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Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?

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  • AnaLog Services, Inc.
    I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you would say
    Message 1 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
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      I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?

      OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all profit is silly and simple minded*.

      *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded. Doesn't that make you feel better?

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John Thornton
      To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 6:25 PM
      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?


      Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
      >>> Pray tell, how does capital become available to be used in a
      >>> capitalist system without profit gained by self interested
      >>> individuals and enterpeneurs?
      >>>
      >>>
      >> The profit gained is the creation of labor, not capital.
      >> If capitalist claim any share they are exploiting laborers.
      >> Once you understand this you will no longer be confused.
      >>
      >
      > I'm not sure what economic textbook you got your learning from, but
      > in every economic, and accounting textbook I've ever read and learned
      > from, labor is a cost, not a profit. I'm not the one confused, you are.
      >

      No, you are confused.
      Look at what I wrote vs. what you imagined I wrote.
      I claim "profit gained is the creation of labor" and your response is
      "labor is a cost, not a profit".
      Where did I claim labor was a profit? The answer is nowhere.
      Labor is the source of all profit.
      Labor is only a cost to capitalists but this betrays the inequality in
      the system.
      What is the legitimate purpose of referring to the actual source of
      profit (labor) as an expense?

      >
      >
      >>>> Providing a universal basic income is the opposite of self worship. It
      >>>> subsumes the self in accord with a greater social good.
      >>>>
      >>>>
      >>> From each according to his ability... You might want to check with
      >>> some of the original colonies here in the US about how well that worked.
      >>>
      >>>
      >> I'm fairly well informed on US colonization and there is no history
      >> there that serves to refute this idea.
      >>
      >
      > <http://www.aier.org/research/commentaries/819-the-real-meaning-of-thanksgiving-the-triumph-of-capitalism-over-collectivism>
      > Some historian...
      >

      Ha, Ha, Ha. You're funny.
      This is without a doubt the most ignorant summation of history on the
      net. Read the comments below this nonsense to see how disreputable it is.
      Eberling is of course not a historian and my second year students know
      more history than he does.
      He is a crackpot devote of the now discredited Austrian Economic
      nonsense and an Objectivist crank
      You would be hard pressed to find someone who knew less.

      John Thornton




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • James Early
      Syd It is very obvious to me at least that to be a member of the religious left requires more of a seperation from reality than conforming to the religious
      Message 2 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
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        Syd
        It is very obvious to me at least that to be a member of the religious left
        requires more of a seperation from reality than conforming to the religious
        right does. At least those of the right are able to seperate religion from
        reality while to the left it is all religion!
        JWE
        Long Beach, CA

        When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its
        subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are
        forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how
        holy the motives.
        Robert A. Heinlein

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "AnaLog Services, Inc." <analog@...>
        To: <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:13 AM
        Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the
        economy?


        >I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was
        >just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you
        >would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
        >
        > OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus
        > material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by
        > that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all
        > profit is silly and simple minded*.
        >
        > *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded.
        > Doesn't that make you feel better?
        >
      • John Thornton
        ... No. Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building would be built by labor. Now imagine the capitalist had huge sums for the building
        Message 3 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
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          ckinzer@... wrote:
          > I can't agree with your comment "labor is the source of all profit". But perhaps I look at larger pictures than "labor good, capitalists evil".
          >
          > You can put all the "labor" you want into a building or on a job site and sit back and see what happens. Nothing.
          >
          > It takes somebody or something risking capital, having a vision, leading an organization, and so forth.
          >

          No.
          Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building would
          be built by labor.
          Now imagine the capitalist had huge sums for the building but no labor.
          Nothing would be built.
          I only see the "larger picture" since on an individual matter no
          patterns can really be ascertained.

          > Perhaps you are considering all input by humans involved to be "labor"? But even then, if there weren't some money borrowed or invested, it's still pretty hard to get an enterprise off the ground. So that money, dare we cay "capital", is also a source of profit gained. But for the capital, there would be no profit. True?
          >

          Capital can easily be substituted but labor cannot.
          I can replace capital with Govt. funds or even private funds that are
          not capital (all money isn't capital) and the same things will still be
          accomplished.
          Since the source of funding is irrelevant the source of funding has no
          legitimate claim to any of the proceeds that labor does not stipulate it
          'deserves".

          > Here's another dissent. Most things have value that is not forever fixed. Commodities and collectibles are but two examples. Sometimes that value goes up, sometimes down. If I buy something and sell it later for more money, isn't that profit? Where is the labor? You might argue that the labor is what made it originally or my labor in writing the check to buy it I suppose. If you don't concede this, then what do you say in the case where a price goes down? Wouldn't you then have to say that labor is also the source of all losses?"
          >
          > Chuck K.
          >

          All profit isn't capital.
          Profit on alienation has existed since the beginning of trade.
          It is capitals profits that are the result of labor. Certainly labor
          provides something to profit on alienation but it isn't the sole source
          of profit and therefore has no claim to all profit.
          The very fact that a "thing" has exchange value, rather than or in
          addition to use value, is a product of capital.
          If the exchange value rises or falls it has nothing to do with labor per se.
          Sans capital, labor creates use value only.
          If this isn't clear I can try to provide specific examples.
          I could be snarky and suggest James provide examples since he believe he
          is very well informed on the subject but in all honesty I'm not at all
          convinced he can do so.
          I have no doubt he has more knowledge than me on several issues this
          just isn't one of them in spite of James protestations otherwise.
          I couldn't begin to disagree with Syd concerning oil wells since I do
          not possess the needed knowledge to do so.
          The same applies to the list member here who knows about nuclear power.
          I would defer to them with regards to this issue.
          I have little doubt most list members are better machinists than I am
          but I get by.
          History and political economy are heavily intertwined and this is a
          field in which I am particularly knowledgeable.
          We can't all be experts on everything except on the internet! :)

          John Thornton

          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: John Thornton
          > To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 3:25 PM
          > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?
          >
          >
          > Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
          > >>> Pray tell, how does capital become available to be used in a
          > >>> capitalist system without profit gained by self interested
          > >>> individuals and enterpeneurs?
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >> The profit gained is the creation of labor, not capital.
          > >> If capitalist claim any share they are exploiting laborers.
          > >> Once you understand this you will no longer be confused.
          > >>
          > >
          > > I'm not sure what economic textbook you got your learning from, but
          > > in every economic, and accounting textbook I've ever read and learned
          > > from, labor is a cost, not a profit. I'm not the one confused, you are.
          > >
          >
          > No, you are confused.
          > Look at what I wrote vs. what you imagined I wrote.
          > I claim "profit gained is the creation of labor" and your response is
          > "labor is a cost, not a profit".
          > Where did I claim labor was a profit? The answer is nowhere.
          > Labor is the source of all profit.
          > Labor is only a cost to capitalists but this betrays the inequality in
          > the system.
          > What is the legitimate purpose of referring to the actual source of
          > profit (labor) as an expense?
          >
          > >
          > >
          > >>>> Providing a universal basic income is the opposite of self worship. It
          > >>>> subsumes the self in accord with a greater social good.
          > >>>>
          > >>>>
          > >>> From each according to his ability... You might want to check with
          > >>> some of the original colonies here in the US about how well that worked.
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > >> I'm fairly well informed on US colonization and there is no history
          > >> there that serves to refute this idea.
          > >>
          > >
          > > <http://www.aier.org/research/commentaries/819-the-real-meaning-of-thanksgiving-the-triumph-of-capitalism-over-collectivism>
          > > Some historian...
          > >
          >
          > Ha, Ha, Ha. You're funny.
          > This is without a doubt the most ignorant summation of history on the
          > net. Read the comments below this nonsense to see how disreputable it is.
          > Eberling is of course not a historian and my second year students know
          > more history than he does.
          > He is a crackpot devote of the now discredited Austrian Economic
          > nonsense and an Objectivist crank
          > You would be hard pressed to find someone who knew less.
          >
          > John Thornton
        • trainliker
          I think that before I can comment any further, I need to understand how you define profit . I m really trying to understand the point you are making. But I m
          Message 4 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
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            I think that before I can comment any further, I need to understand
            how you define "profit".

            I'm really trying to understand the point you are making. But I'm
            not seeing it yet.

            Chuck K.

            --- In 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com, John Thornton <jthorn65@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > ckinzer@... wrote:
            > > I can't agree with your comment "labor is the source of all
            profit". But perhaps I look at larger pictures than "labor good,
            capitalists evil".
            > >
            > > You can put all the "labor" you want into a building or on a job
            site and sit back and see what happens. Nothing.
            > >
            > > It takes somebody or something risking capital, having a vision,
            leading an organization, and so forth.
            > >
            >
            > No.
            > Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building
            would
            > be built by labor.
            > Now imagine the capitalist had huge sums for the building but no
            labor.
            > Nothing would be built.
            > I only see the "larger picture" since on an individual matter no
            > patterns can really be ascertained.
            >
            > > Perhaps you are considering all input by humans involved to
            be "labor"? But even then, if there weren't some money borrowed or
            invested, it's still pretty hard to get an enterprise off the
            ground. So that money, dare we cay "capital", is also a source of
            profit gained. But for the capital, there would be no profit. True?
            > >
            >
            > Capital can easily be substituted but labor cannot.
            > I can replace capital with Govt. funds or even private funds that
            are
            > not capital (all money isn't capital) and the same things will
            still be
            > accomplished.
            > Since the source of funding is irrelevant the source of funding has
            no
            > legitimate claim to any of the proceeds that labor does not
            stipulate it
            > 'deserves".
            >
            > > Here's another dissent. Most things have value that is not
            forever fixed. Commodities and collectibles are but two examples.
            Sometimes that value goes up, sometimes down. If I buy something and
            sell it later for more money, isn't that profit? Where is the
            labor? You might argue that the labor is what made it originally or
            my labor in writing the check to buy it I suppose. If you don't
            concede this, then what do you say in the case where a price goes
            down? Wouldn't you then have to say that labor is also the source of
            all losses?"
            > >
            > > Chuck K.
            > >
            >
            > All profit isn't capital.
            > Profit on alienation has existed since the beginning of trade.
            > It is capitals profits that are the result of labor. Certainly
            labor
            > provides something to profit on alienation but it isn't the sole
            source
            > of profit and therefore has no claim to all profit.
            > The very fact that a "thing" has exchange value, rather than or in
            > addition to use value, is a product of capital.
            > If the exchange value rises or falls it has nothing to do with
            labor per se.
            > Sans capital, labor creates use value only.
            > If this isn't clear I can try to provide specific examples.
            > I could be snarky and suggest James provide examples since he
            believe he
            > is very well informed on the subject but in all honesty I'm not at
            all
            > convinced he can do so.
            > I have no doubt he has more knowledge than me on several issues
            this
            > just isn't one of them in spite of James protestations otherwise.
            > I couldn't begin to disagree with Syd concerning oil wells since I
            do
            > not possess the needed knowledge to do so.
            > The same applies to the list member here who knows about nuclear
            power.
            > I would defer to them with regards to this issue.
            > I have little doubt most list members are better machinists than I
            am
            > but I get by.
            > History and political economy are heavily intertwined and this is a
            > field in which I am particularly knowledgeable.
            > We can't all be experts on everything except on the internet! :)
            >
            > John Thornton
            >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: John Thornton
            > > To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
            > > Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 3:25 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate
            change wreck the economy?
            > >
            > >
            > > Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
            > > >>> Pray tell, how does capital become available to be used in a
            > > >>> capitalist system without profit gained by self interested
            > > >>> individuals and enterpeneurs?
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >> The profit gained is the creation of labor, not capital.
            > > >> If capitalist claim any share they are exploiting laborers.
            > > >> Once you understand this you will no longer be confused.
            > > >>
            > > >
            > > > I'm not sure what economic textbook you got your learning
            from, but
            > > > in every economic, and accounting textbook I've ever read and
            learned
            > > > from, labor is a cost, not a profit. I'm not the one
            confused, you are.
            > > >
            > >
            > > No, you are confused.
            > > Look at what I wrote vs. what you imagined I wrote.
            > > I claim "profit gained is the creation of labor" and your
            response is
            > > "labor is a cost, not a profit".
            > > Where did I claim labor was a profit? The answer is nowhere.
            > > Labor is the source of all profit.
            > > Labor is only a cost to capitalists but this betrays the
            inequality in
            > > the system.
            > > What is the legitimate purpose of referring to the actual
            source of
            > > profit (labor) as an expense?
            > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >>>> Providing a universal basic income is the opposite of self
            worship. It
            > > >>>> subsumes the self in accord with a greater social good.
            > > >>>>
            > > >>>>
            > > >>> From each according to his ability... You might want to
            check with
            > > >>> some of the original colonies here in the US about how well
            that worked.
            > > >>>
            > > >>>
            > > >> I'm fairly well informed on US colonization and there is no
            history
            > > >> there that serves to refute this idea.
            > > >>
            > > >
            > > > <http://www.aier.org/research/commentaries/819-the-real-
            meaning-of-thanksgiving-the-triumph-of-capitalism-over-collectivism>
            > > > Some historian...
            > > >
            > >
            > > Ha, Ha, Ha. You're funny.
            > > This is without a doubt the most ignorant summation of history
            on the
            > > net. Read the comments below this nonsense to see how
            disreputable it is.
            > > Eberling is of course not a historian and my second year
            students know
            > > more history than he does.
            > > He is a crackpot devote of the now discredited Austrian
            Economic
            > > nonsense and an Objectivist crank
            > > You would be hard pressed to find someone who knew less.
            > >
            > > John Thornton
            >
          • Dave Mucha
            ... we have thousands of years of history and hundreds of governments worth of experience. typically the labor is whipped and the governor keeps the capitol.
            Message 5 of 20 , Mar 1, 2009
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              >
              > No.
              > Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building would
              > be built by labor.

              we have thousands of years of history and hundreds of governments
              worth of experience. typically the labor is whipped and the governor
              keeps the capitol.

              The go'v doesn't get the funds for free, so the penalty is those who
              are caught have to pay taxes. the gov't keeps half or more, then pays
              out small sums for labor and large sums for whips.

              The IRS is our current whip and quite willing to take your home if you
              are caught not paying your fair share.

              now, if the money were free, it would have no value and again the
              workers would be doing it for free.

              Dave
            • Mark Wendt (Contractor)
              Probably the same definition he uses for the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. Mark ...
              Message 6 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                Probably the same definition he uses for the "Govt. provided the
                funds 'free' of charge."

                Mark

                At 11:05 PM 3/1/2009, you wrote:
                >I think that before I can comment any further, I need to understand
                >how you define "profit".
                >
                >I'm really trying to understand the point you are making. But I'm
                >not seeing it yet.
                >
                >Chuck K.
                >
                >--- In 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com, John Thornton <jthorn65@...>
                >wrote:
                > >
                > > ckinzer@... wrote:
                > > > I can't agree with your comment "labor is the source of all
                >profit". But perhaps I look at larger pictures than "labor good,
                >capitalists evil".
                > > >
                > > > You can put all the "labor" you want into a building or on a job
                >site and sit back and see what happens. Nothing.
                > > >
                > > > It takes somebody or something risking capital, having a vision,
                >leading an organization, and so forth.
                > > >
                > >
                > > No.
                > > Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building
                >would
                > > be built by labor.

                <snippage>
              • John Thornton
                ... I shall sleep better this evening now that you have grasped the concept of ad hominem. The person who buys and sells surplus material is creating profit on
                Message 7 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                  AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                  > I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                  >
                  > OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all profit is silly and simple minded*.
                  >
                  > *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded. Doesn't that make you feel better?


                  I shall sleep better this evening now that you have grasped the concept
                  of ad hominem.

                  The person who buys and sells surplus material is creating profit on
                  alienation as I already stated.
                  How does this person get the products from point A to point B if not
                  with labor anyway?
                  Labor is obviously PART of the source of profit for arbitrage. Trade
                  isn't capitalism however.
                  Trade and arbitrage have existed for centuries but the profits from this
                  activity, and indeed nothing specific about this activity, is capitalism.
                  That is not to say that this activity cannot have capitalist imperatives.

                  The person who is self employed is a petty-producer, not a capitalist.
                  However since (s)he must produce for the market they are subject to the
                  laws of motion of capitalism.
                  They are creating products for exchange value rather than use value
                  (unless you live on a hippie commune).
                  Your labor is most definitely the source of your profit. How could it be
                  otherwise?
                  What exactly do you find simple minded about this?

                  I keep telling you capitalism is a historically specific social
                  relation. It never existed before ~1550 CE.
                  It came into being over the time period between ~1550 CE and ~1850 CE.
                  Few would argue that capitalism hadn't come fully into being by ~1850 CE
                  just as few would argue it existed before ~1550 CE.

                  John Thornton
                • John Thornton
                  Which is of course why right leaning religious persons are much more likely than left leaning religious persons to believe the earth is only 6000 to 10,000
                  Message 8 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                    Which is of course why right leaning religious persons are much more
                    likely than left leaning religious persons to believe the earth is only
                    6000 to 10,000 years old, that god created the universe in a literal
                    seven earth day span of time, and that animals didn't evolve over time.
                    Good luck with this assertion too James.

                    John Thornton



                    James Early wrote:
                    > Syd
                    > It is very obvious to me at least that to be a member of the religious left
                    > requires more of a seperation from reality than conforming to the religious
                    > right does. At least those of the right are able to seperate religion from
                    > reality while to the left it is all religion!
                    > JWE
                    > Long Beach, CA
                    >
                    > When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its
                    > subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are
                    > forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how
                    > holy the motives.
                    > Robert A. Heinlein
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "AnaLog Services, Inc." <analog@...>
                    > To: <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:13 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the
                    > economy?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >> I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was
                    >> just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you
                    >> would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                    >>
                    >> OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus
                    >> material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by
                    >> that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all
                    >> profit is silly and simple minded*.
                    >>
                    >> *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded.
                    >> Doesn't that make you feel better?
                  • AnaLog Services, Inc.
                    Simple minded is an understatement. Everything you embrace is designed to argue for socialism. I was just as certain about this as you up until I was in my
                    Message 9 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                      Simple minded is an understatement. Everything you embrace is designed to argue for socialism. I was just as certain about this as you up until I was in my early twenties. Then I came to the oilfields and got a dose of reality. You need one, too. That is why I am curious about your age. Perhaps the ivory tower insulates against having to grow up.


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: John Thornton
                      To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:56 PM
                      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?


                      AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                      > I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                      >
                      > OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all profit is silly and simple minded*.
                      >
                      > *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded. Doesn't that make you feel better?

                      I shall sleep better this evening now that you have grasped the concept
                      of ad hominem.

                      The person who buys and sells surplus material is creating profit on
                      alienation as I already stated.
                      How does this person get the products from point A to point B if not
                      with labor anyway?
                      Labor is obviously PART of the source of profit for arbitrage. Trade
                      isn't capitalism however.
                      Trade and arbitrage have existed for centuries but the profits from this
                      activity, and indeed nothing specific about this activity, is capitalism.
                      That is not to say that this activity cannot have capitalist imperatives.

                      The person who is self employed is a petty-producer, not a capitalist.
                      However since (s)he must produce for the market they are subject to the
                      laws of motion of capitalism.
                      They are creating products for exchange value rather than use value
                      (unless you live on a hippie commune).
                      Your labor is most definitely the source of your profit. How could it be
                      otherwise?
                      What exactly do you find simple minded about this?

                      I keep telling you capitalism is a historically specific social
                      relation. It never existed before ~1550 CE.
                      It came into being over the time period between ~1550 CE and ~1850 CE.
                      Few would argue that capitalism hadn't come fully into being by ~1850 CE
                      just as few would argue it existed before ~1550 CE.

                      John Thornton



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • James W. Early
                      The only people that believe that are as far out mentally as those who believe in AGW are. Both mental types live in a fictional fantasy world. -- JWE Long
                      Message 10 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                        The only people that believe that are as far out mentally as those who believe in AGW are. Both mental types live in a fictional fantasy world.

                        --
                        JWE
                        Long Beach, CA

                        Don't handicap your children by
                        making their lives easy.
                        Robert A. Heinlein


                        -------------- Original message ----------------------
                        From: John Thornton <jthorn65@...>
                        >
                        > Which is of course why right leaning religious persons are much more
                        > likely than left leaning religious persons to believe the earth is only
                        > 6000 to 10,000 years old, that god created the universe in a literal
                        > seven earth day span of time, and that animals didn't evolve over time.
                        > Good luck with this assertion too James.
                        >
                        > John Thornton
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > James Early wrote:
                        > > Syd
                        > > It is very obvious to me at least that to be a member of the religious left
                        > > requires more of a seperation from reality than conforming to the religious
                        > > right does. At least those of the right are able to seperate religion from
                        > > reality while to the left it is all religion!
                        > > JWE
                        > > Long Beach, CA
                        >
                      • AnaLog Services, Inc.
                        5769 years, although those are lunar-solar years and are around 5 minutes short. What makes you believe left-leaning religious folks are any more rational the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                          5769 years, although those are lunar-solar years and are around 5 minutes short. What makes you believe left-leaning religious folks are any more rational the right-leaning? The vast majority of folks in this country, including Obama voters, believe angels are real. The right has no monopoly on silly ideas.

                          Interestingly, when the new left began to disintegrate after the end of the Vietnam conflict, many of the shakers and movers migrated into various odd cult-like religions. Rene Davis (who I knew) became a big booster of the little guru, a really nutty sect. Many others migrated into the "Jesus Freak" movement. I have always thought this was telling. Those of us still dedicated to the new left at that time used to joke about these folks trading one religion for another.

                          ---- Original Message -----
                          From: John Thornton
                          To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 2:47 PM
                          Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?


                          Which is of course why right leaning religious persons are much more
                          likely than left leaning religious persons to believe the earth is only
                          6000 to 10,000 years old, that god created the universe in a literal
                          seven earth day span of time, and that animals didn't evolve over time.
                          Good luck with this assertion too James.

                          John Thornton

                          James Early wrote:
                          > Syd
                          > It is very obvious to me at least that to be a member of the religious left
                          > requires more of a seperation from reality than conforming to the religious
                          > right does. At least those of the right are able to seperate religion from
                          > reality while to the left it is all religion!
                          > JWE
                          > Long Beach, CA
                          >
                          > When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its
                          > subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are
                          > forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how
                          > holy the motives.
                          > Robert A. Heinlein
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "AnaLog Services, Inc." <analog@...>
                          > To: <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
                          > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:13 AM
                          > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the
                          > economy?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >> I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was
                          >> just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you
                          >> would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                          >>
                          >> OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus
                          >> material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by
                          >> that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all
                          >> profit is silly and simple minded*.
                          >>
                          >> *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded.
                          >> Doesn't that make you feel better?



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • James W. Early
                          I still like the rabbi that has documented there is no conflict between the Torah and Darwin. The problem entered with the Roman and English churches that had
                          Message 12 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                            I still like the rabbi that has documented there is no conflict between the Torah and Darwin. The problem entered with the Roman and English churches that had no access to the rest of the original Jewish documentation and worked solely from the Egyptian Septuagint translation into Greek. Because of this they did not comprehend vastness implied in the book called Genesis. I still enjoy reading an Asimov short called Lost in Non-Translation and how the common perceptions of many bible stories are no where near the original intent of those who wrote the documents several thousand years ago.

                            --
                            JWE
                            Long Beach, CA

                            Don't handicap your children by
                            making their lives easy.
                            Robert A. Heinlein


                            -------------- Original message ----------------------
                            From: "AnaLog Services, Inc." <analog@...>
                            >
                            5769 years, although those are lunar-solar years and are around 5 minutes short.
                            What makes you believe left-leaning religious folks are any more rational the
                            right-leaning? The vast majority of folks in this country, including Obama
                            > voters, believe angels are real. The right has no monopoly on silly ideas.
                            >
                            Interestingly, when the new left began to disintegrate after the end of the
                            Vietnam conflict, many of the shakers and movers migrated into various odd
                            cult-like religions. Rene Davis (who I knew) became a big booster of the little
                            guru, a really nutty sect. Many others migrated into the "Jesus Freak"
                            movement. I have always thought this was telling. Those of us still dedicated
                            to the new left at that time used to joke about these folks trading one religion
                            > for another.
                            >
                            >
                          • John Thornton
                            ... Historically yes. Maybe I m not clear enough here. I never claimed capitalism wasn t a improvement over feudalism. It was progressive in almost any sense
                            Message 13 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                              Dave Mucha wrote:
                              >> No.
                              >> Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building would
                              >> be built by labor.
                              >>
                              >
                              > we have thousands of years of history and hundreds of governments
                              > worth of experience. typically the labor is whipped and the governor
                              > keeps the capitol.
                              >
                              > The go'v doesn't get the funds for free, so the penalty is those who
                              > are caught have to pay taxes. the gov't keeps half or more, then pays
                              > out small sums for labor and large sums for whips.
                              >
                              Historically yes.
                              Maybe I'm not clear enough here.
                              I never claimed capitalism wasn't a improvement over feudalism. It was
                              progressive in almost any sense of the word.
                              Capitalism gave the world a tremendous technological boost that would
                              otherwise not likely have occurred.
                              It simply isn't the highest form of social relationship possible.
                              The Govt. of Sweden acts quite different from the Govt. of Romania but
                              BP acts no differently than Texaco.

                              > The IRS is our current whip and quite willing to take your home if you
                              > are caught not paying your fair share.
                              >
                              So is the bank as should be abundantly clear. More people lose their
                              home to the bank than the IRS.
                              The Govt. however has more incentives to work with homeowners since it
                              has social concerns that a private company is not required to have.

                              John Thornton
                            • John Thornton
                              If the Govt. provided interest free loans they would indeed be providing funding free of charge. How they collected those funds is a separate concern. If a
                              Message 14 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                                If the Govt. provided interest free loans they would indeed be providing
                                funding free of charge.
                                How they collected those funds is a separate concern.
                                If a bank made an interest free loan to you it too would be providing
                                funds free of charge.
                                How they obtained the funds would be a separate concern as well.

                                John Thornton



                                Mark Wendt (Contractor) wrote:
                                > Probably the same definition he uses for the "Govt. provided the
                                > funds 'free' of charge."
                                >
                                > Mark
                                >
                                > At 11:05 PM 3/1/2009, you wrote:
                                >
                                >> I think that before I can comment any further, I need to understand
                                >> how you define "profit".
                                >>
                                >> I'm really trying to understand the point you are making. But I'm
                                >> not seeing it yet.
                                >>
                                >> Chuck K.
                                >>
                                >> --- In 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com, John Thornton <jthorn65@...>
                                >> wrote:
                                >>
                                >>> ckinzer@... wrote:
                                >>>
                                >>>> I can't agree with your comment "labor is the source of all
                                >>>>
                                >> profit". But perhaps I look at larger pictures than "labor good,
                                >> capitalists evil".
                                >>
                                >>>> You can put all the "labor" you want into a building or on a job
                                >>>>
                                >> site and sit back and see what happens. Nothing.
                                >>
                                >>>> It takes somebody or something risking capital, having a vision,
                                >>>>
                                >> leading an organization, and so forth.
                                >>
                                >>> No.
                                >>> Imagine the Govt. provided the funds free of charge. The building
                                >>>
                                >> would
                                >>
                                >>> be built by labor.
                                >>>
                                >
                                > <snippage>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • John Thornton
                                My experiences in private sector engineering as well as the experience of military travel around the world is the exact opposite of insularity. It would be
                                Message 15 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                                  My experiences in private sector engineering as well as the experience
                                  of military travel around the world is the exact opposite of insularity.
                                  It would be considered to provide to even the most reactionary person a
                                  "dose of reality". Simply because you held an incomplete understanding
                                  of capitalism when younger that was later supplanted by the current
                                  paradigm does not qualify as evidence that such experiences are either
                                  universal or inherently correct. One could just as easily claim you were
                                  simply brainwashed into accepting capitalisms justifications and merely
                                  jumped upon a bandwagon rather than apply adult critical thinking.
                                  Seeing capitalisms recurring crisis during my lifetime reinforces my
                                  understanding of capitalisms internal contradictions. That and a rather
                                  complete study of the issue.
                                  To imagine oil fields contain some dose of reality missing from other
                                  experiences with regards to understand social relations is silly.
                                  I get annoyed when people claim combat experience gives one some special
                                  insight into something other than simply combat. This goes for any such
                                  claim such as working in oil fields, banking, mining, and/or any other
                                  profession.

                                  John Thornton



                                  AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                                  > Simple minded is an understatement. Everything you embrace is designed to argue for socialism. I was just as certain about this as you up until I was in my early twenties. Then I came to the oilfields and got a dose of reality. You need one, too. That is why I am curious about your age. Perhaps the ivory tower insulates against having to grow up.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: John Thornton
                                  > To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:56 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                                  > > I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                                  > >
                                  > > OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all profit is silly and simple minded*.
                                  > >
                                  > > *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded. Doesn't that make you feel better?
                                  >
                                  > I shall sleep better this evening now that you have grasped the concept
                                  > of ad hominem.
                                  >
                                  > The person who buys and sells surplus material is creating profit on
                                  > alienation as I already stated.
                                  > How does this person get the products from point A to point B if not
                                  > with labor anyway?
                                  > Labor is obviously PART of the source of profit for arbitrage. Trade
                                  > isn't capitalism however.
                                  > Trade and arbitrage have existed for centuries but the profits from this
                                  > activity, and indeed nothing specific about this activity, is capitalism.
                                  > That is not to say that this activity cannot have capitalist imperatives.
                                  >
                                  > The person who is self employed is a petty-producer, not a capitalist.
                                  > However since (s)he must produce for the market they are subject to the
                                  > laws of motion of capitalism.
                                  > They are creating products for exchange value rather than use value
                                  > (unless you live on a hippie commune).
                                  > Your labor is most definitely the source of your profit. How could it be
                                  > otherwise?
                                  > What exactly do you find simple minded about this?
                                  >
                                  > I keep telling you capitalism is a historically specific social
                                  > relation. It never existed before ~1550 CE.
                                  > It came into being over the time period between ~1550 CE and ~1850 CE.
                                  > Few would argue that capitalism hadn't come fully into being by ~1850 CE
                                  > just as few would argue it existed before ~1550 CE.
                                  >
                                  > John Thornton
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • John Thornton
                                  Good lord, I never said left-leaning religious folks were more or less likely to do anything vis-a-vis the right. I m not aware of any research that would
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
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                                    Good lord, I never said left-leaning religious folks were more or less
                                    likely to do anything vis-a-vis the right. I'm not aware of any research
                                    that would support such claims.
                                    I'm simply refuting James simple and incorrect assertion that "member of
                                    the religious left requires more of a seperation [sic] from reality
                                    than conforming to the religious right does."

                                    John Thornton



                                    AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                                    > 5769 years, although those are lunar-solar years and are around 5 minutes short. What makes you believe left-leaning religious folks are any more rational the right-leaning? The vast majority of folks in this country, including Obama voters, believe angels are real. The right has no monopoly on silly ideas.
                                    >
                                    > Interestingly, when the new left began to disintegrate after the end of the Vietnam conflict, many of the shakers and movers migrated into various odd cult-like religions. Rene Davis (who I knew) became a big booster of the little guru, a really nutty sect. Many others migrated into the "Jesus Freak" movement. I have always thought this was telling. Those of us still dedicated to the new left at that time used to joke about these folks trading one religion for another.
                                    >
                                    > ---- Original Message -----
                                    > From: John Thornton
                                    > To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 2:47 PM
                                    > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Which is of course why right leaning religious persons are much more
                                    > likely than left leaning religious persons to believe the earth is only
                                    > 6000 to 10,000 years old, that god created the universe in a literal
                                    > seven earth day span of time, and that animals didn't evolve over time.
                                    > Good luck with this assertion too James.
                                    >
                                    > John Thornton
                                    >
                                    > James Early wrote:
                                    > > Syd
                                    > > It is very obvious to me at least that to be a member of the religious left
                                    > > requires more of a seperation from reality than conforming to the religious
                                    > > right does. At least those of the right are able to seperate religion from
                                    > > reality while to the left it is all religion!
                                    > > JWE
                                    > > Long Beach, CA
                                    > >
                                    > > When any government, or any church for that matter, undertakes to say to its
                                    > > subjects, This you may not read, this you must not see, this you are
                                    > > forbidden to know, the end result is tyranny and oppression no matter how
                                    > > holy the motives.
                                    > > Robert A. Heinlein
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: "AnaLog Services, Inc." <analog@...>
                                    > > To: <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 12:13 AM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the
                                    > > economy?
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >> I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was
                                    > >> just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you
                                    > >> would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                                    > >>
                                    > >> OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus
                                    > >> material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by
                                    > >> that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all
                                    > >> profit is silly and simple minded*.
                                    > >>
                                    > >> *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded.
                                    > >> Doesn't that make you feel better?
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • AnaLog Services, Inc.
                                    You reason like my cats. ... From: John Thornton To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 7:01 PM Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Mar 2, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      You reason like my cats.

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: John Thornton
                                      To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 7:01 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?


                                      My experiences in private sector engineering as well as the experience
                                      of military travel around the world is the exact opposite of insularity.
                                      It would be considered to provide to even the most reactionary person a
                                      "dose of reality". Simply because you held an incomplete understanding
                                      of capitalism when younger that was later supplanted by the current
                                      paradigm does not qualify as evidence that such experiences are either
                                      universal or inherently correct. One could just as easily claim you were
                                      simply brainwashed into accepting capitalisms justifications and merely
                                      jumped upon a bandwagon rather than apply adult critical thinking.
                                      Seeing capitalisms recurring crisis during my lifetime reinforces my
                                      understanding of capitalisms internal contradictions. That and a rather
                                      complete study of the issue.
                                      To imagine oil fields contain some dose of reality missing from other
                                      experiences with regards to understand social relations is silly.
                                      I get annoyed when people claim combat experience gives one some special
                                      insight into something other than simply combat. This goes for any such
                                      claim such as working in oil fields, banking, mining, and/or any other
                                      profession.

                                      John Thornton

                                      AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                                      > Simple minded is an understatement. Everything you embrace is designed to argue for socialism. I was just as certain about this as you up until I was in my early twenties. Then I came to the oilfields and got a dose of reality. You need one, too. That is why I am curious about your age. Perhaps the ivory tower insulates against having to grow up.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: John Thornton
                                      > To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 1:56 PM
                                      > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change wreck the economy?
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > AnaLog Services, Inc. wrote:
                                      > > I used to have employees back in my oil production days. I decided it was just too much trouble. I will never have employees again. I suppose you would say that my own labor is the source of my profit now?
                                      > >
                                      > > OK, what about the one person operation that buys and sells surplus material at a huge profit? Perhaps the inventory is never even touched by that clever operator. The statement that labor is the source of all profit is silly and simple minded*.
                                      > >
                                      > > *Note I said the concept is simple minded, not that John is simple minded. Doesn't that make you feel better?
                                      >
                                      > I shall sleep better this evening now that you have grasped the concept
                                      > of ad hominem.
                                      >
                                      > The person who buys and sells surplus material is creating profit on
                                      > alienation as I already stated.
                                      > How does this person get the products from point A to point B if not
                                      > with labor anyway?
                                      > Labor is obviously PART of the source of profit for arbitrage. Trade
                                      > isn't capitalism however.
                                      > Trade and arbitrage have existed for centuries but the profits from this
                                      > activity, and indeed nothing specific about this activity, is capitalism.
                                      > That is not to say that this activity cannot have capitalist imperatives.
                                      >
                                      > The person who is self employed is a petty-producer, not a capitalist.
                                      > However since (s)he must produce for the market they are subject to the
                                      > laws of motion of capitalism.
                                      > They are creating products for exchange value rather than use value
                                      > (unless you live on a hippie commune).
                                      > Your labor is most definitely the source of your profit. How could it be
                                      > otherwise?
                                      > What exactly do you find simple minded about this?
                                      >
                                      > I keep telling you capitalism is a historically specific social
                                      > relation. It never existed before ~1550 CE.
                                      > It came into being over the time period between ~1550 CE and ~1850 CE.
                                      > Few would argue that capitalism hadn't come fully into being by ~1850 CE
                                      > just as few would argue it existed before ~1550 CE.
                                      >
                                      > John Thornton
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Mark Wendt (Contractor)
                                      Now you know why I own dogs... Mark
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Mar 3, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Now you know why I own dogs...

                                        Mark

                                        At 12:21 AM 3/3/2009, you wrote:
                                        >You reason like my cats.
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: John Thornton
                                        > To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, March 02, 2009 7:01 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: why will tackling climate change
                                        > wreck the economy?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > My experiences in private sector engineering as well as the experience
                                        > of military travel around the world is the exact opposite of insularity.
                                        > It would be considered to provide to even the most reactionary person a
                                        > "dose of reality". Simply because you held an incomplete understanding
                                        > of capitalism when younger that was later supplanted by the current
                                        > paradigm does not qualify as evidence that such experiences are either
                                        > universal or inherently correct. One could just as easily claim you were
                                        > simply brainwashed into accepting capitalisms justifications and merely
                                        > jumped upon a bandwagon rather than apply adult critical thinking.
                                        > Seeing capitalisms recurring crisis during my lifetime reinforces my
                                        > understanding of capitalisms internal contradictions. That and a rather
                                        > complete study of the issue.
                                        > To imagine oil fields contain some dose of reality missing from other
                                        > experiences with regards to understand social relations is silly.
                                        > I get annoyed when people claim combat experience gives one some special
                                        > insight into something other than simply combat. This goes for any such
                                        > claim such as working in oil fields, banking, mining, and/or any other
                                        > profession.
                                        >
                                        > John Thornton
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