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230354Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: It happens again and it caused by mental illness

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  • Ryan Hodges
    Jun 17, 2014
    • 0 Attachment

      Good evening Ian.

      No need for a new thread, I was just looking for a short answer and brief explication and have no desire for any in depth discussion.

      " in fact, a private individual has no way of performing any checks, even if they wanted to"

      Yes, they do. As I posted, you go to a FFL and have the check performed. If you mean private as in can you call about random people, I sincerely hope not.  " (they have no access to criminal records, no access to health records, etc)." As well they should not.  As a person (private individual) that information is not your, mine, or anyone's business.  You shouldn't be able to call and do a background check on someone just for something to do just like you can't call a doctor about someone to find out if they have a disease.

      " there is no requirement for a private gun sale to be checked or recorded"

      That is incorrect as a blanket statement as it was explained to me and I posted below.  A face to face within the same state sale. All other sales must go through a FFL holder.

      " In the USA, the minute a gun is sold, all knowledge of its whereabouts, who is responsible for it and who has access to it is lost forever. "

      Really?  When a gun is sold the make, serial number, etc is recorded on the form that has to be filled out for the background check.

      Here is a link to the form.  You can plainly see that the name of the buyer and all the information about the firearm is recorded.  http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-4473-1.pdf

      Maybe you can enlighten me on how there is no record when it's right there, on the form?   Name, address, birthday, firearm, etc.  It's all right there.

      "The fact that there is no requirement for checks on a private firearms sale raises two questions:"

      Again, as a blanket statement this is incorrect from what I was told.  Only face to face sales are exempt from checks.

      As it seems you know much more than I do already I'm going to quit wasting my time and the time of store owners tracking down answers to your last two questions. I already wasted hours of time on the phone to get answers to what I thought were actual, legitimate questions you had and I'm not wasting any more so I'll give you my closing thoughts...

      "
      How does the current US legislation on the sale of firearms prevent the transfer of guns to inappropriate people?"

      To me it seems that it works at at I would call a good to very good level.  It sure isn't perfect as demonstrated by the naval yard shooting but we have no idea how many hundreds or thousands of incidents it has stopped.

      "
      How are inappropriate transfers detected?"

      I would guess the same way most broken laws are detected.  Investigation.  But that's just a guess.

      Regards.

      Ryan

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ian Newman ian_new@... [7x10minilathe] <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      To: 7x10minilathe <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tue, Jun 17, 2014 11:42 am
      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: It happens again and it caused by mental illness

       
      Hi Ryan,
       
      <SNIP>
      Below I asked if you trust your government more?  You never answered.
      </SNIP>
       
      I am happy to talk with you about trust in Government(s) but as it a distracting digression with respect to our discussion on ensuring firearms safety, I will start a separate thread for it.
       
      Regarding checks to ensure that guns do not easily pass in to the wrong hands, you state:
       
      <SNIP>
      Within the state a face to face sale [of a firearm] between two private individuals is basically unregulated.
      </SNIP>
       
      but in an earlier post (10th June) when discussing laws to reduce the risk of firearms getting in to the wrong hands, you stated that:
       
      <SNIP>
      The system / law, of restrictions is already in place and administered by the FBI through it's NICS.  http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics  It's designed to keep firearms out of the hands of the underage, criminals, people with mental issues, etc
      </SNIP>
       
      Clearly there is a problem with the law - there is no requirement for a private gun sale to be checked or recorded - in fact, a private individual has no way of performing any checks, even if they wanted to (they have no access to criminal records, no access to health records, etc).
       
       
      In the USA, the minute a gun is sold, all knowledge of its whereabouts, who is responsible for it and who has access to it is lost forever. 
       
      The fact that there is no requirement for checks on a private firearms sale raises two questions: 
       
      How does the current US legislation on the sale of firearms prevent the transfer of guns to inappropriate people? 
       
      How are inappropriate transfers detected?
       
       
      All the best,
      Ian
       
      From: "Ryan Hodges ifly172@... [7x10minilathe]" <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      To: 7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, 17 June 2014, 6:00
      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: It happens again and it caused by mental illness

       
      Hi Ian.

        Below I asked if you trust your government more?  You never answered.  You called it diversionary and moved on.  
      Like you, I don't want to get into a discussion on it but I would appreciate it if you would answer that.  I'm very interested in whether or not you, personally, would be comfortable with your government having a list of items that you own and why or why not? 

      -- cut from below--

      You say there may be "remote instances of people buying a gun (legally) and selling it to someone who can't pass the background check".  Are you suggesting that in the vast majority of private sales - guns sold second-hand by one individual to another - the seller performs identity and background checks on the purchaser?

      Yes, I would think the vast majority.  I'm sure not in all cases though for the reasons below.  I think you're confusing two separate things here though.  The reference was to people who can pass a background check that will intentionally buy a gun and then resell it at a profit to someone who cannot pass the check.  Doing this is refered to as a "straw sale" and is illegal no matter what.

      If a private individual in the USA wants to sell a firearm, what background checks are they required to perform, and how do they perform them?
       
      Let's take the case of me wanting to buy a gun from you, where would you need to go to get the necessary evidence that I am mentally competent to own a firearm?


      I can only answer to my state and with the information I got from a federal firearms license (FFL) holder.
        Within the state a face to face sale between two private individuals is basically unregulated.  Taking your example... Let's say we're friends that live close in my state.  I can legally sell you a firearm in a face to face transfer as it is a private property sale.  It was recommended that I get a signed receipt and a photo copy of your drivers liscense so if something did happen I could show who the gun had been sold to.  If you live too far away to meet and the gun has to be shipped, it has to go to a FFL holder who then has to perform the same background check as if you were buying a gun from the store.  The same applies if it goes across state lines.  We could live ten minutes apart but the transfer has to be done through a FFL holder performing a background check.

      Now lets say you aren't a friend.  I put an add in the gun shop to sell a gun.  You reply and want to buy it.  The same rules apply.  But because I don't know you... I could have you meet me at the store and they would do the same background check if I wanted before I sold it to you or if I had to leave the gun at the store for you to pick up then they would have to perform the check.  Again, like above if it has to be shipped it has to go though a FFL holder and they have to perform the check.

      Regards,
      Ryan


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ian Newman ian_new@... [7x10minilathe] <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      To: 7x10minilathe <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Jun 13, 2014 5:28 pm
      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: It happens again and it caused by mental illness

       
      Hi Ryan,

      Sorry - you are correct, I missed your answer.  I appreciate your honesty in stating that you do not see a solution.


      All the best,
      Ian


      On 13 Jun 2014, at 18:33, "Ryan Hodges ifly172@... [7x10minilathe]" <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

       
      Hi Ian.

      No, my answer is right there.  I'm guessing you just missed it as it is a short answer, copied from below...
      That, I cannot truthfully answer. 

      So, how do you do that (not you personally, just in general)?  If it would happen it would become an illegal gun and therefore the law  / legal requirement has failed.  Again, the always cliche laws only affect law abiding people and if people followed the law we wouldn't need cops are very true statements.

      I'm sure there are remote instances of people buying a gun and selling it to someone who can't pass the background check but that's already against the law. 

      From the instance below the law, theft, was broken to get guns.

      Those examples of where there's already a legal requirement so the question actually is...

      How do you get criminals to follow the law?

      Have a good day.

      Ryan

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Ian Newman ian_new@... [7x10minilathe] <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      To: 7x10minilathe <7x10minilathe@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Fri, Jun 13, 2014 8:12 am
      Subject: Re: [7x10minilathe] OT: It happens again and it caused by mental illness

       
      Hi Ryan,

      Thanks for replying, but you digressed in to the area of "I don't trust my Government" and so forgot to answer my question - "How do you prevent legally purchased and owned guns being passed in to unauthorised hands"

      I have found that pro-gun Americans tend to resort to one of three diversionary arguments to avoid answering key questions such as the one above.  They are:

      1) "I don't trust my Government"

      2) "My interpretation of the Second Amendment is: 'You can have any weapons you want and do what the Hell you like with them' and anyone who says otherwise is anti-American, a traitor, trying to make me a slave, etc, etc"

      3) "My God says "I can have any weapons I want and do what the Hell I like with them' and anyone who says otherwise is attacking and oppressing my religious beliefs and freedoms"


      So without getting in to such arguments, let's just go back to my original point:

      We agree that some sort of restriction and restraint is necessary for the wider safety of the community and society.

      We agree that common sense is not reliable.

      We agree that a voluntary code of conduct would not be adhered to.

      I suggest that a code of conduct that is enforceable is a "law".

      Do you agree that the only way to ensure people follow restrictions and restraints is to have a legal requirement to do so?  If not, how do you suggest ensuring people follow "the rules"?


      All the best,
      Ian

       





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