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Re: Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.

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  • K
    Ray, thanks for the valve link. That helps me too. I also performed an Ebay search for an air cyliner and came with a double acting air cyliner with a 20mm rod
    Message 1 of 25 , Mar 1, 2010
      Ray, thanks for the valve link. That helps me too. I also performed an Ebay search for an air cyliner and came with a double acting air cyliner with a 20mm rod and 100mm stroke. Think that will work for me on a Jet 4 x 6 ?

      Thanks, Keith

      --- In 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com, "Ray C Archibald" <rca@...> wrote:
      >
      > Pete,
      >
      > Check out this one on Ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Parker-Flow-Control-Valve-Model-F600B-New_W0QQitemZ120535530713QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c107a3cd9
      >
      > There are several listed on here. I just did an Ebay search for "flow control valve"
      >
      > Ray
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Peter V
      > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 10:42
      > Subject: RE: [4x6bandsaw] Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.
      >
      >
      >
      > Where can I get a hydraulic valve like you folks are using?
      >
      > Thanks, pete
      >
      >
      > \\\|///
      > \\ - - //
      > ( @ @ )
      > +---oOOo-(_)-oOOo----+
      > Peter A. VanDerWal
      > Peter_v@...
      > +----------Oooo-----+
      > oooO ( )
      > ( ) ) /
      > \ ( (_/
      > \_}
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
      > > From: rca@...
      > > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:43:16 +0000
      > > Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.
      > >
      > > I installed a pnumatic ram on my 4x6 bandsaw with tubing running from one port to the other port thru a flow control valve that is thru one way and controled the other forming a closed loop system. The problem I am having is that I haven't been able to purge all of the air out of the system and so I get some bounce and give. My question is, how can i get all the air out of the loop and keep it out?
      > > I don't seem to be leaking any oil out bit I seem to be getting air in to the point that it will no longer hold the saw in place when the valve is closed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.I laso started having problems with the saw cutting on an angle to the right about 1/4 inch in a 2 inch cut. it does this with both old and new blades.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > Hotmail: Free, trusted and rich email service. Get it now.
      >
    • Peter V
      Did you take into account that one side of the cylinder has less volume than the other? I.e. the end with the shaft holds less fluid because the shaft takes up
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 1, 2010
        Did you take into account that one side of the cylinder has less volume than the other? I.e. the end with the shaft holds less fluid because the shaft takes up room.
        I thin you need to add a surge pot or something else to hold the excess fluid, otherwise the other end will end up sucking in air to compensate for the volume difference.


               \\\|///
              \\ - - //
               ( @ @ )
        +---oOOo-(_)-oOOo----+
          Peter A. VanDerWal
          Peter_v@...
        +----------Oooo-----+
              oooO (   )
             (   )  ) /
              \ (  (_/
               \_}






        > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
        > From: rca@...
        > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:43:16 +0000
        > Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.
        >
        > I installed a pnumatic ram on my 4x6 bandsaw with tubing running from one port to the other port thru a flow control valve that is thru one way and controled the other forming a closed loop system. The problem I am having is that I haven't been able to purge all of the air out of the system and so I get some bounce and give. My question is, how can i get all the air out of the loop and keep it out?
        > I don't seem to be leaking any oil out bit I seem to be getting air in to the point that it will no longer hold the saw in place when the valve is closed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.I laso started having problems with the saw cutting on an angle to the right about 1/4 inch in a 2 inch cut. it does this with both old and new blades.
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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      • Gary Hallenbeck
        I think you would be correct except, that the end with more volume is forcing fluid into the end with less volume when moving in that direction. In the other
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1, 2010
          I think you would be correct except, that the end with more volume is
          forcing fluid into the end with less volume when moving in that
          direction. In the other direction the smaller volume is forcing oil
          into the large volume, therefore the shaft seal is always under a
          positive pressure. All of the hydraulic down feeds I have seen are
          set up this way and have no resevoir of extra fluid.
          On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:13:07 +0000, you wrote:

          >
          >Did you take into account that one side of the cylinder has less volume than the other? I.e. the end with the shaft holds less fluid because the shaft takes up room.
          >I thin you need to add a surge pot or something else to hold the excess fluid, otherwise the other end will end up sucking in air to compensate for the volume difference.
          >
          >
          > \\\|///
          > \\ - - //
          > ( @ @ )
          >+---oOOo-(_)-oOOo----+
          > Peter A. VanDerWal
          > Peter_v@...
          >+----------Oooo-----+
          > oooO ( )
          > ( ) ) /
          > \ ( (_/
          > \_}
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >> To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
          >> From: rca@...
          >> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:43:16 +0000
          >> Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.
          >>
          >> I installed a pnumatic ram on my 4x6 bandsaw with tubing running from one port to the other port thru a flow control valve that is thru one way and controled the other forming a closed loop system. The problem I am having is that I haven't been able to purge all of the air out of the system and so I get some bounce and give. My question is, how can i get all the air out of the loop and keep it out?
          >> I don't seem to be leaking any oil out bit I seem to be getting air in to the point that it will no longer hold the saw in place when the valve is closed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.I laso started having problems with the saw cutting on an angle to the right about 1/4 inch in a 2 inch cut. it does this with both old and new blades.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >_________________________________________________________________
          >Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
          >http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/
        • Peter V
          Oil doesn t compress or expand (for all intents and purposes) I believe that when going from the small volume to the large volume you creat a vacuum in the
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 1, 2010
            Oil doesn't compress or expand (for all intents and purposes)
             
            I believe that when going from the small volume to the large volume you creat a vacuum in the small volume and it sucks in air around the seal (it's not designed to seal against a vacuum)
             
            I think many of the cylinders designed for this purpose have a built in expansion space next to the large side that is exposed to the air.

                   \\\|///
                  \\ - - //
                   ( @ @ )
            +---oOOo-(_)-oOOo----+
              Peter A. VanDerWal
              Peter_v@...
            +----------Oooo-----+
                  oooO (   )
                 (   )  ) /
                  \ (  (_/
                   \_}





             
            > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
            > From: compressorguy@...
            > Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 11:27:25 -0800
            > Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.
            >
            > I think you would be correct except, that the end with more volume is
            > forcing fluid into the end with less volume when moving in that
            > direction. In the other direction the smaller volume is forcing oil
            > into the large volume, therefore the shaft seal is always under a
            > positive pressure. All of the hydraulic down feeds I have seen are
            > set up this way and have no resevoir of extra fluid.
            > On Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:13:07 +0000, you wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >Did you take into account that one side of the cylinder has less volume than the other? I.e. the end with the shaft holds less fluid because the shaft takes up room.
            > >I thin you need to add a surge pot or something else to hold the excess fluid, otherwise the other end will end up sucking in air to compensate for the volume difference.
            > >
            > >
            > > \\\|///
            > > \\ - - //
            > > ( @ @ )
            > >+---oOOo-(_)-oOOo----+
            > > Peter A. VanDerWal
            > > Peter_v@...
            > >+----------Oooo-----+
            > > oooO ( )
            > > ( ) ) /
            > > \ ( (_/
            > > \_}
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >> To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
            > >> From: rca@...
            > >> Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2010 02:43:16 +0000
            > >> Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Bleeding Hydraulic downfeed question.
            > >>
            > >> I installed a pnumatic ram on my 4x6 bandsaw with tubing running from one port to the other port thru a flow control valve that is thru one way and controled the other forming a closed loop system. The problem I am having is that I haven't been able to purge all of the air out of the system and so I get some bounce and give. My question is, how can i get all the air out of the loop and keep it out?
            > >> I don't seem to be leaking any oil out bit I seem to be getting air in to the point that it will no longer hold the saw in place when the valve is closed. Any help would be greatly appreciated.I laso started having problems with the saw cutting on an angle to the right about 1/4 inch in a 2 inch cut. it does this with both old and new blades.
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ------------------------------------
            > >>
            > >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >
            > >_________________________________________________________________
            > >Hotmail: Trusted email with Microsoft’s powerful SPAM protection.
            > >http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/201469226/direct/01/
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4x6bandsaw/
            >
            > <*> Your email settings:
            > Individual Email | Traditional
            >
            > <*> To change settings online go to:
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/4x6bandsaw/join
            > (Yahoo! ID required)
            >
            > <*> To change settings via email:
            > 4x6bandsaw-digest@yahoogroups.com
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            >
            > <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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            >
            > <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
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            >


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          • Leon Robinson
            This is what I bought for mine, waiting now to get over surgery so I can use it. http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=380853&pCatg=7447
            Message 5 of 25 , Mar 1, 2010
              This is what I bought for mine, waiting now to get over surgery so I can use it.

              http://www.samsclub.com/shopping/navigate.do?dest=5&item=380853&pCatg=7447

              Leon      K5JLR

              Political Correctness is a Political Disease. K5JLR

              --- On Mon, 3/1/10, Glenn N <sleykin@...> wrote:

              From: Glenn N <sleykin@...>
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, March 1, 2010, 12:27 AM

               

              

              Sounds like a good plan.  Be sure to account for the change in balance when the saw is raised to full verticle.  Many a saw has gone over from that.
              Glenn
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson T.
              Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2010 7:13 AM
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan

              After a lot of thinking on this, and my usual "overkill", I have decided to buy a second service cart when it is on sale and combine the two into one saw cart. The top will be turned right side up as you suggested. The saw will be propped onto 4 pieces of 3x4 square tubing cut to 16" and bolted via 4" angle brackets I will make.
               
              The coolant will flow into it and go down a drain in the center. I will punch a depression in the center with my 12T press using the technique Larwyn outlined. The coolant will evacuate the top, leaving it clear. It will go into a second, slide-out drawer under it, into a plastic tub which can be removed for cleaning where it will be filtered and drain into a hose into the recycling tub (empty joint compound tub). One thing that I noticed is that the more shelves, the sturdier and higher capacity raring for these service carts- more shelves= a sturdier unit. I want sturdy because I tend to push this stuff around a lot.
               
              I will replace the angle irons with stronger, longer ones to allow for another shelf.  They are 1 - 1/2x 1-1/2 x 1/8 (or I will go thicker) from SpeedyMetals. com .
               
              Another spare shelf will make a new bottom shelf with a wider wheelbase. 1/4 x7 flat steel plates will be drilled for the casters, then into the new shelf for bolts. This will add 30 pounds of weight on the bottom, lowering the center of gravity and helping to stabilize the cart. The wheels will be 1" further out on either side, further stabilizing things.  I may run a couple of steel angles under the top shelf to further strengthen it.
              Nelson
              Nelson T., Owner
              South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) Lathe Users Group


              --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Glenn N <sleykin@charter. net> wrote:

              From: Glenn N <sleykin@charter. net>
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 5:16 PM

               
              
              Oh I figured it would be on risers to clear the tray?
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson T.
              Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 4:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan

              Had thought of that- but there must have been some reason why we all turned it upside down in the first place- I think it was for extra height for those of us who are tall.  Plus, I don't want to corrode the base that the saw is on with the constant coolant.
               
              Nelson

              Nelson T., Owner
              South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) Lathe Users Group


              --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Glenn N <sleykin@charter. net> wrote:

              From: Glenn N <sleykin@charter. net>
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 11:45 AM

               
              
              Why not turn the shelf back so it makes a pan??
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Nelson T.
              Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 10:08 AM
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan

              Larwyn, that is a great solution- I have a cheapo 12T press from HF I can use. I don't weld or have a brake, so I need to find a pan like a baking pan that I can put in the press.
               
              My concern is also positioning. I can make brackets or a slide out shelf to hold it under the overturned top shelf of the HF service cart I used.  I see some of you have photos indicating the use of plastic trays, but metal is more sturdy.
               

              Nelson
               
              Nelson T., Owner
              South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) Lathe Users Group


              --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Larwyn <larwyn@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: Larwyn <larwyn@yahoo. com>
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 6:31 AM

               
              My drain pan is a structural part of the stand I made. The 16 gauge sheet metal that I used to make the pan was a bit too much for my little sheet metal brake so I ended up turning the edges up with hammer and anvil to form the lip. I notched the corners before bending the lip and welded the corners up with a Mig welder.  I used a drain strainer intended for a wet bar sink as the drain.  In order to countersink the rim of the strainer I had to get a little creative.  I ended up placing a large bearing separator on the table of my 20 ton press (anything with an oversize depression would have worked), I then placed the pan on top of the bearing separator with the hole for the drain centered over the depression of the bearing separator.  I placed a large steel ball, about the size of a tennis ball(from a ball mill), on top of the hole in the pan and then pressed the ball into the depression until it looked right. It worked out great, looks
              professional, and drains all the coolant from the pan.  The coolant will follow the blade to the the point where it contacts the drive wheel so be sure your pan is long enough to catch it.  I use a bit of gasket material with a slit to straddle the blade as a blade wiper, the bearing bracket will hold it in place. Some coolant will get through the wiper though, thus the need for the pan to extend under the drive wheel.

              --- On Thu, 2/25/10, Nelson T. <im_all_thumbz@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Nelson T. <im_all_thumbz@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Thursday, February 25, 2010, 6:46 AM

               

              I checked out various options before asking- a transmission funnel/drip pan, a large baking pan, a turkey roasting pan (rather thin aluminum, not much support, but disposable which is nice), a washing machine drain pan, automotive oil drip pans, and even an old lathe chip tray. The positive about the lathe chip tray is it can go under the whole lathe and add support on the service cart.
               
              Whatever option is used, it has to angle towards the center to drain out the liquid, it has to be able to have a hole in the middle for a drain and strainer ao the used cutting fluid will go down a pvc pipe to my joint compound tub used as a collection tub and be recycled by the HF pump I bought for $10.
               
              A large metal baking pan has good support.  I  can place it into my press and bend the bottom so that the liquid will angle towards the center, then drill a hole for the drain and pipe.

              I will take a look at what others have done....
               
              Nelson
               
               
              Nelson T., Owner
              South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) Lathe Users Group
              http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ southbend10L/

              --- On Wed, 2/24/10, Thomas Armstrong <tommyd47834@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Thomas Armstrong <tommyd47834@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: Re: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 9:44 PM

               

              Nelson I used a turkey roasting pan works great about 2 inches deep.

              --- On Wed, 2/24/10, Nelson T. <im_all_thumbz@ yahoo.com> wrote:

              From: Nelson T. <im_all_thumbz@ yahoo.com>
              Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Coolant Catch Pan
              To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogro ups.com
              Date: Wednesday, February 24, 2010, 10:06 PM

               

              If I make the small pump and tub coolant setup, I need a catch tray under the saw as it rests on the HF service cart. What have you guys used for that?  Baker's pan? Transmission drip pan? Oil Pan? It has to be deep enough to catch the chips, coolant, and be able to have a drain in the middle flowing back to the tub where the pump circulates it.
               
              Nelson

              Nelson T., Owner
              South Bend Heavy 10 (10L) Lathe Users Group
              http://finance. groups.yahoo. com/group/ southbend10L/




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