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Re: Scales - 7mm and 1/4"

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  • Tony Wiese
    Hi everyone, Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 27, 2002
      Hi everyone,

      Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the first things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!

      In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been chosen instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!

      Cheers
      Tony




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    • Dave Balcombe
      Tony Wiese wrote: without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
        Tony Wiese wrote:
         
        <SNIP>without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units?<SNIP>
         
        Probably the same guy that thought 4'8½" was a good round measurement!!!

        Regards

        Dave Balcombe UK

        Website updated 1st of every Month

        http://www.teetering.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

        Outgoing Emails are automatically checked for viruses

         

      • John Clover
        It comes from English rulers from way back, 1940 at least, having metric on one side with fractions on the other. As a schoolboy I found that a millimetre is a
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
          It comes from English rulers from way back, 1940 at least, having metric on one side with fractions on the other.
          As a schoolboy I found that a millimetre is a nice small distance and rarely used fractions, a clumsy system to those not indoctrinated with it.   Thous much to be prefered, it's a form of metric anyway.
           
          I would guess that a fraction to the foot being clumsy, people naturally migrated to the metric for what they were using to the foot.
           
          Henry Greenly, noted engineer and designer of estate railways as well as smaller live steam over the first quarter and more of the 20 century, describes Gauge One as being 45mm gauge instead of the other school who even to this day call it 1¾" or 44.5mm.    He also describes the scale as 10mm/ft.   So it all started way back in the mists of time in the 19th century I would guess.   When Gauge Two was two inches [50.8mm] instead of what it is now.   I'm on my soapbox there :-)    
           
          johnclover@...
          Dunedin   New Zealand
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:17 PM
          Subject: [7mmnga] Re: Scales - 7mm and 1/4"

          Hi everyone,

          Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units?  One of the first things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!

          In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been chosen instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!

          Cheers
          Tony




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        • John Clover
          PS. You do not find metric and imperial on drawings when using metric to the foot. System purity is maintained since on the drawing everything is in
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
            PS.   You do not find metric and imperial on drawings when using metric to the foot.    System purity is maintained since on the drawing everything is in metric.     However, there are some clueless twits who have combined metric and thous or fractions in Model Engineer.  That was when the English finally caught up with the sensible world and reluctantly went metric .... I have diehard freinds who still work in thous and fractions ... it makes sense not to replace hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of equipment.
             
            johnclover@...
            Dunedin   New Zealand
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 3:17 PM
            Subject: [7mmnga] Re: Scales - 7mm and 1/4"

            Hi everyone,

            Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units?  One of the first things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!

            In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been chosen instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!

            Cheers
            Tony




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          • John Clover
            Oh come now ...that was detirmined by the width of the standard Roman pair of horses arses. Sorry, backsides. johnclover@hyper.net.nz Dunedin New Zealand
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
              Oh come now ...that was detirmined by the width of the standard Roman pair of horses arses.  Sorry, backsides.
              johnclover@...
              Dunedin   New Zealand
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 8:04 PM
              Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Re: Scales - 7mm and 1/4"

              Tony Wiese wrote:
               
              <SNIP>without wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units?<SNIP>
               
              Probably the same guy that thought 4'8½" was a good round measurement!!!

              Regards

              Dave Balcombe UK

              of Service.
            • Tony Wiese
              Hi again everyone, Well now you mention it John, when I worked at Hunslet some of their older drawinmgs that had been altered over the years had a combination
              Message 6 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
                Hi again everyone,

                Well now you mention it John, when I worked at Hunslet some of their older drawinmgs that had been altered over the years had a combination of metric and imperial measurements on the same drawing, though unlike the ones you mention in Model Engineer they weren't drawn that way originally of course.

                I have to admit that when looking at a rule the millimetres and half millimetres are much easier to read and understand than 1/32nds and 1/64ths yet for bigger measurements it's easier to think of say 4ft rather than 1.2 metres, whilst at the opposite end of the scale I find it easier to visualise 2 thou' rather than 0.05mm.

                Regards to all
                Tony


                >
                > From: "John Clover" <johnclover@...>
                > Date: Mon 28/Oct/2002 09:21 GMT
                > To: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Re: Scales - 7mm and 1/4"
                >
                > PS. You do not find metric and imperial on drawings when using metric to the foot. System purity is maintained since on the drawing everything is in metric. However, there are some clueless twits who have combined metric and thous or fractions in Model Engineer. That was when the English finally caught up with the sensible world and reluctantly went metric .... I have diehard freinds who still work in thous and fractions ... it makes sense not to replace hundreds/thousands of dollars worth of equipment.
                >
                > johnclover@...
                > Dunedin New Zealand
                >
                >


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              • B.Rumary
                ... wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the
                Message 7 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
                  Tony Wiese wrote:

                  > Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without
                  wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please tell
                  me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the first
                  things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial
                  measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!
                  >
                  > In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been chosen
                  instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling
                  drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!
                  >
                  I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains). At
                  that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms in
                  Nuremburg, such as Bing and Märklin.

                  Brian Rumary, England

                  http://freespace.virgin.net/brian.rumary/homepage.htm
                • John Clover
                  If you go back far enough, pre 1900, you will find that each manufacturer [Europe,Britain,States] built to his own size without much thought to scale ...
                  Message 8 of 19 , Oct 28, 2002
                    If you go back far enough, pre 1900, you will find that each manufacturer [Europe,Britain,States] built to his own size without much thought to scale ... everything was impressionistic :-) .....it was only engineers making 'pre-production' models who bothered about scale.  Greenwich Maritime Museum as an example of the professional model builders work with boats for the builder and/or owners of that period.
                     
                    Very few modellers were making scale models to standards such as P4 until after WWII or even later.  When I compare my Triang of 1975 with Bachmann of 2002 the change is obvious.   Now you can buy RTR to a higher standard than many thought of only 30/40 years ago, let alone the turn of the century and the start of the Model Engineering movement, and model trains, as opposed to toys.  You have only to read early Model Engineer articles 1910/1920's to see what people obviously must have thought was 'good' ...lt was for then.  There were a few making quality models since I have a Will's kit from the 70's which I didn't have the skills to build properly ... but the potential was there for the specialist.
                     
                    In the sixties before N gauge got started people were talking [ the Peco publicsation ] of an 8mm gauge or OOO as half of OO -- 16.5 which was half of 32mm etc. etc.  [ 5/16 --  5/8 --  10/8 etc.  ]
                    johnclover@...
                    Dunedin   New Zealand
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: B.Rumary

                    I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains). At
                    that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms in
                    Nuremburg, such as Bing and Märklin.

                    Brian Rumary, England
                  • David Leslie Taylor
                    Dear All, Interesting though this scale discussion is, I believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone tell us a bit more about the show please?
                    Message 9 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                      Dear All,
                      Interesting though this scale discussion is, I
                      believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone
                      tell us a bit more about the show please? About the
                      layouts? Any interesting new kits to buy?
                      Not all of us were able to get there. I was
                      exhibiting elsewhere, and would love to have in a review of
                      ExpoNG, and/or a discussion about the layouts, layout
                      design etc. I'm sure our overseas members would be
                      interested as well.
                      Dave.T

                      On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 17:37:16 +1200 John Clover
                      <johnclover@...> wrote:

                      > If you go back far enough, pre 1900, you will find that each manufacturer [Europe,Britain,States] built to his own size without much thought to scale ... everything was impressionistic :-) .....it was only engineers making 'pre-production' models who bothered about scale. Greenwich Maritime Museum as an example of the professional model builders work with boats for the builder and/or owners of that period.
                      >
                      > Very few modellers were making scale models to standards such as P4 until after WWII or even later. When I compare my Triang of 1975 with Bachmann of 2002 the change is obvious. Now you can buy RTR to a higher standard than many thought of only 30/40 years ago, let alone the turn of the century and the start of the Model Engineering movement, and model trains, as opposed to toys. You have only to read early Model Engineer articles 1910/1920's to see what people obviously must have thought was 'good' ...lt was for then. There were a few making quality models since I have a Will's kit from the 70's which I didn't have the skills to build properly ... but the potential was there for the specialist.
                      >
                      > In the sixties before N gauge got started people were talking [ the Peco publicsation ] of an 8mm gauge or OOO as half of OO -- 16.5 which was half of 32mm etc. etc. [ 5/16 -- 5/8 -- 10/8 etc. ]
                      > johnclover@...
                      > Dunedin New Zealand
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: B.Rumary
                      >
                      > I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains). At
                      > that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms in
                      > Nuremburg, such as Bing and M�rklin.
                      >
                      > Brian Rumary, England
                      >

                      ----------------------
                      David Leslie Taylor
                      University of Exeter
                    • Vincent Bradley
                      If memory serves me correctly, early plastic kit manufacturers standardized box sizes and made the kits to fit. We need to remember our roots in the toy
                      Message 10 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                        If memory serves me correctly, early plastic kit manufacturers standardized
                        box
                        sizes and made the kits to fit. We need to remember our roots in the toy
                        world.
                        Vincent Bradley, 1707

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: B.Rumary [mailto:brian.rumary@...]
                        Sent: Monday, October 28, 2002 7:57 PM
                        To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Scales - 7mm and 1/4"


                        Tony Wiese wrote:

                        > Following on from the recent comments regarding the 2 scales, and without
                        wishing to start a long running debate on the matter, could someone please
                        tell
                        me whose great idea it was to mix metric and imperial units? One of the
                        first
                        things I was taught as an apprentice was never to mix metric and imperial
                        measurements on the same drawing, yet we have 2,4,7,10,16mm to the foot!
                        >
                        > In hindsight maybe it would have been better if standard ratios had been
                        chosen
                        instead, eg 1/20, 1/40, 1/80 - if nothing else it would have made re-scaling
                        drawings a bit easier in the pre-computer years!
                        >
                        I suspect it dates back to the early days of model railways (or toy trains).
                        At
                        that time much of the equipment sold in England was actually made by firms
                        in
                        Nuremburg, such as Bing and Märklin.

                        Brian Rumary, England

                        http://freespace.virgin.net/brian.rumary/homepage.htm




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                      • adriangrayfr
                        ... Trade News will have to wait until you get oyur next Association mailing I m afraid David, if only because I m still writing it up and press date is next
                        Message 11 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                          --- In 7mmnga@y..., David Leslie Taylor <DLTaylor@e...> wrote:
                          > Dear All,
                          > Interesting though this scale discussion is, I
                          > believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone
                          > tell us a bit more about the show please? About the
                          > layouts? Any interesting new kits to buy?
                          >
                          Trade News will have to wait until you get oyur next Association
                          mailing I'm afraid David, if only because I'm still writing it up and
                          press date is next week.
                          Suffice it to say that brand spnking new kits were thin on the
                          ground, with the exception of Leek & Manifold carriages from Dorset
                          Kits - excellent kits, but HUGE - almost as long as some small SG
                          carriages. NOT recommended for a 2x4 diorama!!

                          Layouts........
                          La Safre we've already raved about - but I now remember the clever
                          use of a mirror to make stock sidings look twice as full and long as
                          they really were. With that trick I could decieve myself into
                          thinking I'd already biult 100 slate wagons!!
                          Andrew Griffiths was showing Tal-y-bont which is very, some lovely FR
                          stock ex-Steve Pegler. Unfortunately displayed a bit low down for an
                          exhibition as crowded as ExpoNG, though junior friendly of course.
                          Otto Schouwstra (??) with a lovely 2ftx2ft diorama as seen in the
                          Review - Timmer brick & tile works. Stunning modelling, lovely sound
                          but all lacking in 'atmosphere', a bit stark in my opinion.
                          Chris Payne's Sutton Wharf, while 1:25 is lovely to look at. Clever
                          staging made best use of space.

                          There were some others but the boysd have arrived for toy train
                          night, I'll think on't later maybe.

                          Adrian
                        • Jack TREVES
                          You can find some pictures of Expo NG on : http://narrow-gauge.org/album/en/psubcat.aspx?ID=62 Jack TREVES http://narrow-gauge.org/zafra/English/ ... From:
                          Message 12 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                            You can find some pictures of Expo NG on :

                            http://narrow-gauge.org/album/en/psubcat.aspx?ID=62

                            Jack TREVES
                            http://narrow-gauge.org/zafra/English/

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "David Leslie Taylor" <DLTaylor@...>
                            To: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                            Cc: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 12:20 PM
                            Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Scales ExpoNG


                            Dear All,
                            Interesting though this scale discussion is, I
                            believe it began with a layout at ExpoNG. Could anyone
                            tell us a bit more about the show please? About the
                            layouts? Any interesting new kits to buy?
                            Not all of us were able to get there. I was
                            exhibiting elsewhere, and would love to have in a review of
                            ExpoNG, and/or a discussion about the layouts, layout
                            design etc. I'm sure our overseas members would be
                            interested as well.
                            Dave.T
                          • John Clover
                            One of my bees-in-the-bonnet is the selfishness of the adult railway modeller who needs the revenue from the junior visitor but prefers to build layouts at
                            Message 13 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                              One of my 'bees-in-the-bonnet' is the selfishness of the adult railway modeller who needs the revenue from the junior visitor but prefers to build layouts at eye level or way above junior's eye level.   So poor suffering parent has to lift juniors up to see the display.
                              We provide chairs for junior to stand on ...
                              But better would be low level displays and encouraging adults to sit and enjoy on the afore mentioned chairs.
                              However,  I guess impractical for the more densely populated areas of the world :-)
                              johnclover@...
                              Dunedin   New Zealand
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 7:53 AM
                              Subject: [7mmnga] Re: Scales ExpoNG

                                Unfortunately displayed a bit low down for an
                              exhibition as crowded as ExpoNG, though junior friendly of course.
                            • John Dennis
                              Jack (and all who attended)... On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:42:01 +0100, Jack TREVES ... Thanks for the photos and the descriptions. A question: is the layout in
                              Message 14 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                                Jack (and all who attended)...

                                On Tue, 29 Oct 2002 23:42:01 +0100, "Jack TREVES"
                                <jtreves@...> wrote:

                                >You can find some pictures of Expo NG on :
                                >
                                >http://narrow-gauge.org/album/en/psubcat.aspx?ID=62
                                >

                                Thanks for the photos and the descriptions. A question: is the layout
                                in Jack's photos "East Quay - Chapel Pill" really HOn2? With 7mm
                                gauge track? If so, then I "tip me hat" to them - that seems like
                                hard work to me.

                                John

                                ==========================================================
                                John Dennis jdennis@...
                                Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                                and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                                Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optushome.com.au/duttonbay
                                WebX http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
                              • Dave Balcombe
                                John Dennis wrote: A question: is the layout in Jack s photos East Quay - Chapel Pill really HOn2? With 7mm gauge track? If so, then I tip me hat to them
                                Message 15 of 19 , Oct 29, 2002
                                  John Dennis wrote:
                                  A question: is the layout in Jack's photos "East Quay - Chapel Pill" really HOn2?  With 7mm gauge track?  If so, then I "tip me hat" to them - that seems like hard work to me.
                                  John
                                  It's actually 009 (4mm to the foot on 9mm track) Not that it takes anything away from it. It's a superb layout.

                                  Regards

                                  Dave Balcombe UK

                                  Website updated 1st of every Month

                                  http://www.teetering.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

                                  Outgoing Emails are automatically checked for viruses

                                   


                                • Jack TREVES
                                  Sorry I made a mistake. For me 4mm scale on 9mm gauge should have been HOe. It is in fact Deer Creek whose scale was not in my pictures database (3.5mm on 9mm
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Oct 30, 2002
                                    Sorry I made a mistake. For me 4mm scale on 9mm gauge should have been HOe. It is in fact Deer Creek whose scale was not in my pictures database (3.5mm on 9mm gauge), I have to add it. It seems that every layout in Expo NG had its own scale : 3.5mm, 4mm, 7mm, Oe, On30, 1/35, 1/25, Gn15, ...

                                    Jack TREVES

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Dave Balcombe" <oldgoat@...>
                                    To: <7mmnga@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 2:31 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [7mmnga] Scales ExpoNG


                                    John Dennis wrote:
                                    A question: is the layout in Jack's photos "East Quay - Chapel Pill" really HOn2? With 7mm gauge track? If so, then I "tip me hat" to them - that seems like hard work to me.
                                    John

                                    It's actually 009 (4mm to the foot on 9mm track) Not that it takes anything away from it. It's a superb layout.
                                    Regards
                                  • Peter Whitehead
                                    Hi I ve added some photographs that I took at Expo, of two 7mm scale layouts. They can be found in the folder ExpoNG2002 in the Photos section of the group.
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Nov 3, 2002
                                      Hi

                                      I've added some photographs that I took at Expo, of two 7mm scale
                                      layouts. They can be found in the folder ExpoNG2002 in the Photos
                                      section of the group.

                                      Peter Whitehead
                                    • John Dennis
                                      Greetings all, Does anyone know of a source for 6 and 8 spoke, CURVED spoke wheels? I m looking for 9.5mm dia 6 spoke and 12.7mm dia 8 spoke curved spoke
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Nov 4, 2002
                                        Greetings all,

                                        Does anyone know of a source for 6 and 8 spoke, CURVED spoke
                                        wheels? I'm looking for 9.5mm dia 6 spoke and 12.7mm dia 8 spoke
                                        curved spoke wheels for with inside frame logging bogies.

                                        I have looked through the 7mm NGA sales list, but found nothing
                                        (although I can't guarantee I have read every one of the lines on this
                                        list...)

                                        Thanks in advance,
                                        John

                                        ==========================================================
                                        John Dennis jdennis@...
                                        Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                                        and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                                        Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optushome.com.au/duttonbay
                                        WebX http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
                                      • David Leslie Taylor
                                        Hi John, Alan Gibson produces curly spoke wheels, 9.5 and 12mm diameter. Not sure offhand about the number of spokes, will have to take a look. They are also
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Nov 5, 2002
                                          Hi John,
                                          Alan Gibson produces curly spoke wheels, 9.5 and
                                          12mm diameter. Not sure offhand about the number of
                                          spokes, will have to take a look. They are also stocked by
                                          S&D models. I think Roy Link does his own as well.
                                          The axle is a standard 26mm pinpoint, but you could
                                          always file the ends off, or replace it with 2mm
                                          silver-steel (from an engineering supplier).
                                          The wheels are a force fit on the axle, so could be
                                          moved to different gauges with care. Any help?
                                          Dave.T

                                          On Tue, 05 Nov 2002 15:12:15 +1100 John Dennis
                                          <jdennis@...> wrote:

                                          > Greetings all,
                                          >
                                          > Does anyone know of a source for 6 and 8 spoke, CURVED spoke
                                          > wheels? I'm looking for 9.5mm dia 6 spoke and 12.7mm dia 8 spoke
                                          > curved spoke wheels for with inside frame logging bogies.
                                          >
                                          > I have looked through the 7mm NGA sales list, but found nothing
                                          > (although I can't guarantee I have read every one of the lines on this
                                          > list...)
                                          >
                                          > Thanks in advance,
                                          > John
                                          >
                                          > ==========================================================
                                          > John Dennis jdennis@...
                                          > Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                                          > and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                                          > Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optushome.com.au/duttonbay
                                          > WebX http://members.optushome.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > 7mmnga-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                          >
                                          >

                                          ----------------------
                                          David Leslie Taylor
                                          University of Exeter
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