidence for African sea people is small, but
                        it is
                        > > > there. The Bijago people were seen using large sea-going canoes that
                        > > > could hold 70 people. You also have to remember that the first
                        > > > European explorers and scholars whom we get our information
                        from, were
                        > > > racialists. So they had no interest in reporting any African
                        > > > achievements. Saying that African sea voyaging was the result of
                        > > > European influence would be an example of this.
                        > >
                        > > Yes, but the same thing happened in America, and we do have evidence
                        > > for sea people in America.
                        > >
                        > > In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in
                        > Africa, and
                        > > basically none of the reports can be verified. One might actually
                        > suspect
                        > > that some or all of these reports indeed were fabricated to prove how
                        > > backwards
                        > > Africans were, women ruling over men and all that.
                        > >
                        > > > Also tribal wars in Africa continue even today. So I personally
                        think
                        > > > the African Sea-People were probably wiped out in these tribal wars.
                        > > > Sea People do seem to be more peaceful than people living inland and
                        > > > were less likely to be able to defend themselves from more violent
                        > > > inland tribes.
                        > >
                        > > Why then do these still live in equally poor and rural countries in
                        > South
                        > > Asia?
                        > >
                        > > > We know nothing whatsoever about the social life of Neanderthals so
                        > > > what i say in my book about them is only theory and speculation. But
                        > > > this is also true of any other theory people might have about
                        > > > Neanderthals. If you have theories about Neanderthals that are
                        > > > different to mine then i don't see anyway for us to prove which is
                        > > > correct.
                        > >
                        > > I just think you should leave this information out as it would weaken
                        > > the rest of the material that is very well put together and
                        referenced.
                        > >
                        > > As for Neanderthals, my theory is that Neanderthals did contribute to
                        > > our genes, and that their traits today are classified as "mental
                        > disorders"
                        > > in a very similar way as sea people has been persecuted for not being
                        > > like ordinary people. I also suspect there is a link between sea
                        people
                        > > and Neanderthal inheritance. Especially since I've found that liking
                        > > water is linked to probable Neanderthal inheritance. See more
                        > > here: http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm
                        > >
                        > > > I personally don't have any knowledge of r-selected or k-selection.
                        > > > And this i suppose goes back to the nature V nurture debate. I
                        > > > personally don't believe everything can be explained through
                        genetics
                        > > > but will admit that they do have an influence on people's behaviour
                        > > > but just how much influence is open to question.
                        > >
                        > > Rushton has a list of r vs K selected traits in his book. For
                        instance,
                        > > Africans have more twinning, are more sexually active, reproduce
                        earlier
                        > > and so on.
                        > >
                        > > > Excess fat would weigh down any hunter running after game. it would
                        > > > make far more sense for Neanderthals to grow fur instead of becoming
                        > > > more fatter. As fur would be a lot lighter and is better
                        insulation on
                        > > > land.
                        > >
                        > > I think they had both. Fat accumulation to store for the winter and
                        > > fur to keep warm.
                        > >
                        > > > But evidence of men doing nothing is fairly commonplace. In Africa
                        > > > today in some tribes, women do all the farming, building the huts,
                        > > > doing the cooking fetching water and looking after the children, the
                        > > > men do nothing. And they have been like this for thousands of years.
                        > >
                        > > They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
                        > > of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
                        > > men and put them in work. :-)
                        > >
                        > > > I think the fact that humans have far longer childhoods than any
                        other
                        > > > animal is the strongest argument for matriarchy in human evolution.
                        > > > Only in a matriarchy would people invest all their time and
                        resources
                        > > > into childcare. In a patriarchal society childcare is of little
                        > > > importance to the alpha males of the tribe. So if we were
                        patriarchal
                        > > > in our evolution it would be very unlikely to evolve to a state when
                        > > > human children are so helpless for the first years of its life, and
                        > > > take so long to grow to full size.
                        > > >
                        > > > The only other land animal with a childhood as nearly as long as
                        > > > humans is the Elephant. Where adult males are pushed out of the herd
                        > > > and the herd is ruled by females.
                        > >
                        > > But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
                        > > at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
                        > > with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
                        > > bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.
                        > >
                        > > Leif Ekblad
                        > >
                        >
                      • bender_renato
                        The parts you can improve is about the historical development of the mermaid-myth. The best works on the subject I know are published in German and French. I
                        Message 11 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The parts you can improve is about the historical development of the
                          mermaid-myth. The best works on the subject I know are published in
                          German and French. I give you a selection of essential studies:

                          Hofstetter, E. (1990): Sirenen im archaischen und klassischen
                          Griechenland. Konrad Triltsch Verlag, Würzburg. (an excellent study
                          on siren in archaich and classic Greece)

                          Wedner, S. (1994): Tradition und Wandel im allegorischen Verständnis
                          des Sirenenmythos. - Peter Lang, Berlin. (a study on the history of
                          reception of Homer, with special focus on the mythos of sirens)

                          Grübel, R.G. (1995): Sirenen und Kometen (history of the topic "water-
                          women" in Europen literature, especially in Slavic literature)

                          Heinisch, Klaus J. (1981): Der Wassermensch (the history of the
                          development of the motive "water man" - an essential work)

                          Holberg, U. (1997): Das Wasser des Lebens. - Amalia, Bern. (about
                          goddesses of water and water cult)

                          Leclercq-Marc, Jacqueline (1997): La sirène dans la pensée et dans
                          l'art de l'Antiquité et du Moyen Âge. (a book in French on the
                          history of the siren-myth in the classical antiquity and Middle-Ages)


                          I do not know if you understand German and French. Anyway, learning
                          these languages is not that difficult, especially if you have a clear
                          goal.

                          I hope I could help you with these references. I am planing myself to
                          finish a work I am writing on this topic since years, but at the
                          moment I do not have time for this project.

                          best wishes

                          Renato Bender


                          --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "William Bond" <wabond@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Renato
                          >
                          > I have been updating my book all the time. It started out a number
                          of
                          > years ago as just an article, and has slowly grown bigger, until it
                          is
                          > now a book. I continue to collect information on this subject and
                          put
                          > it in when i feel up doing this. So I am interested in any helpful
                          > information that i can include at a future date.
                          >
                          > I don't claim that all mermaid sightings and myths are of Women
                          > divers. There are stories of mermaids that are clearly Sea-Cows,
                          Seals
                          > and even whales, and off course there are people who do like telling
                          > widely exaggerated stories. I have concentrated in my book of
                          mermaid
                          > sighting and myths that show them to be women divers. And there is
                          > enough mermaid myths and sightings of this kind to satisfy me that
                          > this was the origins of the mermaid myth.
                          >
                          > I think i am alright with the copywrite, most of the paintings come
                          > from the 18th and 19th century and the Ama photographs come from the
                          > 1950s. Though it is a bit hard because on the Internet people don't
                          > say where these photographs come from or even who took them.
                          >
                          > William
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "bender_renato" <bender_renato@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi William
                          > >
                          > > I was planing to send some observations to your book, but I was
                          too
                          > > late!
                          > >
                          > > First I want to congratulate you for this book, even if I do not
                          > > agree with you in your main statements. It seems that you
                          invested a
                          > > lot of energy to write it.
                          > >
                          > > I am also interested on mermaids since many years, but with a
                          very
                          > > different perspective. I am researching the influence of early
                          > > mermaids-stories on the emergence of first evolutionary ideas in
                          the
                          > > 18th century (to be precise: I am searching the influence of the
                          > > plurality of the worlds-discussion on the origin of the first
                          > > evolutionary ideas, and the belief on mermaids is part of this
                          > > tradition).
                          > >
                          > > As I already said, I do not agree with your interpretation of
                          > > mermaids as being a direct clue to our evolutionary past.
                          Mermaids
                          > > are one among thousand of different mithological creatures, and I
                          do
                          > > not think that every single of these creatures represent a
                          reality in
                          > > our past (this oppinion was defended in early 20th century by
                          Edgar
                          > > Dacqué, a great paleontologist who at the end of his career began
                          to
                          > > write mystical and religious books; he also liked Westenhöfer's
                          > > Aquatile Hypothese). The fact that the creation of some
                          mythological
                          > > creatures are connected with real animals does not mean that this
                          is
                          > > also the case in the early mermaids-stories. I am afraid that
                          other
                          > > scientists will say the same about this point.
                          > >
                          > > Anyway, I am sure that your book is a very valeable source of
                          > > information on this topic, and of course I will order one
                          exemplar.
                          > >
                          > > William, how about the copyright of the pictures? Did you informe
                          > > yourself about this topic?
                          > >
                          > > kind regards,
                          > >
                          > > Renato Bender
                          > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com
                          > > , "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hi Christina
                          > > >
                          > > > A printed version of my Mermaid book is now available, at -
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.lulu.com/content/2647220
                          > > >
                          > > > I went onto Lulu.com and made up a book. Unfortunately because
                          it
                          > > is a
                          > > > coloured book, with many coloured illustrations in it this
                          pushes up
                          > > > the price to £23,(about $46) which is a lot of money.
                          > > >
                          > > > I can cut the price down to about a third of this by printing a
                          > > black
                          > > > and white book, so the pictures won't be as good. Anyway i hope
                          to
                          > > get
                          > > > this done sometime this week and i will let you know when i have
                          > > > finished it. I'm not doing this just for your sake, it did
                          occur to
                          > > me
                          > > > that if you would prefer a printed version of my book then
                          perhaps a
                          > > > few other people might want this as well.
                          > > >
                          > > > William Bond
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Bj" <cbjornstad@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read
                          > > your
                          > > > > book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but
                          was
                          > > afraid
                          > > > > after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am
                          > > about 3
                          > > > > fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your
                          book.
                          > > You
                          > > > > present many ideas about human history that combine folktales
                          > > with
                          > > > > written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically
                          > > adapted
                          > > > > human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are
                          > > excellent,
                          > > > > and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination,
                          > > genocide
                          > > > > of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing
                          to
                          > > read,
                          > > > > but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people
                          we
                          > > don't
                          > > > > agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad.
                          Here,
                          > > in
                          > > > > Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the
                          > > native
                          > > > > americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal
                          > > consequence.
                          > > > > Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in
                          our
                          > > history
                          > > > > books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I
                          > > started
                          > > > > asking questions and demanding answers. The native people
                          here
                          > > still
                          > > > > look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only
                          learn
                          > > from
                          > > > > our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend
                          this
                          > > stuff
                          > > > > didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have
                          > > to 'fess
                          > > > > up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that
                          is
                          > > > > easier to read and can be disseminated.
                          > > > > Tina Bjornstad
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Hi Everyone
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-
                          Amazons
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-
                          aquatic
                          > > > > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of
                          mermaid
                          > > myths
                          > > > > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the
                          Ama
                          > > and
                          > > > > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian
                          Sea
                          > > People.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > William Bond
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        • William Bond
                          Hi Deden This is why I only made a passing reference to the Minangkabu people in my book. Although it seems that many of the Sea People were matriarchal I
                          Message 12 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Deden

                            This is why I only made a passing reference to the Minangkabu people
                            in my book. Although it seems that many of the Sea People were
                            matriarchal I don't see this as a hard and fast rule.

                            William Bond


                            --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > just a note: IIRC the Minangkabu of Sumatra are inland hill peoples,
                            > surrounded by near-sea peoples of the lowland coasts.
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Leif Ekblad
                            > >
                            > > >In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in Africa
                            > >
                            > > You could try http://www.saunalahti.fi/penelope/Feminism/matrifoc.html
                            > > on the internet. But i would also recommend the books of Eva
                            > > Meyerowitz, "The Akan Of Ghan", "The Sacred State Of The Akan". I'm
                            > > afraid they are out of print now. She was a anthropologist and studied
                            > > a African tribe that was once matriarchal, and their history charts
                            > > how over the generations the tribe was changed form matriarchy to
                            > > patriarchy.
                            > >
                            > > > Why then do these, (Sea people) still live in equally poor and rural
                            > > countries in South
                            > > > Asia?
                            > >
                            > > I suppose the people of South East Asia were more tolerant of people
                            > > different to themselves than people of Africa and Europe.
                            > >
                            > > > I just think you should leave this information out (Neanderthals) as
                            > > it would weaken
                            > > > the rest of the material that is very well put together and
                            > referenced.
                            > >
                            > > I would prefer to leave it in because most theories of our evolution
                            > > leaves out the role of women completely. This is one theory that give
                            > > prominence to the female role.
                            > >
                            > > > They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
                            > > > of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
                            > > > men and put them in work. :-)
                            > >
                            > > I agree, if men don't have a role in the community they will make war,
                            > > and in the process become violent and dominate the Women through
                            > > violence.
                            > >
                            > > > But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
                            > > > at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
                            > > > with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
                            > > > bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.
                            > >
                            > > I personally am not sure that humans are naturally monogamist. They
                            > > perhaps were when marriage was strictly enforced but now the
                            > > institution of marriage is breaking down we find many people getting
                            > > divorced and marrying again, having affairs or one-night-stands. Even
                            > > when marriage was enforced, men still went to prostitutes and rich men
                            > > had mistresses. Also in Moslem countries, men (if they are rich
                            > > enough) can have many wifes.
                            > >
                            > > You can say that a Gibbon is naturally monogamist because they pair up
                            > > naturally without it being enforced by social pressure and laws. The
                            > > same is not true of humans.
                            > >
                            > > William Bond
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Leif Ekblad" <leif@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > William Bond:
                            > > > > Yes, i agree that evidence for African sea people is small, but
                            > it is
                            > > > > there. The Bijago people were seen using large sea-going
                            canoes that
                            > > > > could hold 70 people. You also have to remember that the first
                            > > > > European explorers and scholars whom we get our information
                            > from, were
                            > > > > racialists. So they had no interest in reporting any African
                            > > > > achievements. Saying that African sea voyaging was the result of
                            > > > > European influence would be an example of this.
                            > > >
                            > > > Yes, but the same thing happened in America, and we do have evidence
                            > > > for sea people in America.
                            > > >
                            > > > In fact, I have looked hard for real evidence of matriarchy in
                            > > Africa, and
                            > > > basically none of the reports can be verified. One might actually
                            > > suspect
                            > > > that some or all of these reports indeed were fabricated to
                            prove how
                            > > > backwards
                            > > > Africans were, women ruling over men and all that.
                            > > >
                            > > > > Also tribal wars in Africa continue even today. So I personally
                            > think
                            > > > > the African Sea-People were probably wiped out in these tribal
                            wars.
                            > > > > Sea People do seem to be more peaceful than people living
                            inland and
                            > > > > were less likely to be able to defend themselves from more violent
                            > > > > inland tribes.
                            > > >
                            > > > Why then do these still live in equally poor and rural countries in
                            > > South
                            > > > Asia?
                            > > >
                            > > > > We know nothing whatsoever about the social life of
                            Neanderthals so
                            > > > > what i say in my book about them is only theory and
                            speculation. But
                            > > > > this is also true of any other theory people might have about
                            > > > > Neanderthals. If you have theories about Neanderthals that are
                            > > > > different to mine then i don't see anyway for us to prove which is
                            > > > > correct.
                            > > >
                            > > > I just think you should leave this information out as it would
                            weaken
                            > > > the rest of the material that is very well put together and
                            > referenced.
                            > > >
                            > > > As for Neanderthals, my theory is that Neanderthals did
                            contribute to
                            > > > our genes, and that their traits today are classified as "mental
                            > > disorders"
                            > > > in a very similar way as sea people has been persecuted for not
                            being
                            > > > like ordinary people. I also suspect there is a link between sea
                            > people
                            > > > and Neanderthal inheritance. Especially since I've found that liking
                            > > > water is linked to probable Neanderthal inheritance. See more
                            > > > here: http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm
                            > > >
                            > > > > I personally don't have any knowledge of r-selected or
                            k-selection.
                            > > > > And this i suppose goes back to the nature V nurture debate. I
                            > > > > personally don't believe everything can be explained through
                            > genetics
                            > > > > but will admit that they do have an influence on people's
                            behaviour
                            > > > > but just how much influence is open to question.
                            > > >
                            > > > Rushton has a list of r vs K selected traits in his book. For
                            > instance,
                            > > > Africans have more twinning, are more sexually active, reproduce
                            > earlier
                            > > > and so on.
                            > > >
                            > > > > Excess fat would weigh down any hunter running after game. it
                            would
                            > > > > make far more sense for Neanderthals to grow fur instead of
                            becoming
                            > > > > more fatter. As fur would be a lot lighter and is better
                            > insulation on
                            > > > > land.
                            > > >
                            > > > I think they had both. Fat accumulation to store for the winter and
                            > > > fur to keep warm.
                            > > >
                            > > > > But evidence of men doing nothing is fairly commonplace. In Africa
                            > > > > today in some tribes, women do all the farming, building the huts,
                            > > > > doing the cooking fetching water and looking after the
                            children, the
                            > > > > men do nothing. And they have been like this for thousands of
                            years.
                            > > >
                            > > > They only make war IOW? Males doing nothing should be typical
                            > > > of patriarchy. In a matriarhy, women should be able to put use of
                            > > > men and put them in work. :-)
                            > > >
                            > > > > I think the fact that humans have far longer childhoods than any
                            > other
                            > > > > animal is the strongest argument for matriarchy in human
                            evolution.
                            > > > > Only in a matriarchy would people invest all their time and
                            > resources
                            > > > > into childcare. In a patriarchal society childcare is of little
                            > > > > importance to the alpha males of the tribe. So if we were
                            > patriarchal
                            > > > > in our evolution it would be very unlikely to evolve to a
                            state when
                            > > > > human children are so helpless for the first years of its
                            life, and
                            > > > > take so long to grow to full size.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The only other land animal with a childhood as nearly as long as
                            > > > > humans is the Elephant. Where adult males are pushed out of
                            the herd
                            > > > > and the herd is ruled by females.
                            > > >
                            > > > But this ignores the immensive evidence that humans are built for
                            > > > at least serial monogamy. Feelings such as love and parental bonding
                            > > > with children should be non-present if we where like chimps or
                            > > > bonobo. These traits must have evolved over a long time.
                            > > >
                            > > > Leif Ekblad
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • William Bond
                            Hi Renato Thank you for the information, I can t read French or German but i will research these books as much as i can. William
                            Message 13 of 14 , Jun 4, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Renato

                              Thank you for the information, I can't read French or German but i
                              will research these books as much as i can.

                              William


                              --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "bender_renato" <bender_renato@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > The parts you can improve is about the historical development of the
                              > mermaid-myth. The best works on the subject I know are published in
                              > German and French. I give you a selection of essential studies:
                              >
                              > Hofstetter, E. (1990): Sirenen im archaischen und klassischen
                              > Griechenland. Konrad Triltsch Verlag, Würzburg. (an excellent study
                              > on siren in archaich and classic Greece)
                              >
                              > Wedner, S. (1994): Tradition und Wandel im allegorischen Verständnis
                              > des Sirenenmythos. - Peter Lang, Berlin. (a study on the history of
                              > reception of Homer, with special focus on the mythos of sirens)
                              >
                              > Grübel, R.G. (1995): Sirenen und Kometen (history of the topic "water-
                              > women" in Europen literature, especially in Slavic literature)
                              >
                              > Heinisch, Klaus J. (1981): Der Wassermensch (the history of the
                              > development of the motive "water man" - an essential work)
                              >
                              > Holberg, U. (1997): Das Wasser des Lebens. - Amalia, Bern. (about
                              > goddesses of water and water cult)
                              >
                              > Leclercq-Marc, Jacqueline (1997): La sirène dans la pensée et dans
                              > l'art de l'Antiquité et du Moyen Âge. (a book in French on the
                              > history of the siren-myth in the classical antiquity and Middle-Ages)
                              >
                              >
                              > I do not know if you understand German and French. Anyway, learning
                              > these languages is not that difficult, especially if you have a clear
                              > goal.
                              >
                              > I hope I could help you with these references. I am planing myself to
                              > finish a work I am writing on this topic since years, but at the
                              > moment I do not have time for this project.
                              >
                              > best wishes
                              >
                              > Renato Bender
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Renato
                              > >
                              > > I have been updating my book all the time. It started out a number
                              > of
                              > > years ago as just an article, and has slowly grown bigger, until it
                              > is
                              > > now a book. I continue to collect information on this subject and
                              > put
                              > > it in when i feel up doing this. So I am interested in any helpful
                              > > information that i can include at a future date.
                              > >
                              > > I don't claim that all mermaid sightings and myths are of Women
                              > > divers. There are stories of mermaids that are clearly Sea-Cows,
                              > Seals
                              > > and even whales, and off course there are people who do like telling
                              > > widely exaggerated stories. I have concentrated in my book of
                              > mermaid
                              > > sighting and myths that show them to be women divers. And there is
                              > > enough mermaid myths and sightings of this kind to satisfy me that
                              > > this was the origins of the mermaid myth.
                              > >
                              > > I think i am alright with the copywrite, most of the paintings come
                              > > from the 18th and 19th century and the Ama photographs come from the
                              > > 1950s. Though it is a bit hard because on the Internet people don't
                              > > say where these photographs come from or even who took them.
                              > >
                              > > William
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "bender_renato" <bender_renato@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Hi William
                              > > >
                              > > > I was planing to send some observations to your book, but I was
                              > too
                              > > > late!
                              > > >
                              > > > First I want to congratulate you for this book, even if I do not
                              > > > agree with you in your main statements. It seems that you
                              > invested a
                              > > > lot of energy to write it.
                              > > >
                              > > > I am also interested on mermaids since many years, but with a
                              > very
                              > > > different perspective. I am researching the influence of early
                              > > > mermaids-stories on the emergence of first evolutionary ideas in
                              > the
                              > > > 18th century (to be precise: I am searching the influence of the
                              > > > plurality of the worlds-discussion on the origin of the first
                              > > > evolutionary ideas, and the belief on mermaids is part of this
                              > > > tradition).
                              > > >
                              > > > As I already said, I do not agree with your interpretation of
                              > > > mermaids as being a direct clue to our evolutionary past.
                              > Mermaids
                              > > > are one among thousand of different mithological creatures, and I
                              > do
                              > > > not think that every single of these creatures represent a
                              > reality in
                              > > > our past (this oppinion was defended in early 20th century by
                              > Edgar
                              > > > Dacqué, a great paleontologist who at the end of his career began
                              > to
                              > > > write mystical and religious books; he also liked Westenhöfer's
                              > > > Aquatile Hypothese). The fact that the creation of some
                              > mythological
                              > > > creatures are connected with real animals does not mean that this
                              > is
                              > > > also the case in the early mermaids-stories. I am afraid that
                              > other
                              > > > scientists will say the same about this point.
                              > > >
                              > > > Anyway, I am sure that your book is a very valeable source of
                              > > > information on this topic, and of course I will order one
                              > exemplar.
                              > > >
                              > > > William, how about the copyright of the pictures? Did you informe
                              > > > yourself about this topic?
                              > > >
                              > > > kind regards,
                              > > >
                              > > > Renato Bender
                              > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > , "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Hi Christina
                              > > > >
                              > > > > A printed version of my Mermaid book is now available, at -
                              > > > >
                              > > > > http://www.lulu.com/content/2647220
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I went onto Lulu.com and made up a book. Unfortunately because
                              > it
                              > > > is a
                              > > > > coloured book, with many coloured illustrations in it this
                              > pushes up
                              > > > > the price to £23,(about $46) which is a lot of money.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > I can cut the price down to about a third of this by printing a
                              > > > black
                              > > > > and white book, so the pictures won't be as good. Anyway i hope
                              > to
                              > > > get
                              > > > > this done sometime this week and i will let you know when i have
                              > > > > finished it. I'm not doing this just for your sake, it did
                              > occur to
                              > > > me
                              > > > > that if you would prefer a printed version of my book then
                              > perhaps a
                              > > > > few other people might want this as well.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > William Bond
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Christina Bj" <cbjornstad@> wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > My eyeballs are falling out of my head with my effort to read
                              > > > your
                              > > > > > book off my computer screen. I thought of printing it but
                              > was
                              > > > afraid
                              > > > > > after I saw the number of pages I needed to prepare for. I am
                              > > > about 3
                              > > > > > fourths of the way through and am very much enjoying your
                              > book.
                              > > > You
                              > > > > > present many ideas about human history that combine folktales
                              > > > with
                              > > > > > written history, and art, and the ideas of a more aquatically
                              > > > adapted
                              > > > > > human past. Your ideas and the connections you make, are
                              > > > excellent,
                              > > > > > and intriguing. The sections about the forced elimination,
                              > > > genocide
                              > > > > > of aboriginal coastal or aquatic people are deeply depressing
                              > to
                              > > > read,
                              > > > > > but ring true. We are still using violence to subdue people
                              > we
                              > > > don't
                              > > > > > agree with, or who won't do what we tell them. Very sad.
                              > Here,
                              > > > in
                              > > > > > Idaho, we have a shameful history of us "whites" killing the
                              > > > native
                              > > > > > americans and also the Chinese with apparently no legal
                              > > > consequence.
                              > > > > > Just for sport, I guess. We don't include these things in
                              > our
                              > > > history
                              > > > > > books. I didn't learn about them until I was an adult and I
                              > > > started
                              > > > > > asking questions and demanding answers. The native people
                              > here
                              > > > still
                              > > > > > look very depressed in pictures and in person. We can only
                              > learn
                              > > > from
                              > > > > > our past mistakes. So we have to uncover them not pretend
                              > this
                              > > > stuff
                              > > > > > didn't happen. We can't try to rewrite our history. We have
                              > > > to 'fess
                              > > > > > up. Do better. I hope your book can be put into a form that
                              > is
                              > > > > > easier to read and can be disseminated.
                              > > > > > Tina Bjornstad
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > "William Bond" <wabond@> wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Hi Everyone
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > I have updated my Mermaid book and it is now available at -
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/3176839/Mermaids-Witches-and-
                              > Amazons
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > My book proposes that people continued to live a semi-
                              > aquatic
                              > > > > > > lifestyle in historic times and this was the origin of
                              > mermaid
                              > > > myths
                              > > > > > > and legends. And that they still exist even today with the
                              > Ama
                              > > > and
                              > > > > > > Haenyo divers of Japan and Korea and the South East Asian
                              > Sea
                              > > > People.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > William Bond
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
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