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A & E Biography

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  • jayws1019
    A & E Biography is presenting Lizzie Borden now, having started at 8 pm, for anyone interested. I have seen this special before and thought they did a fine,
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 13, 2002
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      A & E Biography is presenting Lizzie Borden now, having started at 8
      pm, for anyone interested. I have seen this special before and
      thought they did a fine, if somewhat sensationalist job. Great
      photos! Coincidentally, I had just started reading the Sullivan
      (Stephen Green Press) book on the murders and am enjoying it.

      Jay
    • Jay Selberg
      Has anyone stayed over at the Lizze Borden Bed and Breakfast? http://www.lizzie-borden.com/ I live in Maine and am dying to go down and stay! At the very
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 13, 2002
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        Has anyone stayed over at the Lizze Borden Bed and Breakfast?
         
         
        I live in Maine and am 'dying' to go down and stay!   At the very least, I will go this summer and do a tour.
         
        Jay
      • PatriciaLu@aol.com
        In a message dated 2/13/2002 9:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Hi Jay -- I have not stayed there, but I ve done the tour. Unless you are a wild and crazy
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 13, 2002
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          In a message dated 2/13/2002 9:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, jselber1@... writes:


          Has anyone stayed over at the Lizze Borden Bed and Breakfast?


          Hi Jay -- I have not stayed there, but I've done the tour. Unless you are a wild and crazy fanatic, I think you'd be more comfortable in a hotel. (Of course, there's nothing wrong with being a wild and crazy fanatic!) I spent a weekend in Fall River two years ago... got there in time to see the collection at the Fall River Historical Society -- note that this is not open on the weekend (or wasn't when I went) and I do think it's worth seeing stuff like a pillowcase from the guest room with blood on it, Lizzie's dinner pail from when she was in jail, a dress of Lizzie's...etc.

          I did the tour of the house which really is fascinating. The tour is silly in parts and hokey in a way led tours can be, but to see the house really is awesome... especially to see how small it is. Then I went to Maplecroft, saw the outside, but it was closed for the season. I went in October and at that time Maplecroft was only open during the summer. And then I went to the cemetery. I think the thing I learned the most... or had the greatest impact on me... well, other than actually seeing the inside of the house... was to see the difference between the world of Second Street and the world "on the hill"... even today, it's a huge difference.

          You really do owe it to yourself to make the tour!
          Pat in NYC
        • PatriciaLu@aol.com
          I think I ve seen this before, and I agree with Jay that I think they did a good job with it. One thing it answered that I had wondered about recently is that
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 13, 2002
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            I think I've seen this before, and I agree with Jay that I think they did a good job with it.

            One thing it answered that I had wondered about recently is that I had read that Lizzie had dropped out of high school when she was 15 which surprised me. I had wondered why, and in tonight's show, they said she was a "poor student". I don't know why, but I'd always thought of her as smart.

            Pat in NYC

          • Frikkie68@aol.com
            Hello Everyone: I was at the B&B for a day tour this past summer, in fact the day before Lizzie s 141st birthday. I found it completely worthwhile but
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 13, 2002
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              Hello Everyone:

                    I was at the B&B for a day tour this past summer, in fact the day before Lizzie's 141st birthday.  I found it completely worthwhile but excruciatingly short...half an hour was NOT long enough for me to take in all I wanted to!  I also went to visit the plot at Oak Grove and managed to obtain xerox copies of the Bordens' original burial records, as well as those of Judge Blaisdell, from the extremely kind caretaker.  I was able to tour Maplecroft that day through a fortunate connection, which was quite an experience and one rarer than I had realized before.  The week of July 18th, 2001 is not a day that will be easily forgotten in my life, and I plan to stay the night at the B&B (possibly both of them) sometime in the summer of '03.

                    As for right now, I just channel surfed over Lizzie's photo on A&E and had a spaz attack; I've been waiting almost 2 years for this Biography to be on, and if I had just checked my e-mail a little earlier I would have caught the whole thing when it started at midnight!
              (Now I retreat to the wall where I will allow my forehead to make friends with it...*SMACK*)  lol

              Michelle
            • Dave Radtke
              I also have not stayed at the B&B, but have taken the tour, and it is a must for all Lizzie fans! Yes, it is a little hokey. And I could definitely tell that
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                I also have not stayed at the B&B, but have taken the tour, and it is a must for all Lizzie fans!
                 
                Yes, it is a little hokey.   And I could definitely tell that our guide was reciting a script, but it is well worth it just the same.    And it has an interesting selection of Lizzie souvenirs.    I myself bought a Lizzie Borden baseball cap!
                 
                -Dave
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:26 PM
                Subject: Re: [40Whacks] A & E Biography

                In a message dated 2/13/2002 9:18:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, jselber1@... writes:


                Has anyone stayed over at the Lizze Borden Bed and Breakfast?


                Hi Jay -- I have not stayed there, but I've done the tour. Unless you are a wild and crazy fanatic, I think you'd be more comfortable in a hotel. (Of course, there's nothing wrong with being a wild and crazy fanatic!) I spent a weekend in Fall River two years ago... got there in time to see the collection at the Fall River Historical Society -- note that this is not open on the weekend (or wasn't when I went) and I do think it's worth seeing stuff like a pillowcase from the guest room with blood on it, Lizzie's dinner pail from when she was in jail, a dress of Lizzie's...etc.

                I did the tour of the house which really is fascinating. The tour is silly in parts and hokey in a way led tours can be, but to see the house really is awesome... especially to see how small it is. Then I went to Maplecroft, saw the outside, but it was closed for the season. I went in October and at that time Maplecroft was only open during the summer. And then I went to the cemetery. I think the thing I learned the most... or had the greatest impact on me... well, other than actually seeing the inside of the house... was to see the difference between the world of Second Street and the world "on the hill"... even today, it's a huge difference.

                You really do owe it to yourself to make the tour!
                Pat in NYC


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              • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                In a message dated 2/14/2002 7:15:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... When I went, so much of the tour script were the similarities between OJ and Lizzie which
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                  In a message dated 2/14/2002 7:15:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, dave2000@... writes:


                  And I could definitely tell that our guide was reciting a script, but it is well worth it just the same


                  When I went, so much of the tour script were the similarities between OJ and Lizzie which really did not interest me. The other thing that bothered me is that the house is not returned to its original (or at least an attempt at the original) style decor. For example, there are lots of pear artwork on the walls in the living room and dining room as a little in joke... and the guide points that out that ha ha Lizzie said she was eating pears so that's why we have this artwork.

                  What's frustrating is that the tour guide who was a high school girl was most interesting when she was speaking as herself, and not doing the script. She said that they "make her" do the script, but she was telling us after the tour about ghostly type happenings in the house, things that happened to her when she'd have to close up for the night when there were no guests.

                  Pat in NYC
                • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                  In a message dated 2/14/2002 12:46:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... When I was there, I didn t realize that it wasn t open for viewing and I felt bad because I
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                    In a message dated 2/14/2002 12:46:25 AM Eastern Standard Time, Frikkie68@... writes:


                    I was able to tour Maplecroft that day through a fortunate connection, which was quite an experience and one rarer than I had realized before.



                    When I was there, I didn't realize that it wasn't open for viewing and I felt bad because I knocked on the door, and this man was just eating his lunch and I felt like I had intruded on him. It is neat to say the word Maplecroft on the front of the house.

                    What was the inside like?

                    Pat in NYC
                  • dave2000@fuse.net
                    I wouldn t have minded the script so much if our tour guide had told other stories too. Our guide was a high school girl also, but it was obvious flair for
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                      In a message dated 2/14/2002 7:15:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, dave2000@... writes:


                      And I could definitely tell that our guide was reciting a script, but it is well worth it just the same


                      When I went, so much of the tour script were the similarities between OJ and Lizzie which really did not interest me. The other thing that bothered me is that the house is not returned to its original (or at least an attempt at the original) style decor. For example, there are lots of pear artwork on the walls in the living room and dining room as a little in joke... and the guide points that out that ha ha Lizzie said she was eating pears so that's why we have this artwork.

                      What's frustrating is that the tour guide who was a high school girl was most interesting when she was speaking as herself, and not doing the script. She said that they "make her" do the script, but she was telling us after the tour about ghostly type happenings in the house, things that happened to her when she'd have to close up for the night when there were no guests.

                      Pat in NYC

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                    • Frikkie68@aol.com
                      ... Don t feel bad. From what I can tell, Robert Dube almost tries to make people feel that way, and doesn t keep regular hours as a day tour or a B &B--it s
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                        I didn't realize that it wasn't open for viewing and I felt bad because I knocked on the door, and this man was just eating his lunch and I felt like I had intruded on him. It is neat to say the word Maplecroft on the front of the house.

                        What was the inside like?



                              Don't feel bad.  From what I can tell, Robert Dube almost tries to make people feel that way, and doesn't keep regular hours as a day tour or a B&B--it's clear that he's most definitely in it for the money.  We had an appointment with him and got there about 10 minutes early, and he practically scolded us because he was arriving at home just as we were getting there.  Our friend who lives in Fairhaven is a high school teacher and was able to get us in because of field trips he has scheduled with his students there twice before, and he told me that when they were there in March of 2000, they woke him up despite having an appointment scheduled more than a month in advance!
                              Despite the personal shortcomings of the owner (and a few of them are pretty hard to ignore), it really is a lovely house.  All of her original woodwork and moldings are still in the front hall, as well as the flooring she installed.  A few rooms, the dining room in particular, still house the wallpaper and curtains that Lizzie chose.  The most impressive rooms are her two bedrooms, particularly the front "winter" bedroom, which was decorated mostly in blue and which has one of the two famous fireplaces in it (the other was in her sitting room, adjoining the second-floor library).  There is a window seat that faces out on the whole street, which she liked to sit in to read and watch the city...sitting in it and sharing her view for a few minutes was indeed a rush for me.  Another surprise is that the bedroom that belonged to Emma before she left in 1905 is not much bigger, in fact I wouldn't think even twice the size, than the one she had at second street (large closet!).  I wondered if she chose that room, or whether it was maybe chosen for her.
                              As far as disappointments go, the owner of the house does not love it as a piece of history as much as the rest of us do.  His furnishings in the house are pieces of his own antique collection, which have mostly an oriental influence and are not all true to the Victorian time period.  He has a lot of clutter strung about, mail and clothing and such, despite the fact that he occupies the third floor of the house.  There were originally three arched doorways in the front foyer, one leading into the dining room, and two into the living room, all of which had the beautiful rich wood trim matching the staircase and the floor, but he filled in one of the living room doors, heaven knows why.  There is also a gaping hole in the ceiling of the small room off of the kitchen, which the servants used to finalize meal preparations before serving them in the dining room.  The glass panel on the door leading into Lizzie's summer bedroom was broken and therefore covered in brown paper and masking tape, and there were lots of electrical cords and basically "junk" all over the back stairs, which made walking tricky.  And the crowning disappointment, which anyone who has been there recently has seen, is the fact that it is practically the only house on the street (which still has almost all of its breathtaking old houses) which looks like it hasn't seen a coat of paint since 1927.
                              Overall my opinion is, if you are a true Lizzie buff, see the house.  Get inside; call Dube 20 times a day if you have to.  It's worth it just to run your hand over the words carved into the fireplaces; to sit in her window seat; to dance across her living room floor; to let your fingers trace the letters of MAPLECROFT, etched into the front steps.  There are a lot of disappointments as to the maintenance of the house given its history and meaning for the town, yes, but it really is not hard to look past them and be able to envision the house, even see the house before you, exactly as Lizzie saw it.

                        Michelle

                        P.S.  I have a few pictures of the house (outside only), as well as some others of my trip that I will share if requested.  E-mail me privately at Frikkie68@....

                      • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                        In a message dated 2/14/2002 11:20:35 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                          In a message dated 2/14/2002 11:20:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Frikkie68@... writes:


                               Don't feel bad.  From what I can tell, Robert Dube almost tries to make people feel that way,


                        • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                          In a message dated 2/14/2002 11:20:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... Sorry, just sent a blank by mistake. Your description of him makes me feel better about it
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                            In a message dated 2/14/2002 11:20:35 AM Eastern Standard Time, Frikkie68@... writes:


                                 Don't feel bad.  From what I can tell, Robert Dube almost tries to make people feel that way,


                            Sorry, just sent a blank by mistake.

                            Your description of him makes me feel better about it as he did border on nasty -- like I was the starstruck fan climbing over the wall at Brad Pitt's house.

                            You say he's in it for the money, but he doesn't seem to be doing much to make money from it. I would have gladly paid for a tour, but he turned me away. I do remember how cluttery the house looked from what I saw of it briefly. That whole little area seems to be in transition -- ranging from meticulously restored houses that you'd see on the cover of a magazine to real dumps.

                            Pat in NYC
                          • Kathleen Chamberlain
                            ... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings! http://greetings.yahoo.com
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                              --- Dave Radtke <dave2000@...> wrote:
                              > I also have not stayed at the B&B, but have taken
                              > the tour, and it is a must for all Lizzie fans!
                              >
                              > Yes, it is a little hokey. And I could definitely
                              > tell that our guide was reciting a script, but it is
                              > well worth it just the same. And it has an
                              > interesting selection of Lizzie souvenirs. I
                              > myself bought a Lizzie Borden baseball cap!
                              >
                              > -Dave
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: PatriciaLu@...
                              > To: 40Whacks@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: Wednesday, February 13, 2002 9:26 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [40Whacks] A & E Biography
                              >
                              >
                              > In a message dated 2/13/2002 9:18:06 PM Eastern
                              > Standard Time, jselber1@... writes:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Has anyone stayed over at the Lizze Borden Bed
                              > and Breakfast?
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi Jay -- I have not stayed there, but I've done
                              > the tour. Unless you are a wild and crazy fanatic, I
                              > think you'd be more comfortable in a hotel. (Of
                              > course, there's nothing wrong with being a wild and
                              > crazy fanatic!) I spent a weekend in Fall River two
                              > years ago... got there in time to see the collection
                              > at the Fall River Historical Society -- note that
                              > this is not open on the weekend (or wasn't when I
                              > went) and I do think it's worth seeing stuff like a
                              > pillowcase from the guest room with blood on it,
                              > Lizzie's dinner pail from when she was in jail, a
                              > dress of Lizzie's...etc.
                              >
                              > I did the tour of the house which really is
                              > fascinating. The tour is silly in parts and hokey in
                              > a way led tours can be, but to see the house really
                              > is awesome... especially to see how small it is.
                              > Then I went to Maplecroft, saw the outside, but it
                              > was closed for the season. I went in October and at
                              > that time Maplecroft was only open during the
                              > summer. And then I went to the cemetery. I think the
                              > thing I learned the most... or had the greatest
                              > impact on me... well, other than actually seeing the
                              > inside of the house... was to see the difference
                              > between the world of Second Street and the world "on
                              > the hill"... even today, it's a huge difference.
                              >
                              > You really do owe it to yourself to make the tour!
                              >
                              > Pat in NYC
                              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > ADVERTISEMENT
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                              > Terms of Service.
                              >
                              >


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                            • Kathleen Chamberlain
                              ... I stayed there in the summer of 1996, for two nights -- one in Lizze s bedroom and one in Abby/Andrew s. All the other guests were my family and friends,
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                                > In a message dated 2/13/2002 9:18:06 PM Eastern
                                > Standard Time, jselber1@... writes:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Has anyone stayed over at the Lizze Borden Bed
                                > and Breakfast?



                                I stayed there in the summer of 1996, for two nights
                                -- one in Lizze's bedroom and one in Abby/Andrew's.
                                All the other guests were my family and friends, so it
                                seemed just like home (um, well, sort of.) Only one
                                room was not rented -- the room in which Abby died, so
                                we were able to visit it.

                                The owners have made every effort to furnish the house
                                exactly as it looked in police and newspaper
                                photographs, although none of the original furnishings
                                remains. (Apparently Lizzie had them stored in a
                                warehouse near the waterfront, and they were destroyed
                                in a flood. Or at least, so the current owners said.)

                                The dress closet at the top of the stairs has been
                                turned into a bathroom, as has the room that once
                                served as "Mrs. Borden's dressing room." Everything
                                was cleaner, newer, and more comfortable than it
                                probably was in Lizzie's day. And the attic
                                (Bridget's room) has been made a lot more pleasant and
                                homey than it ever would have been for Bridget. But
                                then, it's a guest room now.

                                One of the things that struck me about the house is
                                its size. In her book, Victoria Lincoln talks at
                                length about the tiny-ness and flimsiness of the
                                house, "so much smaller than its floor plan
                                indicates," she wrote. I didn't find this to be true
                                at all. It's not a mansion, to be sure, but neither
                                is it the cramped, claustrophobic place that Lincoln
                                makes it out to be. It's just an ordinary-sized
                                working-class house, I'd say.

                                One thing I did not like about my stay there (and
                                there aren't many things; overall, I had an excellent
                                time) is that the atmosphere was too much like a theme
                                park. I mean, I know that the entire concept of a
                                murder-house b&b doesn't exactly lend itself to
                                solemnity, but still. . .people died horribly in that
                                house, and I found it disconcerting to see cabinets of
                                souvenirs for sale and to have hatchet-shaped cookies
                                served at breakfast. I would have liked more
                                seriousness about it all.

                                Other things worth seeing in Fall River were the FR
                                Historical Society and the Maritime Museum, which has
                                a very nice collection of Titanic artifacts. And the
                                Borden family gravesites.

                                Kathleen

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                              • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                                In a message dated 2/14/2002 12:54:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Yes, I agree totally. For those who are fanatics, we want everything as authentic as
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                                  In a message dated 2/14/2002 12:54:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, kathleenchamberlain@... writes:


                                  One thing I did not like about my stay there (and
                                  there aren't many things; overall, I had an excellent
                                  time) is that the atmosphere was too much like a theme
                                  park.  


                                  Yes, I agree totally. For those who are fanatics, we want everything as authentic as possible. For the more casual visitor -- I think the *real* story is so interesting -- and not that hard to understand the basic cast of characters, I don't know why the real story can't be "enough" without making it into a cartoon.

                                  I disagree with you, though, about the size of the house. I live in an apartment in Manhattan so I am not used to huge living spaces, but I found the house way smaller than I thought it would be. I also found the upstairs very small -- especially with no hallways (one room just opens into another) and I just imagined her sitting up there by herself stewing in the summer where it had to be stifling.

                                  Last night's A&E Biography made a big deal out of Lizzie's desire to be part of the Fall River social scene and that was augmented by period photos of dances and picnics. This show also positioned her church work as the only social outlet available to her. The show said that Andrew were do an occasional splurge -- like sending Lizzie to Europe when she was 30 and the show mentioned something I'd thought about... what was it like for Lizzie to tour Europe, eat at restaurants, see all these amazing sights, stay in hotels and then come back and sit in that little bedroom with no hope for anything in the future.

                                  Pat inNYC
                                • Laura James
                                  Hi all, If you missed the biography or can t get cable like me, you can buy it from Amazon. Pretty neat show. Laura
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                                    Hi all,
                                    If you missed the biography or can't get cable like me, you can buy it from
                                    Amazon. Pretty neat show.
                                    Laura
                                  • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 2/14/2002 4:26:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... You can see the house, the cemetery and Maplecroft, plus Lizzie s Church easily in one day
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                                      In a message dated 2/14/2002 4:26:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, jselber1@... writes:


                                      .  I will definitely get down to Fall River to see the house on 2nd St.


                                      You can see the house, the cemetery and Maplecroft, plus Lizzie's Church easily in one day and have time left over to see the Maritime Museum which I also enjoyed.
                                      Then later in the afternoon, I drove to New Bedford which is lovely and went to the Whaling Museum which I really enjoyed. Believe me, I am not *that* energetic... all of these things can be seen in one day at a somewhat leisurely pace.

                                      Pat
                                    • Jay Selberg
                                      Thanks for all the interesting comments about the B and B and Maplecroft. I think I will enjoy my trip to Fall River! I have been reading the Sullivan book
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                                        Thanks for all the interesting comments about the B and B and Maplecroft.  I think I will enjoy my trip to Fall River!  I have been reading the Sullivan book lately and like his style of writing.  Pat in NY's comment about the contrast between the European tour and the oppressive life she lived in Fall River is in line what I think was the reason she did it.  And I do believe she did it.  Is that the consensus of this list?
                                         
                                        I know Evan Hunter's book theorized she and Bridget were lesbian lovers, Arnold Brown suggests a half brother (In a riveting book, I thought, even though I think it is a farfetched idea.)  and I must track down A Private Disgrace.  Is that the book that suggests she had epilepsy and murdered during a fit?
                                         
                                        Jay
                                         
                                      • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 2/14/2002 7:04:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... You can usually get a copy of this for a few dollars on ebay. That s where I got mine. The
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 14, 2002
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                                          In a message dated 2/14/2002 7:04:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, jselber1@... writes:


                                          and I must track down A Private Disgrace.  


                                          You can usually get a copy of this for a few dollars on ebay. That's where I got mine. The claim to fame of Private Disgrace is that the author lived in the town and supposedly was familiar with all the ins and outs of Fall River life. There was someone on this list a month or so ago who claimed that Lincoln was not as knowledgeable as we have thought.

                                          In answer to your question -- of those who have stated an opinion, I would guess that the majority of people here think Lizzie did it -- but those who think she's innocent are passionate in their belief. As for me, I think she did it.

                                          Pat in NY
                                        • Patsy751@aol.com
                                          Well, first of all it just took me awhile to catch up on all the emails, and I am so happy that the group has become active again. In regard to the A & E
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 15, 2002
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                                            Well, first of all it just took me awhile to catch up on all the emails, and I am so happy that the group has become active again.  In regard to the A & E show, I had been channel surfing, and I passed at the end of the show, and saw the photo of the house, and thought "Wait a minute.....I know that house".  I couldn't believe that it got by me.  I would have been heartbroken except for the fact that they repeated it at midnight, and I really did enjoy it.  The only thing that I thought wasn't entirely accurate is when they stated that Lizzie had to "scrimp" to buy a dress.  I believe that she had spending money.  (For example, her father had just bought back the Ferry Street house from her, and she was paid, I think, $5,000)
                                            That alone isn't chump change in those days. 

                                            I have stayed at the Bed and Breakfast, and have already told about my experiences here before, and I am afraid of repeating myself.  I will say that I agree with all the comments made (the hokey comments, the hatchets shaped cookies) . I have mixed feelings about the size of the house.  I do not think it was uncomfortably small for living quarters.  However, I do think it is small if a heavyset woman was butchered there, and anyone in the house tries to claim that they heard nothing.

                                            That brings me to a point that I have been thinking about.  There is always a big deal made about where Lizzie was at the time that her father was murdered.  (In the barn, out of the barn, in the hayloft, eating pears whatever)  Let's pretend for a moment that only Abby was killed.  Lizzie stated that she was in the house,and gives no alibi for that time frame.  So you must accept the premise that she was in the house, and heard nothing.  Come on....I don't see how that could be possible.
                                            How could anyone get by her.  The front door was locked (three times), and Lizzie stated that someone would have had to go by her to get out the back door.
                                            That is why seeing the house is amazing.  Sound must have really traveled through that house.

                                            I loved Lincoln's "Private Disgrace" because of her inside info on the workings of Fall River.  However, I just reread Edmund Pearson's "The Trial of Lizzie Borden"  (printed in 1937) which was wonderful.  I have a copy of all the correspondence that passed between Knowlton's son and Mr. Pearson when he was preparing his first article on Lizzie which appeared in "Studies in Murder"  printed in 1924.  He also visited Fall River during his research when many of the people involved were still alive including Lizzie.  I 'll be anything that she picked up a copy of that book during one of her trips to Boston.

                                            I would recommend the B & B.  Yes, I have a T shirt.  If anyone has any specific question about my stay, I would be more than happy to answer.

                                            Patsy





                                          • Jay Selberg
                                            Thanks, Patsy, for the post! I think you make a good point. I lived in a house in Portland, Maine similar to the house that the murders occured in. A wood
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 15, 2002
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                                              Thanks, Patsy, for the post!  I think you make a good point.  I lived in a house in Portland,  Maine similar to the house that the murders occured in.  A wood frame, average-sized rooms, and you are correct.  Sound traveled in that house!  Even with carpets. 
                                               
                                              I am struck, by recent readings, that the murder occured during a heat wave and Lizzie's trial began during a heat wave.  Can you imagine living 100 years ago and having to wear all those clothes?   I get hot just thinking about it!
                                               
                                              Jay
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Friday, February 15, 2002 6:43 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [40Whacks] A & E Biography

                                              Well, first of all it just took me awhile to catch up on all the emails, and I am so happy that the group has become active again.  In regard to the A & E show, I had been channel surfing, and I passed at the end of the show, and saw the photo of the house, and thought "Wait a minute.....I know that house".  I couldn't believe that it got by me.  I would have been heartbroken except for the fact that they repeated it at midnight, and I really did enjoy it.  The only thing that I thought wasn't entirely accurate is when they stated that Lizzie had to "scrimp" to buy a dress.  I believe that she had spending money.  (For example, her father had just bought back the Ferry Street house from her, and she was paid, I think, $5,000)
                                              That alone isn't chump change in those days. 

                                              I have stayed at the Bed and Breakfast, and have already told about my experiences here before, and I am afraid of repeating myself.  I will say that I agree with all the comments made (the hokey comments, the hatchets shaped cookies) . I have mixed feelings about the size of the house.  I do not think it was uncomfortably small for living quarters.  However, I do think it is small if a heavyset woman was butchered there, and anyone in the house tries to claim that they heard nothing.

                                              That brings me to a point that I have been thinking about.  There is always a big deal made about where Lizzie was at the time that her father was murdered.  (In the barn, out of the barn, in the hayloft, eating pears whatever)  Let's pretend for a moment that only Abby was killed.  Lizzie stated that she was in the house,and gives no alibi for that time frame.  So you must accept the premise that she was in the house, and heard nothing.  Come on....I don't see how that could be possible.
                                              How could anyone get by her.  The front door was locked (three times), and Lizzie stated that someone would have had to go by her to get out the back door.
                                              That is why seeing the house is amazing.  Sound must have really traveled through that house.

                                              I loved Lincoln's "Private Disgrace" because of her inside info on the workings of Fall River.  However, I just reread Edmund Pearson's "The Trial of Lizzie Borden"  (printed in 1937) which was wonderful.  I have a copy of all the correspondence that passed between Knowlton's son and Mr. Pearson when he was preparing his first article on Lizzie which appeared in "Studies in Murder"  printed in 1924.  He also visited Fall River during his research when many of the people involved were still alive including Lizzie.  I 'll be anything that she picked up a copy of that book during one of her trips to Boston.

                                              I would recommend the B & B.  Yes, I have a T shirt.  If anyone has any specific question about my stay, I would be more than happy to answer.

                                              Patsy







                                              ---WHODUNIT???---

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                                            • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                                              In a message dated 2/15/2002 6:47:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... I thought she said she was ironing handkerchiefs in the kitchen. Pat in NYC
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 15, 2002
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                                                In a message dated 2/15/2002 6:47:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Patsy751@... writes:


                                                Lizzie stated that she was in the house,and gives no alibi for that time frame.  



                                                I thought she said she was ironing handkerchiefs in the kitchen.

                                                Pat in NYC
                                              • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                                                In a message dated 2/15/2002 6:47:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... What about the A&E statement that Lizzie was a known shoplifter ? Do you think that s true?
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 15, 2002
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                                                  In a message dated 2/15/2002 6:47:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, Patsy751@... writes:


                                                  The only thing that I thought wasn't entirely accurate is when they stated that Lizzie had to "scrimp" to buy a dress.


                                                  What about the A&E statement that Lizzie was a "known shoplifter"? Do you think that's true?

                                                  Pat
                                                • Patsy751@aol.com
                                                  In a message dated 02/15/2002 10:01:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Right. What I should have stated more clearly was that she gave no outside the house
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Feb 16, 2002
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                                                    In a message dated 02/15/2002 10:01:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, PatriciaLu@... writes:


                                                    I thought she said she was ironing handkerchiefs in the kitchen


                                                    Right.  What I should have stated more clearly was that she gave no "outside the house" alibi.  She puts herself between the murderer and the only possible escape route.  So that means, of course, that the murderer remained in the house with the intention of killing Andrew or not having the possibility to escape before he came home. 

                                                    Patsy
                                                  • Patsy751@aol.com
                                                    It was absolutely true that Lizzie was a shoplifter. It was proven later in life when she was involved with the Tilden and Thurber incident. She settled this
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Feb 16, 2002
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                                                      It was absolutely true that Lizzie was a shoplifter.  It was proven later in life when she was involved with the Tilden and Thurber incident.  She settled this out of court.

                                                      Patsy
                                                    • kriegerg69@aol.com
                                                      I had recorded the A&E Bio when it originally aired, but watched the repeat anyway because it was so good. Seeing it again, and paying attention to the facts
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Mar 12 2:56 PM
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                                                        I had recorded the A&E Bio when it originally aired, but watched the repeat anyway because it was so good. Seeing it again, and paying attention to the facts presented in comparison to the Elizabeth Montgomery movie, made me realize that the movie was actually pretty accurate in presenting the story.

                                                        Greg
                                                        The Legend of Lizzie Borden
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