Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

DCC, was Bradford Members day

Expand Messages
  • Taylor, David
    Hi Paul Thanks very much for the advice. I like your progression list, I m at the Gaugemaster stage and I think I might skip the Pentroller; besides, I m not
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
      Hi Paul

      Thanks very much for the advice. I like your progression list, I'm at the Gaugemaster stage and I think I might skip the Pentroller; besides, I'm not sure if you can still get them.
      Its looking like the NCE system will be best for my needs; I'm not too fussed about sound, anyway I've usually got music playing in the railway room.

      Thanks again,
      Dave.T

      PS When will Dinas be out on show again?


      -----Original Message-----
      From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paul Holmes
      Sent: 13 November 2008 17:32
      To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day

      Hi David
      DCC is great..... I would never go back to DC again.
      Apart from cost - realistically £250 and chips for all existing locos, then it adds about £22-30 to each loco or £60-100 for sound.
      Advantages -
      a) simplified wiring -for basics then, no switches No isolation sections of track and potentially no point switches or accessory switches either. BUT if you get into feedback systems - where the control system knows where the locos are, then track circuirts have to be re-introduced!!
      b) superior control I have used H+M then Compspeed then Gaugemaster then PENTROLLER then Lenz - each system was an improvement on the one before.
      c) Multiple train occupancy - double heading, 2 locos on shed at the same time moving independently, banking etc etc.
      d) sound smoke lights uncoupling etc all contollable
      e) the decoders are getting smaller and better all the time smallest is now to my knowledge the CT elektronics at 9 X7 X 2.6mm size!!

      So enough plugging I use Lenz control and a mix of Lenz gold,
      CT electronics, Umelec Dietz sound and one Zimo decoders

      Bets wishes
      Paul Holmes

      --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Taylor, David" <DLTaylor@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Paul,
      >
      > Would love to come and see your DCC demo, but Bradford is a bit far
      from Devon. Please can you advise what DCC system you use?
      > I'm looking seriously at conversion, but can't make up my mind.
      >
      > Many thanks,
      > David Taylor.
      >
      > ________________________________________
      > From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Paul Holmes [heatonwood@...]
      > Sent: 12 November 2008 13:04
      > To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
      >
      > I shall be taking a short test track to the Members Day this
      Saturday
      > both 14mm and 16.5mm gauge track with DCC control. Non DCC locos
      will
      > run OK EXCEPT locos with coreless (portescap/maxon etc).
      > All welcome to run anything up and down 4 feet of curved track.
      Very
      > basic stuff. Also oppurtunity for all ( me included) to look at DCC
      > and laptop control systems Paul H PS I would love another lok at
      > your Fairlie and de Wintons,
      Frank...
      >
      >

      >



      ------------------------------------

      This group is:
      1 - for people interested in modelling narrow gauge railways in 7mm:1ft scale or thereabouts
      2 - not restricted to members of the 7mm Narrow Gauge Association although membership of said organisation is thoroughly recommended
      3 - moderated by current serving members of the 7mm Narrow Gauge Association committeeYahoo! Groups Links
    • Paul Holmes
      Hi David and all Just re-read my posting - it looks as if I was teaching grandma about eggs somewhat - but hoped the message might have been read by others
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
        Hi David and all Just re-read my posting - it looks as if I was
        teaching grandma about eggs somewhat - but hoped the message might
        have been read by others not so well versed with DCC matters.

        Dinas is booked out twice next year - it is so unmanageable that is
        more than enough... I am working on a quarrymen's train and Little
        Wonder and hope there will be some more scenic work done soon.

        I shall be at Porthmadog in May and then NEC in November all being
        well. but see you at Small and Delightful hopefully as Borth-y-Gest
        is there. Paul H
        --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Taylor, David" <DLTaylor@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Paul
        >
        > Thanks very much for the advice. I like your progression list, I'm
        at the Gaugemaster stage and I think I might skip the Pentroller;
        besides, I'm not sure if you can still get them.
        > Its looking like the NCE system will be best for my needs; I'm not
        too fussed about sound, anyway I've usually got music playing in the
        railway room.
        >
        > Thanks again,
        > Dave.T
        >
        > PS When will Dinas be out on show again?
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [mailto:7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Paul Holmes
        > Sent: 13 November 2008 17:32
        > To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
        >
        > Hi David
        > DCC is great..... I would never go back to DC again.
        > Apart from cost - realistically £250 and chips for all existing
        locos, then it adds about £22-30 to each loco or £60-100 for sound.
        > Advantages -
        > a) simplified wiring -for basics then, no switches No isolation
        sections of track and potentially no point switches or accessory
        switches either. BUT if you get into feedback systems - where the
        control system knows where the locos are, then track circuirts have
        to be re-introduced!!
        > b) superior control I have used H+M then Compspeed then
        Gaugemaster then PENTROLLER then Lenz - each system was an
        improvement on the one before.
        > c) Multiple train occupancy - double heading, 2 locos on shed at
        the same time moving independently, banking etc etc.
        > d) sound smoke lights uncoupling etc all contollable
        > e) the decoders are getting smaller and better all the time
        smallest is now to my knowledge the CT elektronics at 9 X7 X 2.6mm
        size!!
        >
        > So enough plugging I use Lenz control and a mix of Lenz gold,
        > CT electronics, Umelec Dietz sound and one Zimo decoders
        >
        > Bets wishes
        > Paul Holmes
        >
        > --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, "Taylor, David" <DLTaylor@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Paul,
        > >
        > > Would love to come and see your DCC demo, but Bradford is a bit
        far
        > from Devon. Please can you advise what DCC system you use?
        > > I'm looking seriously at conversion, but can't make up my mind.
        > >
        > > Many thanks,
        > > David Taylor.
        > >
        > > ________________________________________
        > > From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com [7mmnga@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        > Paul Holmes [heatonwood@]
        > > Sent: 12 November 2008 13:04
        > > To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
        > > Subject: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
        > >
        > > I shall be taking a short test track to the Members Day this
        > Saturday
        > > both 14mm and 16.5mm gauge track with DCC control. Non DCC locos
        > will
        > > run OK EXCEPT locos with coreless (portescap/maxon etc).
        > > All welcome to run anything up and down 4 feet of curved track.
        > Very
        > > basic stuff. Also oppurtunity for all ( me included) to look at
        DCC
        > > and laptop control systems Paul H PS I would love another lok at
        > > your Fairlie and de Wintons,
        > Frank...
        > >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > This group is:
        > 1 - for people interested in modelling narrow gauge railways in
        7mm:1ft scale or thereabouts
        > 2 - not restricted to members of the 7mm Narrow Gauge Association
        although membership of said organisation is thoroughly recommended
        > 3 - moderated by current serving members of the 7mm Narrow Gauge
        Association committeeYahoo! Groups Links
        >
      • Paul Holmes
        Hi Ranjeev. How good to know we have fellow modellers in the New Delhi area!! There is no problem at all with live frog points and DCC - as long as you follow
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
          Hi Ranjeev. How good to know we have fellow modellers in the New
          Delhi area!!

          There is no problem at all with live frog points and DCC - as long as
          you follow the basic rule that you MUST fit insulated rail joiners to
          the rails beyond the points and then take power to the track there
          again. This I think is exactly the same as ordinary wiring anyway if
          the point leads onto a loop line rather than a siding - otherwise
          there would be short circuits
          best wishes Paul H


          --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Ranjeev Dubey <ranjeevdubey@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Paul ( I hope you don't mind my addressing you in this
          familiar fashion),
          >  
          > I am new on this group but have followed this thread with interest.
          I have the impression that DCC and Peco live frog turnouts don't mix
          unless one additionally insulates the frog.
          >  
          > Could you please guide us on this point?
          >  
          > Many thanks for your time.
          >  
          > Ranjeev
          > ----------------------------------------------------------------
          > Ranjeev C Dubey
          > Managing Partner
          > New Delhi Law Offices (South)
          > C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
          > Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
          > Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522
          >
          > www.ndlosouth.com
          > www.winninglegalwars.com
          >
          > --- On Thu, 13/11/08, Paul Holmes <heatonwood@...> wrote:
          >
          > From: Paul Holmes <heatonwood@...>
          > Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
          > To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, 13 November, 2008, 11:02 PM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Hi David
          > DCC is great..... I would never go back to DC again.
          > Apart from cost - realistically £250 and chips for all existing
          > locos, then it adds about £22-30 to each loco or £60-100 for
          sound.
          > Advantages -
          > a) simplified wiring -for basics then, no switches No isolation
          > sections of track and potentially no point switches or accessory
          > switches either. BUT if you get into feedback systems - where the
          > control system knows where the locos are, then track circuirts have
          > to be re-introduced! !
          > b) superior control I have used H+M then Compspeed then Gaugemaster
          > then PENTROLLER then Lenz - each system was an improvement on the
          one
          > before.
          > c) Multiple train occupancy - double heading, 2 locos on shed at
          the
          > same time moving independently, banking etc etc.
          > d) sound smoke lights uncoupling etc all contollable
          > e) the decoders are getting smaller and better all the time
          smallest
          > is now to my knowledge the CT elektronics at 9 X7 X 2.6mm size!!
          >
          > So enough plugging I use Lenz control and a mix of Lenz gold,
          > CT electronics, Umelec Dietz sound and one Zimo decoders
          >
          > Bets wishes
          > Paul Holmes
          >
          > --- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups. com, "Taylor, David" <DLTaylor@ .> wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Paul,
          > >
          > > Would love to come and see your DCC demo, but Bradford is a bit
          far
          > from Devon. Please can you advise what DCC system you use?
          > > I'm looking seriously at conversion, but can't make up my mind.
          > >
          > > Many thanks,
          > > David Taylor.
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > > From: 7mmnga@yahoogroups. com [7mmnga@yahoogroups. com] On Behalf
          Of
          > Paul Holmes [heatonwood@ ...]
          > > Sent: 12 November 2008 13:04
          > > To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups. com
          > > Subject: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
          > >
          > > I shall be taking a short test track to the Members Day this
          > Saturday
          > > both 14mm and 16.5mm gauge track with DCC control. Non DCC locos
          > will
          > > run OK EXCEPT locos with coreless (portescap/maxon etc).
          > > All welcome to run anything up and down 4 feet of curved track.
          > Very
          > > basic stuff. Also oppurtunity for all ( me included) to look at
          DCC
          > > and laptop control systems Paul H
          > > PS I would love another lok at your Fairlie and de Wintons,
          > Frank...
          > >
          > >
          >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to
          http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • John Dennis
          The issue with Peco points and DCC occurs when you provide a switched feed to the frog. When the points are thrown, the polarity on the frog feed switches,
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
            The "issue" with Peco points and DCC occurs when you provide a
            switched feed to the frog. When the points are thrown, the polarity on
            the frog feed switches, but the point blades may still be up against
            the opposite stock rail. Or, alternatively, the point blades complete
            their movement before the frog feed switch is thrown.

            This double feeding of the frog can cause intermittent shorts. Not a
            problem with DC, but a short on DCC can shut down the whole layout
            briefly.

            Now, having said that, I have a small number of Peco 009 turnouts on
            the Dutton Bay, operated in the main by Tortoise slow motion machines,
            but there are other types in use, and I have not seen a problem at
            all. But there are people who claim this is endemic.

            John

            On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:10:41 -0000, "Paul Holmes"
            <heatonwood@...> wrote:

            >Hi Ranjeev. How good to know we have fellow modellers in the New
            >Delhi area!!
            >
            >There is no problem at all with live frog points and DCC - as long as
            >you follow the basic rule that you MUST fit insulated rail joiners to
            >the rails beyond the points and then take power to the track there
            >again. This I think is exactly the same as ordinary wiring anyway if
            >the point leads onto a loop line rather than a siding - otherwise
            >there would be short circuits
            >best wishes Paul H
            >
            >
            >--- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Ranjeev Dubey <ranjeevdubey@...> wrote:
            >>
            >> Dear Paul ( I hope you don't mind my addressing you in this
            >familiar fashion),
            >>  
            >> I am new on this group but have followed this thread with interest.
            >I have the impression that DCC and Peco live frog turnouts don't mix
            >unless one additionally insulates the frog.
            >>  
            >> Could you please guide us on this point?
            >>  
            ==========================================================
            John Dennis jdennis@...
            Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
            and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
            Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optusnet.com.au/duttonbay
            WebX http://members.optusnet.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
          • Paul Holmes
            Maybe as I have been building handbuilt turnouts with metal crossings (live frogs) for years i did not appreciate the problem I presumed the point blade was
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
              Maybe as I have been building handbuilt turnouts with metal crossings
              (live frogs) for years i did not appreciate the problem I presumed
              the point blade was always the same polarity as the adjacent stock
              rail - is this not so on a PECO point???
              Paul H

              -- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, John Dennis <jdennis@...> wrote:
              >
              > The "issue" with Peco points and DCC occurs when you provide a
              > switched feed to the frog. When the points are thrown, the polarity
              on
              > the frog feed switches, but the point blades may still be up against
              > the opposite stock rail. Or, alternatively, the point blades
              complete
              > their movement before the frog feed switch is thrown.
              >
              > This double feeding of the frog can cause intermittent shorts. Not a
              > problem with DC, but a short on DCC can shut down the whole layout
              > briefly.
              >
              > Now, having said that, I have a small number of Peco 009 turnouts on
              > the Dutton Bay, operated in the main by Tortoise slow motion
              machines,
              > but there are other types in use, and I have not seen a problem at
              > all. But there are people who claim this is endemic.
              >
              > John
              >
              > On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 20:10:41 -0000, "Paul Holmes"
              > <heatonwood@...> wrote:
              >
              > >Hi Ranjeev. How good to know we have fellow modellers in the New
              > >Delhi area!!
              > >
              > >There is no problem at all with live frog points and DCC - as long
              as
              > >you follow the basic rule that you MUST fit insulated rail joiners
              to
              > >the rails beyond the points and then take power to the track there
              > >again. This I think is exactly the same as ordinary wiring anyway
              if
              > >the point leads onto a loop line rather than a siding - otherwise
              > >there would be short circuits
              > >best wishes Paul H
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com, Ranjeev Dubey <ranjeevdubey@> wrote:
              > >>
              > >> Dear Paul ( I hope you don't mind my addressing you in this
              > >familiar fashion),
              > >>  
              > >> I am new on this group but have followed this thread with
              interest.
              > >I have the impression that DCC and Peco live frog turnouts don't
              mix
              > >unless one additionally insulates the frog.
              > >>  
              > >> Could you please guide us on this point?
              > >>  
              > ==========================================================
              > John Dennis jdennis@...
              > Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
              > and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
              > Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optusnet.com.au/duttonbay
              > WebX http://members.optusnet.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
              >
            • John Dennis
              Paul, No, Peco points are designed to feed the frog through the blades contacting the stock rail. This is (a) what causes this DCC issue, and (b) what leads to
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
                Paul,

                No, Peco points are designed to feed the frog through the blades
                contacting the stock rail. This is (a) what causes this DCC issue, and
                (b) what leads to poor performance when the point blades are not clean
                and/or not making proper contact with the stock rails.

                The real fix is to isolate the frog, and bond the blades to the stock
                rails, as we do with handlaid pointwork. As I mentioned, I haven't
                done that, and don't see any problems which others have reported.

                Perhaps my success might be because I have removed the over-centre
                spring from the points, so the blades move freely. With that spring in
                place the blades won't move until there is sufficient force to
                overcome the spring tension. That of course will increase the
                likelihood of the frog changing polarity before the blades break
                contact with the stock rail, resulting in the short circuit.

                John

                On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:31:21 -0000, "Paul Holmes"
                <heatonwood@...> wrote:

                >Maybe as I have been building handbuilt turnouts with metal crossings
                >(live frogs) for years i did not appreciate the problem I presumed
                >the point blade was always the same polarity as the adjacent stock
                >rail - is this not so on a PECO point???
                >Paul H
                ==========================================================
                John Dennis jdennis@...
                Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                Dutton Bay URL: http://members.optusnet.com.au/duttonbay
                WebX http://members.optusnet.com.au/jdennis/ng_webex.html
              • Ranjeev Dubey
                Gentlemen,   I note the DCC thread with increasingly interest and must confess my own experiance with DCC was not good. I didn t read about it enough, didn t
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
                  Gentlemen,
                   
                  I note the DCC thread with increasingly interest and must confess my own experiance with DCC was not good. I didn't read about it enough, didn't understand enough and was too mired in my DC mindset. This lead to strange results.
                   
                  In 2006, I purchased a top of the line Digitrax system with the newly introduced Tsunami sound decoders. I did not modify my Peco track or turnouts. Incidentally, I hand throw my turnouts and have no secondary system of changing the frog polarity on my electrofrogs. I had already wired for DC (DPDT cab control) and cannot say how that impacted my experiance.
                   
                  In six months of operating DCC, I burnt out one loco (the Bachmann HO GE 44 tonner: I don't know if it has a coreless motor which I am told would be bad to run DCC), melted the plastic ties of one turnout and had shorts every fifteen minutes of operation. I also speculated that dust being what it is in India, a fully scenicked layout which is also not squeaky clean is going to lead to runway locos. It did in my case. Its very scary when a locos plunges off the end of a layout because the controller is unable to communicate with it.
                   
                  Eventually I decided that DCC in 2006 was where computers were before Windows 95: unreliable and crashing all the time. Naturally, all this may be obsolete information but there are two other modelers in Delhi using DCC (in HO and N, respectively Digitrax and MRC) and both report they have no problems. Both are passionate believers in DCC: however, I have visited the layouts of both when they were operating and both had shorts and system shut downs approximately every ten-fifteen minutes. To their credit, they always know what the problem is and fix it almost immediately: I used to be bewildered. I suppose you could argue that DC has its share of shutdowns too.You could say I only see what I want to see and you would be right but I am middle aged now and questioning the value of doing things only because I can.
                   
                  Its the Bill Clinton delimma: choosing to do something because he could.
                   
                  Eventually I came to ask myself: do I need this? I have one engine in steam, operate alone and have a very small layout. Throwing a toggle is less work than all the conversion and management. And I couldn't convert my small railcars which run on Tinshodo motor bogies. I am sure someone else can: I just haven't the skill.
                   
                  Sound had something to do with the decision too but then along came DC sound and DCC lost a little more of its rationale. DC sound is still mired in litigation in the US but its going to go away and then we would be able to have DC sound decoders without trouble. We can already buy duel mode sound decoders: I got the MRC steam decoder and its fine, only too expensive. Of course, DC sound is nowhere as satisfactory as DCC sound but everyone defines their own thresholds I guess. I don't stop driving only because I will never be as good as Lewis Hamilton.
                   
                  Here were my conclusions (and I am perfectly happy to be wrong):
                   
                  1. Some people like technology, others not. The decision to do DCC may not be completely removed from the joy some people derive from creating something sophisticated, controllable, tweakable, techie. Its really about asking oneself, who am I?
                   
                  2. Everyone has a tinkering threshold. I used to do N with point motors but now use manual control. Obviously I have deep prejudices and deep resistance to sophistication. On the other hand, a friend of mine has a fully computer controlled layout in I think a 1000 sq feet. Its a personal choice (or compulsion if as Shakespere said, character is destiny). Its fascinating stuff I am sure, just a bridge too far for me.
                   
                  3. DCC is high budget and high maintenance. One has to decide how much time to spend tinkering with converting, programing and changing CVs and cleaning wheels, etc. Is this fun or a chore? The answer I suppose varies with the hobbyist.
                   
                  I guess that sums up my (perhaps flawed) viewpoint. I don't really mean to provoke or upset and my apologies if all this has sounded very agressive. Like many lawyers, I have too many years of addressing issues in a certain way to be able to seriously mellow but I mean well. I only wish someone had told me all this before I made my choice, unpalatable as it may have been at the time to me. And since I went top of the line right off the bat, I especially resent the US$ 2000 I blew up in a day (which in Rupees is a lot more than any headache is worth).
                   
                  I am sure my incompetence with electronics impacts my perspective.
                   
                  If I was facing this choice, I would start with an entry level system, use it on a very small layout and then determine what DCC did for me. Cost benifit analysis so to speak.
                   
                  I rest my case my lords.
                   
                  Ranjeev
                   

                  Ranjeev C Dubey
                  Managing Partner
                  New Delhi Law Offices (South)
                  C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
                  Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
                  Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522

                  www.ndlosouth.com
                  www.winninglegalwars.com

                  --- On Wed, 19/11/08, John Dennis <jdennis@...> wrote:

                  From: John Dennis <jdennis@...>
                  Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
                  To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Wednesday, 19 November, 2008, 5:12 AM






                  Paul,

                  No, Peco points are designed to feed the frog through the blades
                  contacting the stock rail. This is (a) what causes this DCC issue, and
                  (b) what leads to poor performance when the point blades are not clean
                  and/or not making proper contact with the stock rails.

                  The real fix is to isolate the frog, and bond the blades to the stock
                  rails, as we do with handlaid pointwork. As I mentioned, I haven't
                  done that, and don't see any problems which others have reported.

                  Perhaps my success might be because I have removed the over-centre
                  spring from the points, so the blades move freely. With that spring in
                  place the blades won't move until there is sufficient force to
                  overcome the spring tension. That of course will increase the
                  likelihood of the frog changing polarity before the blades break
                  contact with the stock rail, resulting in the short circuit.

                  John

                  On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:31:21 -0000, "Paul Holmes"
                  <heatonwood@hotmail. com> wrote:

                  >Maybe as I have been building handbuilt turnouts with metal crossings
                  >(live frogs) for years i did not appreciate the problem I presumed
                  >the point blade was always the same polarity as the adjacent stock
                  >rail - is this not so on a PECO point???
                  >Paul H
                  ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =
                  John Dennis jdennis@optusnet. com.au
                  Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                  and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                  Dutton Bay URL: http://members. optusnet. com.au/duttonbay
                  WebX http://members. optusnet. com.au/jdennis/ ng_webex. html
















                  From Chandigarh to Chennai - find friends all over India. Go to http://in.promos.yahoo.com/groups/citygroups/

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ranjeev Dubey
                  I think I have successive mails on the same subject. Please read the last which is the only complete one.   Sorry for this.   Ranjeev Ranjeev C Dubey
                  Message 8 of 20 , Nov 18, 2008
                    I think I have successive mails on the same subject. Please read the last which is the only complete one.
                     
                    Sorry for this.
                     
                    Ranjeev

                    Ranjeev C Dubey
                    Managing Partner
                    New Delhi Law Offices (South)
                    C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
                    Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
                    Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522

                    www.ndlosouth.com
                    www.winninglegalwars.com

                    --- On Wed, 19/11/08, Ranjeev Dubey <ranjeevdubey@...> wrote:

                    From: Ranjeev Dubey <ranjeevdubey@...>
                    Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
                    To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Wednesday, 19 November, 2008, 12:55 PM






                    Gentlemen,
                     
                    I note the DCC thread with increasingly interest and while I don't want to be the rebel in search of a cause, my own experiance with DCC was not good. I didn't read about it enough, didn't understand enough and was too mired in my DC mindset. This lead to strange results.
                     
                    In 2006, I purchased a top of the line Digitrax system with the newly introduced Tsunami sound decoders. I did not modify my Peco track or turnouts. Incidentally, I hand throw my turnouts and have no secondary system of changing the frog polarity on my electrofrogs. I had already wired for DC (DPDT cab control) and cannot say how that impacted my experiance.
                     
                    In six months of operating DCC, I burnt out one loco (the Bachmann HO GE 44 tonner which is really the Indan WDS-1 shunting loco, melted the plastic ties of one turnout and had shorts every fifteen minutes of operation. I also speculated that dust being what it is in India, a fully sceniced layout which is also not squeaky clean is going to lead to runway locos. It did in my case. Its very scary when a locos plunges off the end of a layout because the controller is unable to communicate with it.
                     
                    Eventually I decided that DCC in 2006 was where computers were before Windows 95: unreliable and crashing all the time. Naturally, all this may be obsolete information but there are two other modelers in Delhi using DCC (in HO and N, respectively Digitrax and MRC) and both report they have no problems. Both are passionate believers in DCC and that is to be respected. However, I have visited the layouts of both when they were operating and both had shorts and system shut downs approximately every ten-fifteen minutes. To their credit, they always know what the problem is and fix it almost immediately: I used to be bewildered. You could say I only see what I want to see and you would be right but I am middle aged now and questioning the value of doing things only because I can.
                     
                    Eventually I came to ask myself: do I need this? I have one engine in steam, operate alone and have a very small layout. Throwing a toggle is less work than all this. And I couldn't convert my small railcars which run on Tinshodo motor bogies.
                     
                    Sound had something to do with the decision too but then along came DC sound and DCC lost a little more of its rationale. Of course, DC sound is nowhere as satisfactory as DCC sound but everyone defines their own thresholds I guess. I don't stop driving only because I will never be as good as Hamilton.
                     
                    Here were my conclusions (and I am perfectly happy to be wrong):
                     
                    1. Some people like technology, others not. The decision to do DCC may not be completely removed from the joy some people derive from creating something sophisticated, controllable, tweakable, techie. Its really about asking oneself, who am I?
                     
                    2.

                    Ranjeev C Dubey
                    Managing Partner
                    New Delhi Law Offices (South)
                    C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
                    Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
                    Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522

                    www.ndlosouth. com
                    www.winninglegalwar s.com

                    --- On Wed, 19/11/08, John Dennis <jdennis@optusnet. com.au> wrote:

                    From: John Dennis <jdennis@optusnet. com.au>
                    Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
                    To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Wednesday, 19 November, 2008, 5:12 AM

                    Paul,

                    No, Peco points are designed to feed the frog through the blades
                    contacting the stock rail. This is (a) what causes this DCC issue, and
                    (b) what leads to poor performance when the point blades are not clean
                    and/or not making proper contact with the stock rails.

                    The real fix is to isolate the frog, and bond the blades to the stock
                    rails, as we do with handlaid pointwork. As I mentioned, I haven't
                    done that, and don't see any problems which others have reported.

                    Perhaps my success might be because I have removed the over-centre
                    spring from the points, so the blades move freely. With that spring in
                    place the blades won't move until there is sufficient force to
                    overcome the spring tension. That of course will increase the
                    likelihood of the frog changing polarity before the blades break
                    contact with the stock rail, resulting in the short circuit.

                    John

                    On Tue, 18 Nov 2008 23:31:21 -0000, "Paul Holmes"
                    <heatonwood@ hotmail. com> wrote:

                    >Maybe as I have been building handbuilt turnouts with metal crossings
                    >(live frogs) for years i did not appreciate the problem I presumed
                    >the point blade was always the same polarity as the adjacent stock
                    >rail - is this not so on a PECO point???
                    >Paul H
                    ============ ========= ========= ========= ========= ========= =
                    John Dennis jdennis@optusnet. com.au
                    Melbourne,Australia Home of the HOn30 Dutton Bay Tramway
                    and the Australian Narrow Gauge Web-Exhibition Gallery
                    Dutton Bay URL: http://members. optusnet. com.au/duttonbay
                    WebX http://members. optusnet. com.au/jdennis/ ng_webex. html

                    Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger. yahoo.com/ invite/

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                    Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ron & Hilary Martin
                    Ranjeev, Thanks very much for an interesting and very logical message. I have been working my way through DCC now for a few years. At the present time I am
                    Message 9 of 20 , Nov 19, 2008
                      Ranjeev,

                      Thanks very much for an interesting and very logical message.

                      I have been working my way through DCC now for a few years. At the present
                      time I am using a Uhlenbrock Intellibox (definitely not a cheap option). It
                      has the great advantage that it gives me a virtual control panel where I can
                      operate points and have a display of the actual setting with out a single
                      electrical switch and the accompanying cat's cradle wiring) in sight. The
                      actual layout is in two completely isolated sections, and for track power, I
                      have the best of both worlds, in that each of them can be separately
                      switched between DC and DCC. It will never be the case that certain of my
                      special' locos will have decoders fitted, so I can happily run one or two
                      engines in steam on the two sections when I am alone. When others join me, I
                      can bring out decoder and often sound fitted locos and run these under DCC
                      on one or both of the sections. This allows others to operate locos at the
                      same time as me, either in conjunction or competition. Things such as
                      station pilots or double heading become easier.

                      I think my overall approach can be summed up in a single word - 'flexibility
                      .

                      Ron
                      -------Original Message-------

                      From: Ranjeev Dubey
                      Date: 19/11/2008 6:53:33 PM
                      To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day

                      I think I have successive mails on the same subject. Please read the last
                      which is the only complete one.

                      Sorry for this.

                      Ranjeev

                      Ranjeev C Dubey
                      Managing Partner
                      New Delhi Law Offices (South)
                      C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
                      Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
                      Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522

                      www.ndlosouth.com
                      www.winninglegalwars.com




                      .



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ranjeev Dubey
                      Dear Ron,   Thank you for your mail.SInce I own a few duel mode locos chassis from the US, I suppose yours is the solution I will end up with.   I was
                      Message 10 of 20 , Nov 19, 2008
                        Dear Ron,
                         
                        Thank you for your mail.SInce I own a few duel mode locos chassis from the US, I suppose yours is the solution I will end up with.
                         
                        I was generally bewildered about DCC and I am glad I asked the question here because this is the first time anyone has guided me on exactly what the issue is on Peco and
                        DCC. I am grateful to be on the group and for the guidance.
                         
                        I guess I will go back to DCC at some point but only after the Windows XP of DCC is on the market. All this crashing and burning really leaves me cold.
                         
                        Thank you for writing in.
                         
                        Best wishes
                         
                        Ranjeev

                        Ranjeev C Dubey
                        Managing Partner
                        New Delhi Law Offices (South)
                        C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
                        Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
                        Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522

                        www.ndlosouth.com
                        www.winninglegalwars.com

                        --- On Wed, 19/11/08, Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...> wrote:

                        From: Ron & Hilary Martin <ronhil@...>
                        Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day
                        To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Wednesday, 19 November, 2008, 2:53 PM






                        Ranjeev,

                        Thanks very much for an interesting and very logical message.

                        I have been working my way through DCC now for a few years. At the present
                        time I am using a Uhlenbrock Intellibox (definitely not a cheap option). It
                        has the great advantage that it gives me a virtual control panel where I can
                        operate points and have a display of the actual setting with out a single
                        electrical switch and the accompanying cat's cradle wiring) in sight. The
                        actual layout is in two completely isolated sections, and for track power, I
                        have the best of both worlds, in that each of them can be separately
                        switched between DC and DCC. It will never be the case that certain of my
                        special' locos will have decoders fitted, so I can happily run one or two
                        engines in steam on the two sections when I am alone. When others join me, I
                        can bring out decoder and often sound fitted locos and run these under DCC
                        on one or both of the sections. This allows others to operate locos at the
                        same time as me, either in conjunction or competition. Things such as
                        station pilots or double heading become easier.

                        I think my overall approach can be summed up in a single word - 'flexibility
                        .

                        Ron
                        -------Original Message----- --

                        From: Ranjeev Dubey
                        Date: 19/11/2008 6:53:33 PM
                        To: 7mmnga@yahoogroups. com
                        Subject: Re: [7mm NGA] Bradford Members day

                        I think I have successive mails on the same subject. Please read the last
                        which is the only complete one.

                        Sorry for this.

                        Ranjeev

                        Ranjeev C Dubey
                        Managing Partner
                        New Delhi Law Offices (South)
                        C62B, Supermart - I, DLF City IV
                        Gurgaon, Haryana 122002
                        Telefax: +91-124-5042521 or 5042522

                        www.ndlosouth. com
                        www.winninglegalwar s.com




                        .



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                        Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger.yahoo.com/invite/

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • David Butler
                        Belated thanks to David for another great meet - more like a meet and greet for some of us regulars! Reading the posts reminded me that nobody made a mention
                        Message 11 of 20 , Nov 20, 2008
                          Belated thanks to David for another great meet - more like a meet and
                          greet for some of us regulars!
                          Reading the posts reminded me that nobody made a mention of
                          the 'Getting started in 0n30', a copy of which I purchased just for the
                          bright cover.
                          Well done folks for producing it and to all the contributors for their
                          articles. I hope it sells well.
                          Regards
                          David(UK)
                          #2597
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.