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Re: Mother Fish 380ma

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  • DDeden
    ... The chasing whales have one, the baleen whales have two afaik. ... I ve seen little mudskippers cling to and climb mangrove branches a meter above the
    Message 1 of 10 , May 31, 2008
      --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@...> wrote:
      >
      > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Thanks m3d, excellent! Air intake tubes -> middle ears ?
      >
      >
      > Could be the origins of ears, in land animals, DD.
      >
      >
      >
      > > I'm too confused about this to make sense of it. The air
      > > entered through spiracles into a sort of "lung" in the
      > > skull? For respiration or buoyancy or ? Maybe supplemental
      > > breathing in water too muddy or briny or deoxygenated to
      > > use gills?
      >
      >
      >
      > It is a bit of a puzzle. Why large spiracles (blowholes)
      > unless it was actually breathing air, why more than
      > one blowhole if it was used for breathing ... whales
      > manage with one.

      The chasing whales have one, the baleen whales have two afaik.

      > Possibly if it swam in shallow coastal seas, swamps, it
      > spent some time out of the water, adapting to live briefly
      > out of the water as a way of evading predation ... using
      > its fins/forelimbs to crawl in the mud?

      I've seen little mudskippers cling to and climb mangrove branches a
      meter above the tideline, their front limbs gripping, fingers would
      give better grip on round stems.

      >
      > More on the Gogo (Gogonasus fish)
      > Includes more images of the fish, its skull ...
      > http://www.geocities.com/ozraptor4/gogonasus.html
      >
      > Fish World (a map of the Earth back in the Devonian)
      > http://www.scotese.com/newpage3.htm
      >

      Thanks, better view. Freshwater predators eating fish and insects?

      >
      > > ===
      > >
      > > Gogonasus (meaning "snout from Gogo") was a lobe-finned fish that
      > > lived 380 million years ago (the Late Devonian Period), on what was
      > > once a great barrier reef surrounding the north-west of Australia.
      > >
      > > The new specimen shows us that Gogonasus had large holes on top of the
      > > head called spiracles, which were used for taking in air. These
      > > structures would eventually evolve into the Eustachian tube or middle
      > > ear of higher land vertebrates.
      > >
      > > The front fin of Gogonasus shows remarkable similarity with that of
      > > all land vertebrates (tetrapods) in having a well-developed humerus,
      > > ulna and radius. This feature reveals that such fishes had much more
      > > in common with land animals than previously thought.
      > > ===
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > I've been thinking about human long bones. If our arm and leg bones
      > > were shortened as much as our toe bones (compared to chimps,
      > > orangs), it would resemble a sea lion (phocomelia?). Sounds
      > > sci fi, that human ancestors could have once been that form, but
      > > once one goes back beyond 10ma, there's a lot of guesswork
      > > involved, and I refuse to discard the possibility that sometime
      > > in the past, our pre-human ancestors may have had very short
      > > limbs, rather than modern simian-like morphology. Unfortunately,
      > > imagination plays a large role
      > > in this.
      > > DD
      >
      >
      >
      > You would possibly have to go a lot further back
      > than 10 ma, back before the adoption of an upright
      > spine twenty odd million years ago, back before
      > primates existed, back before the origins of the
      > primates an possibly even the ancestor of
      > the primates ...
      >
      > Long legs are part of the package
      > of being human ...
      >
      >
      > ---m3d
      >

      Conceptually, take a sea lion and genetically switch the genes to
      double the fore and rear limb length, what would it look like, how
      would it behave? Would it swim as it does now, or change? The arms
      spread out to sides, like an ape, rather than ventrally like a
      squirrel. Resulting long arms/flippers and somewhat short legs would
      parallel a chimp, compared to Homo. Could it walk bipedal, or
      knucklewalk like a gorilla? Since it's food is in the water, it would
      gain no benefit, unless it's diet changed.

      Turkana boy is very similar to Hs below the neck. Lucy less so.

      Obviously our ancestors have been associated with trees, eggs, fruits,
      greens and some kind of aquatic foods. I'm just seeing if perhaps apes
      detoured, while ours stayed nearshore. Mental ramblings, I guess.



      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > >
      http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/materpiscis_attenboroughi.php
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Mother Fish
      > > > http://museumvictoria.com.au/About/MV-News/2008/Mother-fish/
      > > >
      > > > DD, check out the Gogonasus link on
      > > > this page ...
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > ---m3d
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • m3dodds
      ... Mudskippers ... evading predators by clinging to mangrove branches? The Gogo fossil is said to have the beginnings of a wrist joint, in its front fins. ...
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 1, 2008
        --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@...> wrote:
        >
        > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
        > >
        > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Thanks m3d, excellent! Air intake tubes -> middle ears ?
        > >
        > >
        > > Could be the origins of ears, in land animals, DD.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > > I'm too confused about this to make sense of it. The air
        > > > entered through spiracles into a sort of "lung" in the
        > > > skull? For respiration or buoyancy or ? Maybe supplemental
        > > > breathing in water too muddy or briny or deoxygenated to
        > > > use gills?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > It is a bit of a puzzle. Why large spiracles (blowholes)
        > > unless it was actually breathing air, why more than
        > > one blowhole if it was used for breathing ... whales
        > > manage with one.
        >
        > The chasing whales have one, the baleen whales have
        > two afaik.



        > > Possibly if it swam in shallow coastal seas, swamps, it
        > > spent some time out of the water, adapting to live briefly
        > > out of the water as a way of evading predation ... using
        > > its fins/forelimbs to crawl in the mud?
        >
        > I've seen little mudskippers cling to and climb mangrove
        > branches a meter above the tideline, their front limbs
        > gripping, fingers would give better grip on round stems.



        Mudskippers ... evading predators by clinging to
        mangrove branches?

        The Gogo fossil is said to have the beginnings
        of a wrist joint, in its front fins.




        > > More on the Gogo (Gogonasus fish)
        > > Includes more images of the fish, its skull ...
        > > http://www.geocities.com/ozraptor4/gogonasus.html
        > >
        > > Fish World (a map of the Earth back in the Devonian)
        > > http://www.scotese.com/newpage3.htm
        > >
        >
        > Thanks, better view. Freshwater predators eating fish
        > and insects?


        Researchers say the Gogo was an ambush predator, its
        favourite hunting ground being tropical reefs.





        ===

        > > >
        > > > Gogonasus (meaning "snout from Gogo") was a lobe-finned fish that
        > > > lived 380 million years ago (the Late Devonian Period), on what was
        > > > once a great barrier reef surrounding the north-west of Australia.
        > > >
        > > > The new specimen shows us that Gogonasus had large holes on top
        of the
        > > > head called spiracles, which were used for taking in air. These
        > > > structures would eventually evolve into the Eustachian tube or
        middle
        > > > ear of higher land vertebrates.
        > > >
        > > > The front fin of Gogonasus shows remarkable similarity with that of
        > > > all land vertebrates (tetrapods) in having a well-developed humerus,
        > > > ulna and radius. This feature reveals that such fishes had much more
        > > > in common with land animals than previously thought.

        ===




        > > > I've been thinking about human long bones. If our
        > > > arm and leg bones were shortened as much as our
        > > > toe bones (compared to chimps,
        > > > orangs), it would resemble a sea lion (phocomelia?). Sounds
        > > > sci fi, that human ancestors could have once been that form, but
        > > > once one goes back beyond 10ma, there's a lot of guesswork
        > > > involved, and I refuse to discard the possibility that sometime
        > > > in the past, our pre-human ancestors may have had very short
        > > > limbs, rather than modern simian-like morphology.
        > > > Unfortunately, imagination plays a large role
        > > > in this.
        > > > DD
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > You would possibly have to go a lot further back
        > > than 10 ma, back before the adoption of an upright
        > > spine twenty odd million years ago, back before
        > > primates existed, back before the origins of the
        > > primates an possibly even the ancestor of
        > > the primates ...
        > >
        > > Long legs are part of the package
        > > of being human ...
        > >
        > >
        > > ---m3d
        > >
        >
        > Conceptually, take a sea lion and genetically switch the genes to
        > double the fore and rear limb length, what would it look like, how
        > would it behave? Would it swim as it does now, or change? The arms
        > spread out to sides, like an ape, rather than ventrally like a
        > squirrel. Resulting long arms/flippers and somewhat short legs would
        > parallel a chimp, compared to Homo. Could it walk bipedal, or
        > knucklewalk like a gorilla? Since it's food is in the water, it
        > would gain no benefit, unless it's diet changed.


        Its common ancestor some 20 odd million years ago, was
        probably a quadruped on shore, as it was using all
        four limbs to swim in the water.

        Enaliarctos (possible sea lion ancestor)
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enaliarctos





        > Turkana boy is very similar to Hs below the neck.
        > Lucy less so.


        Probably because 'Lucy' was not a direct ancestor
        of Man ... Israeli researchers last year claimed
        that they had disproved 'Lucy' was a direct
        ancestor ... More likely 'she' was an A'pith ...

        Israeli researchers: 'Lucy' is not direct
        ancestor of humans
        http://tinyurl.com/2uvzdv

        -----------------------------


        > Obviously our ancestors have been associated with
        > trees, eggs, fruits, greens and some kind of aquatic
        > foods. I'm just seeing if perhaps apes detoured, while
        > ours stayed nearshore. Mental ramblings, I guess.



        Maybe not, not all primate fossils have been
        found, and 'new' ones, are found each year. So
        the possibility remains that one may have made the
        detour, but its extremely unlikely it would have
        been a direct ancestor ... aside from which our
        shore ancestors, probably were on the shore
        not all that long ago, sometime between the LCA
        an the emergence of H.erectus ... probably a lot
        closer in time to H.erectus than to the LCA ...



        ---m3d








        > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > >
        > http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/materpiscis_attenboroughi.php
        > > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > Mother Fish
        > > > > http://museumvictoria.com.au/About/MV-News/2008/Mother-fish/
        > > > >
        > > > > DD, check out the Gogonasus link on
        > > > > this page ...
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > ---m3d
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • DDeden
        ... Not impossible that it may have also had finger-like projections also, as claws or non-bone spines or curved scales retained in later tetrapods as
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 1, 2008
          --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
          > >
          > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks m3d, excellent! Air intake tubes -> middle ears ?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Could be the origins of ears, in land animals, DD.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > > I'm too confused about this to make sense of it. The air
          > > > > entered through spiracles into a sort of "lung" in the
          > > > > skull? For respiration or buoyancy or ? Maybe supplemental
          > > > > breathing in water too muddy or briny or deoxygenated to
          > > > > use gills?
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > It is a bit of a puzzle. Why large spiracles (blowholes)
          > > > unless it was actually breathing air, why more than
          > > > one blowhole if it was used for breathing ... whales
          > > > manage with one.
          > >
          > > The chasing whales have one, the baleen whales have
          > > two afaik.
          >
          >
          >
          > > > Possibly if it swam in shallow coastal seas, swamps, it
          > > > spent some time out of the water, adapting to live briefly
          > > > out of the water as a way of evading predation ... using
          > > > its fins/forelimbs to crawl in the mud?
          > >
          > > I've seen little mudskippers cling to and climb mangrove
          > > branches a meter above the tideline, their front limbs
          > > gripping, fingers would give better grip on round stems.
          >
          >
          >
          > Mudskippers ... evading predators by clinging to
          > mangrove branches?
          >
          > The Gogo fossil is said to have the beginnings
          > of a wrist joint, in its front fins.

          Not impossible that it may have also had finger-like projections also,
          as claws or non-bone spines or curved scales retained in later
          tetrapods as fingernails or claws. One might also consider human
          fingernails as primitive proteinaceous scales, and cat claws as highly
          derived. I don't know of any fish with curved scales, sharks have
          dentate scales like teeth.

          >
          > > > More on the Gogo (Gogonasus fish)
          > > > Includes more images of the fish, its skull ...
          > > > http://www.geocities.com/ozraptor4/gogonasus.html
          > > >
          > > > Fish World (a map of the Earth back in the Devonian)
          > > > http://www.scotese.com/newpage3.htm
          > > >
          > >
          > > Thanks, better view. Freshwater predators eating fish
          > > and insects?
          >
          >
          > Researchers say the Gogo was an ambush predator, its
          > favourite hunting ground being tropical reefs.
          >

          > ===
          >
          > > > >
          > > > > Gogonasus (meaning "snout from Gogo") was a lobe-finned fish that
          > > > > lived 380 million years ago (the Late Devonian Period), on
          what was
          > > > > once a great barrier reef surrounding the north-west of Australia.
          > > > >
          > > > > The new specimen shows us that Gogonasus had large holes on top
          > of the
          > > > > head called spiracles, which were used for taking in air. These
          > > > > structures would eventually evolve into the Eustachian tube or
          > middle
          > > > > ear of higher land vertebrates.
          > > > >
          > > > > The front fin of Gogonasus shows remarkable similarity with
          that of
          > > > > all land vertebrates (tetrapods) in having a well-developed
          humerus,
          > > > > ulna and radius. This feature reveals that such fishes had
          much more
          > > > > in common with land animals than previously thought.
          >
          > ===
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > > > I've been thinking about human long bones. If our
          > > > > arm and leg bones were shortened as much as our
          > > > > toe bones (compared to chimps,
          > > > > orangs), it would resemble a sea lion (phocomelia?). Sounds
          > > > > sci fi, that human ancestors could have once been that form, but
          > > > > once one goes back beyond 10ma, there's a lot of guesswork
          > > > > involved, and I refuse to discard the possibility that sometime
          > > > > in the past, our pre-human ancestors may have had very short
          > > > > limbs, rather than modern simian-like morphology.
          > > > > Unfortunately, imagination plays a large role
          > > > > in this.
          > > > > DD
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > You would possibly have to go a lot further back
          > > > than 10 ma, back before the adoption of an upright
          > > > spine twenty odd million years ago, back before
          > > > primates existed, back before the origins of the
          > > > primates an possibly even the ancestor of
          > > > the primates ...
          > > >
          > > > Long legs are part of the package
          > > > of being human ...
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ---m3d
          > > >
          > >
          > > Conceptually, take a sea lion and genetically switch the genes to
          > > double the fore and rear limb length, what would it look like, how
          > > would it behave? Would it swim as it does now, or change? The arms
          > > spread out to sides, like an ape, rather than ventrally like a
          > > squirrel. Resulting long arms/flippers and somewhat short legs would
          > > parallel a chimp, compared to Homo. Could it walk bipedal, or
          > > knucklewalk like a gorilla? Since it's food is in the water, it
          > > would gain no benefit, unless it's diet changed.
          >
          >
          > Its common ancestor some 20 odd million years ago, was
          > probably a quadruped on shore, as it was using all
          > four limbs to swim in the water.
          >
          > Enaliarctos (possible sea lion ancestor)
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enaliarctos
          >

          Interesting, stoat-like but flippered. Poor manual dexterity, as
          compared to the sea otter. Using the mouth to transport food back to
          shore. Tail almost lost. Perhaps the sea otter retains a full tail for
          faster flipping at the water surface, one flick puts it onto it's back.


          > > Turkana boy is very similar to Hs below the neck.
          > > Lucy less so.
          >
          >
          > Probably because 'Lucy' was not a direct ancestor
          > of Man ... Israeli researchers last year claimed
          > that they had disproved 'Lucy' was a direct
          > ancestor ... More likely 'she' was an A'pith ...
          >
          > Israeli researchers: 'Lucy' is not direct
          > ancestor of humans
          > http://tinyurl.com/2uvzdv
          >
          > -----------------------------

          Quite likely.

          >
          >
          > > Obviously our ancestors have been associated with
          > > trees, eggs, fruits, greens and some kind of aquatic
          > > foods. I'm just seeing if perhaps apes detoured, while
          > > ours stayed nearshore. Mental ramblings, I guess.
          >
          >
          >
          > Maybe not, not all primate fossils have been
          > found, and 'new' ones, are found each year. So
          > the possibility remains that one may have made the
          > detour, but its extremely unlikely it would have
          > been a direct ancestor ... aside from which our
          > shore ancestors, probably were on the shore
          > not all that long ago, sometime between the LCA
          > an the emergence of H.erectus ... probably a lot
          > closer in time to H.erectus than to the LCA ...
          >
          >
          > ---m3d

          Yes. Just trying to keep the mind open to other possibilities.





          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
          > > > > > >
          > > > > > >
          > > > >
          > >
          http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/materpiscis_attenboroughi.php
          > > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > Mother Fish
          > > > > > http://museumvictoria.com.au/About/MV-News/2008/Mother-fish/
          > > > > >
          > > > > > DD, check out the Gogonasus link on
          > > > > > this page ...
          > > > > >
          > > > > >
          > > > > > ---m3d
          > > > > >
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • Marc Verhaegen
          ... Very unlikely, DD: - apes have rel.larger long bones (esp.arms) than monkeys, - Lucy probably (difficult estimations) had +-shorter arms than Hs & legs
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 1, 2008
            > I've been thinking about human long bones. If our arm and leg bones
            > were shortened as much as our toe bones (compared to chimps, orangs),
            > it would resemble a sea lion (phocomelia?). Sounds sci fi, that human
            > ancestors could have once been that form, but once one goes back
            > beyond 10ma, there's a lot of guesswork involved, and I refuse to
            > discard the possibility that sometime in the past, our pre-human
            > ancestors may have had very short limbs, rather than modern
            > simian-like morphology. Unfortunately, imagination plays a large role
            > in this. DD

            Very unlikely, DD:
            - apes have rel.larger long bones (esp.arms) than monkeys,
            - Lucy probably (difficult estimations) had +-shorter arms than Hs & legs
            than apes, but this was still far from "very short" (still rel.larger than
            in monkeys),
            - our semi-arboreal (aquarboreal) life possibly lasted until less than 2 Ma
            (apelike features in Dmanisi limbs etc.),
            - AFAWK He & Hn had not much shorter limb bones than Hs.

            --Marc
          • DDeden
            ... legs ... rel.larger than ... than 2 Ma ... Yes, agreed. I think the genome comparisons will help understand various relationships too, as it becomes better
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 1, 2008
              --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > > I've been thinking about human long bones. If our arm and leg bones
              > > were shortened as much as our toe bones (compared to chimps, orangs),
              > > it would resemble a sea lion (phocomelia?). Sounds sci fi, that human
              > > ancestors could have once been that form, but once one goes back
              > > beyond 10ma, there's a lot of guesswork involved, and I refuse to
              > > discard the possibility that sometime in the past, our pre-human
              > > ancestors may have had very short limbs, rather than modern
              > > simian-like morphology. Unfortunately, imagination plays a large role
              > > in this. DD
              >
              > Very unlikely, DD:
              > - apes have rel.larger long bones (esp.arms) than monkeys,
              > - Lucy probably (difficult estimations) had +-shorter arms than Hs &
              legs
              > than apes, but this was still far from "very short" (still
              rel.larger than
              > in monkeys),
              > - our semi-arboreal (aquarboreal) life possibly lasted until less
              than 2 Ma
              > (apelike features in Dmanisi limbs etc.),
              > - AFAWK He & Hn had not much shorter limb bones than Hs.
              >
              > --Marc


              Yes, agreed. I think the genome comparisons will help understand
              various relationships too, as it becomes better understood and
              examined. I guess I was thinking of a long ago mangrove dweller that
              had some features of the Colugo-Tupaia-Uakari but more primitive,
              swiumming daily. As I said, sci fi more or less.
              DD
            • m3dodds
              ... DD, Meant to include this link on Gogo, last time. http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/10/gogonasus_andrewsae.php This Pharynhula blog on Gogo, has a
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 2, 2008
                --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
                > >
                > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Thanks m3d, excellent! Air intake tubes -> middle ears ?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Could be the origins of ears, in land animals, DD.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > > I'm too confused about this to make sense of it. The air
                > > > > > entered through spiracles into a sort of "lung" in the
                > > > > > skull? For respiration or buoyancy or ? Maybe supplemental
                > > > > > breathing in water too muddy or briny or deoxygenated to
                > > > > > use gills?
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > It is a bit of a puzzle. Why large spiracles (blowholes)
                > > > > unless it was actually breathing air, why more than
                > > > > one blowhole if it was used for breathing ... whales
                > > > > manage with one.
                > > >
                > > > The chasing whales have one, the baleen whales have
                > > > two afaik.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > > > Possibly if it swam in shallow coastal seas, swamps, it
                > > > > spent some time out of the water, adapting to live briefly
                > > > > out of the water as a way of evading predation ... using
                > > > > its fins/forelimbs to crawl in the mud?
                > > >
                > > > I've seen little mudskippers cling to and climb mangrove
                > > > branches a meter above the tideline, their front limbs
                > > > gripping, fingers would give better grip on round stems.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Mudskippers ... evading predators by clinging to
                > > mangrove branches?
                > >
                > > The Gogo fossil is said to have the beginnings
                > > of a wrist joint, in its front fins.
                >
                > Not impossible that it may have also had finger-like
                > projections also, as claws or non-bone spines or curved
                > scales retained in later tetrapods as fingernails or
                > claws. One might also consider human fingernails as
                > primitive proteinaceous scales, and cat claws as highly
                > derived. I don't know of any fish with curved scales,
                > sharks have dentate scales like teeth.
                >
                >
                > > > > More on the Gogo (Gogonasus fish)
                > > > > Includes more images of the fish, its skull ...
                > > > > http://www.geocities.com/ozraptor4/gogonasus.html
                > > > >
                > > > > Fish World (a map of the Earth back in the Devonian)
                > > > > http://www.scotese.com/newpage3.htm
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Thanks, better view. Freshwater predators eating fish
                > > > and insects?
                > >
                > >
                > > Researchers say the Gogo was an ambush predator, its
                > > favourite hunting ground being tropical reefs.




                DD, Meant to include this link on Gogo, last time.

                http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/10/gogonasus_andrewsae.php

                This Pharynhula blog on Gogo, has a good illustration
                of the bones of its front fins.




                ========


                > > > > > Gogonasus (meaning "snout from Gogo") was a
                > > > > > lobe-finned fish thatlived 380 million years
                > > > > > ago (the Late Devonian Period), on what was
                > > > > > once a great barrier reef surrounding the
                > > > > > north-west of Australia.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The new specimen shows us that Gogonasus had
                > > > > > large holes on top of the head called spiracles,
                > > > > > which were used for taking in air. These
                > > > > > structures would eventually evolve into the
                > > > > > Eustachian tube or middle ear of higher land
                > > > > > vertebrates.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The front fin of Gogonasus shows remarkable
                > > > > > similarity with that of all land vertebrates
                > > > > > (tetrapods) in having a well-developed humerus,
                > > > > > ulna and radius. This feature reveals that
                > > > > > such fishes had much more in common with land
                > > > > > animals than previously thought.


                ========

                > > > > > I've been thinking about human long bones. If our
                > > > > > arm and leg bones were shortened as much as our
                > > > > > toe bones (compared to chimps,
                > > > > > orangs), it would resemble a sea lion (phocomelia?).
                > > > > > Sounds sci fi, that human ancestors could have
                > > > > > once been that form, but once one goes back beyond
                > > > > > 10ma, there's a lot of guesswork involved, and I
                > > > > > refuse to discard the possibility that sometime
                > > > > > in the past, our pre-human ancestors may have
                > > > > > had very short limbs, rather than modern
                > > > > > simian-like morphology.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Unfortunately, imagination plays a large role
                > > > > > in this.
                > > > > > DD
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > You would possibly have to go a lot further back
                > > > > than 10 ma, back before the adoption of an upright
                > > > > spine twenty odd million years ago, back before
                > > > > primates existed, back before the origins of the
                > > > > primates an possibly even the ancestor of
                > > > > the primates ...
                > > > >
                > > > > Long legs are part of the package
                > > > > of being human ...
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > ---m3d
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > > Conceptually, take a sea lion and genetically
                > > > switch the genes to double the fore and rear limb
                > > > length, what would it look like, how
                > > > would it behave? Would it swim as it does now, or
                > > > change? The arms spread out to sides, like an ape,
                > > > rather than ventrally like a squirrel. Resulting
                > > > long arms/flippers and somewhat short legs would
                > > > parallel a chimp, compared to Homo. Could it walk
                > > > bipedal, or knucklewalk like a gorilla? Since it's
                > > > food is in the water, it would gain no benefit,
                > > > unless it's diet changed.
                > >
                > >
                > > Its common ancestor some 20 odd million years ago, was
                > > probably a quadruped on shore, as it was using all
                > > four limbs to swim in the water.
                > >
                > > Enaliarctos (possible sea lion ancestor)
                > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enaliarctos
                > >
                >
                > Interesting, stoat-like but flippered. Poor manual
                > dexterity, as compared to the sea otter. Using the
                > mouth to transport food back to shore. Tail almost
                > lost. Perhaps the sea otter retains a full tail for
                > faster flipping at the water surface, one flick
                > puts it onto it's back.



                Does look a bit ungainly, in comparison to an
                otter, then again it was much bigger animal
                than a otter. Some claim it could be the
                link between the bears and the pinnipeds ( Seals
                are said to have had bear, or bear-like
                ancestors ) ...


                ---m3d








                > > > Turkana boy is very similar to Hs below the neck.
                > > > Lucy less so.
                > >
                > >
                > > Probably because 'Lucy' was not a direct ancestor
                > > of Man ... Israeli researchers last year claimed
                > > that they had disproved 'Lucy' was a direct
                > > ancestor ... More likely 'she' was an A'pith ...
                > >
                > > Israeli researchers: 'Lucy' is not direct
                > > ancestor of humans
                > > http://tinyurl.com/2uvzdv
                > >
                > > -----------------------------
                >
                > Quite likely.
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > > Obviously our ancestors have been associated with
                > > > trees, eggs, fruits, greens and some kind of aquatic
                > > > foods. I'm just seeing if perhaps apes detoured, while
                > > > ours stayed nearshore. Mental ramblings, I guess.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Maybe not, not all primate fossils have been
                > > found, and 'new' ones, are found each year. So
                > > the possibility remains that one may have made the
                > > detour, but its extremely unlikely it would have
                > > been a direct ancestor ... aside from which our
                > > shore ancestors, probably were on the shore
                > > not all that long ago, sometime between the LCA
                > > an the emergence of H.erectus ... probably a lot
                > > closer in time to H.erectus than to the LCA ...
                > >
                > >
                > > ---m3d
                >
                > Yes. Just trying to keep the mind open to other
                > possibilities.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "m3dodds" <dons3148@> wrote:
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "DDeden" <alas_my_loves@> wrote:
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > >
                > http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/materpiscis_attenboroughi.php
                > > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > Mother Fish
                > > > > > > http://museumvictoria.com.au/About/MV-News/2008/Mother-fish/
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > DD, check out the Gogonasus link on
                > > > > > > this page ...
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > > ---m3d
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
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