Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

Expand Messages
  • Tom Patterson
    Does God Ordain All Things? One of our young readers struggles with the above question. How can man make choices and be responsible if God ordains all things?
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
    • 0 Attachment
      FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

      Does God Ordain All Things?


      One of our young readers struggles with the above question.  How can man make choices and be responsible if God ordains all things?  Does God ordain only the “big” things like our salvation and leave the “little” things up to us?  Let’s see if Scripture can supply an answer:
                  
      “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?  Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.  And even the very hairs of your head are numbered” (Matt. 10:29-30).
       
                  “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Rom. 8:28)
       
                  “For from him and through him and to him are all things.  To him be the glory forever! Amen” (Rom. 11:36)
       
                  “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph. 1:11)
       
      “And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live…For in him we live and move and have our being…” (Acts 17:24-26, 28a).
       
                  “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:16).
       
                  “ intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives” (Gen. 50:20).
       
                  “To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the Lord comes the reply of the tongue” (Prov. 16:1).
       
                  “The Lord works out everything for his own ends - even the wicked for a day of disaster” (Prov. 16:4).
       
                  “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps” (Prov. 16:9).
       
                  “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord” (Prov. 16:33).
       
                  “For who makes you different from anyone else?  What do you have that you did not receive?  And if you receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” (1 Cor. 4:7).
       
      Other passages could be cited, for the Bible is filled with them.  I leave our readers to their own conclusions in this matter.  May we give God the glory for his sovereignty!  In one sense, how could God be God unless He controlled, ordained, planned, carried forth, and arranged every detail of life?  The one little detail that he overlooked, relinquished control over, or lacked the power to control might grow into a force that would eventually challenge and overthrow God.  Logical thinking demands that we see God and his work in this light.
                  
      However, what of the responsibility of man and the choices he makes? How do they fit into this schema?  To that we turn in our next devotional study.
       
      Soli Deo Gloria - David Lawrence




      ------ End of Forwarded Message

    • Blair Reynolds
      I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake. If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake.  If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of terrible evil.
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 3:51 AM
        Subject: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

         


        Does God Ordain All Things?


        One of our young readers struggles with the above question.  How can man make choices and be responsible if God ordains all things?  Does God ordain only the “big” things like our salvation and leave the “little” things up to us?  Let’s see if Scripture can supply an answer:
                    
        “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?  Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.  And even the very hairs of your head are numbered” (Matt. 10:29-30).
         
                    “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Rom. 8:28)
         
                    “For from him and through him and to him are all things.  To him be the glory forever! Amen” (Rom. 11:36)
         
                    “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph. 1:11)
         
        “And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live…For in him we live and move and have our being…” (Acts 17:24-26, 28a).
         
                    “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:16).
         
                    “ intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives” (Gen. 50:20).
         
                    “To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the Lord comes the reply of the tongue” (Prov. 16:1).
         
                    “The Lord works out everything for his own ends - even the wicked for a day of disaster” (Prov. 16:4).
         
                    “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps” (Prov. 16:9).
         
                    “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord” (Prov. 16:33).
         
                    “For who makes you different from anyone else?  What do you have that you did not receive?  And if you receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” (1 Cor. 4:7).
         
        Other passages could be cited, for the Bible is filled with them.  I leave our readers to their own conclusions in this matter.  May we give God the glory for his sovereignty!  In one sense, how could God be God unless He controlled, ordained, planned, carried forth, and arranged every detail of life?  The one little detail that he overlooked, relinquished control over, or lacked the power to control might grow into a force that would eventually challenge and overthrow God.  Logical thinking demands that we see God and his work in this light.
                    
        However, what of the responsibility of man and the choices he makes? How do they fit into this schema?  To that we turn in our next devotional study.
         
        Soli Deo Gloria - David Lawrence




        ------ End of Forwarded Message

      • Kerry Gilliard
        Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ? ... Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ? On Sep 5, 2010, at 10:28 PM,
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 5, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ?

          On Sep 5, 2010, at 10:28 PM, Blair Reynolds wrote:



          I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake.  If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of terrible evil.
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, September 05, 2010 3:51 AM
          Subject: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?


          Does God Ordain All Things?


          One of our young readers struggles with the above question.  How can man make choices and be responsible if God ordains all things?  Does God ordain only the “big” things like our salvation and leave the “little” things up to us?  Let’s see if Scripture can supply an answer:
                      
          “Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?  Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father.  And even the very hairs of your head are numbered” (Matt. 10:29-30).
           
                      “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose” (Rom. 8:28)
           
                      “For from him and through him and to him are all things.  To him be the glory forever! Amen” (Rom. 11:36)
           
                      “In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will” (Eph. 1:11)
           
          “And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else.  From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live…For in him we live and move and have our being…” (Acts 17:24-26, 28a).
           
                      “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be” (Psalm 139:16).
           
                      “ intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives” (Gen. 50:20).
           
                      “To man belong the plans of the heart, but from the Lord comes the reply of the tongue” (Prov. 16:1).
           
                      “The Lord works out everything for his own ends - even the wicked for a day of disaster” (Prov. 16:4).
           
                      “In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps” (Prov. 16:9).
           
                      “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord” (Prov. 16:33).
           
                      “For who makes you different from anyone else?  What do you have that you did not receive?  And if you receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?” (1 Cor. 4:7).
           
          Other passages could be cited, for the Bible is filled with them.  I leave our readers to their own conclusions in this matter.  May we give God the glory for his sovereignty!  In one sense, how could God be God unless He controlled, ordained, planned, carried forth, and arranged every detail of life?  The one little detail that he overlooked, relinquished control over, or lacked the power to control might grow into a force that would eventually challenge and overthrow God.  Logical thinking demands that we see God and his work in this light.
                      
          However, what of the responsibility of man and the choices he makes? How do they fit into this schema?  To that we turn in our next devotional study.
           
          Soli Deo Gloria - David Lawrence




          ------ End of Forwarded Message




        • Astacio, Agustin - OSEC
          Blair Reynolds said: I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake. If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 6, 2010
          • 0 Attachment

             

            Blair Reynolds said:

             I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake.  If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of terrible evil

             

            Kerry replied:

            Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ?

            I second Kerry’s request especially since God’s word and God for that matter declares himself to be omniscient and omnipotent. The disciples declared to Jesus, “You know ALL THINGS Lord!”

            One of God and Christ’s titles is that of Alpha and Omega because they are persons who transcend time! God is the God of true prophecy because he foreknows and even elects future events. Are you proposing open-theism as optional?



             

            .

             

          • Blair Reynolds
            You raised a very good question about Scripture. Does it depict God as in complete and total monopolistic control of the universe? I frankly do not think so.
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 7, 2010
            • 0 Attachment
                You raised a very good question about Scripture.  Does it depict God as in complete and total monopolistic control of the universe? I frankly do not think so.  Too much happens in Scripture that is described as against the will of God and therefore angering and disappointing God.  If it were all following a script he'd have written, that would not have been the case, obviously. Also, Scripture sees us as responsible for our actions; hence, we are not preprogrammed robots.  In over 100 passages, Scripture speaks of God as changing his mind,and that means his plans can change, and that, in turn, means that he hasn't decided it all ahead of time.  One major example here is Gen. 6:6.  In the Bible, God's knowledge of future events is often seen as contingent or "iffy," as in the case of Sodom and Jer. 18.  When the Bible says things such as, "You know all things, Lord," it is not apparent what such a statement means.  True, it could mean that God has predestined it all.  But it could also mean that God knows as definite and decided all past and present events while knowing the future as a matter of possibility that may or may not occur.  I would like to discuss this matter in more detail; however, right now, today, I have little time.  If you are interested in discussing this further, let me know and I'll be happy to.
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:49 AM
              Subject: RE: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

               

              Blair Reynolds said:

               I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake.  If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of terrible evil

              Kerry replied:

              Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ?

              I second Kerry’s request especially since God’s word and God for that matter declares himself to be omniscient and omnipotent. The disciples declared to Jesus, “You know ALL THINGS Lord!”

              One of God and Christ’s titles is that of Alpha and Omega because they are persons who transcend time! God is the God of true prophecy because he foreknows and even elects future events. Are you proposing open-theism as optional?



              .

            • Astacio, Agustin - OSEC
              Well, lo and behold we got a bonafide Open theist on the list! We definitely are going to discuss this further. Are you aware your position is referred to as
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
              • 0 Attachment

                Well, lo and behold we got a bonafide Open theist on the list! We definitely are going to discuss this further. Are you aware your position is referred to as Open-theism or Neo-theism? Have you read any works by Open-theists and counter points like Bruce Ware, Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Norman Geisler not in any specific order of course?

                 

                Gus

                 


                From: AACL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AACL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Blair Reynolds
                Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:12 PM
                To: AACL@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

                 

                 

                  You raised a very good question about Scripture.  Does it depict God as in complete and total monopolistic control of the universe? I frankly do not think so.  Too much happens in Scripture that is described as against the will of God and therefore angering and disappointing God.  If it were all following a script he'd have written, that would not have been the case, obviously. Also, Scripture sees us as responsible for our actions; hence, we are not preprogrammed robots.  In over 100 passages, Scripture speaks of God as changing his mind,and that means his plans can change, and that, in turn, means that he hasn't decided it all ahead of time.  One major example here is Gen. 6:6.  In the Bible, God's knowledge of future events is often seen as contingent or "iffy," as in the case of Sodom and Jer. 18.  When the Bible says things such as, "You know all things, Lord," it is not apparent what such a statement means.  True, it could mean that God has predestined it all.  But it could also mean that God knows as definite and decided all past and present events while knowing the future as a matter of possibility that may or may not occur.  I would like to discuss this matter in more detail; however, right now, today, I have little time.  If you are interested in discussing this further, let me know and I'll be happy to.

                ----- Original Message -----

                Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:49 AM

                Subject: RE: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

                 

                 

                Blair Reynolds said:

                 I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake.  If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of terrible evil

                Kerry replied:

                Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ?

                I second Kerry’s request especially since God’s word and God for that matter declares himself to be omniscient and omnipotent. The disciples declared to Jesus, “You know ALL THINGS Lord!”

                One of God and Christ’s titles is that of Alpha and Omega because they are persons who transcend time! God is the God of true prophecy because he foreknows and even elects future events. Are you proposing open-theism as optional?




                .

              • trainmaster@gci.net
                OK, let s get the story straight. I am not an open theist, I am a process theologian. There is a big difference, especially in style of presentation.
                Message 7 of 7 , Sep 8, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                   OK, let's get the story straight.  I am not an open theist, I am a process theologian.  There is a big difference, especially in style of presentation.  However, you are right if you think parallels do exist between the two. Yes, I am familiar with the names you mentioned below. I received my Ph.D. in theology from the University of Pittsburgh.  My dissertation, "Toward a Process Pneumatology," was published by Susquehanna University Press back in 1990. I have other publications out there, including "The Naked Being of God: Making Sense of Love Mysticism," which is intended as a lay version of my dissertation-book.  Now, my question to you is:  Have you read any of my material?

                  Sent: Wednesday, September 08, 2010 5:50 AM
                  Subject: RE: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

                   

                  Well, lo and behold we got a bonafide Open theist on the list! We definitely are going to discuss this further. Are you aware your position is referred to as Open-theism or Neo-theism? Have you read any works by Open-theists and counter points like Bruce Ware, Clark Pinnock, John Sanders, and Norman Geisler not in any specific order of course?

                  Gus


                  From: AACL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:AACL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Blair Reynolds
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:12 PM
                  To: AACL@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

                   

                    You raised a very good question about Scripture.  Does it depict God as in complete and total monopolistic control of the universe? I frankly do not think so.  Too much happens in Scripture that is described as against the will of God and therefore angering and disappointing God.  If it were all following a script he'd have written, that would not have been the case, obviously. Also, Scripture sees us as responsible for our actions; hence, we are not preprogrammed robots.  In over 100 passages, Scripture speaks of God as changing his mind,and that means his plans can change, and that, in turn, means that he hasn't decided it all ahead of time.  One major example here is Gen. 6:6.  In the Bible, God's knowledge of future events is often seen as contingent or "iffy," as in the case of Sodom and Jer. 18.  When the Bible says things such as, "You know all things, Lord," it is not apparent what such a statement means.  True, it could mean that God has predestined it all.  But it could also mean that God knows as definite and decided all past and present events while knowing the future as a matter of possibility that may or may not occur.  I would like to discuss this matter in more detail; however, right now, today, I have little time.  If you are interested in discussing this further, let me know and I'll be happy to.

                  ----- Original Message -----

                  Sent: Monday, September 06, 2010 4:49 AM

                  Subject: RE: [AACL] FW: Does God Ordain All Things?

                   

                  Blair Reynolds said:

                   I think divine omnipotence is a major theological mistake.  If God ordained it all, then we would have no freedom to choose and God would be the author of terrible evil

                  Kerry replied:

                  Would you care to elaborate from scripture why you think so ?

                  I second Kerry’s request especially since God’s word and God for that matter declares himself to be omniscient and omnipotent. The disciples declared to Jesus, “You know ALL THINGS Lord!”

                  One of God and Christ’s titles is that of Alpha and Omega because they are persons who transcend time! God is the God of true prophecy because he foreknows and even elects future events. Are you proposing open-theism as optional?




                  .

                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.