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Re: [7mmnga] Scales - 7mm and 1/4"

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  • B.Rumary
    ... wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
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      Tony Wiese wrote:

      > Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without
      wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell
      me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the first
      things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial
      measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!
      >
      > In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been chosen
      instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling
      drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!
      >
      I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains). At
      that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms in
      Nuremburg, such as Bing and Märklin.

      Brian Rumary, England

      http://freespace.virgin.net/brian.rumary/homepage.htm
    • John Clover
      If you go back far enough, pre 1900, you will find that each manufacturer [Europe,Britain,States] built to his own size without much thought to scale ...
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
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        If you go back far enough, pre 1900, you will find that each manufacturer [Europe,Britain,States] built to his own size without much thought to scale ... everything was impressionistic :-) .....it was only engineers making 'pre-production' models who bothered about scale.  Greenwich Maritime Museum as an example of the professional model builders work with boats for the builder and/or owners of that period.
         
        Very few modellers were making scale models to standards such as P4 until after WWII or even later.  When I compare my Triang of 1975 with Bachmann of 2002 the change is obvious.   Now you can buy RTR to a higher standard than many thought of only 30/40 years ago, let alone the turn of the century and the start of the Model Engineering movement, and model trains, as opposed to toys.  You have only to read early Model Engineer articles 1910/1920's to see what people obviously must have thought was 'good' ...lt was for then.  There were a few making quality models since I have a Will's kit from the 70's which I didn't have the skills to build properly ... but the potential was there for the specialist.
         
        In the sixties before N gauge got started people were talking [ the Peco publicsation ] of an 8mm gauge or OOO as half of OO -- 16.5 which was half of 32mm etc. etc.  [ 5/16 --  5/8 --  10/8 etc.  ]
        johnclover@...
        Dunedin   New Zealand
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: B.Rumary

        I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains). At
        that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms in
        Nuremburg, such as Bing and Märklin.

        Brian Rumary, England
      • David Leslie Taylor
        Dear All, Interesting though this scale discussion is, I believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone tell us a bit more about the show please?
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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          Dear All,
          Interesting though this scale discussion is, I
          believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone
          tell us a bit more about the show please? About the
          layouts? Any interesting new kits to buy?
          Not all of us were able to get there. I was
          exhibiting elsewhere, and would love to have in a review of
          ExpoNG, and/or a discussion about the layouts, layout
          design etc. I'm sure our overseas members would be
          interested as well.
          Dave.T

          On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:37:16 +1200 John Clover
          <johnclover@...> wrote:

          > If you go back far enough, pre 1900, you will find that each manufacturer [Europe,Britain,States] built to his own size without much thought to scale ... everything was impressionistic :-) .....it was only engineers making 'pre-production' models who bothered about scale. Greenwich Maritime Museum as an example of the professional model builders work with boats for the builder and/or owners of that period.
          >
          > Very few modellers were making scale models to standards such as P4 until after WWII or even later. When I compare my Triang of 1975 with Bachmann of 2002 the change is obvious. Now you can buy RTR to a higher standard than many thought of only 30/40 years ago, let alone the turn of the century and the start of the Model Engineering movement, and model trains, as opposed to toys. You have only to read early Model Engineer articles 1910/1920's to see what people obviously must have thought was 'good' ...lt was for then. There were a few making quality models since I have a Will's kit from the 70's which I didn't have the skills to build properly ... but the potential was there for the specialist.
          >
          > In the sixties before N gauge got started people were talking [ the Peco publicsation ] of an 8mm gauge or OOO as half of OO -- 16.5 which was half of 32mm etc. etc. [ 5/16 -- 5/8 -- 10/8 etc. ]
          > johnclover@...
          > Dunedin New Zealand
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: B.Rumary
          >
          > I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains). At
          > that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms in
          > Nuremburg, such as Bing and M�rklin.
          >
          > Brian Rumary, England
          >

          ----------------------
          David Leslie Taylor
          University of Exeter
        • Vincent Bradley
          If memory serves me correctly, early plastic kit manufacturers standardized box sizes and made the kits to fit. We need to remember our roots in the toy
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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            If memory serves me correctly, early plastic kit manufacturers standardized
            box
            sizes and made the kits to fit. We need to remember our roots in the toy
            world.
            Vincent Bradley, 1707

            -----Original Message-----
            From: B.Rumary [mailto:brian.rumary@...]
            Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 7:57 PM
            To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Scales - 7mm and 1/4"


            Tony Wiese wrote:

            > Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without
            wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please
            tell
            me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the
            first
            things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial
            measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!
            >
            > In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been
            chosen
            instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling
            drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!
            >
            I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains).
            At
            that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms
            in
            Nuremburg, such as Bing and Märklin.

            Brian Rumary, England

            http://freespace.virgin.net/brian.rumary/homepage.htm




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          • adriangrayfr
            ... Trade News will have to wait until you get oyur next Association mailing I m afraid David, if only because I m still writing it up and press date is next
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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              --- In 7mmnga@y..., David Leslie Taylor <DLTaylor@e...> wrote:
              > Dear All,
              > Interesting though this scale discussion is, I
              > believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone
              > tell us a bit more about the show please? About the
              > layouts? Any interesting new kits to buy?
              >
              Trade News will have to wait until you get oyur next Association
              mailing I'm afraid David, if only because I'm still writing it up and
              press date is next week.
              Suffice it to say that brand spnking new kits were thin on the
              ground, with the exception of Leek & Manifold carriages from Dorset
              Kits - excellent kits, but HUGE - almost as long as some small SG
              carriages. NOT recommended for a 2x4 diorama!!

              Layouts........
              La Safre we've already raved about - but I now remember the clever
              use of a mirror to make stock sidings look twice as full and long as
              they really were. With that trick I could decieve myself into
              thinking I'd already biult 100 slate wagons!!
              Andrew Griffiths was showing Tal-y-bont which is very, some lovely FR
              stock ex-Steve Pegler. Unfortunately displayed a bit low down for an
              exhibition as crowded as ExpoNG, though junior friendly of course.
              Otto Schouwstra (??) with a lovely 2ftx2ft diorama as seen in the
              Review - Timmer brick & tile works. Stunning modelling, lovely sound
              but all lacking in 'atmosphere', a bit stark in my opinion.
              Chris Payne's Sutton Wharf, while 1:25 is lovely to look at. Clever
              staging made best use of space.

              There were some others but the boysd have arrived for toy train
              night, I'll think on't later maybe.

              Adrian
            • Jack TREVES
              You can find some pictures of Expo NG on : http://narrow-gauge.org/album/en/psubcat.aspx?ID=62 Jack TREVES http://narrow-gauge.org/zafra/English/ ... From:
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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                You can find some pictures of Expo NG on :

                http://narrow-gauge.org/album/en/psubcat.aspx?ID=62

                Jack TREVES
                http://narrow-gauge.org/zafra/English/

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "David Leslie Taylor" <DLTaylor@...>
                To: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                Cc: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:20 PM
                Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Scales ExpoNG


                Dear All,
                Interesting though this scale discussion is, I
                believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone
                tell us a bit more about the show please? About the
                layouts? Any interesting new kits to buy?
                Not all of us were able to get there. I was
                exhibiting elsewhere, and would love to have in a review of
                ExpoNG, and/or a discussion about the layouts, layout
                design etc. I'm sure our overseas members would be
                interested as well.
                Dave.T
              • John Clover
                One of my bees-in-the-bonnet is the selfishness of the adult railway modeller who needs the revenue from the junior visitor but prefers to build layouts at
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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                  One of my 'bees-in-the-bonnet' is the selfishness of the adult railway modeller who needs the revenue from the junior visitor but prefers to build layouts at eye level or way above junior's eye level.   So poor suffering parent has to lift juniors up to see the display.
                  We provide chairs for junior to stand on ...
                  But better would be low level displays and encouraging adults to sit and enjoy on the afore mentioned chairs.
                  However,  I guess impractical for the more densely populated areas of the world :-)
                  johnclover@...
                  Dunedin   New Zealand
                   
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 7:53 AM
                  Subject: [7mmnga] Re: Scales ExpoNG

                    Unfortunately displayed a bit low down for an
                  exhibition as crowded as ExpoNG, though junior friendly of course.
                • John Dennis
                  Jack (and all who attended)... On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:42:01 +0100, Jack TREVES ... Thanks for the photos and the descriptions. A question: is the layout in
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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                    Jack (and all who attended)...

                    On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:42:01 +0100, "Jack TREVES"
                    <jtreves@...> wrote:

                    >You can find some pictures of Expo NG on :
                    >
                    >http://narrow-gauge.org/album/en/psubcat.aspx?ID=62
                    >

                    Thanks for the photos and the descriptions. A question: is the layout
                    in Jack's photos "East Quay - Chapel Pill" really HOn2? With 7mm
                    gauge track? If so, then I "tip me hat" to them - that seems like
                    hard work to me.

                    John

                    ==========================================================
                    John Dennis jdennis@...
                    Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                    and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                    Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optushome.com.au/duttonbay
                    WebX http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
                  • Dave Balcombe
                    John Dennis wrote: A question: is the layout in Jack s photos East Quay - Chapel Pill really HOn2? With 7mm gauge track? If so, then I tip me hat to them
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
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                      John Dennis wrote:
                      A question: is the layout in Jack's photos "East Quay - Chapel Pill" really HOn2?  With 7mm gauge track?  If so, then I "tip me hat" to them - that seems like hard work to me.
                      John
                      It's actually 009 (4mm to the foot on 9mm track) Not that it takes anything away from it. It's a superb layout.

                      Regards

                      Dave Balcombe UK

                      Website updated 1st of every Month

                      http://www.teetering.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

                      Outgoing Emails are automatically checked for viruses

                       


                    • Jack TREVES
                      Sorry I made a mistake. For me 4mm scale on 9mm gauge should have been HOe. It is in fact Deer Creek whose scale was not in my pictures database (3.5mm on 9mm
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
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                        Sorry I made a mistake. For me 4mm scale on 9mm gauge should have been HOe. It is in fact Deer Creek whose scale was not in my pictures database (3.5mm on 9mm gauge), I have to add it. It seems that every layout in Expo NG had its own scale : 3.5mm, 4mm, 7mm, Oe, On30, 1/35, 1/25, Gn15, ...

                        Jack TREVES

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Dave Balcombe" <oldgoat@...>
                        To: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:31 AM
                        Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Scales ExpoNG


                        John Dennis wrote:
                        A question: is the layout in Jack's photos "East Quay - Chapel Pill" really HOn2? With 7mm gauge track? If so, then I "tip me hat" to them - that seems like hard work to me.
                        John

                        It's actually 009 (4mm to the foot on 9mm track) Not that it takes anything away from it. It's a superb layout.
                        Regards
                      • Peter Whitehead
                        Hi I ve added some photographs that I took at Expo, of two 7mm scale layouts. They can be found in the folder ExpoNG2002 in the Photos section of the group.
                        Message 11 of 19 , Nov 3, 2002
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                          Hi

                          I've added some photographs that I took at Expo, of two 7mm scale
                          layouts. They can be found in the folder ExpoNG2002 in the Photos
                          section of the group.

                          Peter Whitehead
                        • John Dennis
                          Greetings all, Does anyone know of a source for 6 and 8 spoke, CURVED spoke wheels? I m looking for 9.5mm dia 6 spoke and 12.7mm dia 8 spoke curved spoke
                          Message 12 of 19 , Nov 4, 2002
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                            Greetings all,

                            Does anyone know of a source for 6 and 8 spoke, CURVED spoke
                            wheels? I'm looking for 9.5mm dia 6 spoke and 12.7mm dia 8 spoke
                            curved spoke wheels for with inside frame logging bogies.

                            I have looked through the 7mm NGA sales list, but found nothing
                            (although I can't guarantee I have read every one of the lines on this
                            list...)

                            Thanks in advance,
                            John

                            ==========================================================
                            John Dennis jdennis@...
                            Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                            and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                            Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optushome.com.au/duttonbay
                            WebX http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
                          • David Leslie Taylor
                            Hi John, Alan Gibson produces curly spoke wheels, 9.5 and 12mm diameter. Not sure offhand about the number of spokes, will have to take a look. They are also
                            Message 13 of 19 , Nov 5, 2002
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                              Hi John,
                              Alan Gibson produces curly spoke wheels, 9.5 and
                              12mm diameter. Not sure offhand about the number of
                              spokes, will have to take a look. They are also stocked by
                              S&D models. I think Roy Link does his own as well.
                              The axle is a standard 26mm pinpoint, but you could
                              always file the ends off, or replace it with 2mm
                              silver-steel (from an engineering supplier).
                              The wheels are a force fit on the axle, so could be
                              moved to different gauges with care. Any help?
                              Dave.T

                              On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:12:15 +1100 John Dennis
                              <jdennis@...> wrote:

                              > Greetings all,
                              >
                              > Does anyone know of a source for 6 and 8 spoke, CURVED spoke
                              > wheels? I'm looking for 9.5mm dia 6 spoke and 12.7mm dia 8 spoke
                              > curved spoke wheels for with inside frame logging bogies.
                              >
                              > I have looked through the 7mm NGA sales list, but found nothing
                              > (although I can't guarantee I have read every one of the lines on this
                              > list...)
                              >
                              > Thanks in advance,
                              > John
                              >
                              > ==========================================================
                              > John Dennis jdennis@...
                              > Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                              > and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                              > Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optushome.com.au/duttonbay
                              > WebX http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > 7mmnga-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >

                              ----------------------
                              David Leslie Taylor
                              University of Exeter
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