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Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

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  • Patsy751@aol.com
    Hi Group. For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don t even have to consider Mr. Borden s death. Let s just consider Mrs. Borden. Lizzie was (by her
    Message 1 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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      Hi Group.
      For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

      Patsy
    • Muriel Arnold
      Patsy: Don t want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at
      Message 2 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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        Patsy:
        Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
        My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
        In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
        Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
        Muriel Arnold
         
        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
        For more information
        muriela@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
        Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

        Hi Group.
        For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

        Patsy


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      • MARIE MILLER
        are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that
        Message 3 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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          are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that paper.please explain if im reading u wrong.no disrespect intended.dennis from toledo
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Muriel Arnold
          Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:07 PM
          To: 40Whacks@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden
           
          Patsy:
          Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
          My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
          In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
          Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
          Muriel Arnold
           
          Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
          For more information
          muriela@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

          Hi Group.
          For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

          Patsy
           
        • PatriciaLu@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:06:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ... Hi Muriel -- Please continue this narrative... Lizzie was in the cellar, someone was
          Message 4 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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            In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:06:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


            I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened.


            Hi Muriel -- Please continue this narrative... Lizzie was in the cellar, someone was killing Abby, Lizzie comes up from the cellar, there's Dad reading the newspaper, and then what happens?

            Pat in NYC
          • Muriel Arnold
            Hi Pat: End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie
            Message 5 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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              Hi Pat:
              End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie Borden case would not have turned into the Crime of the Century.
              Talk about the Luck of the Irish.  Bridget had it in spades.  P.S.  I love destroying theories people come up with.  I had written a chapter on Victoria Lincoln but had not included it in my book.  No use downgrading a writer that many people accept her book as the gospel truth.  But she had managed to irritate me no end.  Like calling Emma as ugly as an old shoe.  That was uncalled for.  Emma never hurt anyone.
              Muriel Arnold
               
              Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
              For more information
              muriela@...
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:55 PM
              Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

              In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:06:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


              I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened.


              Hi Muriel -- Please continue this narrative... Lizzie was in the cellar, someone was killing Abby, Lizzie comes up from the cellar, there's Dad reading the newspaper, and then what happens?

              Pat in NYC


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            • Muriel Arnold
              Dear Dennis: Seems you are another one who believes what happens in one part of the house can be heard all over the house. Actually I had written: Bridget had
              Message 6 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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                Dear Dennis:
                Seems you are another one who believes what happens in one part of the house can be heard all over the house.  Actually I had written: Bridget had called down to Mr. Borden saying they were moving furniture.  I should have written she dropped the water pitcher.  No matter. If he had called up for an explanation, Bridget must have given him one that satisfied him and explains why he was still looking at the newspaper when Lizzie came up from the cellar.
                As usual, no matter what you discover, another question pops up.  Lizzie testified the guest bedroom door was closed when she went up, yet it was open when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up.  Who opened it?  Ask Bridget.
                Muriel Arnold
                 
                Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                For more information
                muriela@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:43 PM
                Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that paper.please explain if im reading u wrong.no disrespect intended.dennis from toledo
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Muriel Arnold
                Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:07 PM
                Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden
                 
                Patsy:
                Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
                My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
                In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
                Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
                Muriel Arnold
                 
                Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                For more information
                muriela@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
                Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                Hi Group.
                For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

                Patsy
                 


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              • Muriel Arnold
                Okay, it was decided that Mrs. Borden must have hit the floor with a thud which must have shook the house. Lizzie, in the cellar, testified she heard nothing.
                Message 7 of 25 , May 21, 2002
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                  Okay, it was decided that Mrs. Borden must have hit the floor with a thud which must have shook the house.  Lizzie, in the cellar, testified she heard nothing.  On the other hand, Bridget, outside washing windows on the opposite side of the house, claimed she heard a thud but paid no attention to it.  I believe that as much as I believe Bridget claiming she heard the front door open and close while she was talking to Mary Doolan, the Kelly maid.  Give me a break.
                  Muriel Arnold
                   
                  Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                  For more information
                  muriela@...
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                  are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that paper.please explain if im reading u wrong.no disrespect intended.dennis from toledo
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Muriel Arnold
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:07 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden
                   
                  Patsy:
                  Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
                  My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
                  In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
                  Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
                  Muriel Arnold
                   
                  Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                  For more information
                  muriela@...
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                  Hi Group.
                  For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

                  Patsy
                   


                  ---WHODUNIT???---

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                • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                  In a message dated 5/21/2002 10:32:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ... What I was curious about what you think happened is... how did Andrew get killed? Do you
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 22, 2002
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                    In a message dated 5/21/2002 10:32:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                    End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie Borden case would not have turned into the Crime of the Century.


                    What I was curious about what you think happened is... how did Andrew get killed? Do you believe Lizzie then went to the barn and the killer (Bridget) then came downstairs and killed Andrew?

                    Pat
                  • Muriel Arnold
                    Hi Pat: Bridget never did go upstairs, the back one that is. As soon as Lizzie left the house, she went up the front stairs, retrieved the murder weapon,
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 22, 2002
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                      Hi Pat:
                      Bridget never did go upstairs, the back one that is.  As soon as Lizzie left the house, she went up the front stairs, retrieved  the murder weapon, came down and killed Mr. Borden.  Lizzie almost caught her when she returned from the barn.
                      Muriel Arnold
                       
                      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                      For more information
                      muriela@...
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:43 AM
                      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                      In a message dated 5/21/2002 10:32:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                      End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie Borden case would not have turned into the Crime of the Century.


                      What I was curious about what you think happened is... how did Andrew get killed? Do you believe Lizzie then went to the barn and the killer (Bridget) then came downstairs and killed Andrew?

                      Pat


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                    • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                      In a message dated 5/22/2002 11:46:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time, ... I m not trying to grill you, in case it reads like I am, just trying to understand how
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 22, 2002
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                        In a message dated 5/22/2002 11:46:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                        Lizzie almost caught her when she returned from the barn.


                        I'm not trying to grill you, in case it reads like I am, just trying to understand how you see it.

                        So, if what you believe is this case, why wouldn't Lizzie have thought Bridget was involved? And why is there no record of Lizzie musing with friends, neighbors, police about whether Bridget was involved? Do you think Lizzie never even considered the possibility of Bridget?

                        And one more question -- what in your mind is Bridget's motive?

                        Pat
                      • Muriel Arnold
                        Hi Pat: It was till nearly the end of the trial that Lizzie made a remark to Mary Livingston (an established author of the time who had known Lizzie s mother,
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 22, 2002
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                          Hi Pat:
                          It was till nearly the end of the trial that Lizzie made a remark to Mary Livingston (an established author of the time who had known Lizzie's mother, Sarah, that she had never harm a single human being and couldn't understand why someone, under her own roof was against her, that she had done favors for in the past.
                          Like Knowlton tried to convince the jurors at the trial:  "There need be no motive, but there was always a cause."  If you got Edward Radin's book, he gave examples for this.
                           
                          Muriel Arnold
                           
                          Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                          For more information
                          muriela@...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:57 AM
                          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                          In a message dated 5/22/2002 11:46:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                          Lizzie almost caught her when she returned from the barn.


                          I'm not trying to grill you, in case it reads like I am, just trying to understand how you see it.

                          So, if what you believe is this case, why wouldn't Lizzie have thought Bridget was involved? And why is there no record of Lizzie musing with friends, neighbors, police about whether Bridget was involved? Do you think Lizzie never even considered the possibility of Bridget?

                          And one more question -- what in your mind is Bridget's motive?

                          Pat


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