Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

Expand Messages
  • Jay Selberg
    Thanks for the lead. I saw this at Amazon.com recently. Just got The Borden Murders: An Annotated Bibliography by Robert A. Flynnn, published by King
    Message 1 of 25 , May 20, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks for the lead.  I saw this at Amazon.com recently.  Just got The Borden Murders:  An Annotated Bibliography by Robert  A. Flynnn, published by King Philip Publishing Co, out of Portland.  I used to be a bookseller and remember meeting him years ago.
       
      Jay
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: RevCOAL
      Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 8:47 AM
      Subject: Re: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

      David Kent's "The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook" is a great source for many contemporary newspaper interviews with people who were never called to testify at the trial....
       
      June
       
       
       
      -------Original Message-------
       
       
      From: Jay Selberg
      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

      Thanks, Muriel.  Is there a source that includes all these interviews not used at trial? 
       
      Jay
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 9:09 PM
      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

      What is missing from Sullivan's book is all the interviews the reporters had from all the people involved at the time it occurred.  And those who were called were not asked the right questions.  It's been accepted as fact that Lizzie sounded the alarm at 11:10.  This is false.  Mrs. Churchill had gone to Hudner's meat market (a two minute walk away from her house).  She was on her way home when she heard the City Hall clock strike 11:00. 
       
      She set her purchase down in her kitchen and saw Lizzie at her screen door.  Lizzie asked her to come over.  She went right over.  Bridget was already gone to fetch Miss Russell.  That means Lizzie sounded the alarm around 11:00, not 11:10.
       
      District Attorney Knowlton gave more than 40 reasons why Lizzie had to be guilty.  I was able to destroy just about every last one of them.  Change the name of the defendant and every one of those reasons fit Bridget Sullivan to perfection.
       
      Every author in the past has treated Knowlton with kid gloves.  So determined was he to prove Lizzie guilty, he refused to even think it could have been anyone other than Lizzie, especially since his "star Witness" was Bridget Sullivan.  Bridget had an answer for anything that was discovered, even if it took her three tries before she got her story straight.
       
      Muriel Arnold
       
      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
      For more information
      muriela@...
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 4:30 PM
      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

      Thanks, Muriel.  What is missing, then, from the Sullivan book?   Are these other people not called to testify relevant-or at least did they give a chance to tell their stories?
       
       I see you wrote a book, and does that have extra information that might exonerate Lizzie, or at least give some reason why we should think of another person involved? 
       
      Thanks,
      Jay
       
       
       

      Hi Jay:
      Sullivan's book was excellent except; he went by the trial records.  What is not in them is:  People who were and backed up Lizzie were not called to testify.  Knowlton had 90 people on his list of witnesses and called about 45.  Take the story of Lizzie accusing Emma of given her away:  The story was told to Edwin Porter.  He was sitting right there at the end of the second row of reporters.  Knowlton did not call him to verify Matron Reagan's story.  Porter did not even mention it in his book in 1893!!!
      Muriel Arnold
       
      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time


      ---WHODUNIT???---

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


      ---WHODUNIT???---

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


      ---WHODUNIT???---

      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
       
      __________________________________________
      Created and best viewed with IncrediMail!
      Get your free copy at: www.incredimail.com
    • Patsy751@aol.com
      Hi Group. For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don t even have to consider Mr. Borden s death. Let s just consider Mrs. Borden. Lizzie was (by her
      Message 2 of 25 , May 21, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Group.
        For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

        Patsy
      • Muriel Arnold
        Patsy: Don t want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at
        Message 3 of 25 , May 21, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          Patsy:
          Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
          My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
          In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
          Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
          Muriel Arnold
           
          Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
          For more information
          muriela@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

          Hi Group.
          For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

          Patsy


          ---WHODUNIT???---

          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        • MARIE MILLER
          are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that
          Message 4 of 25 , May 21, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that paper.please explain if im reading u wrong.no disrespect intended.dennis from toledo
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Muriel Arnold
            Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:07 PM
            To: 40Whacks@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden
             
            Patsy:
            Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
            My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
            In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
            Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
            Muriel Arnold
             
            Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
            For more information
            muriela@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

            Hi Group.
            For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

            Patsy
             
          • PatriciaLu@aol.com
            In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:06:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ... Hi Muriel -- Please continue this narrative... Lizzie was in the cellar, someone was
            Message 5 of 25 , May 21, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:06:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


              I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened.


              Hi Muriel -- Please continue this narrative... Lizzie was in the cellar, someone was killing Abby, Lizzie comes up from the cellar, there's Dad reading the newspaper, and then what happens?

              Pat in NYC
            • Muriel Arnold
              Hi Pat: End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie
              Message 6 of 25 , May 21, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Pat:
                End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie Borden case would not have turned into the Crime of the Century.
                Talk about the Luck of the Irish.  Bridget had it in spades.  P.S.  I love destroying theories people come up with.  I had written a chapter on Victoria Lincoln but had not included it in my book.  No use downgrading a writer that many people accept her book as the gospel truth.  But she had managed to irritate me no end.  Like calling Emma as ugly as an old shoe.  That was uncalled for.  Emma never hurt anyone.
                Muriel Arnold
                 
                Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                For more information
                muriela@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:55 PM
                Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                In a message dated 5/21/2002 12:06:35 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened.


                Hi Muriel -- Please continue this narrative... Lizzie was in the cellar, someone was killing Abby, Lizzie comes up from the cellar, there's Dad reading the newspaper, and then what happens?

                Pat in NYC


                ---WHODUNIT???---

                Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              • Muriel Arnold
                Dear Dennis: Seems you are another one who believes what happens in one part of the house can be heard all over the house. Actually I had written: Bridget had
                Message 7 of 25 , May 21, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Dennis:
                  Seems you are another one who believes what happens in one part of the house can be heard all over the house.  Actually I had written: Bridget had called down to Mr. Borden saying they were moving furniture.  I should have written she dropped the water pitcher.  No matter. If he had called up for an explanation, Bridget must have given him one that satisfied him and explains why he was still looking at the newspaper when Lizzie came up from the cellar.
                  As usual, no matter what you discover, another question pops up.  Lizzie testified the guest bedroom door was closed when she went up, yet it was open when Bridget and Mrs. Churchill went up.  Who opened it?  Ask Bridget.
                  Muriel Arnold
                   
                  Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                  For more information
                  muriela@...
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                  are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that paper.please explain if im reading u wrong.no disrespect intended.dennis from toledo
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Muriel Arnold
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:07 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden
                   
                  Patsy:
                  Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
                  My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
                  In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
                  Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
                  Muriel Arnold
                   
                  Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                  For more information
                  muriela@...
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                  Hi Group.
                  For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

                  Patsy
                   


                  ---WHODUNIT???---

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Muriel Arnold
                  Okay, it was decided that Mrs. Borden must have hit the floor with a thud which must have shook the house. Lizzie, in the cellar, testified she heard nothing.
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 21, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Okay, it was decided that Mrs. Borden must have hit the floor with a thud which must have shook the house.  Lizzie, in the cellar, testified she heard nothing.  On the other hand, Bridget, outside washing windows on the opposite side of the house, claimed she heard a thud but paid no attention to it.  I believe that as much as I believe Bridget claiming she heard the front door open and close while she was talking to Mary Doolan, the Kelly maid.  Give me a break.
                    Muriel Arnold
                     
                    Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                    For more information
                    muriela@...
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 4:43 PM
                    Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                    are u suggesting that mr borden was downstairs in the livingroom and didnt hear his wife being hacked to pieces upstairs?must have really been into that paper.please explain if im reading u wrong.no disrespect intended.dennis from toledo
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Muriel Arnold
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 1:07 PM
                    Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden
                     
                    Patsy:
                    Don't want to burst your bubble but, I claim Lizzie was in the cellar when Mrs. Borden was killed and her father was reading the Providence Journal at the time.  When she came back up, there sat her father, as unconcerned as all get out, so she had no reason to suspect anything had happened. 
                    My sister and I were talking to the woman who was playing the part of Lizzie and three other men in the sitting room of the Borden house one evening.
                    In the parlor, sat our friend Judy, Robello and Billy the caretaker.  Talking was going on in both rooms, yet neither heard what the others were saying  in the other room, as the door between those rooms were closed.
                    Thus, the story that nothing happened in part of the house that was not heard in the rest of the house is false.  Blame Knowlton for that.  He tried everything under the sun to get the jury to find Lizzie guilty.
                    Muriel Arnold
                     
                    Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                    For more information
                    muriela@...
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2002 8:52 AM
                    Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                    Hi Group.
                    For the sake of discussion, I contend that we don't even have to consider Mr. Borden's death.  Let's just consider Mrs. Borden.  Lizzie was (by her own admission) in the house at the time of her murder.  So in a home where noise would certainly travel what the heck did Lizzie think that noise was.....namely a 200 lb woman hitting the deck.  (I am even allowing that she didn't have time to scream.)

                    Patsy
                     


                    ---WHODUNIT???---

                    Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                    In a message dated 5/21/2002 10:32:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, ... What I was curious about what you think happened is... how did Andrew get killed? Do you
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 22, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      In a message dated 5/21/2002 10:32:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                      End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie Borden case would not have turned into the Crime of the Century.


                      What I was curious about what you think happened is... how did Andrew get killed? Do you believe Lizzie then went to the barn and the killer (Bridget) then came downstairs and killed Andrew?

                      Pat
                    • Muriel Arnold
                      Hi Pat: Bridget never did go upstairs, the back one that is. As soon as Lizzie left the house, she went up the front stairs, retrieved the murder weapon,
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 22, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Pat:
                        Bridget never did go upstairs, the back one that is.  As soon as Lizzie left the house, she went up the front stairs, retrieved  the murder weapon, came down and killed Mr. Borden.  Lizzie almost caught her when she returned from the barn.
                        Muriel Arnold
                         
                        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                        For more information
                        muriela@...
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 9:43 AM
                        Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                        In a message dated 5/21/2002 10:32:16 PM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                        End of my narrative is that, had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, there would have been two bodies found there instead of just Abby and the Lizzie Borden case would not have turned into the Crime of the Century.


                        What I was curious about what you think happened is... how did Andrew get killed? Do you believe Lizzie then went to the barn and the killer (Bridget) then came downstairs and killed Andrew?

                        Pat


                        ---WHODUNIT???---

                        Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                      • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                        In a message dated 5/22/2002 11:46:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time, ... I m not trying to grill you, in case it reads like I am, just trying to understand how
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 22, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          In a message dated 5/22/2002 11:46:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                          Lizzie almost caught her when she returned from the barn.


                          I'm not trying to grill you, in case it reads like I am, just trying to understand how you see it.

                          So, if what you believe is this case, why wouldn't Lizzie have thought Bridget was involved? And why is there no record of Lizzie musing with friends, neighbors, police about whether Bridget was involved? Do you think Lizzie never even considered the possibility of Bridget?

                          And one more question -- what in your mind is Bridget's motive?

                          Pat
                        • Muriel Arnold
                          Hi Pat: It was till nearly the end of the trial that Lizzie made a remark to Mary Livingston (an established author of the time who had known Lizzie s mother,
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 22, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Pat:
                            It was till nearly the end of the trial that Lizzie made a remark to Mary Livingston (an established author of the time who had known Lizzie's mother, Sarah, that she had never harm a single human being and couldn't understand why someone, under her own roof was against her, that she had done favors for in the past.
                            Like Knowlton tried to convince the jurors at the trial:  "There need be no motive, but there was always a cause."  If you got Edward Radin's book, he gave examples for this.
                             
                            Muriel Arnold
                             
                            Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                            For more information
                            muriela@...
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2002 11:57 AM
                            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The Legend of Lizzie Borden

                            In a message dated 5/22/2002 11:46:49 AM US Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


                            Lizzie almost caught her when she returned from the barn.


                            I'm not trying to grill you, in case it reads like I am, just trying to understand how you see it.

                            So, if what you believe is this case, why wouldn't Lizzie have thought Bridget was involved? And why is there no record of Lizzie musing with friends, neighbors, police about whether Bridget was involved? Do you think Lizzie never even considered the possibility of Bridget?

                            And one more question -- what in your mind is Bridget's motive?

                            Pat


                            ---WHODUNIT???---

                            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.