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Re: [7mm NGA] Re: Chassis

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  • Trevor Shaw
    John, I agree with all you say. But you said it a lot more politely than I did. I m not adopting S7 standards on my 4ft gauge because the track work has to
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 31, 2007
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      John,

      I agree with all you say. But you said it a lot more politely than I
      did. I'm not adopting S7 standards on my 4ft gauge because the track
      work has to look "rough" and I'm not sure that fine standards would be
      workable. My locos are/will be either sprung or compensated and I'm
      hoping to get away with rigid wagons because they are only 3ft 6in
      wheelbase. The first loco is only 4ft 9in wheelbase but the compensation
      should help with electrical pick-up from only 4 wheels.

      I've looked for the O-14 group on Yahoo a couple of times and been
      unable to find it. I don't know why because I can easily find all the
      other groups I belong to on the occasions when Yahoo kicks me out
      because my ISP has bounced one email.

      Best wishes,

      Trevor Shaw.

      In message <eul4q7+7obi@...>, John Clutterbuck
      <jclutterbuck2001@...> writes
      >
      >--- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "paglesham" <paglesham@...> wrote:
      >> but we are slipping into a world where nobody makes
      >> anything anyway; surely we modelmakers should try to lead the way
      >> back to a non-reliant hobby. Let's swap techniques, not suppliers in
      >> the group, the Fine Scale group.
      >>
      >
      >Martin,
      >
      >Well said - you are not a lone voice, but I fear there are not many of
      >us!
      >
      >At the risk of adding more fuel to the fire, apart from some notable
      >exceptions, I believe 7mm NG has long been a coarse scale backwater.
      >The pursuit of greater fidelity seen in other scale/gauge combinations
      >such as P4, 009 and Scale7 seems to have passed it by. I don't know
      >why this should be as to my mind it is the easiest combination to
      >produce high fidelity models.
      >
      >As you rightly point out if you want such fidelity you have to break
      >away from the reliance on adapting commercial mechanisms etc. With 7mm
      >NG it also means not relying on the Peco O-16.5 track as I feel this
      >bears little relation to any real narrow gauge track.
      >
      >However, one thing we do have is the ability to use resources from
      >both the 7mm and 4mm worlds. The latter is especially valuable for
      >chassis components.
      >
      >I model standard gauge with 2' narrow gauge so I use Scale7 and O-14
      >standards - the latter developed by Roy Link (one of the notable
      >exceptions). Although almost dead scale, they are relatively easy to
      >achieve and I get good running by using springing and/or compensation
      >using methods developed by the P4 fraternity. If you are interested in
      >2' modelling there is also an O-14 yahoo group.
      >
      >Regards
      >John
      >
      >

      --
      Trevor Shaw
    • Phil Traxson
      Well said Chris, I think your last paragraph sums up 7mm narrow gauge modelling. I would think that there are about the same percentage of 7mm narrow gauge
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 31, 2007
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        Well said Chris, I think your last paragraph sums up 7mm narrow gauge
        modelling.
        I would think that there are about the same percentage of 7mm narrow gauge
        fine scale modellers as there are fine scale modellers in in 4mm and 7mm
        standard gauge, but in our relatively small numbers will not be many. Having
        seen John Clutterbuck's, Roy Link's and some of the models which Adrian Gray
        is building (sprung F.R. bug-boxes!) it gives us all inspiration but we
        don't all have the skill or the time to reach these dizzy heights. Besides
        that woudn't it be boring if we were all the same.
        Phil T.

        -----Original Message-----
        From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
        Chris Davis
        Sent: 31 March 2007 16:52
        To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [7mm NGA] Re: Chassis


        Hi Martin
        Having de-lurked I thought I would comment on your message. I am bound
        to say that I agree with you in part. I will unashamedly give scale
        etc a firm twist of the tail (thus choosing to run both Bachman 0n-30
        and 0n-16.5 on the same layout) but I do think SOME models can suffer
        from being warped onto a standard 00 gauge chassis. My own locos are a
        mix of Bachman 0n-30 geared locos (a chassis which I couldn't get
        anywhere near matching) and others all running on either Branchlines
        or homemade chassis. To my mind, not only do I get better running but
        also a better appearance.
        And yet, it has to be said, I am far from a rivet counter. The
        capturing of the atmosphere of a narrow gauge line is far more
        important to me than anything else. But, of course, loco wheels that
        look right can contribute enormously to this appearance.
        So far as gauge is concerned I am quite happy with 16.5. I generally
        don't model 2ft prototypes and 16.5 is, for me, acceptably close to
        the many
        prototypes running on 2'3" - 2'6" - certainly far closer than 00 scale
        is to its track! And I use the Peco track out of sheer laziness except
        one point of improbable configuration that I did make myself - still
        00 gauge though! As against that, I would love to model Isle of Man
        one day in 7mm - and if I ever do - that WILL be 21mm track.
        So, I think you are quite right that we should be sharing techniques -
        but not INSTEAD of suppliers. After all, this association is for all
        who model in 7mm scale "or thereabouts". For many, for any number of
        reasons which in their specific case are excellent, suppliers are the
        key to providing them with what they want on what is, after all, their
        railway.
        Chris






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Bruce Wilson
        ... Trevor: try here of O-14 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14 - Bruce Wilson Barrie, Ontario Life Member NMRA Member Gauge 0 Guild Member Scale 7
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 1, 2007
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          At 18:18 31/03/2007, you wrote:

          >John,
          >
          >snipped....
          >I've looked for the O-14 group on Yahoo a couple of times and been
          >unable to find it. I don't know why because I can easily find all the
          >other groups I belong to on the occasions when Yahoo kicks me out
          >because my ISP has bounced one email.
          >
          >Best wishes,
          >
          >Trevor Shaw.


          Trevor:

          try here of O-14

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/O-14


          -
          Bruce Wilson
          Barrie, Ontario
          Life Member NMRA Member Gauge 0 Guild Member Scale 7 Group


          --
          No virus found in this outgoing message.
          Checked by AVG Free Edition.
          Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.24/741 - Release Date: 31/03/2007 20:54
        • John Clutterbuck
          ... Trevor, I understand your point of view, however I wonder whether you can still achieve the rough look with S7 standards. The critical aspects which need
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 2, 2007
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            --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Shaw <trevor.shaw@...> wrote:
            >
            > I'm not adopting S7 standards on my 4ft gauge because the track
            > work has to look "rough" and I'm not sure that fine standards
            > would be workable. My locos are/will be either sprung or compensated
            > and I'm hoping to get away with rigid wagons because they are only
            > 3ft 6in wheelbase.

            Trevor,

            I understand your point of view, however I wonder whether you can
            still achieve the rough look with S7 standards. The critical aspects
            which need to be maintained are the back to back, check to flange and
            flangeway dimensions. With allowance for the gauge S7 and O-14 are
            almost identical in this respect. If good running can be achieved on
            the latter, with featherweight rolling stock on unbelievably tight
            curves then I would have thought 4' would be no problem. However the
            wagons might benefit from springing or compensation.

            Are you by any chance building a model of the Redruth and Chasewater
            railway? I come from Cornwall originally and still have my copy of the
            definitive history bought from Mr. D.B. Barton himself at his bookshop
            in Truro for the princely sum of 12/6.

            Regards
            John
          • woodcockdavid
            Trevor 1) I have just joined the O-14 group (having only just heard of its existence) and had no problems, so good luck and hopefully welcome. 2) I
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 2, 2007
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              Trevor

              1) I have just joined the O-14 group (having only just heard of its existence) and had no
              problems, so good luck and hopefully welcome.

              2) I "compensate" my 4-wheel (uncoupled) diesels in O-14 by mounting the (fixed)
              bearings as close in together as I can, bearing in mind that each axle carries a gear wheel
              driven by worms on a cardan shaft, so the real chassis is rather like an O-9 one with
              extended axles for 14mm gauge. Recently-built chassis have then had dummy frames
              fixed outside the real ones (which carry the bearings) made of copper-clad paxolin with
              the copper on the outside (but of course still inside the wheel backs) where it provides an
              ideal base for soldering on the current collectors - I use 0.33mm hard brass wire bent to
              loop round the top of the wheel tyres which adds a miniscule spinging effect. The
              "compensation" works because there is an inevitable tolerance between axle and bearing
              which allows each axle to take up an optimum load-bearing position. This all sounds far
              more complicated than it actually is in practice - but it works perfectly, giving excellent
              pick-up and traction together with that sure-footedness that those d*** 4WD people are
              always talking about. The point of this is that I reckon you could effectively compensate
              your short-wheelbase 4-wheel wagons just by moving the bearings in a bit (if they are
              inside-bearing anyway) or by providing working inside bearings (and cosmetic outside) if
              the prototype had outside axleboxes. If, with 4ft gauge, this makes the wagons feel
              unsteady, try just moving the bearings in on one axle.

              3)Just for completeness I will add that if the driving wheels are coupled then I use real 3-
              point compensation (the new High-Level bearings look very promising for this but I
              haven't actually used them yet) or even springing (using those ancient Maygib plastic
              hornblocks that can often be picked up for a song but can be made to work well in our
              scale - the trick is to drill and pin them to the frame and not to just rely on glue).

              David Woodcock (81)
              Brighton
            • adriangrayfr
              ... gauge ... narrow gauge ... and 7mm ... many. Having ... Adrian Gray ... but we ... Besides ... Flattered as I am to be put up alongside Roy and John and
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 2, 2007
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                --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Phil Traxson" <phil@...> wrote:
                >
                > Well said Chris, I think your last paragraph sums up 7mm narrow
                gauge
                > modelling.
                > I would think that there are about the same percentage of 7mm
                narrow gauge
                > fine scale modellers as there are fine scale modellers in in 4mm
                and 7mm
                > standard gauge, but in our relatively small numbers will not be
                many. Having
                > seen John Clutterbuck's, Roy Link's and some of the models which
                Adrian Gray
                > is building (sprung F.R. bug-boxes!) it gives us all inspiration
                but we
                > don't all have the skill or the time to reach these dizzy heights.
                Besides
                > that woudn't it be boring if we were all the same.
                > Phil T.
                >
                Flattered as I am to be put up alongside Roy and John and broadly
                agreeing with Phil's points I would, however, take issue with his
                statements about skill and time.

                Anyone, and I DO mean anyone, setting out to build a model can
                produce results to be proud of.
                Some of it is in the mind.
                Quite a few years ago I bought a rivet press from my friend Tony
                Reynalds - he of the exquisite and expensive 7mm SG engines. The
                press is, in every respect, identical to the one Tony himself uses in
                his workshop.
                A little while later, planning to use the press on a kit with a lot
                of rivets I decided that I would work to the highest standards I
                could while using it - I had come to the conclusion that, with the
                same tools I should be able to get equally good results!
                This simple thought changed my whole approach to my modelling - no
                longer would 'near enough' be 'good enough', I would do all in my
                power to do things properly.
                Within a very short space of time I found I WAS working to a higher
                standard - the kit upon which I started my new regime won me an
                Association trophy at my first entry - and it did not take any more
                time to work carefully, with a proper plan and to scale - which
                rather scuppers the comment about time.

                Having proved to myself that I was capable of decent work I found I
                was getting much more satisfaction out of my modelling, because the
                results were what I had hoped to achieve in the first place, rather
                than falling short - something that one can always see, if one is
                honest with oneself. However, one must always recognise that 'room
                for improvement' is part of the learning process.

                Unfortunately my modelling progress has suffered a signifcant setback
                over the last couple of years as I've had to get to grips with a
                completely different perspective on things, literally, following
                cataract operations. But, hey, that is just a different learning
                curve - if only it wasn't distorted!!

                Oh, yes......sprung Bugboxes.....being short, wide and 4whl they lend
                themselves pefectly to the fitting of components intended for 4mm
                scale wagons....another of my good friend just happens to be Mike
                Clark, proprietor of Masokits and supplier of everything anyone needs
                to turn their model into Zebedee!! I also gave my models sprung
                buffers and sprung couplings, in an attempt to reproduce the
                characteristics of the prototypes.......then I went and got the
                liveries wrong!!!

                Adrian
                They're coming to take me away,
                ha ha,
                They're coming to take me away!!!!!
              • Trevor Shaw
                Hello John, Thanks for your interest. I thought I d indicated what I am modelling in my first mail on the subject but I must have dreamed it. The basis of the
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 2, 2007
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                  Hello John,

                  Thanks for your interest. I thought I'd indicated what I am modelling in
                  my first mail on the subject but I must have dreamed it. The basis of
                  the model is the Saundersfoot Coal and Harbour Company. This company
                  operated a network of anthracite mines served by a 4ft gauge tramway in
                  south Pembrokeshire. The anthracite was mainly exported to the rest of
                  UK by sea from Saundersfoot harbour. It was highly valued by maltsters
                  because its very low sulphur content meant that the malt was not tainted
                  by sulphur dioxide.

                  From this basis, my model is more than somewhat freelanced. I have
                  authentic "coal trams" from my own etched kits and an almost authentic
                  Manning Wardle D-Class 0-4-0ST loco cut down to clear some of the low
                  tunnels near Saundersfoot. (It's "almost" authentic because it uses
                  parts from a Slater's Manning Wardle F-Class kit, a slightly bigger loco
                  than the D-Class.)

                  The real coal trams were unsprung. The axles simply ran in what I would
                  call trunnions bolted to the underside of wooden or angle iron
                  underframes and the bodies were sheet iron riveted together. They were
                  probably made by the colliery blacksmith. All had end doors for tipping
                  into the coasters in Saundersfoot harbour.

                  The turnouts mostly have hinged stub points and a short section of rail
                  that swings at the crossing. So there are no flangeways. There are two
                  exceptions, which are 3-way stub switched points. I copped out on
                  working these with swing rail crossings. There are no records of point
                  and crossing work on the Saundersfoot Railway. My fiction is that since
                  it first opened as a horse worked tramway in 1834 and purchased its
                  first steam loco in 1874 (MW D-Class above), the original stock might
                  well have had double flanged wheels, which necessitated swing rail
                  crossings, and these persisted into locomotive worked days.

                  The Saundersfoot Railway had a rope worked incline from early days and I
                  have also incorporated a table incline because I have always wanted a
                  table incline. (It's my train set.) This is based on an underground
                  table incline in the Rhossydd slate quarry near Blaennau Ffestiniog and
                  the three way points feed the three tracks on the table.

                  Finally, I don't know enough about ships to be able to deliver my
                  anthracite to ship models, so my version of Saundersfoot harbour is a
                  couple of standard gauge sidings that the coal trams are tipped into.

                  Don't sit on the edge of your seat waiting for all of this appearing on
                  the exhibition circuit. It's going to take me years, but it's my
                  retirement project. It's all planned within 8ft x 2ft 6in with no
                  external fiddle yards and will fit into the back of my Zafira. So long
                  as neither the Zafira nor I meet our maker too soon, I intend to
                  exhibit. Scratchbuilding and exhibiting are the things I enjoy most
                  about this wonderful hobby.

                  Best wishes. Apologies if I've bored many with this long diatribe. I
                  sometimes get carried away by my enthusiasm for this project.

                  In message <Euqfb1+u6ct@...>, John Clutterbuck
                  <jclutterbuck2001@...> writes
                  >
                  >--- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Shaw <trevor.shaw@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> I'm not adopting S7 standards on my 4ft gauge because the track
                  >> work has to look "rough" and I'm not sure that fine standards
                  >> would be workable. My locos are/will be either sprung or compensated
                  >> and I'm hoping to get away with rigid wagons because they are only
                  >> 3ft 6in wheelbase.
                  >
                  >Trevor,
                  >
                  >I understand your point of view, however I wonder whether you can
                  >still achieve the rough look with S7 standards. The critical aspects
                  >which need to be maintained are the back to back, check to flange and
                  >flangeway dimensions. With allowance for the gauge S7 and O-14 are
                  >almost identical in this respect. If good running can be achieved on
                  >the latter, with featherweight rolling stock on unbelievably tight
                  >curves then I would have thought 4' would be no problem. However the
                  >wagons might benefit from springing or compensation.
                  >
                  >Are you by any chance building a model of the Redruth and Chasewater
                  >railway? I come from Cornwall originally and still have my copy of the
                  >definitive history bought from Mr. D.B. Barton himself at his bookshop
                  >in Truro for the princely sum of 12/6.
                  >
                  >Regards
                  >John
                  >
                  >

                  --
                  Trevor Shaw
                • Phil Traxson
                  Just for those who may be interested, it is possible to walk quite a lot of the Saundersfoot Tramway as it has been tarmacked and is a coastal footpath, even
                  Message 8 of 23 , Apr 2, 2007
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                    Just for those who may be interested, it is possible to walk quite a lot of
                    the Saundersfoot Tramway as it has been tarmacked and is a coastal footpath,
                    even through the tunnels. I did this myself whilst on holiday last year, and
                    even the non-railway members of the family enjoyed it, the views are
                    stunning. The walk turns inland at Wisemans Bridge through woodland and the
                    track becomes rough for a while, walkable but not wheelchair friendly. The
                    path eventually comes out at the village of Stepaside near the main road
                    back to Saundersfoot and Tenby. It is a good half days wander, longer if you
                    keep hopping off the path to look at the old bridges that carry the
                    footpath/tramway over streams etc., and then there is the pub at Wisemans
                    Bridge------- There is a very useful leaflet available from the tourist
                    information centre in Saundersfoot which gives a map and potted history of
                    the Tramway and the industries it served.

                    Phil T.
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                    Trevor Shaw
                    Sent: 03 April 2007 01:53
                    To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Re: Chassis


                    Hello John,

                    Thanks for your interest. I thought I'd indicated what I am modelling in
                    my first mail on the subject but I must have dreamed it. The basis of
                    the model is the Saundersfoot Coal and Harbour Company. This company
                    operated a network of anthracite mines served by a 4ft gauge tramway in
                    south Pembrokeshire. The anthracite was mainly exported to the rest of
                    UK by sea from Saundersfoot harbour. It was highly valued by maltsters
                    because its very low sulphur content meant that the malt was not tainted
                    by sulphur dioxide.

                    From this basis, my model is more than somewhat freelanced. I have
                    authentic "coal trams" from my own etched kits and an almost authentic
                    Manning Wardle D-Class 0-4-0ST loco cut down to clear some of the low
                    tunnels near Saundersfoot. (It's "almost" authentic because it uses
                    parts from a Slater's Manning Wardle F-Class kit, a slightly bigger loco
                    than the D-Class.)

                    The real coal trams were unsprung. The axles simply ran in what I would
                    call trunnions bolted to the underside of wooden or angle iron
                    underframes and the bodies were sheet iron riveted together. They were
                    probably made by the colliery blacksmith. All had end doors for tipping
                    into the coasters in Saundersfoot harbour.

                    The turnouts mostly have hinged stub points and a short section of rail
                    that swings at the crossing. So there are no flangeways. There are two
                    exceptions, which are 3-way stub switched points. I copped out on
                    working these with swing rail crossings. There are no records of point
                    and crossing work on the Saundersfoot Railway. My fiction is that since
                    it first opened as a horse worked tramway in 1834 and purchased its
                    first steam loco in 1874 (MW D-Class above), the original stock might
                    well have had double flanged wheels, which necessitated swing rail
                    crossings, and these persisted into locomotive worked days.

                    The Saundersfoot Railway had a rope worked incline from early days and I
                    have also incorporated a table incline because I have always wanted a
                    table incline. (It's my train set.) This is based on an underground
                    table incline in the Rhossydd slate quarry near Blaennau Ffestiniog and
                    the three way points feed the three tracks on the table.

                    Finally, I don't know enough about ships to be able to deliver my
                    anthracite to ship models, so my version of Saundersfoot harbour is a
                    couple of standard gauge sidings that the coal trams are tipped into.

                    Don't sit on the edge of your seat waiting for all of this appearing on
                    the exhibition circuit. It's going to take me years, but it's my
                    retirement project. It's all planned within 8ft x 2ft 6in with no
                    external fiddle yards and will fit into the back of my Zafira. So long
                    as neither the Zafira nor I meet our maker too soon, I intend to
                    exhibit. Scratchbuilding and exhibiting are the things I enjoy most
                    about this wonderful hobby.

                    Best wishes. Apologies if I've bored many with this long diatribe. I
                    sometimes get carried away by my enthusiasm for this project.

                    In message <Euqfb1+u6ct@...>, John Clutterbuck
                    <jclutterbuck2001@...> writes
                    >
                    >--- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Shaw <trevor.shaw@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> I'm not adopting S7 standards on my 4ft gauge because the track
                    >> work has to look "rough" and I'm not sure that fine standards
                    >> would be workable. My locos are/will be either sprung or compensated
                    >> and I'm hoping to get away with rigid wagons because they are only
                    >> 3ft 6in wheelbase.
                    >
                    >Trevor,
                    >
                    >I understand your point of view, however I wonder whether you can
                    >still achieve the rough look with S7 standards. The critical aspects
                    >which need to be maintained are the back to back, check to flange and
                    >flangeway dimensions. With allowance for the gauge S7 and O-14 are
                    >almost identical in this respect. If good running can be achieved on
                    >the latter, with featherweight rolling stock on unbelievably tight
                    >curves then I would have thought 4' would be no problem. However the
                    >wagons might benefit from springing or compensation.
                    >
                    >Are you by any chance building a model of the Redruth and Chasewater
                    >railway? I come from Cornwall originally and still have my copy of the
                    >definitive history bought from Mr. D.B. Barton himself at his bookshop
                    >in Truro for the princely sum of 12/6.
                    >
                    >Regards
                    >John
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    Trevor Shaw





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • John Clutterbuck
                    ... I completely agree with you Adrian. I also am flattered to be put in such exalted company but if this is the case then this also proves anyone can do it.
                    Message 9 of 23 , Apr 3, 2007
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                      --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "adriangrayfr" <adrian@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Anyone, and I DO mean anyone, setting out to build a model can
                      > produce results to be proud of.

                      I completely agree with you Adrian. I also am flattered to be put
                      in such exalted company but if this is the case then this also proves
                      anyone can do it.

                      When I started my big lifetime project (over 15 years ago) I decided
                      to try and produce something better than I had hitherto. As part of
                      this I decided to try and work to the best standards I could, which
                      for me meant O-14 and S7. Because I tried, I found I learnt new skills
                      and started producing better results - and it all ran so much better
                      too. New tools such as a riveter (GW Models) and a mini mill/lathe
                      helped a bit but not so much as having the aspirations and persistence
                      to see them through.

                      I also agree that if you are clear at the outset what you want to
                      achieve and how you are going to do it, then it takes little extra
                      time to achieve results you can be truly proud of.

                      Regards
                      John
                    • Frank Sharp
                      ... From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Trevor Shaw Finally, I don t know enough about ships to be able to deliver my
                      Message 10 of 23 , Apr 3, 2007
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                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Trevor Shaw
                        Finally, I don't know enough about ships to be able to deliver my
                        anthracite to ship models, so my version of Saundersfoot harbour is a
                        couple of standard gauge sidings that the coal trams are tipped into.

                        Trevor,



                        There are a series of books by Waine on coastal shipping, should you change
                        your mind. There are at least two 'kits' which you could use.



                        I've got the Langley Puffer, four worked in South Wales for a very short
                        time, and a couple at least worked North Wales, I've carved out the hold and
                        the engine room, and in among I'm fitting it out. It will be delivering
                        those yellow Ruabon bricks that were extensively used as 'trim' around North
                        Wales.



                        The other is 1:48 scale, and it is SS Talacre, which was specifically a
                        collier. It, and the Talacre colliery (on the Dee I think) were owned by the
                        same people who owned Dinorwic quarries. It is a Caldercraft kit, seems much
                        respected in the boat fraternity, but it will want a lot doing to it to
                        bring it up to decent model railway standards.



                        Frank



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Trevor Shaw
                        Phil, I almost added info on the trackbed walk to my rather long essay last night but decided I d already gone on long enough. On the way through the woods
                        Message 11 of 23 , Apr 3, 2007
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                          Phil,

                          I almost added info on the trackbed walk to my rather long essay last
                          night but decided I'd already gone on long enough.

                          On the way through the woods between Wiseman's Bridge and Stepaside
                          there are still a few stone blocks that used to carry the rails and when
                          you get to Stepaside, what a fantastic load of industrial archeology is
                          there.

                          On the level ground between the river and the steep valley side and
                          built into the valley side itself is the remains of an iron works -- the
                          casting house, blowing engine house, boiler house and a range of
                          workshops on the flat land, then four blast furnaces built into the
                          valley side, a number of lime kilns above them.

                          All levels of the works are served by the tramway via trackbeds you can
                          still walk from Kilgetty which is about half a mile further up the
                          valley. The lower branch runs to the tops of the blast furnaces/bottoms
                          of the lime kilns and a further branch runs past the tops of the lime
                          kilns then onwards and upwards, via a rope worked incline, to Grove
                          Colliery where several buildings still remain. All is more or less in
                          ruins but everything is still "readable". This must come close to being
                          the best, relatively unknown industrial site in UK.

                          There are two books available describing this industrial empire, both by
                          M R C Price. The better one is "Industrial Saundersfoot", Gomer Press,
                          1982, ISBN 0 85088 866 2. The second, which I can't lay my hands on just
                          now, is in the Oakwood Press Locomotive Papers series and may be easier
                          to find second hand.

                          My wife and I have spent 3 or 4 holidays in Saundersfoot or Tenby. I can
                          also recommend The pub at Wiseman's Bridge. We especially enjoyed it
                          late on a warm September afternoon when you can sit outside and look
                          down the shoreline towards Saundersfoot and watch the sun go down.

                          Best wishes,

                          Trevor.

                          In message <ILEFKAKMINFMLOEAPFMACECBCEAA.phil@...>, Phil
                          Traxson <phil@...> writes
                          >Just for those who may be interested, it is possible to walk quite a
                          >lot of
                          >the Saundersfoot Tramway as it has been tarmacked and is a coastal
                          >footpath,
                          >even through the tunnels. I did this myself whilst on holiday last
                          >year, and
                          >even the non-railway members of the family enjoyed it, the views are
                          >stunning. The walk turns inland at Wisemans Bridge through woodland and
                          >the
                          >track becomes rough for a while, walkable but not wheelchair friendly.
                          >The
                          >path eventually comes out at the village of Stepaside near the main
                          >road
                          >back to Saundersfoot and Tenby. It is a good half days wander, longer
                          >if you
                          >keep hopping off the path to look at the old bridges that carry the
                          >footpath/tramway over streams etc., and then there is the pub at
                          >Wisemans
                          >Bridge------- There is a very useful leaflet available from the tourist
                          >information centre in Saundersfoot which gives a map and potted history
                          >of
                          >the Tramway and the industries it served.
                          >Phil T.
                          >-----Original Message-----
                          >From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf
                          >Of
                          >Trevor Shaw
                          >Sent: 03 April 2007 01:53
                          >To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Re: Chassis
                          >Hello John,
                          >Thanks for your interest. I thought I'd indicated what I am modelling
                          >in
                          >my first mail on the subject but I must have dreamed it. The basis of
                          >the model is the Saundersfoot Coal and Harbour Company. This company
                          >operated a network of anthracite mines served by a 4ft gauge tramway in
                          >south Pembrokeshire. The anthracite was mainly exported to the rest of
                          >UK by sea from Saundersfoot harbour. It was highly valued by maltsters
                          >because its very low sulphur content meant that the malt was not
                          >tainted
                          >by sulphur dioxide.
                          >
                          >From this basis, my model is more than somewhat freelanced. I have
                          >authentic "coal trams" from my own etched kits and an almost authentic
                          >Manning Wardle D-Class 0-4-0ST loco cut down to clear some of the low
                          >tunnels near Saundersfoot. (It's "almost" authentic because it uses
                          >parts from a Slater's Manning Wardle F-Class kit, a slightly bigger
                          >loco
                          >than the D-Class.)
                          >The real coal trams were unsprung. The axles simply ran in what I would
                          >call trunnions bolted to the underside of wooden or angle iron
                          >underframes and the bodies were sheet iron riveted together. They were
                          >probably made by the colliery blacksmith. All had end doors for tipping
                          >into the coasters in Saundersfoot harbour.
                          >
                          >The turnouts mostly have hinged stub points and a short section of rail
                          >that swings at the crossing. So there are no flangeways. There are two
                          >exceptions, which are 3-way stub switched points. I copped out on
                          >working these with swing rail crossings. There are no records of point
                          >and crossing work on the Saundersfoot Railway. My fiction is that since
                          >it first opened as a horse worked tramway in 1834 and purchased its
                          >first steam loco in 1874 (MW D-Class above), the original stock might
                          >well have had double flanged wheels, which necessitated swing rail
                          >crossings, and these persisted into locomotive worked days.
                          >The Saundersfoot Railway had a rope worked incline from early days and
                          >I
                          >have also incorporated a table incline because I have always wanted a
                          >table incline. (It's my train set.) This is based on an underground
                          >table incline in the Rhossydd slate quarry near Blaennau Ffestiniog and
                          >the three way points feed the three tracks on the table.
                          >Finally, I don't know enough about ships to be able to deliver my
                          >anthracite to ship models, so my version of Saundersfoot harbour is a
                          >couple of standard gauge sidings that the coal trams are tipped into.
                          >Don't sit on the edge of your seat waiting for all of this appearing on
                          >the exhibition circuit. It's going to take me years, but it's my
                          >retirement project. It's all planned within 8ft x 2ft 6in with no
                          >external fiddle yards and will fit into the back of my Zafira. So long
                          >as neither the Zafira nor I meet our maker too soon, I intend to
                          >exhibit. Scratchbuilding and exhibiting are the things I enjoy most
                          >about this wonderful hobby.
                          >Best wishes. Apologies if I've bored many with this long diatribe. I
                          >sometimes get carried away by my enthusiasm for this project.
                          >
                          >In message <Euqfb1+u6ct@...>, John Clutterbuck
                          ><jclutterbuck2001@...> writes
                          >>
                          >>--- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Trevor Shaw <trevor.shaw@...> wrote:
                          >>>
                          >>> I'm not adopting S7 standards on my 4ft gauge because the track
                          >>> work has to look "rough" and I'm not sure that fine standards
                          >>> would be workable. My locos are/will be either sprung or compensated
                          >>> and I'm hoping to get away with rigid wagons because they are only
                          >>> 3ft 6in wheelbase.
                          >>
                          >>Trevor,
                          >>
                          >>I understand your point of view, however I wonder whether you can
                          >>still achieve the rough look with S7 standards. The critical aspects
                          >>which need to be maintained are the back to back, check to flange and
                          >>flangeway dimensions. With allowance for the gauge S7 and O-14 are
                          >>almost identical in this respect. If good running can be achieved on
                          >>the latter, with featherweight rolling stock on unbelievably tight
                          >>curves then I would have thought 4' would be no problem. However the
                          >>wagons might benefit from springing or compensation.
                          >>
                          >>Are you by any chance building a model of the Redruth and Chasewater
                          >>railway? I come from Cornwall originally and still have my copy of the
                          >>definitive history bought from Mr. D.B. Barton himself at his bookshop
                          >>in Truro for the princely sum of 12/6.
                          >>
                          >>Regards
                          >>John
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >--
                          >Trevor Shaw
                          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >

                          --
                          Trevor Shaw
                        • Trevor Shaw
                          Frank, Thanks for pointing out those ship kits. If I had a bit more room, I might have a serious look at building a ship. But I have an ambition to exhibit the
                          Message 12 of 23 , Apr 3, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Frank,

                            Thanks for pointing out those ship kits. If I had a bit more room, I
                            might have a serious look at building a ship. But I have an ambition to
                            exhibit the layout when it is built and I don't want the hassle of
                            hiring a van to carry it around. So, it has to fit into a smallish MPV.
                            Also, did you know that you can't hire a van after you are 70? I'll be
                            almost that age by the time this project is finished -- older if I don't
                            stop spending my modelling time building club layouts.

                            Also, delivering the anthracite to railway wagons has another advantage.
                            I can tip the coal trams into standard gauge wagons (8-10 trams per
                            wagon) and then move the wagons off scene to be replaced with empties.

                            So, wagons it is. POWsides do a kit for a Bonneville Coal Co wagon, one
                            of the collieries in the Saundersfoot group. Another bonus.

                            Best wishes,

                            Trevor.

                            In message <000001c775d7$1965f840$d4e11252@FJSDESKTOP>, Frank Sharp
                            <robertfairlie@...> writes
                            >-----Original Message-----
                            >From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                            >Of
                            >Trevor Shaw
                            >Finally, I don't know enough about ships to be able to deliver my
                            >anthracite to ship models, so my version of Saundersfoot harbour is a
                            >couple of standard gauge sidings that the coal trams are tipped into.
                            >Trevor,
                            >
                            >There are a series of books by Waine on coastal shipping, should you
                            >change
                            >your mind. There are at least two 'kits' which you could use.
                            >I've got the Langley Puffer, four worked in South Wales for a very
                            >short
                            >time, and a couple at least worked North Wales, I've carved out the
                            >hold and
                            >the engine room, and in among I'm fitting it out. It will be delivering
                            >those yellow Ruabon bricks that were extensively used as 'trim' around
                            >North
                            >Wales.
                            >
                            >The other is 1:48 scale, and it is SS Talacre, which was specifically a
                            >collier. It, and the Talacre colliery (on the Dee I think) were owned
                            >by the
                            >same people who owned Dinorwic quarries. It is a Caldercraft kit, seems
                            >much
                            >respected in the boat fraternity, but it will want a lot doing to it to
                            >bring it up to decent model railway standards.
                            >Frank
                            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >

                            --
                            Trevor Shaw
                          • Chris
                            ... SNIP ... specifically a ... owned by the ... seems much ... it to ... required to make it aceptable. ... I made changes to the kit for 2 reasons, to
                            Message 13 of 23 , Apr 4, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Frank Sharp" <robertfairlie@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              SNIP>
                              >
                              > The other is 1:48 scale, and it is SS Talacre, which was
                              specifically a
                              > collier. It, and the Talacre colliery (on the Dee I think) were
                              owned by the
                              > same people who owned Dinorwic quarries. It is a Caldercraft kit,
                              seems much
                              > respected in the boat fraternity, but it will want a lot doing to
                              it to
                              > bring it up to decent model railway standards.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Frank
                              >
                              > Acually I have put together Talacre and not to much extra work is
                              required to make it aceptable.
                              >
                              I made changes to the kit for 2 reasons, to improve the realism and
                              to make it more like a New Zealand ship. The kit is quite different
                              to Railway kits You will have to do a lot of cutting and triming to
                              get parts to fit and fitting can be tricky as verticals are not
                              always at right angles to the deck. The pre printed wood parts are
                              horrible in my opinion, I replced the decking with a Micro-mark
                              scale decking about $US6.95 a sheet, I used 2 sheets but made most
                              of the decks wooden. I used Evergreen v grooved styrene sheet for
                              the bridge structure and made the bridge enclosed per NZ practice. I
                              lined the visible insides of the GRP hull with plain styrene and
                              added some ribbing. The combined wood and cast capping I replaced
                              with U styrene channel. I also modelled the hold open so I faked up
                              some sort of interior. I also picked up a couple of cast lifeboats
                              to replace the ones supplied. The important thing is the plan is
                              your best friend and you should check against it constantly. In all
                              a real modelling challange but well worth the finished results.
                              >
                            • Martin Field
                              David, thanks for that. It answers my vague compensation questions nicely. I ll try it when I start wagon building. Cheers, Martin ... All New Yahoo! Mail –
                              Message 14 of 23 , Apr 4, 2007
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                                David, thanks for that. It answers my vague compensation questions nicely. I'll try it when I start wagon building.
                                Cheers, Martin


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                              • Martin Field
                                Adrian, Oh well said indeed. If I knew how to work this thing better, I d save your letter and put it all over the place. You have encapsulated the reasons I
                                Message 15 of 23 , Apr 4, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Adrian, Oh well said indeed. If I knew how to work this thing better, I'd save your letter and put it all over the place. You have encapsulated the reasons I believe people should stretch themselves to scratchbuild. For the sheer pleasure of doing better work and being truly original. Please join us on Scratchbuildersall group. Your views would help a lot of people. May I say to the group generally that this digest is the best, by far, that I've read on any group. I'm glad I joined 7mmnga. Martin

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                                • Trevor Shaw
                                  Martin, I ve lost your reference to the scratchbuilders site. Would you kindly give it to me again? Thanks, Trevor. In message
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Apr 4, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Martin,

                                    I've lost your reference to the scratchbuilders site. Would you kindly
                                    give it to me again?

                                    Thanks,

                                    Trevor.

                                    In message <500253.75154.qm@...>, Martin Field
                                    <paglesham@...> writes
                                    >
                                    >Adrian, Oh well said indeed. If I knew how to work this thing better,
                                    >I'd save your letter and put it all over the place. You have
                                    >encapsulated the reasons I believe people should stretch themselves to
                                    >scratchbuild. For the sheer pleasure of doing better work and being
                                    >truly original. Please join us on Scratchbuildersall group. Your views
                                    >would help a lot of people. May I say to the group generally that this
                                    >digest is the best, by far, that I've read on any group. I'm glad I
                                    >joined 7mmnga. Martin
                                    >
                                    >---------------------------------
                                    >Inbox full of unwanted email? Get leading protection and 1GB storage
                                    >with All New Yahoo! Mail.
                                    >
                                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >

                                    --
                                    Trevor Shaw
                                  • Martin Field
                                    Hi Trevor, This should get you to Scratchbuildersall, I hope. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Scratchbuildersall Cheers, Martin ... New Yahoo! Mail is the
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Apr 6, 2007
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                                      Hi Trevor, This should get you to Scratchbuildersall, I hope. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Scratchbuildersall Cheers, Martin

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