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Blade driving wheel slipping on axis - is this normal?

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  • hosinsky
    I have a Chinese 4x6 of a type which I think is not sold in the US,
    Message 1 of 10 , May 2, 2013
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      I have a Chinese 4x6 of a type which I think is not sold in the US, http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EBS-100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item35c2187ccb. The wheel that drives the blade slips on the axis with even a slight load, for example the blade joint passing the metal being cut. I have left it for service a couple of times and got it back without this problem being resolved. Now my guarantee time is running out and I want to return it again to the supplier.

      One question though before I make too much noise: might this slipping be some safety feature, that high load stops the blade and it should be this way?

      Thanks
      Goran, Canary Islands
    • wa5cab
      Goran, The exploded view parts lists that come with these Chinese made machines are notorious for leaving out details like set screws and keys. But any kind
      Message 2 of 10 , May 2, 2013
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        Goran,

        The exploded view parts lists that come with these Chinese made machines are notorious for leaving out details like set screws and keys.  But any kind of slip clutch would be shown as it wouldn't be a local hardware store item.  Mine is probably 35 years older than yours but it doesn't have any such thing in it. 

        Unplug the machine and open the blade cover.  Look at the end of the drive shaft where it sticks through the drive wheel.  On mine, the shaft and the wheel have keyways for a square key.  And a set screw in the wheel hub over the keyway.  The two keyways should line up.  If they do not, the square key is missing.  If it is present, the other four possibilities are a missing key in the gear on the other end of the shaft, in the worm gear driving it, or in either one of the two pulleys.  The latter two are easy to check and to fix.  The other two not so much so.  If none of the externally accessible keys are missing, I would return the machine to the seller for replacement or refund, if you can.  If you can't, lower the machine to the horizontal position, put a drip pan under the gearbox to catch any dripping, and remove the side cover.  Inspect the two gears for missing key.  Whichever place has the missing key probably has a damaged shaft, as the assembler probably tightened the set screw down into the keyway in the shaft.

        If there is no keyway visible at the end of any of the shafts, they probably used a woodruff key.  Which one is missing will be more difficult to ID.  And the wheel, gear or pulley at fault may be difficult to remove because of the probably damaged shaft.


        In a message dated 05/02/2013 17:05:48 PM Central Daylight Time, hosinsky@... writes:
        I have a Chinese 4x6  of a type which I think is not sold in the US, http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EBS-100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item35c2187ccb. The wheel that drives the blade slips on the axis with even a slight load, for example the blade joint passing the metal being cut.  I have left it for service a couple of times and got it back without this problem being resolved. Now my guarantee time is running out and I want to return it again to the supplier.

        One question  though before I make too much noise: might this slipping be some safety feature, that high load stops the blade and it  should be this way?

        Thanks
        Goran, Canary Islands


        Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
        wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
        MVPA 9480
      • Alys & John Vreede
        Hi Goran That type of saw is available although not identical from what I ve seen, but the principles of operation are the same for any bandsaw. If I m reading
        Message 3 of 10 , May 2, 2013
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          Hi Goran

          That type of saw is available although not identical from what I’ve seen, but the principles of operation are the same for any bandsaw.

          If I’m reading you right, you say the motor is stalling (motor + gearbox + saw blade stops)when loaded up. Is that correct?

          If just the saw band stops but the drive wheel still turns then tensioning the blade tighter should cure it

          If the saw band and drive wheel stops but the motor is still turning, then the drive belt between motor and gear box needs more tension.

          But if all three (motor + gearbox + saw blade) stop then you’ve exceeded the power output of the motor.  That it stops when something as minor and the blade weld hitting the cut zone, says to me that the motor is not producing the power it should be.  It’s got a 4pole motor in it, if it runs between 1350 and 1425rpm (look on the label plate of the motor) and if one or more of the 4 windings associated with that, is burnt out, then it will run, but not produce normal power and stall too easily.

          With these saws the motor just gets replaced, they don’t rewind them. - jv

           

          From: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com [mailto:4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hosinsky
          Sent: Friday, 3 May 2013 10:06 a.m.
          To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Blade driving wheel slipping on axis - is this normal?

           

           

          I have a Chinese 4x6 of a type which I think is not sold in the US, http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EBS-100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item35c2187ccb. The wheel that drives the blade slips on the axis with even a slight load, for example the blade joint passing the metal being cut. I have left it for service a couple of times and got it back without this problem being resolved. Now my guarantee time is running out and I want to return it again to the supplier.

          One question though before I make too much noise: might this slipping be some safety feature, that high load stops the blade and it should be this way?

          Thanks
          Goran, Canary Islands


          No virus found in this message.
          Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5792 - Release Date: 05/02/13

        • hosinsky
          Hello, The wheel driving the blade stops rotating, the axis coming from the motor keeps turning. The drawings in the manual are not clear enough to see if
          Message 4 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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            Hello,

            The wheel driving the blade stops rotating, the axis coming from the motor keeps turning. The drawings in the manual are not clear enough to see if there is a woodruff key or similar in the axis. The wheel is held on to the axis with a nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still under guarantee, I do not want to use too much force. I am bringing the saw back to the supplier , for the third time, today.

            Goran

            --- In 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com, "Alys & John Vreede" <vreededesign@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi Goran
            >
            > That type of saw is available although not identical from what I've seen,
            > but the principles of operation are the same for any bandsaw.
            >
            > If I'm reading you right, you say the motor is stalling (motor + gearbox +
            > saw blade stops)when loaded up. Is that correct?
            >
            > If just the saw band stops but the drive wheel still turns then tensioning
            > the blade tighter should cure it
            >
            > If the saw band and drive wheel stops but the motor is still turning, then
            > the drive belt between motor and gear box needs more tension.
            >
            > But if all three (motor + gearbox + saw blade) stop then you've exceeded the
            > power output of the motor. That it stops when something as minor and the
            > blade weld hitting the cut zone, says to me that the motor is not producing
            > the power it should be. It's got a 4pole motor in it, if it runs between
            > 1350 and 1425rpm (look on the label plate of the motor) and if one or more
            > of the 4 windings associated with that, is burnt out, then it will run, but
            > not produce normal power and stall too easily.
            >
            > With these saws the motor just gets replaced, they don't rewind them. - jv
            >
            >
            >
            > From: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com [mailto:4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com] On
            > Behalf Of hosinsky
            > Sent: Friday, 3 May 2013 10:06 a.m.
            > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Blade driving wheel slipping on axis - is this normal?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I have a Chinese 4x6 of a type which I think is not sold in the US,
            > http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EBS
            > -100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen
            > <http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EB
            > S-100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item35c2187
            > ccb.> &hash=item35c2187ccb. The wheel that drives the blade slips on the
            > axis with even a slight load, for example the blade joint passing the metal
            > being cut. I have left it for service a couple of times and got it back
            > without this problem being resolved. Now my guarantee time is running out
            > and I want to return it again to the supplier.
            >
            > One question though before I make too much noise: might this slipping be
            > some safety feature, that high load stops the blade and it should be this
            > way?
            >
            > Thanks
            > Goran, Canary Islands
            >
            >
            >
            > _____
            >
            > No virus found in this message.
            > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5792 - Release Date: 05/02/13
            >
          • john baird
            Hi Goran, that is a curious little 4x4 machine, the drive system seems very different to the 4x6, any chance of putting the manual up, for us to have a look
            Message 5 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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              Hi Goran, that is a curious little 4x4 machine, the drive system seems very different to the 4x6, any chance of putting the manual up, for us to have a look at. Hope they resolve the problem for you.
              Regards jb

              --- On Fri, 3/5/13, hosinsky <hosinsky@...> wrote:

              > From: hosinsky <hosinsky@...>
              > Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Blade driving wheel slipping on axis - is this normal?
              > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Friday, 3 May, 2013, 8:03
              > Hello,
              >
              > The wheel driving the blade stops rotating, the axis coming
              > from the motor keeps turning. The drawings in the manual are
              > not clear enough to see if there is a woodruff key or
              > similar in the axis. The wheel is held on to the axis with a
              > nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have
              > not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still
              > under guarantee, I do not want to use too much force. I am
              > bringing the saw back to the supplier , for the third time,
              > today.
              >
              >
            • wa5cab
              Well, taking it back to the seller is probably the wisest thing to do. FYI, I think that you must mean axle instead of axis . Robert D. In a message dated
              Message 6 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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                Well, taking it back to the seller is probably the wisest thing to do.

                FYI, I think that you must mean "axle" instead of "axis".

                Robert D.

                In a message dated 05/03/2013 02:03:37 AM Central Daylight Time, hosinsky@... writes:
                Hello,

                The wheel driving the blade stops rotating, the axis coming from the motor keeps turning. The drawings in the manual are not clear enough to see if there is a woodruff key or similar in the axis. The wheel is held on to the axis with a nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still under guarantee, I do not want to use too much force. I am bringing the saw back to the supplier , for the third time, today.

                Goran


                Robert & Susan Downs - Houston
                wa5cab dot com (Web Store)
                MVPA 9480
              • jim_klessig
                . The wheel is held on to the axis with a nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still
                Message 7 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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                  . “The wheel is held on to the axis with a nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still under guarantee,”
                   
                  I would rather suspect that it is a LEFT HAND thread nut then. Try “tightening” (as your brain will insist) it to see.
                   
                  R James (Jim) Klessig P.E. | Senior Power Systems Engineer |
                  Electrical Reliability Services, Emerson Network Power
                  jim.klessig@..., jim_klessig@...
                  1876 Gwin Rd, Mckinleyville | CA | 95519 | USA
                  T  (707) 839 8765 |Cell (707) 616 5509 | Fx (707) 839 8765
                   
                   
                   
                • hosinsky
                  The nut has a left hand thread. I brought the saw back today. They did not want it to send to service, gave me a new one, saying that if that one does not work
                  Message 8 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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                    The nut has a left hand thread. I brought the saw back today. They did not want it to send to service, gave me a new one, saying that if that one does not work for me the only thing they can do is to give me my money back. Good service from Siemens, not the German company, a local one from Tenerife with one shop here on the Island of La Palma.

                    The saw is different from the standard ones. It uses a variable speed motor marked 1500W. It is the only type which has been offered here at a price less than 250$. I will post a manual when I get hold of a scanner.

                    Goran

                    --- In 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com, <jim.klessig@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > . "The wheel is held on to the axis with a nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still under guarantee,"
                    >
                    > I would rather suspect that it is a LEFT HAND thread nut then. Try "tightening" (as your brain will insist) it to see.
                    >
                    > R James (Jim) Klessig P.E. | Senior Power Systems Engineer |
                    > Electrical Reliability Services, Emerson Network Power
                    > jim.klessig@...<mailto:jim.klessig@...>, jim_klessig@...<mailto:jim_klessig@...>
                    > 1876 Gwin Rd, Mckinleyville | CA | 95519 | USA
                    > T (707) 839 8765 |Cell (707) 616 5509 | Fx (707) 839 8765
                    >
                  • Jerry Durand
                    ... That motor will be a brush type universal motor like an electric drill would have. There should be air vents, keep clear and don t let metal fall in.
                    Message 9 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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                      On 05/03/2013 09:11 AM, hosinsky wrote:
                      > The saw is different from the standard ones. It uses a variable speed motor marked 1500W. It is the only type which has been offered here at a price less than 250$. I will post a manual when I get hold of a scanner.

                      That motor will be a brush type "universal" motor like an electric drill
                      would have. There should be air vents, keep clear and don't let metal
                      fall in. :)

                      The motor in normal use should last about 400 hours which is a lot of
                      cutting but not forever.

                      --
                      Jerry Durand, Durand Interstellar, Inc. www.interstellar.com
                      tel: +1 408 356-3886, USA toll free: 1 866 356-3886
                      Skype: jerrydurand
                    • Alys & John Vreede
                      That s the thing Robert identified that I missed. My saw has a 4.8mm (31/64 I suspect) square key held in place by a set screw on top if it locking the shaft
                      Message 10 of 10 , May 3, 2013
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                        That’s the thing Robert identified that I missed.  My saw has a 4.8mm (31/64” I suspect) square key held in place by a set screw on top if it locking the shaft to the pulley. There is no nut on the end of it. You’d be able to see if yours was supposed to have a key and it was missing by the empty keyways in shaft and pulley.

                        Others I’ve seen have only a set screw with no keyway

                        Some people report having great difficulty in pulling the wheel from the shaft, presumably heat shrunk onto the shaft, but since yours turns, its probably not that hard to remove. 

                        I’d be most surprised if your pulley didn’t have a  set screw in its hub.  

                        If you run out of warranty then using Loctite and a set screw would be a way to fix it - jv

                         

                        From: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com [mailto:4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of hosinsky
                        Sent: Friday, 3 May 2013 7:04 p.m.
                        To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Re: Blade driving wheel slipping on axis - is this normal?

                         

                         

                        Hello,

                        The wheel driving the blade stops rotating, the axis coming from the motor keeps turning. The drawings in the manual are not clear enough to see if there is a woodruff key or similar in the axis. The wheel is held on to the axis with a nut, this hides any cutout for a key in the wheel. I have not been able to loosen this nut and as the saw is still under guarantee, I do not want to use too much force. I am bringing the saw back to the supplier , for the third time, today.

                        Goran

                        --- In 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com, "Alys & John Vreede" <vreededesign@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Goran
                        >
                        > That type of saw is available although not identical from what I've seen,
                        > but the principles of operation are the same for any bandsaw.
                        >
                        > If I'm reading you right, you say the motor is stalling (motor + gearbox +
                        > saw blade stops)when loaded up. Is that correct?
                        >
                        > If just the saw band stops but the drive wheel still turns then tensioning
                        > the blade tighter should cure it
                        >
                        > If the saw band and drive wheel stops but the motor is still turning, then
                        > the drive belt between motor and gear box needs more tension.
                        >
                        > But if all three (motor + gearbox + saw blade) stop then you've exceeded the
                        > power output of the motor. That it stops when something as minor and the
                        > blade weld hitting the cut zone, says to me that the motor is not producing
                        > the power it should be. It's got a 4pole motor in it, if it runs between
                        > 1350 and 1425rpm (look on the label plate of the motor) and if one or more
                        > of the 4 windings associated with that, is burnt out, then it will run, but
                        > not produce normal power and stall too easily.
                        >
                        > With these saws the motor just gets replaced, they don't rewind them. - jv
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com [mailto:4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com] On
                        > Behalf Of hosinsky
                        > Sent: Friday, 3 May 2013 10:06 a.m.
                        > To: 4x6bandsaw@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: [4x6bandsaw] Blade driving wheel slipping on axis - is this normal?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > I have a Chinese 4x6 of a type which I think is not sold in the US,
                        > http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EBS
                        > -100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen
                        > <http://www.ebay.de/itm/04-1020-Bernardo-Metallbandsage-f-mobilen-Einsatz-EB
                        > S-100-B-Bandsage-Metall-/230889651403?pt=Industriemaschinen&hash=item35c2187
                        > ccb.> &hash=item35c2187ccb. The wheel that drives the blade slips on the
                        > axis with even a slight load, for example the blade joint passing the metal
                        > being cut. I have left it for service a couple of times and got it back
                        > without this problem being resolved. Now my guarantee time is running out
                        > and I want to return it again to the supplier.
                        >
                        > One question though before I make too much noise: might this slipping be
                        > some safety feature, that high load stops the blade and it should be this
                        > way?
                        >
                        > Thanks
                        > Goran, Canary Islands
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > _____
                        >
                        > No virus found in this message.
                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        > Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5792 - Release Date: 05/02/13
                        >


                        No virus found in this message.
                        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                        Version: 2012.0.2241 / Virus Database: 3162/5795 - Release Date: 05/03/13

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