Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Australopithecus afarensis vs. chimps

Expand Messages
  • Marc Verhaegen
    Andrew Nowicki wrote in message news:410C47C3.D801F782@nospam.com... ... on two legs? ... afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It s obvious
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 1, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      "Andrew Nowicki" <andrew@...> wrote in message
      news:410C47C3.D801F782@......

      >>> I repeat the perennial question: why did Australopithecus afarensis walk
      on two legs?

      >> I repeat the essential question: why do you want to believe that
      afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It's obvious that afarensis was no runner:
      in that case it would not have had broader pelvises than both apes & humans.
      Look at the facts. What do we have? 1) Resemblances in hand anatomy to
      KWing apes. 2) Bipedal footprints (chimps also walk on 2 legs over muddy
      ground). 3) Curved phalanges, to climb trees arms overhead. IOW,
      probably a combination of short-legged bipedality, suspensory behaviour &
      KWing.

      > We are in agreement. I did not say that it walked only on two legs.

      I don't think we agree: IMO, you see afarensis much to humanlike. Chimps
      also walk sometimes on 2 legs. From hat we know now: afarensis had bipedal +
      KWing + suspensory adaptations. If we see them in swamp forests (where they
      have been found), it beautifully fits.

      >> Where may you expect this combination? on the savanna?? or in swamp
      forests, where their fossils have been found?

      > Try to be more objective. Most authors do not mention swamps.

      Most are prejudiced, of course, by years & years of savanna indoctrination.
      Try to be objective: Johanson cs.1982 on Afar Locality: "Generally, the
      sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial deposits
      related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire basin."
      Radosevich cs.1992 on AL-333: "The bones were found in swale-like
      features . it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at or very
      near this site . this group of hominids was buried in streamside gallery
      woodland." Johanson & Taieb 1976 say Lucy lay in a small, slow moving
      stream: "Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains of
      delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws being
      found." Please explain to me the difference between swamp & swale.

      > I do not rule out swamps as one of many of its habitats, but I wonder how
      it would cope with predators there. The big cats would sink in the swamp,
      but I am not sure how dangerous crocs would be. Perhaps the apiths would
      spread their weight over the surface of their forearms and calves.

      Well, how do bonobos & lowland gorillas cope with predators in swamps?
      Baboons & proboscis monkeys know exactly the hour & place to enter the water
      to avoid crocodiles. This croc & shark & lion blabla is largely irrelevant,
      IMO, or at least secondary to the facts. Some people don't avoid being hit
      by cars on the road. Does that mean that we live in car-free environments??
      If we have to talk about predators, we have to talk IMO about leopards
      (apiths) & esp.about parasites.

      >>> I doubt that the apiths fed on marsh vegetation -- they would be
      vulnerable to crocodiles.

      >> Ah? Then why are lowland gorillas in their swamps not eaten by crocs??

      > Gorillas are bigger and stronger.

      Crocs are afraid of gorillas?? Bonobos & even common chimps also eat some
      aquatic herbs.

      > By the way, marshes have two parts: - The wet part is covered with muddy
      water. Below the water is deep mud. This part of the marsh is good habitat
      for the crocodiles but bad habitat for the apiths. - The spongy part is
      covered with mosses which absorb water as well as household sponges. This
      habitat may have been occupied by the apiths if they could cope with the
      crocodiles. Mosses are fragile, so the apiths could migrate through the
      mosses, but could not stay in one place.

      Thanks for the info. Well, I don't know exactly how I have to imagine the
      apith milieus - apiths were unique creatures, different from both humans &
      apes. I only know there are microwear indications they ate a lot of aquatic
      plants (boisei & esp.habilis & afarensis), isotopic indications they fed
      partly on sedges, reeds cs.(S.Afr.apiths), and that their locomotion
      probably included short-legged bipedality (at least at Laetoli), suspensory
      behaviour (gracile apiths) & KWing (E.Afr.apiths). The lowland gorilla
      habitat is an obvious possibility: some populations spend a few hours daily
      in swamps, where they play, sit, feed on aquatic herbs. P-F.Puech found
      microwear evidence that Olduvai habilis might have fed on parts of papyrus,
      where they were found, BTW, eg, Conroy 1990: "...swamp vegetation is
      indicated by abundant vertical roots channels and casts possibly made by
      some kind of reed. Fossil rhizomes of papyrus also suggest the presence of
      marshland and/or shallow water." Puech 1992: "Cyperaceae fruits were common
      in H.habilis habitat (Bonnefille,1984). Ancient Egyptians ate Cyperus
      papyrus root which was also present at Olduvai in swamp-margins and river
      banks." Mountain gorillas feed on herbs & bamboo at higher altitudes. Today,
      we find papyrus swamps & the most densely vegetated forests on earth of
      lichens, lobelias, senecios at 4000 m in the Ruwenzori Mountains, but at c
      1.8 Ma (colder?) this might have been at lower altitudes.

      > > Stop mixing apiths & Homo. - Apiths: wetlands: climb, wade, KW, ate
      calorie-poor foods, heavy dentition, short legs, no external nose, apelike
      brain. - Homo: sea/lakeside: wade, dive, no climbing, ate calorie-rich
      foods, masticatory reduction, long legs, external nose, very large brain.

      > I don't. Our opinions are similar. You seem to believe that A.afarensis
      was restricted to marshes and Homo was restricted to sea/lakeside. I agree
      with the majority opinion that they were not restricted to one habitat, but
      I do believe that A.afarensis preferred gallery forests (and maybe marshes),
      while the early Homo preferred sea/lakeside.

      OK, but I think you underestimate how different, eg, afarensis & erectus
      were. IMO they were almost as different as, say, gorillas & humans.

      > If OH 62 is representative of H.habilis, its curved proximal phalanges and
      well developed muscle markings on the phalanges of OH 7 indicate features
      related to arboreal activities (Susman & Creel, 1979; Susman & Stern, 1982).

      Yes.

      >> It's not impossible that boisei slept on the ground, but the gracile
      apiths no doubt slept in trees.

      > How could an Australopithecus afarensis baby sleep in a tree? It did not
      have grasping feet. Perhaps its mother made a sophisticated nest for the
      baby. I mean a big, reusable nest similar to nests made by big birds. By the
      way, the chimp's nests are extremely primitive -- just a few branches broken
      and bent under the chimp's body. Maybe this was the beginning of the
      nest making. As the nests got bigger, older apiths slept in them. When a big
      nest fell off the tree it was remodeled into a ground nest.

      Chimps sleep in trees, sometimes 30 m high. At the time of the genocides in
      C-Africa, Hutus slept in trees, it is told. I don't think they left their
      babies on the ground.

      > Australopithecus afarensis did not have grasping feet so they were not
      good tree climbers. When they fled a predator it was easier for them to jump
      into a ground nest than to climb a tree.

      Safe from leopards in ground nests??


      >> a) A.africanus-like fossils are found in S.Africa c 3.5 Ma (Stw-573).

      > Stw-573 is not africanus. Stw-573 (Little Foot) has been discovered in
      the Silberberg Grotto at Sterkfontein, in deposits initially thought to be
      3.33 million years old, but now considered to be closer to 4.17 million
      years (Clarke, 1998; Partridge et al, 2003).

      Yes. I said africanus-like: of all apiths it probably looks most like
      africanus.

      --Marc
    • " A. Lemak A.S. "
      Marc: you mention this below - Homo: No Climbing My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not eliminated during littoral stage, coconut, fig,
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 2 1:03 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Marc: you mention this below - Homo: No Climbing
        My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not eliminated
        during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still used but
        to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD











        --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Verhaegen" <fa204466@s...> wrote:
        > "Andrew Nowicki" <andrew@n...> wrote in message
        > news:410C47C3.D801F782@n...
        >
        > >>> I repeat the perennial question: why did Australopithecus
        afarensis walk
        > on two legs?
        >
        > >> I repeat the essential question: why do you want to believe that
        > afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It's obvious that afarensis was
        no runner:
        > in that case it would not have had broader pelvises than both apes
        & humans.
        > Look at the facts. What do we have? 1) Resemblances in hand
        anatomy to
        > KWing apes. 2) Bipedal footprints (chimps also walk on 2 legs
        over muddy
        > ground). 3) Curved phalanges, to climb trees arms overhead.
        IOW,
        > probably a combination of short-legged bipedality, suspensory
        behaviour &
        > KWing.
        >
        > > We are in agreement. I did not say that it walked only on two
        legs.
        >
        > I don't think we agree: IMO, you see afarensis much to humanlike.
        Chimps
        > also walk sometimes on 2 legs. From hat we know now: afarensis had
        bipedal +
        > KWing + suspensory adaptations. If we see them in swamp forests
        (where they
        > have been found), it beautifully fits.
        >
        > >> Where may you expect this combination? on the savanna?? or in
        swamp
        > forests, where their fossils have been found?
        >
        > > Try to be more objective. Most authors do not mention swamps.
        >
        > Most are prejudiced, of course, by years & years of savanna
        indoctrination.
        > Try to be objective: Johanson cs.1982 on Afar
        Locality: "Generally, the
        > sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial
        deposits
        > related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire
        basin."
        > Radosevich cs.1992 on AL-333: "The bones were found in swale-like
        > features . it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at
        or very
        > near this site . this group of hominids was buried in streamside
        gallery
        > woodland." Johanson & Taieb 1976 say Lucy lay in a small, slow
        moving
        > stream: "Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains
        of
        > delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws
        being
        > found." Please explain to me the difference between swamp & swale.
        >
        > > I do not rule out swamps as one of many of its habitats, but I
        wonder how
        > it would cope with predators there. The big cats would sink in the
        swamp,
        > but I am not sure how dangerous crocs would be. Perhaps the apiths
        would
        > spread their weight over the surface of their forearms and calves.
        >
        > Well, how do bonobos & lowland gorillas cope with predators in
        swamps?
        > Baboons & proboscis monkeys know exactly the hour & place to enter
        the water
        > to avoid crocodiles. This croc & shark & lion blabla is largely
        irrelevant,
        > IMO, or at least secondary to the facts. Some people don't avoid
        being hit
        > by cars on the road. Does that mean that we live in car-free
        environments??
        > If we have to talk about predators, we have to talk IMO about
        leopards
        > (apiths) & esp.about parasites.
        >
        > >>> I doubt that the apiths fed on marsh vegetation -- they would be
        > vulnerable to crocodiles.
        >
        > >> Ah? Then why are lowland gorillas in their swamps not eaten by
        crocs??
        >
        > > Gorillas are bigger and stronger.
        >
        > Crocs are afraid of gorillas?? Bonobos & even common chimps also
        eat some
        > aquatic herbs.
        >
        > > By the way, marshes have two parts: - The wet part is covered
        with muddy
        > water. Below the water is deep mud. This part of the marsh is good
        habitat
        > for the crocodiles but bad habitat for the apiths. - The spongy
        part is
        > covered with mosses which absorb water as well as household
        sponges. This
        > habitat may have been occupied by the apiths if they could cope
        with the
        > crocodiles. Mosses are fragile, so the apiths could migrate through
        the
        > mosses, but could not stay in one place.
        >
        > Thanks for the info. Well, I don't know exactly how I have to
        imagine the
        > apith milieus - apiths were unique creatures, different from both
        humans &
        > apes. I only know there are microwear indications they ate a lot of
        aquatic
        > plants (boisei & esp.habilis & afarensis), isotopic indications
        they fed
        > partly on sedges, reeds cs.(S.Afr.apiths), and that their locomotion
        > probably included short-legged bipedality (at least at Laetoli),
        suspensory
        > behaviour (gracile apiths) & KWing (E.Afr.apiths). The lowland
        gorilla
        > habitat is an obvious possibility: some populations spend a few
        hours daily
        > in swamps, where they play, sit, feed on aquatic herbs. P-F.Puech
        found
        > microwear evidence that Olduvai habilis might have fed on parts of
        papyrus,
        > where they were found, BTW, eg, Conroy 1990: "...swamp vegetation is
        > indicated by abundant vertical roots channels and casts possibly
        made by
        > some kind of reed. Fossil rhizomes of papyrus also suggest the
        presence of
        > marshland and/or shallow water." Puech 1992: "Cyperaceae fruits
        were common
        > in H.habilis habitat (Bonnefille,1984). Ancient Egyptians ate
        Cyperus
        > papyrus root which was also present at Olduvai in swamp-margins and
        river
        > banks." Mountain gorillas feed on herbs & bamboo at higher
        altitudes. Today,
        > we find papyrus swamps & the most densely vegetated forests on
        earth of
        > lichens, lobelias, senecios at 4000 m in the Ruwenzori Mountains,
        but at c
        > 1.8 Ma (colder?) this might have been at lower altitudes.
        >
        > > > Stop mixing apiths & Homo. - Apiths: wetlands: climb, wade, KW,
        ate
        > calorie-poor foods, heavy dentition, short legs, no external nose,
        apelike
        > brain. - Homo: sea/lakeside: wade, dive, no climbing, ate calorie-
        rich
        > foods, masticatory reduction, long legs, external nose, very large
        brain.
        >
        > > I don't. Our opinions are similar. You seem to believe that
        A.afarensis
        > was restricted to marshes and Homo was restricted to sea/lakeside.
        I agree
        > with the majority opinion that they were not restricted to one
        habitat, but
        > I do believe that A.afarensis preferred gallery forests (and maybe
        marshes),
        > while the early Homo preferred sea/lakeside.
        >
        > OK, but I think you underestimate how different, eg, afarensis &
        erectus
        > were. IMO they were almost as different as, say, gorillas & humans.
        >
        > > If OH 62 is representative of H.habilis, its curved proximal
        phalanges and
        > well developed muscle markings on the phalanges of OH 7 indicate
        features
        > related to arboreal activities (Susman & Creel, 1979; Susman &
        Stern, 1982).
        >
        > Yes.
        >
        > >> It's not impossible that boisei slept on the ground, but the
        gracile
        > apiths no doubt slept in trees.
        >
        > > How could an Australopithecus afarensis baby sleep in a tree? It
        did not
        > have grasping feet. Perhaps its mother made a sophisticated nest
        for the
        > baby. I mean a big, reusable nest similar to nests made by big
        birds. By the
        > way, the chimp's nests are extremely primitive -- just a few
        branches broken
        > and bent under the chimp's body. Maybe this was the beginning
        of the
        > nest making. As the nests got bigger, older apiths slept in them.
        When a big
        > nest fell off the tree it was remodeled into a ground nest.
        >
        > Chimps sleep in trees, sometimes 30 m high. At the time of the
        genocides in
        > C-Africa, Hutus slept in trees, it is told. I don't think they left
        their
        > babies on the ground.
        >
        > > Australopithecus afarensis did not have grasping feet so they
        were not
        > good tree climbers. When they fled a predator it was easier for
        them to jump
        > into a ground nest than to climb a tree.
        >
        > Safe from leopards in ground nests??
        >
        >
        > >> a) A.africanus-like fossils are found in S.Africa c 3.5 Ma (Stw-
        573).
        >
        > > Stw-573 is not africanus. Stw-573 (Little Foot) has been
        discovered in
        > the Silberberg Grotto at Sterkfontein, in deposits initially
        thought to be
        > 3.33 million years old, but now considered to be closer to 4.17
        million
        > years (Clarke, 1998; Partridge et al, 2003).
        >
        > Yes. I said africanus-like: of all apiths it probably looks most
        like
        > africanus.
        >
        > --Marc
      • Marc Verhaegen
        ... Yes, very likely I d think, esp. coconuts? --Marc
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 2 1:18 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          > Marc: you mention this below - Homo: No Climbing
          > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not eliminated
          > during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still used but
          > to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD

          Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc
          ____

          >> >>> I repeat the perennial question: why did Australopithecus
          > afarensis walk
          >> on two legs?
          >>
          >> >> I repeat the essential question: why do you want to believe that
          >> afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It's obvious that afarensis was
          > no runner:
          >> in that case it would not have had broader pelvises than both apes
          > & humans.
          >> Look at the facts. What do we have? 1) Resemblances in hand
          > anatomy to
          >> KWing apes. 2) Bipedal footprints (chimps also walk on 2 legs
          > over muddy
          >> ground). 3) Curved phalanges, to climb trees arms overhead.
          > IOW,
          >> probably a combination of short-legged bipedality, suspensory
          > behaviour &
          >> KWing.
          >>
          >> > We are in agreement. I did not say that it walked only on two
          > legs.
          >>
          >> I don't think we agree: IMO, you see afarensis much to humanlike.
          > Chimps
          >> also walk sometimes on 2 legs. From hat we know now: afarensis had
          > bipedal +
          >> KWing + suspensory adaptations. If we see them in swamp forests
          > (where they
          >> have been found), it beautifully fits.
          >>
          >> >> Where may you expect this combination? on the savanna?? or in
          > swamp
          >> forests, where their fossils have been found?
          >>
          >> > Try to be more objective. Most authors do not mention swamps.
          >>
          >> Most are prejudiced, of course, by years & years of savanna
          > indoctrination.
          >> Try to be objective: Johanson cs.1982 on Afar
          > Locality: "Generally, the
          >> sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial
          > deposits
          >> related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire
          > basin."
          >> Radosevich cs.1992 on AL-333: "The bones were found in swale-like
          >> features . it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at
          > or very
          >> near this site . this group of hominids was buried in streamside
          > gallery
          >> woodland." Johanson & Taieb 1976 say Lucy lay in a small, slow
          > moving
          >> stream: "Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains
          > of
          >> delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws
          > being
          >> found." Please explain to me the difference between swamp & swale.
          >>
          >> > I do not rule out swamps as one of many of its habitats, but I
          > wonder how
          >> it would cope with predators there. The big cats would sink in the
          > swamp,
          >> but I am not sure how dangerous crocs would be. Perhaps the apiths
          > would
          >> spread their weight over the surface of their forearms and calves.
          >>
          >> Well, how do bonobos & lowland gorillas cope with predators in
          > swamps?
          >> Baboons & proboscis monkeys know exactly the hour & place to enter
          > the water
          >> to avoid crocodiles. This croc & shark & lion blabla is largely
          > irrelevant,
          >> IMO, or at least secondary to the facts. Some people don't avoid
          > being hit
          >> by cars on the road. Does that mean that we live in car-free
          > environments??
          >> If we have to talk about predators, we have to talk IMO about
          > leopards
          >> (apiths) & esp.about parasites.
          >>
          >> >>> I doubt that the apiths fed on marsh vegetation -- they would be
          >> vulnerable to crocodiles.
          >>
          >> >> Ah? Then why are lowland gorillas in their swamps not eaten by
          > crocs??
          >>
          >> > Gorillas are bigger and stronger.
          >>
          >> Crocs are afraid of gorillas?? Bonobos & even common chimps also
          > eat some
          >> aquatic herbs.
          >>
          >> > By the way, marshes have two parts: - The wet part is covered
          > with muddy
          >> water. Below the water is deep mud. This part of the marsh is good
          > habitat
          >> for the crocodiles but bad habitat for the apiths. - The spongy
          > part is
          >> covered with mosses which absorb water as well as household
          > sponges. This
          >> habitat may have been occupied by the apiths if they could cope
          > with the
          >> crocodiles. Mosses are fragile, so the apiths could migrate through
          > the
          >> mosses, but could not stay in one place.
          >>
          >> Thanks for the info. Well, I don't know exactly how I have to
          > imagine the
          >> apith milieus - apiths were unique creatures, different from both
          > humans &
          >> apes. I only know there are microwear indications they ate a lot of
          > aquatic
          >> plants (boisei & esp.habilis & afarensis), isotopic indications
          > they fed
          >> partly on sedges, reeds cs.(S.Afr.apiths), and that their locomotion
          >> probably included short-legged bipedality (at least at Laetoli),
          > suspensory
          >> behaviour (gracile apiths) & KWing (E.Afr.apiths). The lowland
          > gorilla
          >> habitat is an obvious possibility: some populations spend a few
          > hours daily
          >> in swamps, where they play, sit, feed on aquatic herbs. P-F.Puech
          > found
          >> microwear evidence that Olduvai habilis might have fed on parts of
          > papyrus,
          >> where they were found, BTW, eg, Conroy 1990: "...swamp vegetation is
          >> indicated by abundant vertical roots channels and casts possibly
          > made by
          >> some kind of reed. Fossil rhizomes of papyrus also suggest the
          > presence of
          >> marshland and/or shallow water." Puech 1992: "Cyperaceae fruits
          > were common
          >> in H.habilis habitat (Bonnefille,1984). Ancient Egyptians ate
          > Cyperus
          >> papyrus root which was also present at Olduvai in swamp-margins and
          > river
          >> banks." Mountain gorillas feed on herbs & bamboo at higher
          > altitudes. Today,
          >> we find papyrus swamps & the most densely vegetated forests on
          > earth of
          >> lichens, lobelias, senecios at 4000 m in the Ruwenzori Mountains,
          > but at c
          >> 1.8 Ma (colder?) this might have been at lower altitudes.
          >>
          >> > > Stop mixing apiths & Homo. - Apiths: wetlands: climb, wade, KW,
          > ate
          >> calorie-poor foods, heavy dentition, short legs, no external nose,
          > apelike
          >> brain. - Homo: sea/lakeside: wade, dive, no climbing, ate calorie-
          > rich
          >> foods, masticatory reduction, long legs, external nose, very large
          > brain.
          >>
          >> > I don't. Our opinions are similar. You seem to believe that
          > A.afarensis
          >> was restricted to marshes and Homo was restricted to sea/lakeside.
          > I agree
          >> with the majority opinion that they were not restricted to one
          > habitat, but
          >> I do believe that A.afarensis preferred gallery forests (and maybe
          > marshes),
          >> while the early Homo preferred sea/lakeside.
          >>
          >> OK, but I think you underestimate how different, eg, afarensis &
          > erectus
          >> were. IMO they were almost as different as, say, gorillas & humans.
          >>
          >> > If OH 62 is representative of H.habilis, its curved proximal
          > phalanges and
          >> well developed muscle markings on the phalanges of OH 7 indicate
          > features
          >> related to arboreal activities (Susman & Creel, 1979; Susman &
          > Stern, 1982).
          >>
          >> Yes.
          >>
          >> >> It's not impossible that boisei slept on the ground, but the
          > gracile
          >> apiths no doubt slept in trees.
          >>
          >> > How could an Australopithecus afarensis baby sleep in a tree? It
          > did not
          >> have grasping feet. Perhaps its mother made a sophisticated nest
          > for the
          >> baby. I mean a big, reusable nest similar to nests made by big
          > birds. By the
          >> way, the chimp's nests are extremely primitive -- just a few
          > branches broken
          >> and bent under the chimp's body. Maybe this was the beginning
          > of the
          >> nest making. As the nests got bigger, older apiths slept in them.
          > When a big
          >> nest fell off the tree it was remodeled into a ground nest.
          >>
          >> Chimps sleep in trees, sometimes 30 m high. At the time of the
          > genocides in
          >> C-Africa, Hutus slept in trees, it is told. I don't think they left
          > their
          >> babies on the ground.
          >>
          >> > Australopithecus afarensis did not have grasping feet so they
          > were not
          >> good tree climbers. When they fled a predator it was easier for
          > them to jump
          >> into a ground nest than to climb a tree.
          >>
          >> Safe from leopards in ground nests??
          >>
          >>
          >> >> a) A.africanus-like fossils are found in S.Africa c 3.5 Ma (Stw-
          > 573).
          >>
          >> > Stw-573 is not africanus. Stw-573 (Little Foot) has been
          > discovered in
          >> the Silberberg Grotto at Sterkfontein, in deposits initially
          > thought to be
          >> 3.33 million years old, but now considered to be closer to 4.17
          > million
          >> years (Clarke, 1998; Partridge et al, 2003).
          >>
          >> Yes. I said africanus-like: of all apiths it probably looks most
          > like
          >> africanus.
          >>
          >> --Marc
        • " A. Lemak A.S. "
          ... eliminated during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still used but to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD ... How about fruits? AFAIK,
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 6 1:46 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            > > Marc: you mention this below - Homo: No Climbing

            > > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not
            eliminated during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were
            still used but to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD
            >
            > Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc
            > ____


            How about fruits? AFAIK, Homo can't synthesize Vit C (unlike other
            primates), I don't think Vit C is plentiful in shellfish/fish/seaweed
            and generally fruit trees don't do well close by seawater. Wouldn't
            both walking and some climbing be required on a daily or twice-weekly
            journey for some fruit salad be necessary? DD








            >
            > >> >>> I repeat the perennial question: why did Australopithecus
            > > afarensis walk
            > >> on two legs?
            > >>
            > >> >> I repeat the essential question: why do you want to believe
            that
            > >> afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It's obvious that afarensis
            was
            > > no runner:
            > >> in that case it would not have had broader pelvises than both
            apes
            > > & humans.
            > >> Look at the facts. What do we have? 1) Resemblances in hand
            > > anatomy to
            > >> KWing apes. 2) Bipedal footprints (chimps also walk on 2
            legs
            > > over muddy
            > >> ground). 3) Curved phalanges, to climb trees arms
            overhead.
            > > IOW,
            > >> probably a combination of short-legged bipedality, suspensory
            > > behaviour &
            > >> KWing.
            > >>
            > >> > We are in agreement. I did not say that it walked only on two
            > > legs.
            > >>
            > >> I don't think we agree: IMO, you see afarensis much to
            humanlike.
            > > Chimps
            > >> also walk sometimes on 2 legs. From hat we know now: afarensis
            had
            > > bipedal +
            > >> KWing + suspensory adaptations. If we see them in swamp forests
            > > (where they
            > >> have been found), it beautifully fits.
            > >>
            > >> >> Where may you expect this combination? on the savanna?? or in
            > > swamp
            > >> forests, where their fossils have been found?
            > >>
            > >> > Try to be more objective. Most authors do not mention swamps.
            > >>
            > >> Most are prejudiced, of course, by years & years of savanna
            > > indoctrination.
            > >> Try to be objective: Johanson cs.1982 on Afar
            > > Locality: "Generally, the
            > >> sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated
            fluvial
            > > deposits
            > >> related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire
            > > basin."
            > >> Radosevich cs.1992 on AL-333: "The bones were found in swale-
            like
            > >> features . it is very likely that they died and partially rotted
            at
            > > or very
            > >> near this site . this group of hominids was buried in streamside
            > > gallery
            > >> woodland." Johanson & Taieb 1976 say Lucy lay in a small,
            slow
            > > moving
            > >> stream: "Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent,
            remains
            > > of
            > >> delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws
            > > being
            > >> found." Please explain to me the difference between swamp &
            swale.
            > >>
            > >> > I do not rule out swamps as one of many of its habitats, but I
            > > wonder how
            > >> it would cope with predators there. The big cats would sink in
            the
            > > swamp,
            > >> but I am not sure how dangerous crocs would be. Perhaps the
            apiths
            > > would
            > >> spread their weight over the surface of their forearms and
            calves.
            > >>
            > >> Well, how do bonobos & lowland gorillas cope with predators in
            > > swamps?
            > >> Baboons & proboscis monkeys know exactly the hour & place to
            enter
            > > the water
            > >> to avoid crocodiles. This croc & shark & lion blabla is largely
            > > irrelevant,
            > >> IMO, or at least secondary to the facts. Some people don't avoid
            > > being hit
            > >> by cars on the road. Does that mean that we live in car-free
            > > environments??
            > >> If we have to talk about predators, we have to talk IMO about
            > > leopards
            > >> (apiths) & esp.about parasites.
            > >>
            > >> >>> I doubt that the apiths fed on marsh vegetation -- they
            would be
            > >> vulnerable to crocodiles.
            > >>
            > >> >> Ah? Then why are lowland gorillas in their swamps not eaten
            by
            > > crocs??
            > >>
            > >> > Gorillas are bigger and stronger.
            > >>
            > >> Crocs are afraid of gorillas?? Bonobos & even common chimps
            also
            > > eat some
            > >> aquatic herbs.
            > >>
            > >> > By the way, marshes have two parts: - The wet part is covered
            > > with muddy
            > >> water. Below the water is deep mud. This part of the marsh is
            good
            > > habitat
            > >> for the crocodiles but bad habitat for the apiths. - The spongy
            > > part is
            > >> covered with mosses which absorb water as well as household
            > > sponges. This
            > >> habitat may have been occupied by the apiths if they could cope
            > > with the
            > >> crocodiles. Mosses are fragile, so the apiths could migrate
            through
            > > the
            > >> mosses, but could not stay in one place.
            > >>
            > >> Thanks for the info. Well, I don't know exactly how I have to
            > > imagine the
            > >> apith milieus - apiths were unique creatures, different from
            both
            > > humans &
            > >> apes. I only know there are microwear indications they ate a lot
            of
            > > aquatic
            > >> plants (boisei & esp.habilis & afarensis), isotopic indications
            > > they fed
            > >> partly on sedges, reeds cs.(S.Afr.apiths), and that their
            locomotion
            > >> probably included short-legged bipedality (at least at Laetoli),
            > > suspensory
            > >> behaviour (gracile apiths) & KWing (E.Afr.apiths). The lowland
            > > gorilla
            > >> habitat is an obvious possibility: some populations spend a few
            > > hours daily
            > >> in swamps, where they play, sit, feed on aquatic herbs. P-
            F.Puech
            > > found
            > >> microwear evidence that Olduvai habilis might have fed on parts
            of
            > > papyrus,
            > >> where they were found, BTW, eg, Conroy 1990: "...swamp
            vegetation is
            > >> indicated by abundant vertical roots channels and casts possibly
            > > made by
            > >> some kind of reed. Fossil rhizomes of papyrus also suggest the
            > > presence of
            > >> marshland and/or shallow water." Puech 1992: "Cyperaceae fruits
            > > were common
            > >> in H.habilis habitat (Bonnefille,1984). Ancient Egyptians ate
            > > Cyperus
            > >> papyrus root which was also present at Olduvai in swamp-margins
            and
            > > river
            > >> banks." Mountain gorillas feed on herbs & bamboo at higher
            > > altitudes. Today,
            > >> we find papyrus swamps & the most densely vegetated forests on
            > > earth of
            > >> lichens, lobelias, senecios at 4000 m in the Ruwenzori
            Mountains,
            > > but at c
            > >> 1.8 Ma (colder?) this might have been at lower altitudes.
            > >>
            > >> > > Stop mixing apiths & Homo. - Apiths: wetlands: climb, wade,
            KW,
            > > ate
            > >> calorie-poor foods, heavy dentition, short legs, no external
            nose,
            > > apelike
            > >> brain. - Homo: sea/lakeside: wade, dive, no climbing, ate
            calorie-
            > > rich
            > >> foods, masticatory reduction, long legs, external nose, very
            large
            > > brain.
            > >>
            > >> > I don't. Our opinions are similar. You seem to believe that
            > > A.afarensis
            > >> was restricted to marshes and Homo was restricted to
            sea/lakeside.
            > > I agree
            > >> with the majority opinion that they were not restricted to one
            > > habitat, but
            > >> I do believe that A.afarensis preferred gallery forests (and
            maybe
            > > marshes),
            > >> while the early Homo preferred sea/lakeside.
            > >>
            > >> OK, but I think you underestimate how different, eg, afarensis &
            > > erectus
            > >> were. IMO they were almost as different as, say, gorillas &
            humans.
            > >>
            > >> > If OH 62 is representative of H.habilis, its curved proximal
            > > phalanges and
            > >> well developed muscle markings on the phalanges of OH 7 indicate
            > > features
            > >> related to arboreal activities (Susman & Creel, 1979; Susman &
            > > Stern, 1982).
            > >>
            > >> Yes.
            > >>
            > >> >> It's not impossible that boisei slept on the ground, but the
            > > gracile
            > >> apiths no doubt slept in trees.
            > >>
            > >> > How could an Australopithecus afarensis baby sleep in a tree?
            It
            > > did not
            > >> have grasping feet. Perhaps its mother made a sophisticated nest
            > > for the
            > >> baby. I mean a big, reusable nest similar to nests made by big
            > > birds. By the
            > >> way, the chimp's nests are extremely primitive -- just a few
            > > branches broken
            > >> and bent under the chimp's body. Maybe this was the
            beginning
            > > of the
            > >> nest making. As the nests got bigger, older apiths slept in
            them.
            > > When a big
            > >> nest fell off the tree it was remodeled into a ground nest.
            > >>
            > >> Chimps sleep in trees, sometimes 30 m high. At the time of the
            > > genocides in
            > >> C-Africa, Hutus slept in trees, it is told. I don't think they
            left
            > > their
            > >> babies on the ground.
            > >>
            > >> > Australopithecus afarensis did not have grasping feet so they
            > > were not
            > >> good tree climbers. When they fled a predator it was easier for
            > > them to jump
            > >> into a ground nest than to climb a tree.
            > >>
            > >> Safe from leopards in ground nests??
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> >> a) A.africanus-like fossils are found in S.Africa c 3.5 Ma
            (Stw-
            > > 573).
            > >>
            > >> > Stw-573 is not africanus. Stw-573 (Little Foot) has been
            > > discovered in
            > >> the Silberberg Grotto at Sterkfontein, in deposits initially
            > > thought to be
            > >> 3.33 million years old, but now considered to be closer to 4.17
            > > million
            > >> years (Clarke, 1998; Partridge et al, 2003).
            > >>
            > >> Yes. I said africanus-like: of all apiths it probably looks
            most
            > > like
            > >> africanus.
            > >>
            > >> --Marc
          • Marc Verhaegen
            ... No, no: it s anthropoids who can t synthetise vit.C, eg, Y.Ohta & M.Nishikimi 1999 Random nucleotide substitutions in primate nonfunctional gene for
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 6 2:19 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              >> > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not eliminated
              >> > during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still used but
              >> > to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD

              >> Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc

              > How about fruits? AFAIK, Homo can't synthesize Vit C (unlike other
              > primates

              No, no: it's anthropoids who can't synthetise vit.C, eg, Y.Ohta &
              M.Nishikimi 1999 "Random nucleotide substitutions in primate nonfunctional
              gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase, the missing enzyme in L-ascorbic
              acid biosynthesis" Biochim Biophys Acta 1472:408-411.

              --Marc
              _______

              ), I don't think Vit C is plentiful in shellfish/fish/seaweed
              > and generally fruit trees don't do well close by seawater. Wouldn't
              > both walking and some climbing be required on a daily or twice-weekly
              > journey for some fruit salad be necessary? DD
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >>
              >> >> >>> I repeat the perennial question: why did Australopithecus
              >> > afarensis walk
              >> >> on two legs?
              >> >>
              >> >> >> I repeat the essential question: why do you want to believe
              > that
              >> >> afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It's obvious that afarensis
              > was
              >> > no runner:
              >> >> in that case it would not have had broader pelvises than both
              > apes
              >> > & humans.
              >> >> Look at the facts. What do we have? 1) Resemblances in hand
              >> > anatomy to
              >> >> KWing apes. 2) Bipedal footprints (chimps also walk on 2
              > legs
              >> > over muddy
              >> >> ground). 3) Curved phalanges, to climb trees arms
              > overhead.
              >> > IOW,
              >> >> probably a combination of short-legged bipedality, suspensory
              >> > behaviour &
              >> >> KWing.
              >> >>
              >> >> > We are in agreement. I did not say that it walked only on two
              >> > legs.
              >> >>
              >> >> I don't think we agree: IMO, you see afarensis much to
              > humanlike.
              >> > Chimps
              >> >> also walk sometimes on 2 legs. From hat we know now: afarensis
              > had
              >> > bipedal +
              >> >> KWing + suspensory adaptations. If we see them in swamp forests
              >> > (where they
              >> >> have been found), it beautifully fits.
              >> >>
              >> >> >> Where may you expect this combination? on the savanna?? or in
              >> > swamp
              >> >> forests, where their fossils have been found?
              >> >>
              >> >> > Try to be more objective. Most authors do not mention swamps.
              >> >>
              >> >> Most are prejudiced, of course, by years & years of savanna
              >> > indoctrination.
              >> >> Try to be objective: Johanson cs.1982 on Afar
              >> > Locality: "Generally, the
              >> >> sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated
              > fluvial
              >> > deposits
              >> >> related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire
              >> > basin."
              >> >> Radosevich cs.1992 on AL-333: "The bones were found in swale-
              > like
              >> >> features . it is very likely that they died and partially rotted
              > at
              >> > or very
              >> >> near this site . this group of hominids was buried in streamside
              >> > gallery
              >> >> woodland." Johanson & Taieb 1976 say Lucy lay in a small,
              > slow
              >> > moving
              >> >> stream: "Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent,
              > remains
              >> > of
              >> >> delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws
              >> > being
              >> >> found." Please explain to me the difference between swamp &
              > swale.
              >> >>
              >> >> > I do not rule out swamps as one of many of its habitats, but I
              >> > wonder how
              >> >> it would cope with predators there. The big cats would sink in
              > the
              >> > swamp,
              >> >> but I am not sure how dangerous crocs would be. Perhaps the
              > apiths
              >> > would
              >> >> spread their weight over the surface of their forearms and
              > calves.
              >> >>
              >> >> Well, how do bonobos & lowland gorillas cope with predators in
              >> > swamps?
              >> >> Baboons & proboscis monkeys know exactly the hour & place to
              > enter
              >> > the water
              >> >> to avoid crocodiles. This croc & shark & lion blabla is largely
              >> > irrelevant,
              >> >> IMO, or at least secondary to the facts. Some people don't avoid
              >> > being hit
              >> >> by cars on the road. Does that mean that we live in car-free
              >> > environments??
              >> >> If we have to talk about predators, we have to talk IMO about
              >> > leopards
              >> >> (apiths) & esp.about parasites.
              >> >>
              >> >> >>> I doubt that the apiths fed on marsh vegetation -- they
              > would be
              >> >> vulnerable to crocodiles.
              >> >>
              >> >> >> Ah? Then why are lowland gorillas in their swamps not eaten
              > by
              >> > crocs??
              >> >>
              >> >> > Gorillas are bigger and stronger.
              >> >>
              >> >> Crocs are afraid of gorillas?? Bonobos & even common chimps
              > also
              >> > eat some
              >> >> aquatic herbs.
              >> >>
              >> >> > By the way, marshes have two parts: - The wet part is covered
              >> > with muddy
              >> >> water. Below the water is deep mud. This part of the marsh is
              > good
              >> > habitat
              >> >> for the crocodiles but bad habitat for the apiths. - The spongy
              >> > part is
              >> >> covered with mosses which absorb water as well as household
              >> > sponges. This
              >> >> habitat may have been occupied by the apiths if they could cope
              >> > with the
              >> >> crocodiles. Mosses are fragile, so the apiths could migrate
              > through
              >> > the
              >> >> mosses, but could not stay in one place.
              >> >>
              >> >> Thanks for the info. Well, I don't know exactly how I have to
              >> > imagine the
              >> >> apith milieus - apiths were unique creatures, different from
              > both
              >> > humans &
              >> >> apes. I only know there are microwear indications they ate a lot
              > of
              >> > aquatic
              >> >> plants (boisei & esp.habilis & afarensis), isotopic indications
              >> > they fed
              >> >> partly on sedges, reeds cs.(S.Afr.apiths), and that their
              > locomotion
              >> >> probably included short-legged bipedality (at least at Laetoli),
              >> > suspensory
              >> >> behaviour (gracile apiths) & KWing (E.Afr.apiths). The lowland
              >> > gorilla
              >> >> habitat is an obvious possibility: some populations spend a few
              >> > hours daily
              >> >> in swamps, where they play, sit, feed on aquatic herbs. P-
              > F.Puech
              >> > found
              >> >> microwear evidence that Olduvai habilis might have fed on parts
              > of
              >> > papyrus,
              >> >> where they were found, BTW, eg, Conroy 1990: "...swamp
              > vegetation is
              >> >> indicated by abundant vertical roots channels and casts possibly
              >> > made by
              >> >> some kind of reed. Fossil rhizomes of papyrus also suggest the
              >> > presence of
              >> >> marshland and/or shallow water." Puech 1992: "Cyperaceae fruits
              >> > were common
              >> >> in H.habilis habitat (Bonnefille,1984). Ancient Egyptians ate
              >> > Cyperus
              >> >> papyrus root which was also present at Olduvai in swamp-margins
              > and
              >> > river
              >> >> banks." Mountain gorillas feed on herbs & bamboo at higher
              >> > altitudes. Today,
              >> >> we find papyrus swamps & the most densely vegetated forests on
              >> > earth of
              >> >> lichens, lobelias, senecios at 4000 m in the Ruwenzori
              > Mountains,
              >> > but at c
              >> >> 1.8 Ma (colder?) this might have been at lower altitudes.
              >> >>
              >> >> > > Stop mixing apiths & Homo. - Apiths: wetlands: climb, wade,
              > KW,
              >> > ate
              >> >> calorie-poor foods, heavy dentition, short legs, no external
              > nose,
              >> > apelike
              >> >> brain. - Homo: sea/lakeside: wade, dive, no climbing, ate
              > calorie-
              >> > rich
              >> >> foods, masticatory reduction, long legs, external nose, very
              > large
              >> > brain.
              >> >>
              >> >> > I don't. Our opinions are similar. You seem to believe that
              >> > A.afarensis
              >> >> was restricted to marshes and Homo was restricted to
              > sea/lakeside.
              >> > I agree
              >> >> with the majority opinion that they were not restricted to one
              >> > habitat, but
              >> >> I do believe that A.afarensis preferred gallery forests (and
              > maybe
              >> > marshes),
              >> >> while the early Homo preferred sea/lakeside.
              >> >>
              >> >> OK, but I think you underestimate how different, eg, afarensis &
              >> > erectus
              >> >> were. IMO they were almost as different as, say, gorillas &
              > humans.
              >> >>
              >> >> > If OH 62 is representative of H.habilis, its curved proximal
              >> > phalanges and
              >> >> well developed muscle markings on the phalanges of OH 7 indicate
              >> > features
              >> >> related to arboreal activities (Susman & Creel, 1979; Susman &
              >> > Stern, 1982).
              >> >>
              >> >> Yes.
              >> >>
              >> >> >> It's not impossible that boisei slept on the ground, but the
              >> > gracile
              >> >> apiths no doubt slept in trees.
              >> >>
              >> >> > How could an Australopithecus afarensis baby sleep in a tree?
              > It
              >> > did not
              >> >> have grasping feet. Perhaps its mother made a sophisticated nest
              >> > for the
              >> >> baby. I mean a big, reusable nest similar to nests made by big
              >> > birds. By the
              >> >> way, the chimp's nests are extremely primitive -- just a few
              >> > branches broken
              >> >> and bent under the chimp's body. Maybe this was the
              > beginning
              >> > of the
              >> >> nest making. As the nests got bigger, older apiths slept in
              > them.
              >> > When a big
              >> >> nest fell off the tree it was remodeled into a ground nest.
              >> >>
              >> >> Chimps sleep in trees, sometimes 30 m high. At the time of the
              >> > genocides in
              >> >> C-Africa, Hutus slept in trees, it is told. I don't think they
              > left
              >> > their
              >> >> babies on the ground.
              >> >>
              >> >> > Australopithecus afarensis did not have grasping feet so they
              >> > were not
              >> >> good tree climbers. When they fled a predator it was easier for
              >> > them to jump
              >> >> into a ground nest than to climb a tree.
              >> >>
              >> >> Safe from leopards in ground nests??
              >> >>
              >> >>
              >> >> >> a) A.africanus-like fossils are found in S.Africa c 3.5 Ma
              > (Stw-
              >> > 573).
              >> >>
              >> >> > Stw-573 is not africanus. Stw-573 (Little Foot) has been
              >> > discovered in
              >> >> the Silberberg Grotto at Sterkfontein, in deposits initially
              >> > thought to be
              >> >> 3.33 million years old, but now considered to be closer to 4.17
              >> > million
              >> >> years (Clarke, 1998; Partridge et al, 2003).
              >> >>
              >> >> Yes. I said africanus-like: of all apiths it probably looks
              > most
              >> > like
              >> >> africanus.
              >> >>
              >> >> --Marc
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Community email addresses:
              > Post message: AAT@onelist.com
              > Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
              > Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
              > List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
              >
              > Shortcut URL to this page:
              > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • " A. Lemak A.S. "
              ... eliminated ... used but ... (unlike other primates ... nonfunctional ... ascorbic ... Correction noted. Thanks. To continue .... Homo can t synthesize Vit
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 6 3:41 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                > >> > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not
                eliminated
                > >> > during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still
                used but
                > >> > to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD
                >
                > >> Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc
                >
                > > How about fruits? AFAIK, Homo can't synthesize Vit C

                (unlike other primates
                > No, no: it's anthropoids who can't synthetise vit.C, eg, Y.Ohta &
                > M.Nishikimi 1999 "Random nucleotide substitutions in primate
                nonfunctional
                > gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase, the missing enzyme in L-
                ascorbic
                > acid biosynthesis" Biochim Biophys Acta 1472:408-411. > --Marc



                Correction noted. Thanks. To continue ....

                Homo can't synthesize Vit C, and require it from food source often,
                as it is not fat-storable or bone storable, it is water soluble
                ascorbic acid. I don't think Vit C is plentiful in
                shellfish/fish/seaweed/shore vegetation; and generally fruit trees
                don't do well close by seawater. Wouldn't both walking and some
                climbing be required on a daily or twice-weekly journey for some
                fruit salad be necessary (or risk scurvy)? DD
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >>
                > >> >> >>> I repeat the perennial question: why did Australopithecus
                > >> > afarensis walk
                > >> >> on two legs?
                > >> >>
                > >> >> >> I repeat the essential question: why do you want to believe
                > > that
                > >> >> afarensis only walked on 2 legs?? It's obvious that afarensis
                > > was
                > >> > no runner:
                > >> >> in that case it would not have had broader pelvises than both
                > > apes
                > >> > & humans.
                > >> >> Look at the facts. What do we have? 1) Resemblances in
                hand
                > >> > anatomy to
                > >> >> KWing apes. 2) Bipedal footprints (chimps also walk on 2
                > > legs
                > >> > over muddy
                > >> >> ground). 3) Curved phalanges, to climb trees arms
                > > overhead.
                > >> > IOW,
                > >> >> probably a combination of short-legged bipedality, suspensory
                > >> > behaviour &
                > >> >> KWing.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > We are in agreement. I did not say that it walked only on
                two
                > >> > legs.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> I don't think we agree: IMO, you see afarensis much to
                > > humanlike.
                > >> > Chimps
                > >> >> also walk sometimes on 2 legs. From hat we know now: afarensis
                > > had
                > >> > bipedal +
                > >> >> KWing + suspensory adaptations. If we see them in swamp
                forests
                > >> > (where they
                > >> >> have been found), it beautifully fits.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> >> Where may you expect this combination? on the savanna?? or
                in
                > >> > swamp
                > >> >> forests, where their fossils have been found?
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > Try to be more objective. Most authors do not mention
                swamps.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Most are prejudiced, of course, by years & years of savanna
                > >> > indoctrination.
                > >> >> Try to be objective: Johanson cs.1982 on Afar
                > >> > Locality: "Generally, the
                > >> >> sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated
                > > fluvial
                > >> > deposits
                > >> >> related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the
                entire
                > >> > basin."
                > >> >> Radosevich cs.1992 on AL-333: "The bones were found in swale-
                > > like
                > >> >> features . it is very likely that they died and partially
                rotted
                > > at
                > >> > or very
                > >> >> near this site . this group of hominids was buried in
                streamside
                > >> > gallery
                > >> >> woodland." Johanson & Taieb 1976 say Lucy lay in a small,
                > > slow
                > >> > moving
                > >> >> stream: "Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent,
                > > remains
                > >> > of
                > >> >> delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab
                claws
                > >> > being
                > >> >> found." Please explain to me the difference between swamp &
                > > swale.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > I do not rule out swamps as one of many of its habitats,
                but I
                > >> > wonder how
                > >> >> it would cope with predators there. The big cats would sink in
                > > the
                > >> > swamp,
                > >> >> but I am not sure how dangerous crocs would be. Perhaps the
                > > apiths
                > >> > would
                > >> >> spread their weight over the surface of their forearms and
                > > calves.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Well, how do bonobos & lowland gorillas cope with predators in
                > >> > swamps?
                > >> >> Baboons & proboscis monkeys know exactly the hour & place to
                > > enter
                > >> > the water
                > >> >> to avoid crocodiles. This croc & shark & lion blabla is
                largely
                > >> > irrelevant,
                > >> >> IMO, or at least secondary to the facts. Some people don't
                avoid
                > >> > being hit
                > >> >> by cars on the road. Does that mean that we live in car-free
                > >> > environments??
                > >> >> If we have to talk about predators, we have to talk IMO about
                > >> > leopards
                > >> >> (apiths) & esp.about parasites.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> >>> I doubt that the apiths fed on marsh vegetation -- they
                > > would be
                > >> >> vulnerable to crocodiles.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> >> Ah? Then why are lowland gorillas in their swamps not eaten
                > > by
                > >> > crocs??
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > Gorillas are bigger and stronger.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Crocs are afraid of gorillas?? Bonobos & even common chimps
                > > also
                > >> > eat some
                > >> >> aquatic herbs.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > By the way, marshes have two parts: - The wet part is
                covered
                > >> > with muddy
                > >> >> water. Below the water is deep mud. This part of the marsh is
                > > good
                > >> > habitat
                > >> >> for the crocodiles but bad habitat for the apiths. - The
                spongy
                > >> > part is
                > >> >> covered with mosses which absorb water as well as household
                > >> > sponges. This
                > >> >> habitat may have been occupied by the apiths if they could
                cope
                > >> > with the
                > >> >> crocodiles. Mosses are fragile, so the apiths could migrate
                > > through
                > >> > the
                > >> >> mosses, but could not stay in one place.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Thanks for the info. Well, I don't know exactly how I have to
                > >> > imagine the
                > >> >> apith milieus - apiths were unique creatures, different from
                > > both
                > >> > humans &
                > >> >> apes. I only know there are microwear indications they ate a
                lot
                > > of
                > >> > aquatic
                > >> >> plants (boisei & esp.habilis & afarensis), isotopic
                indications
                > >> > they fed
                > >> >> partly on sedges, reeds cs.(S.Afr.apiths), and that their
                > > locomotion
                > >> >> probably included short-legged bipedality (at least at
                Laetoli),
                > >> > suspensory
                > >> >> behaviour (gracile apiths) & KWing (E.Afr.apiths). The lowland
                > >> > gorilla
                > >> >> habitat is an obvious possibility: some populations spend a
                few
                > >> > hours daily
                > >> >> in swamps, where they play, sit, feed on aquatic herbs. P-
                > > F.Puech
                > >> > found
                > >> >> microwear evidence that Olduvai habilis might have fed on
                parts
                > > of
                > >> > papyrus,
                > >> >> where they were found, BTW, eg, Conroy 1990: "...swamp
                > > vegetation is
                > >> >> indicated by abundant vertical roots channels and casts
                possibly
                > >> > made by
                > >> >> some kind of reed. Fossil rhizomes of papyrus also suggest the
                > >> > presence of
                > >> >> marshland and/or shallow water." Puech 1992: "Cyperaceae
                fruits
                > >> > were common
                > >> >> in H.habilis habitat (Bonnefille,1984). Ancient Egyptians ate
                > >> > Cyperus
                > >> >> papyrus root which was also present at Olduvai in swamp-
                margins
                > > and
                > >> > river
                > >> >> banks." Mountain gorillas feed on herbs & bamboo at higher
                > >> > altitudes. Today,
                > >> >> we find papyrus swamps & the most densely vegetated forests on
                > >> > earth of
                > >> >> lichens, lobelias, senecios at 4000 m in the Ruwenzori
                > > Mountains,
                > >> > but at c
                > >> >> 1.8 Ma (colder?) this might have been at lower altitudes.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > > Stop mixing apiths & Homo. - Apiths: wetlands: climb,
                wade,
                > > KW,
                > >> > ate
                > >> >> calorie-poor foods, heavy dentition, short legs, no external
                > > nose,
                > >> > apelike
                > >> >> brain. - Homo: sea/lakeside: wade, dive, no climbing, ate
                > > calorie-
                > >> > rich
                > >> >> foods, masticatory reduction, long legs, external nose, very
                > > large
                > >> > brain.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > I don't. Our opinions are similar. You seem to believe that
                > >> > A.afarensis
                > >> >> was restricted to marshes and Homo was restricted to
                > > sea/lakeside.
                > >> > I agree
                > >> >> with the majority opinion that they were not restricted to one
                > >> > habitat, but
                > >> >> I do believe that A.afarensis preferred gallery forests (and
                > > maybe
                > >> > marshes),
                > >> >> while the early Homo preferred sea/lakeside.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> OK, but I think you underestimate how different, eg,
                afarensis &
                > >> > erectus
                > >> >> were. IMO they were almost as different as, say, gorillas &
                > > humans.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > If OH 62 is representative of H.habilis, its curved proximal
                > >> > phalanges and
                > >> >> well developed muscle markings on the phalanges of OH 7
                indicate
                > >> > features
                > >> >> related to arboreal activities (Susman & Creel, 1979; Susman &
                > >> > Stern, 1982).
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Yes.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> >> It's not impossible that boisei slept on the ground, but
                the
                > >> > gracile
                > >> >> apiths no doubt slept in trees.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > How could an Australopithecus afarensis baby sleep in a
                tree?
                > > It
                > >> > did not
                > >> >> have grasping feet. Perhaps its mother made a sophisticated
                nest
                > >> > for the
                > >> >> baby. I mean a big, reusable nest similar to nests made by big
                > >> > birds. By the
                > >> >> way, the chimp's nests are extremely primitive -- just a few
                > >> > branches broken
                > >> >> and bent under the chimp's body. Maybe this was the
                > > beginning
                > >> > of the
                > >> >> nest making. As the nests got bigger, older apiths slept in
                > > them.
                > >> > When a big
                > >> >> nest fell off the tree it was remodeled into a ground nest.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Chimps sleep in trees, sometimes 30 m high. At the time of the
                > >> > genocides in
                > >> >> C-Africa, Hutus slept in trees, it is told. I don't think they
                > > left
                > >> > their
                > >> >> babies on the ground.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > Australopithecus afarensis did not have grasping feet so
                they
                > >> > were not
                > >> >> good tree climbers. When they fled a predator it was easier
                for
                > >> > them to jump
                > >> >> into a ground nest than to climb a tree.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Safe from leopards in ground nests??
                > >> >>
                > >> >>
                > >> >> >> a) A.africanus-like fossils are found in S.Africa c 3.5 Ma
                > > (Stw-
                > >> > 573).
                > >> >>
                > >> >> > Stw-573 is not africanus. Stw-573 (Little Foot) has been
                > >> > discovered in
                > >> >> the Silberberg Grotto at Sterkfontein, in deposits initially
                > >> > thought to be
                > >> >> 3.33 million years old, but now considered to be closer to
                4.17
                > >> > million
                > >> >> years (Clarke, 1998; Partridge et al, 2003).
                > >> >>
                > >> >> Yes. I said africanus-like: of all apiths it probably looks
                > > most
                > >> > like
                > >> >> africanus.
                > >> >>
                > >> >> --Marc
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Community email addresses:
                > > Post message: AAT@onelist.com
                > > Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
                > > Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                > > List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
                > >
                > > Shortcut URL to this page:
                > > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
              • " A. Lemak A.S. "
                ... saltwater I think. Also, many fruit trees grow near but not in brackish or salt water, IMO. DD
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 6 5:14 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  > > >> > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not
                  > eliminated
                  > > >> > during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still
                  > used but
                  > > >> > to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD
                  > >
                  > > >> Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc
                  > >
                  > > > How about fruits? AFAIK, Homo can't synthesize Vit C
                  >
                  > (unlike other primates
                  > > No, no: it's anthropoids who can't synthetise vit.C, eg, Y.Ohta &
                  > > M.Nishikimi 1999 "Random nucleotide substitutions in primate
                  > nonfunctional
                  > > gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase, the missing enzyme in L-
                  > ascorbic
                  > > acid biosynthesis" Biochim Biophys Acta 1472:408-411. > --Marc
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Correction noted. Thanks. To continue ....
                  >
                  > Homo can't synthesize Vit C, and require it from food source often,
                  > as it is not fat-storable or bone storable, it is water soluble
                  > ascorbic acid. I don't think Vit C is plentiful in
                  > shellfish/fish/seaweed/shore vegetation; and generally fruit trees
                  > don't do well close by seawater. Wouldn't both walking and some
                  > climbing be required on a daily or twice-weekly journey for some
                  > fruit salad be necessary (or risk scurvy)? DD
                  > > >
                  > > >PS Watercress does have vit c, but that is just freshwater, not
                  saltwater I think. Also, many fruit trees grow near but not in
                  brackish or salt water, IMO. DD
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                • Marc Verhaegen
                  ... No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C contents of seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD? --Marc
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 6 5:25 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >> >> > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not eliminated
                    >> >> > during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were still used
                    >> >> > but to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD

                    >> >> Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc

                    >> > How about fruits? AFAIK, Homo can't synthesize Vit C (unlike other
                    >> > primates

                    >> No, no: it's anthropoids who can't synthetise vit.C, eg, Y.Ohta &
                    >> M.Nishikimi 1999 "Random nucleotide substitutions in primate
                    >> nonfunctional gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase, the missing enzyme
                    >> in L-ascorbic acid biosynthesis" Biochim Biophys Acta 1472:408-411.
                    >> > --Marc

                    > Correction noted. Thanks. To continue .... Homo can't synthesize Vit C,
                    > and require it from food source often, as it is not fat-storable or bone
                    > storable, it is water soluble ascorbic acid. I don't think Vit C is
                    > plentiful in shellfish/fish/seaweed/shore vegetation; and generally fruit
                    > trees don't do well close by seawater. Wouldn't both walking and some
                    > climbing be required on a daily or twice-weekly journey for some fruit
                    > salad be necessary (or risk scurvy)? DD

                    No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C contents of
                    seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD?

                    --Marc
                  • " A. Lemak A.S. "
                    ... eliminated ... still used ... other ... & ... missing enzyme ... 411. ... Vit C, ... or bone ... is ... generally fruit ... some ... fruit ... contents of
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 6 6:35 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Verhaegen" <marc.verhaegen@v...>
                      wrote:
                      > >> >> > My feeling is climbing was significantly reduced but not
                      eliminated
                      > >> >> > during littoral stage, coconut, fig, palm, lianas were
                      still used
                      > >> >> > but to a far less degree during AAT. Agree? DD
                      >
                      > >> >> Yes, very likely I'd think, esp. coconuts? --Marc
                      >
                      > >> > How about fruits? AFAIK, Homo can't synthesize Vit C (unlike
                      other
                      > >> > primates
                      >
                      > >> No, no: it's anthropoids who can't synthetise vit.C, eg, Y.Ohta
                      &
                      > >> M.Nishikimi 1999 "Random nucleotide substitutions in primate
                      > >> nonfunctional gene for L-gulono-gamma-lactone oxidase, the
                      missing enzyme
                      > >> in L-ascorbic acid biosynthesis" Biochim Biophys Acta 1472:408-
                      411.
                      > >> > --Marc
                      >
                      > > Correction noted. Thanks. To continue .... Homo can't synthesize
                      Vit C,
                      > > and require it from food source often, as it is not fat-storable
                      or bone
                      > > storable, it is water soluble ascorbic acid. I don't think Vit C
                      is
                      > > plentiful in shellfish/fish/seaweed/shore vegetation; and
                      generally fruit
                      > > trees don't do well close by seawater. Wouldn't both walking and
                      some
                      > > climbing be required on a daily or twice-weekly journey for some
                      fruit
                      > > salad be necessary (or risk scurvy)? DD
                      >
                      > No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C
                      contents of
                      > seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD? --Marc


                      Just time for a note: Book called= The sea vegetable book:Foraging
                      and cooking seaweed by Judith Madlener, 1977 Says this: Vitamins
                      ABCDE are found in varying amounts on differents species, in general
                      A & E are rich, B & C depends on spp, location and season but not
                      bad. Red algae palmaria contains 1/2 of C as an orange by weight,
                      green, red and brown algaes each include some spp which have much Vit
                      C. BTW aside from the iodine-thyroid connection (possible health
                      risk) I found only one Dangerous seaweed - a bitter tasting one with
                      sulfuric acid esters in it. So maybe the need for fruit was
                      answered by seaweed. DD
                    • Marc Verhaegen
                      ... Thanks, DD. I forgot I had mentioned it in my book: vitamine C zit vooral in planten, in knolgewassen, fruit en vers groen, maar praktisch niet in
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 7 4:05 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >> No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C contents
                        >> of seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD? --Marc

                        > Just time for a note: Book called= The sea vegetable book:Foraging and
                        > cooking seaweed by Judith Madlener, 1977 Says this: Vitamins ABCDE are
                        > found in varying amounts on differents species, in general A & E are
                        > rich, B & C depends on spp, location and season but not bad. Red algae
                        > palmaria contains 1/2 of C as an orange by weight, green, red and brown
                        > algaes each include some spp which have much Vit C. BTW aside from the
                        > iodine-thyroid connection (possible health risk) I found only one
                        > Dangerous seaweed - a bitter tasting one with sulfuric acid esters in it.
                        > So maybe the need for fruit was answered by seaweed. DD

                        Thanks, DD. I forgot I had mentioned it in my book: "vitamine C zit vooral
                        in planten, in knolgewassen, fruit en vers groen, maar praktisch niet in
                        weekdieren, vis of vlees (uitgezonderd in lever een beetje, en in het vel
                        van witte dolfijnen)": "mostly in plants: tubers, fruits & fresh vegetables,
                        but almost not in molluscs, fish or meat (except a bit in liver, and in
                        beluga skin)". IIRC, Eskimos chew on beluga skin in order to get their
                        vit.C? AFAIK most seaweeds (=algae?) in larger quantities are poisonous for
                        humans or at least difficult to digest. Do coconuts contain vit.C?

                        --Marc
                      • Jose & JW
                        There is no reason to assume that fruit-bearing trees cannot be found near the coast: eg my personal experience is that in Tanzania the best mango trees were
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 7 4:55 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          There is no reason to assume that fruit-bearing trees cannot be found near
                          the coast: eg my personal experience is that in Tanzania the best mango
                          trees were very near the coast. Also mangrove forests have edible fruits. In
                          Japan a lot of seaweed is eaten as vegetable, not just as sushi wrap but
                          vegetables like we eat them. I don't think eating seaweeds in "normal"
                          vegetable quantities is poisonous. Jose

                          >> No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C contents
                          >> of seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD? --Marc

                          > Just time for a note: Book called= The sea vegetable book:Foraging and
                          > cooking seaweed by Judith Madlener, 1977 Says this: Vitamins ABCDE are
                          > found in varying amounts on differents species, in general A & E are
                          > rich, B & C depends on spp, location and season but not bad. Red algae
                          > palmaria contains 1/2 of C as an orange by weight, green, red and brown
                          > algaes each include some spp which have much Vit C. BTW aside from the
                          > iodine-thyroid connection (possible health risk) I found only one
                          > Dangerous seaweed - a bitter tasting one with sulfuric acid esters in it.
                          > So maybe the need for fruit was answered by seaweed. DD

                          Thanks, DD. I forgot I had mentioned it in my book: "vitamine C zit vooral
                          in planten, in knolgewassen, fruit en vers groen, maar praktisch niet in
                          weekdieren, vis of vlees (uitgezonderd in lever een beetje, en in het vel
                          van witte dolfijnen)": "mostly in plants: tubers, fruits & fresh vegetables,

                          but almost not in molluscs, fish or meat (except a bit in liver, and in
                          beluga skin)". IIRC, Eskimos chew on beluga skin in order to get their
                          vit.C? AFAIK most seaweeds (=algae?) in larger quantities are poisonous for

                          humans or at least difficult to digest. Do coconuts contain vit.C?

                          --Marc




                          Community email addresses:
                          Post message: AAT@onelist.com
                          Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
                          Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                          List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com

                          Shortcut URL to this page:
                          http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
                          Yahoo! Groups Links
                        • " A. Lemak A.S. "
                          Thanks Jose & Marc, I agree fruits are found near coasts, I meant they generally are not salt-water friendly, the salt itself is bad for the fruit plant roots,
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 8 12:40 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Thanks Jose & Marc,

                            I agree fruits are found near coasts, I meant they generally are not
                            salt-water friendly, the salt itself is bad for the fruit plant
                            roots, but the climate is very good, so the area is good (Calif &
                            Florida great for oranges) but actual soil-root must be freshwater
                            only.

                            Coconuts have Vit C?...I don't know, still looking...

                            Beluga Skin? I wouldn't expect, but possible, I've read eskimos eat
                            some seaweed.

                            Algae = seaweed and other microscopic floating greens
                            bluegreen algae = cyanobacteria, no longer considered algae.

                            As per book below, stated "most seaweeds are digestable, but require
                            about a week of consumption before human digestive tract microflora
                            adjust to it, (so the first week eating may have diarhia?).

                            I would disagree that seaweed in general should be considered toxic
                            or unhealthy (excluding special exceptions - Sulfurous spp or Red
                            Tide, etc). Many normal foods are poisonous in large
                            amounts...almonds, aspargus..........; as part of a mixed seafood
                            diet, I see it as very healthy. But I'm not expert. DD


                            --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Jose & JW" <joordens.dogger@w...> wrote:
                            > There is no reason to assume that fruit-bearing trees cannot be
                            found near
                            > the coast: eg my personal experience is that in Tanzania the best
                            mango
                            > trees were very near the coast. Also mangrove forests have edible
                            fruits. In
                            > Japan a lot of seaweed is eaten as vegetable, not just as sushi
                            wrap but
                            > vegetables like we eat them. I don't think eating seaweeds
                            in "normal"
                            > vegetable quantities is poisonous. Jose
                            >
                            > >> No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C
                            contents
                            > >> of seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD? --Marc
                            >
                            > > Just time for a note: Book called= The sea vegetable
                            book:Foraging and
                            > > cooking seaweed by Judith Madlener, 1977 Says this: Vitamins
                            ABCDE are
                            > > found in varying amounts on differents species, in general A & E
                            are
                            > > rich, B & C depends on spp, location and season but not bad. Red
                            algae
                            > > palmaria contains 1/2 of C as an orange by weight, green, red and
                            brown
                            > > algaes each include some spp which have much Vit C. BTW aside
                            from the
                            > > iodine-thyroid connection (possible health risk) I found only one
                            > > Dangerous seaweed - a bitter tasting one with sulfuric acid
                            esters in it.
                            > > So maybe the need for fruit was answered by seaweed. DD
                            >
                            > Thanks, DD. I forgot I had mentioned it in my book: "vitamine C
                            zit vooral
                            > in planten, in knolgewassen, fruit en vers groen, maar praktisch
                            niet in
                            > weekdieren, vis of vlees (uitgezonderd in lever een beetje, en in
                            het vel
                            > van witte dolfijnen)": "mostly in plants: tubers, fruits & fresh
                            vegetables,
                            >
                            > but almost not in molluscs, fish or meat (except a bit in liver,
                            and in
                            > beluga skin)". IIRC, Eskimos chew on beluga skin in order to get
                            their
                            > vit.C? AFAIK most seaweeds (=algae?) in larger quantities are
                            poisonous for
                            >
                            > humans or at least difficult to digest. Do coconuts contain vit.C?
                            >
                            > --Marc
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Community email addresses:
                            > Post message: AAT@onelist.com
                            > Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
                            > Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                            > List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
                            >
                            > Shortcut URL to this page:
                            > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Marc Verhaegen
                            ... Thanks, DD. Some He specimens (Sangiran) show microwear indications of they wer mainly vegetarian and specialized in food of little nutritive value ...
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 9 2:56 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              > I agree fruits are found near coasts, I meant they generally are not
                              > salt-water friendly, the salt itself is bad for the fruit plant roots, but
                              > the climate is very good, so the area is good (Calif & Florida great for
                              > oranges) but actual soil-root must be freshwater only. Coconuts have Vit
                              > C?...I don't know, still looking... Beluga Skin? I wouldn't expect, but
                              > possible, I've read eskimos eat some seaweed. Algae = seaweed and other
                              > microscopic floating greens bluegreen algae = cyanobacteria, no longer
                              > considered algae. As per book below, stated "most seaweeds are
                              > digestable, but require about a week of consumption before human digestive
                              > tract microflora adjust to it, (so the first week eating may have
                              > diarhia?). I would disagree that seaweed in general should be considered
                              > toxic or unhealthy (excluding special exceptions - Sulfurous spp or Red
                              > Tide, etc). Many normal foods are poisonous in large amounts...almonds,
                              > aspargus..........; as part of a mixed seafood diet, I see it as very
                              > healthy. But I'm not expert. DD

                              Thanks, DD. Some He specimens (Sangiran) show microwear indications of they
                              wer "mainly vegetarian and specialized in food of little nutritive value ...
                              chewy vegetable foods with a high friction component" but "neither Gramineae
                              nor Cyperaceae" - I wonder which? (P-F.Puech 1983 "Tooth wear, diet, and the
                              artifacts of Java Homo" Curr.Anthr.24:381-2).

                              --Marc
                              ________


                              > --- In AAT@yahoogroups.com, "Jose & JW" <joordens.dogger@w...> wrote:
                              >> There is no reason to assume that fruit-bearing trees cannot be
                              > found near
                              >> the coast: eg my personal experience is that in Tanzania the best
                              > mango
                              >> trees were very near the coast. Also mangrove forests have edible
                              > fruits. In
                              >> Japan a lot of seaweed is eaten as vegetable, not just as sushi
                              > wrap but
                              >> vegetables like we eat them. I don't think eating seaweeds
                              > in "normal"
                              >> vegetable quantities is poisonous. Jose
                              >>
                              >> >> No doubt they needed vit.C in the diet. Do you know the vit.C
                              > contents
                              >> >> of seaweeds, coconuts, figs etc., DD? --Marc
                              >>
                              >> > Just time for a note: Book called= The sea vegetable
                              > book:Foraging and
                              >> > cooking seaweed by Judith Madlener, 1977 Says this: Vitamins
                              > ABCDE are
                              >> > found in varying amounts on differents species, in general A & E
                              > are
                              >> > rich, B & C depends on spp, location and season but not bad. Red
                              > algae
                              >> > palmaria contains 1/2 of C as an orange by weight, green, red and
                              > brown
                              >> > algaes each include some spp which have much Vit C. BTW aside
                              > from the
                              >> > iodine-thyroid connection (possible health risk) I found only one
                              >> > Dangerous seaweed - a bitter tasting one with sulfuric acid
                              > esters in it.
                              >> > So maybe the need for fruit was answered by seaweed. DD
                              >>
                              >> Thanks, DD. I forgot I had mentioned it in my book: "vitamine C
                              > zit vooral
                              >> in planten, in knolgewassen, fruit en vers groen, maar praktisch
                              > niet in
                              >> weekdieren, vis of vlees (uitgezonderd in lever een beetje, en in
                              > het vel
                              >> van witte dolfijnen)": "mostly in plants: tubers, fruits & fresh
                              > vegetables,
                              >>
                              >> but almost not in molluscs, fish or meat (except a bit in liver,
                              > and in
                              >> beluga skin)". IIRC, Eskimos chew on beluga skin in order to get
                              > their
                              >> vit.C? AFAIK most seaweeds (=algae?) in larger quantities are
                              > poisonous for
                              >>
                              >> humans or at least difficult to digest. Do coconuts contain vit.C?
                              >>
                              >> --Marc
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Community email addresses:
                              >> Post message: AAT@onelist.com
                              >> Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
                              >> Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                              >> List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
                              >>
                              >> Shortcut URL to this page:
                              >> http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Community email addresses:
                              > Post message: AAT@onelist.com
                              > Subscribe: AAT-subscribe@onelist.com
                              > Unsubscribe: AAT-unsubscribe@onelist.com
                              > List owner: AAT-owner@onelist.com
                              >
                              > Shortcut URL to this page:
                              > http://www.onelist.com/community/AAT
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.