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RE: [7mm NGA] Brass kits. super glue or solder

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  • Russell J Postlewaight
    Hi Paul Wordy, but right on the money! CLEAN, PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE are definitely the keywords. Russell Wellington NZ From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 22, 2012
      Hi Paul

      Wordy, but right on the money!
      CLEAN, PRACTICE AND MORE PRACTICE are definitely the keywords.

      Russell
      Wellington NZ

      From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Paul Martin
      Sent: Friday, 22 June 2012 10:41 p.m.
      To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [7mm NGA] Brass kits. super glue or solder


      James,

      I suggest you ignore all this coco cola, cored solder hocus pocus. It may
      well work for the people proclaiming it but it's not the most
      straightforward way of getting a soldered joint and is quite likely to lead
      to frustration and anger for the first time user without the knack. I am not
      saying it won't work but much of it is the rambling tales of old wives. They
      all seem to have missed on key factor to your success PRACTICE, PRACTICE and
      more PRACTICE

      Here are a couple of suggestions for progressing and learning to solder
      brass kits as a beginner.

      1. Get yourself some 145 degree solder. Many model shops sell it. I
      have it in stock.

      2. Get yourself some Powerflow plumbers flux from B&Q (other large
      sheds of DIY stuff are available). It comes in yellow pots. Eileens, Squires
      and the like sell it but at a hobby store premium. A proper plumbers
      merchant would likely be the cheapest source

      3. Get yourself a fibreglass brush. The Polirods that I and the 7mm
      NGA sold would be ideal but they are now pretty much sold out. The 7mm NGA
      bought a massive end of stock quantity 15+ years ago and they finally ran
      out.

      4. For the kits you are doing pretty much any iron will do but buying
      a decent 25W or larger iron is a sound investment. If you are determined to
      make a go of soldering then a temperature controlled iron is a sound
      investment.

      5. Practice on the scrap frets in the kits. Don't make your first
      joint delicate bit A to fragile part B

      Clean both bits of metal that are to be joined with you fibreglass brush.
      Make the metal shiny. Do it just before soldering.

      Coat the surfaces with the flux. Use a cocktail stick to spread it thinly.
      You need less than you think.

      Tin the end of the iron. That is to say clean it on a wet sponge, touch it
      in the flux, touch it on the solder, it should pick some solder up on the
      tip. If it doesn't repeat the cleaning and fluxing and if it's really dirty
      on the tip abrade it with the fibreglass brush and then clean it, flux it
      and tin it.

      Now put your two bits of flux coated etch together, aligned how you want
      them and then touch the edge with the iron to transfer heat. The flux will
      fizz and as the etch comes up to the right temperature the solder on the tip
      will flow into the joint.

      Remove the iron and let the work cool down. You will see the surface of the
      solder change as it solidifies. You can let go once that happens.

      Clean the flux off

      Clean surplus solder off.

      Practice this with bits that are flat to flat, edge to flat and edge to
      edge. Make yourself a right angle corner out of two pieces of scrap and
      watch the solder flow up the joint by capillary action

      Soldering with this setup is almost like painting. You can just wipe the
      solder on with the tip of the iron. This will do you for 100% of the kits
      you are asking about and will do you for about 95% of much more complex kits
      and if you follow these guidelines you'll have learnt that additional 5% by
      the time you are ready for the complex kit.

      VARIATIONS & SUGGESTIONS...

      With some parts it's easier to tin both parts to coat them with solder
      before joining them. Do just as you did above but without the parts being
      together to get solder to flow on to each surface. The put the two parts
      together and just apply heat so the solder on both parts melts fuses
      together. Remove the heat and wait for it to cool.

      Clean surplus solder out of joints with a selection of file, scrapers (mini
      screwdrivers sharpened to a blade) or gravers (bits of tool steel
      sharpened). Do it after each joint. Don't convince yourself you'll go back
      and do it later, you won't.

      Clean the flux off regularly and at the end of every work session. Done when
      fresh it runs off like butter off a hot knife if you run it under the tap.
      If you leave it overnight you'll need aggression and bad language to shift
      it! It is quite an aggressive flux which if it remained so for a long period
      would eat your central heating (that's what it's really made for assembling
      of course) so it is designed such that after it has been heated to turn
      itself in to a hard and inert crust you will need chisel to remove.

      Finally clean it with a bit of home chemistry. The flux is basically an acid
      and CIF cream cleaner is basically alkali so give it a final scrub in hot
      water and CIF to neutralise and clean it. An old tooth brush helps

      SOME DON'TS

      Don't use cored electrical solder. There is a clue in its name as to why
      not. It is designed to have good electrical characteristics more than it
      is designed to be a free flowing easy to use kit building solder. As well as
      the flux in the cores not being aggressive enough for our needs it works at
      too high a temperature, doesn't flow freely into the joint and leaves a hard
      to clean off residue.

      Don't use coca cola. It may be high in phosphoric acid which is a basic flux
      but it's also full of sticky sugar or sugar substitutes, flavouring and
      other crap

      SOME DO'S

      Practice, Practice and then practice a bit more.

      Like most things soldering is a learned skill and practice on some bits of
      scrap etch will help you get the hang of it and help you understand what is
      going to happen when you do a joint on your model for real.

      You will also learn to be quick with the iron and judge how quickly you can
      get heat into an area, make a joint and get out again before the next joint
      along comes undone

      Practice, Practice and then practice a bit more.

      FOR LATER

      Once you have got the hang of it with this one simple set up you can start
      to learn additional tricks like using different temperature solders to stick
      the bulk of the body together with higher temp solder, add the details with
      the lower temp solder and then adding whitemetal details with low melt
      solder. You can learn new methods of heating and making joints but you have
      to do the basics before you can do the clever stuff

      REMEMBER THIS:

      THE OLD WIVES RECOMMENDING ARCANE PRACTICES WERE AROUND WHEN SOLDER WAS
      INVENTED AND IRONS WERE HEATED BY STICKING THEM IN THE FIRE. THEY WILL ALL
      HAVE DRAWERS OR BOXES OF KITS WHICH THEY COCKED UP WHILST THEY LEARNT HOW TO
      DO IT [THEY HAVE, I PROMISE YOU, EVEN IF THEY TRY TO DENY IT] AND THEY HAVE
      ONE THING THAT CANNOT BE TAUGHT - EXPERIENCE. THEY GOT THEIRS THE SAME WAY
      YOU HAVE TO - PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE

      This is what I teach when I do demo's at shows and it works. Mr "I can't
      solder for toffee" gets the iron stuck in his hand and is given a go
      following the above procedure and always goes away having made a successful
      joint proclaiming "that was easier than I thought"

      Paul Martin

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Paul Holmes
      Personally I would still stick to Carr s red label flux in preference to power flow but otherwise you could not have a better resume of soldering techniques
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 22, 2012
        Personally I would still stick to Carr's red label flux in preference to power flow but otherwise you could not have a better resume of soldering techniques anywhere. well done Paul

        --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Martin" <groups2@...> wrote:
        >
        > James,
        >
        >
        >
        > I suggest you ignore all this coco cola, cored solder hocus pocus. It may
        > well work for the people proclaiming it but it's not the most
        > straightforward way of getting a soldered joint and is quite likely to lead
        > to frustration and anger for the first time user without the knack. I am not
        > saying it won't work but much of it is the rambling tales of old wives. They
        > all seem to have missed on key factor to your success PRACTICE, PRACTICE and
        > more PRACTICE
        >
        >
        >
        > Here are a couple of suggestions for progressing and learning to solder
        > brass kits as a beginner.
        >
        >
        >
        > 1. Get yourself some 145 degree solder. Many model shops sell it. I
        > have it in stock.
        >
        > 2. Get yourself some Powerflow plumbers flux from B&Q (other large
        > sheds of DIY stuff are available). It comes in yellow pots. Eileens, Squires
        > and the like sell it but at a hobby store premium. A proper plumbers
        > merchant would likely be the cheapest source
        >
        > 3. Get yourself a fibreglass brush. The Polirods that I and the 7mm
        > NGA sold would be ideal but they are now pretty much sold out. The 7mm NGA
        > bought a massive end of stock quantity 15+ years ago and they finally ran
        > out.
        >
        > 4. For the kits you are doing pretty much any iron will do but buying
        > a decent 25W or larger iron is a sound investment. If you are determined to
        > make a go of soldering then a temperature controlled iron is a sound
        > investment.
        >
        > 5. Practice on the scrap frets in the kits. Don't make your first
        > joint delicate bit A to fragile part B
        >
        >
        >
        > Clean both bits of metal that are to be joined with you fibreglass brush.
        > Make the metal shiny. Do it just before soldering.
        >
        > Coat the surfaces with the flux. Use a cocktail stick to spread it thinly.
        > You need less than you think.
        >
        > Tin the end of the iron. That is to say clean it on a wet sponge, touch it
        > in the flux, touch it on the solder, it should pick some solder up on the
        > tip. If it doesn't repeat the cleaning and fluxing and if it's really dirty
        > on the tip abrade it with the fibreglass brush and then clean it, flux it
        > and tin it.
        >
        > Now put your two bits of flux coated etch together, aligned how you want
        > them and then touch the edge with the iron to transfer heat. The flux will
        > fizz and as the etch comes up to the right temperature the solder on the tip
        > will flow into the joint.
        >
        > Remove the iron and let the work cool down. You will see the surface of the
        > solder change as it solidifies. You can let go once that happens.
        >
        > Clean the flux off
        >
        > Clean surplus solder off.
        >
        > Practice this with bits that are flat to flat, edge to flat and edge to
        > edge. Make yourself a right angle corner out of two pieces of scrap and
        > watch the solder flow up the joint by capillary action
        >
        >
        >
        > Soldering with this setup is almost like painting. You can just wipe the
        > solder on with the tip of the iron. This will do you for 100% of the kits
        > you are asking about and will do you for about 95% of much more complex kits
        > and if you follow these guidelines you'll have learnt that additional 5% by
        > the time you are ready for the complex kit.
        >
        >
        >
        > VARIATIONS & SUGGESTIONS...
        >
        > With some parts it's easier to tin both parts to coat them with solder
        > before joining them. Do just as you did above but without the parts being
        > together to get solder to flow on to each surface. The put the two parts
        > together and just apply heat so the solder on both parts melts fuses
        > together. Remove the heat and wait for it to cool.
        >
        > Clean surplus solder out of joints with a selection of file, scrapers (mini
        > screwdrivers sharpened to a blade) or gravers (bits of tool steel
        > sharpened). Do it after each joint. Don't convince yourself you'll go back
        > and do it later, you won't.
        >
        > Clean the flux off regularly and at the end of every work session. Done when
        > fresh it runs off like butter off a hot knife if you run it under the tap.
        > If you leave it overnight you'll need aggression and bad language to shift
        > it! It is quite an aggressive flux which if it remained so for a long period
        > would eat your central heating (that's what it's really made for assembling
        > of course) so it is designed such that after it has been heated to turn
        > itself in to a hard and inert crust you will need chisel to remove.
        >
        > Finally clean it with a bit of home chemistry. The flux is basically an acid
        > and CIF cream cleaner is basically alkali so give it a final scrub in hot
        > water and CIF to neutralise and clean it. An old tooth brush helps
        >
        >
        >
        > SOME DON'TS
        >
        > Don't use cored electrical solder. There is a clue in its name as to why
        > not. It is designed to have good electrical characteristics more than it
        > is designed to be a free flowing easy to use kit building solder. As well as
        > the flux in the cores not being aggressive enough for our needs it works at
        > too high a temperature, doesn't flow freely into the joint and leaves a hard
        > to clean off residue.
        >
        >
        >
        > Don't use coca cola. It may be high in phosphoric acid which is a basic flux
        > but it's also full of sticky sugar or sugar substitutes, flavouring and
        > other crap
        >
        >
        >
        > SOME DO'S
        >
        > Practice, Practice and then practice a bit more.
        >
        > Like most things soldering is a learned skill and practice on some bits of
        > scrap etch will help you get the hang of it and help you understand what is
        > going to happen when you do a joint on your model for real.
        >
        > You will also learn to be quick with the iron and judge how quickly you can
        > get heat into an area, make a joint and get out again before the next joint
        > along comes undone
        >
        > Practice, Practice and then practice a bit more.
        >
        >
        >
        > FOR LATER
        >
        > Once you have got the hang of it with this one simple set up you can start
        > to learn additional tricks like using different temperature solders to stick
        > the bulk of the body together with higher temp solder, add the details with
        > the lower temp solder and then adding whitemetal details with low melt
        > solder. You can learn new methods of heating and making joints but you have
        > to do the basics before you can do the clever stuff
        >
        >
        >
        > REMEMBER THIS:
        >
        >
        >
        > THE OLD WIVES RECOMMENDING ARCANE PRACTICES WERE AROUND WHEN SOLDER WAS
        > INVENTED AND IRONS WERE HEATED BY STICKING THEM IN THE FIRE. THEY WILL ALL
        > HAVE DRAWERS OR BOXES OF KITS WHICH THEY COCKED UP WHILST THEY LEARNT HOW TO
        > DO IT [THEY HAVE, I PROMISE YOU, EVEN IF THEY TRY TO DENY IT] AND THEY HAVE
        > ONE THING THAT CANNOT BE TAUGHT - EXPERIENCE. THEY GOT THEIRS THE SAME WAY
        > YOU HAVE TO - PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE
        >
        >
        >
        > This is what I teach when I do demo's at shows and it works. Mr "I can't
        > solder for toffee" gets the iron stuck in his hand and is given a go
        > following the above procedure and always goes away having made a successful
        > joint proclaiming "that was easier than I thought"
        >
        >
        >
        > Paul Martin
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • James C
        Dear All esp Paul Martin, Howard Clarke, Frank Sharp etc, Thank you all for a superb response. I already have a 30 watt soldering iron and have been down to
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 22, 2012
          Dear All esp Paul Martin, Howard Clarke, Frank Sharp etc,
          Thank you all for a superb response. I already have a 30 watt soldering iron and have been down to B+Q and bought some plumbers solder and flux. I will be a little busy this weekend but it will also give me time to think, plus I am going to Colne Valley Railway exhibition and open day on SUnday 24th June 10:00 Am to 16:00 Am Castle Hedingham, perhaps I can find some more bits and pieces there.
          Many thanks,
          Best wishes,
          James Corsi

          --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Holmes" <heatonwood@...> wrote:
          >
          > Personally I would still stick to Carr's red label flux in preference to power flow but otherwise you could not have a better resume of soldering techniques anywhere. well done Paul
          >
          > --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Paul Martin" <groups2@> wrote:
          > >
          > > James,
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > I suggest you ignore all this coco cola, cored solder hocus pocus. It may
          > > well work for the people proclaiming it but it's not the most
          > > straightforward way of getting a soldered joint and is quite likely to lead
          > > to frustration and anger for the first time user without the knack. I am not
          > > saying it won't work but much of it is the rambling tales of old wives. They
          > > all seem to have missed on key factor to your success PRACTICE, PRACTICE and
          > > more PRACTICE
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Here are a couple of suggestions for progressing and learning to solder
          > > brass kits as a beginner.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > 1. Get yourself some 145 degree solder. Many model shops sell it. I
          > > have it in stock.
          > >
          > > 2. Get yourself some Powerflow plumbers flux from B&Q (other large
          > > sheds of DIY stuff are available). It comes in yellow pots. Eileens, Squires
          > > and the like sell it but at a hobby store premium. A proper plumbers
          > > merchant would likely be the cheapest source
          > >
          > > 3. Get yourself a fibreglass brush. The Polirods that I and the 7mm
          > > NGA sold would be ideal but they are now pretty much sold out. The 7mm NGA
          > > bought a massive end of stock quantity 15+ years ago and they finally ran
          > > out.
          > >
          > > 4. For the kits you are doing pretty much any iron will do but buying
          > > a decent 25W or larger iron is a sound investment. If you are determined to
          > > make a go of soldering then a temperature controlled iron is a sound
          > > investment.
          > >
          > > 5. Practice on the scrap frets in the kits. Don't make your first
          > > joint delicate bit A to fragile part B
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Clean both bits of metal that are to be joined with you fibreglass brush.
          > > Make the metal shiny. Do it just before soldering.
          > >
          > > Coat the surfaces with the flux. Use a cocktail stick to spread it thinly.
          > > You need less than you think.
          > >
          > > Tin the end of the iron. That is to say clean it on a wet sponge, touch it
          > > in the flux, touch it on the solder, it should pick some solder up on the
          > > tip. If it doesn't repeat the cleaning and fluxing and if it's really dirty
          > > on the tip abrade it with the fibreglass brush and then clean it, flux it
          > > and tin it.
          > >
          > > Now put your two bits of flux coated etch together, aligned how you want
          > > them and then touch the edge with the iron to transfer heat. The flux will
          > > fizz and as the etch comes up to the right temperature the solder on the tip
          > > will flow into the joint.
          > >
          > > Remove the iron and let the work cool down. You will see the surface of the
          > > solder change as it solidifies. You can let go once that happens.
          > >
          > > Clean the flux off
          > >
          > > Clean surplus solder off.
          > >
          > > Practice this with bits that are flat to flat, edge to flat and edge to
          > > edge. Make yourself a right angle corner out of two pieces of scrap and
          > > watch the solder flow up the joint by capillary action
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Soldering with this setup is almost like painting. You can just wipe the
          > > solder on with the tip of the iron. This will do you for 100% of the kits
          > > you are asking about and will do you for about 95% of much more complex kits
          > > and if you follow these guidelines you'll have learnt that additional 5% by
          > > the time you are ready for the complex kit.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > VARIATIONS & SUGGESTIONS...
          > >
          > > With some parts it's easier to tin both parts to coat them with solder
          > > before joining them. Do just as you did above but without the parts being
          > > together to get solder to flow on to each surface. The put the two parts
          > > together and just apply heat so the solder on both parts melts fuses
          > > together. Remove the heat and wait for it to cool.
          > >
          > > Clean surplus solder out of joints with a selection of file, scrapers (mini
          > > screwdrivers sharpened to a blade) or gravers (bits of tool steel
          > > sharpened). Do it after each joint. Don't convince yourself you'll go back
          > > and do it later, you won't.
          > >
          > > Clean the flux off regularly and at the end of every work session. Done when
          > > fresh it runs off like butter off a hot knife if you run it under the tap.
          > > If you leave it overnight you'll need aggression and bad language to shift
          > > it! It is quite an aggressive flux which if it remained so for a long period
          > > would eat your central heating (that's what it's really made for assembling
          > > of course) so it is designed such that after it has been heated to turn
          > > itself in to a hard and inert crust you will need chisel to remove.
          > >
          > > Finally clean it with a bit of home chemistry. The flux is basically an acid
          > > and CIF cream cleaner is basically alkali so give it a final scrub in hot
          > > water and CIF to neutralise and clean it. An old tooth brush helps
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > SOME DON'TS
          > >
          > > Don't use cored electrical solder. There is a clue in its name as to why
          > > not. It is designed to have good electrical characteristics more than it
          > > is designed to be a free flowing easy to use kit building solder. As well as
          > > the flux in the cores not being aggressive enough for our needs it works at
          > > too high a temperature, doesn't flow freely into the joint and leaves a hard
          > > to clean off residue.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Don't use coca cola. It may be high in phosphoric acid which is a basic flux
          > > but it's also full of sticky sugar or sugar substitutes, flavouring and
          > > other crap
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > SOME DO'S
          > >
          > > Practice, Practice and then practice a bit more.
          > >
          > > Like most things soldering is a learned skill and practice on some bits of
          > > scrap etch will help you get the hang of it and help you understand what is
          > > going to happen when you do a joint on your model for real.
          > >
          > > You will also learn to be quick with the iron and judge how quickly you can
          > > get heat into an area, make a joint and get out again before the next joint
          > > along comes undone
          > >
          > > Practice, Practice and then practice a bit more.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > FOR LATER
          > >
          > > Once you have got the hang of it with this one simple set up you can start
          > > to learn additional tricks like using different temperature solders to stick
          > > the bulk of the body together with higher temp solder, add the details with
          > > the lower temp solder and then adding whitemetal details with low melt
          > > solder. You can learn new methods of heating and making joints but you have
          > > to do the basics before you can do the clever stuff
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > REMEMBER THIS:
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > THE OLD WIVES RECOMMENDING ARCANE PRACTICES WERE AROUND WHEN SOLDER WAS
          > > INVENTED AND IRONS WERE HEATED BY STICKING THEM IN THE FIRE. THEY WILL ALL
          > > HAVE DRAWERS OR BOXES OF KITS WHICH THEY COCKED UP WHILST THEY LEARNT HOW TO
          > > DO IT [THEY HAVE, I PROMISE YOU, EVEN IF THEY TRY TO DENY IT] AND THEY HAVE
          > > ONE THING THAT CANNOT BE TAUGHT - EXPERIENCE. THEY GOT THEIRS THE SAME WAY
          > > YOU HAVE TO - PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > This is what I teach when I do demo's at shows and it works. Mr "I can't
          > > solder for toffee" gets the iron stuck in his hand and is given a go
          > > following the above procedure and always goes away having made a successful
          > > joint proclaiming "that was easier than I thought"
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Paul Martin
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
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