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Abby's murder

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  • Jeffrey K. Tesch
    Good point by Patsy. Lizzie was alone in that gaunt little house with the motive, means, and opportunity to murder a woman she despised. Case Closed! The
    Message 1 of 18 , May 9, 2001
      Good point by Patsy.

      Lizzie was alone in that gaunt little house with the motive, means, and
      opportunity to murder a woman she despised. Case Closed!

      The killing of Abby was an orgasm of hate - 19 blows to the head while
      astride the victim. A male assailant would have known that 2 or 3 blows was
      enough.

      Lizzie claimed to be downstairs most of the morning, except when she took
      some laundry up (and killed Abby - read Victoria Lincoln on this). Like
      Patsy said, anyone who has been in that house has a clear understanding of
      the logistics.

      Group - allow me to repeat. If you want a murder mystery, study the
      Lindbergh case or the Kennedy assassination. Those of you who can't accept
      the obvious - that Lizzie was the sole assassin - have contracted the same
      myopia that Lizzie counted on from her peers when she did the deed.

      Sorry to be such a zealot, but I'm tired of rehashing the weather, Morse's
      whereabouts, or the endless line of people waiting outside to dispatch the
      Bordens when Lizzie beckoned.

      Let's hear some discussion about how she did it and why she got away with
      it.

      JT

      To believe OJ Simpson guilty is to believe Lizzie guilty. I'd like to hear
      everyone's personal verdict in the Simpson case.
    • YnrChyldzWyld
      A tad testy, aren t we? June
      Message 2 of 18 , May 9, 2001
        >
        A tad testy, aren't we?
         
         
        June
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      • Patsy751@aol.com
        I believe that it is possible that the hatchet that was found on the rooftop of a neighboring barn long after the fact could have been the murder weapon. It
        Message 3 of 18 , May 10, 2001
          I believe that it is possible that the hatchet that was found on the rooftop
          of a neighboring barn long after the fact could have been the murder weapon.
          It had been new and had the gilt on it which indicated that it had been new
          before being exposed to the elements. I believe that it was subsequently
          lost.

          I believe that the only part Bridget played in this ordeal was her knowledge
          of the degree of animosity that exsisted between Lizzie (and Emma) against
          Abby. (Hence the almost deathbed confession). I think the motive was
          personal hatred against Abby and Andrew's money possibly finding it's way
          into Abby's pocket.
          How much do we really know about how Andrew felt about Abby? Maybe he had
          very tender feelings towards her and (knowing his daughters reaction to
          gifting Abby with half the house for her sister) felt that they would not
          take care of her when he died. Therefore, maybe he decided to make definite
          provisions for her....that did not benefit L and E. I don't even believe
          that it had to be a great deal of his estate. However, I am sure that to
          Lizzie and Emma wouldn't have wanted her to receive one red cent.

          Patsy
        • kathleen chamberlain
          ... I ve always thought Lizzie did it, or certainly knew who did. It s just about possible to put her outside the frame for Andrew s murder, but I see no way
          Message 4 of 18 , May 10, 2001
            >Let's hear some discussion about how she did it and why she got away with
            >it.
            >
            >JT


            I've always thought Lizzie did it, or certainly knew who did. It's just
            about possible to put her outside the frame for Andrew's murder, but I see
            no way to absolve her from at least some participation in Abby's.

            Yet I have trouble with theories of multiple murderers; I'm very skeptical
            about people's ability to keep such conspiracies to themselves over time.
            So, while I see the physical possibility that Bridget could have been
            involved, I don't find the idea very convincing. (Although she certainly
            could have been an accessory after the fact.) And, since it doesn't seem
            possible for B. to have acted alone, that leaves Lizzie.

            But still. Still. I remain stumped by two issues: the dress and the
            weapon. Alice Russell's dress testimony seems fairly conclusive to me -- it
            would take a lot to convince me that the dress Lizzie burned was *not* the
            murder dress. But I'm still not sure where she hid it. Victoria Lincoln's
            explanation (that she hid it *under* heavy winter dresses in the back of the
            dress closet) is the most convincing I've seen so far. But it seems very
            audicious and even creative, while the Lizzie who emerges from trial and
            inquest transcripts seems not to have been either. She seems to have been
            such a conventional thinker that I have a hard time picturing her taking
            such daring route. Of course, it may have been an act of desperation that
            just happened to work.

            And then there is the weapon. Lincoln (and others) believed that the
            hatchet now owned by the Fall River Historical Society was the murder
            weapon. But I read somewhere (perhaps in the book "40 Whacks") about
            testimony that suggested that the murder hatchet had to be new -- that gilt
            paint, typical of manufacturer's names stamped on new hardware, had been
            found in Abby's wounds. If this is true, then the case for the Historical
            Society hatchet being the murder weapon falls apart. And even if it *were*
            the weapon, where the hell did Lizzie hide it? Lincoln suggests the tall
            chamber pot, but this doesn't seem very secure to me, certainly not in the
            long term. Others have suggested that Bridget smuggled it out, which is
            possible, too, but. . wow. Would a timid Irish servant girl really take
            such a risk?

            So -- I'd like to hear others' thoughts on what happened to the weapon.


            JT also wrote --

            >>The killing of Abby was an orgasm of hate - 19 blows to the head while
            astride the victim. A male assailant would have known that 2 or 3 blows was
            enough.>>

            I don't think gender has anything at all to do with it. Men are fully
            capable of killing in an "orgasm of hate," too. (Did any men hate Abby so
            much? Who knows? That's beside the point.) We can't really draw any
            conclusions about the sex of the murderer based on the number of blows.


            Kathleen
          • Ynr Chyldz Wyld
            From: kathleen chamberlain ... Ah, that s the caveat upon which more than a century of speculation has occurred, and which will continue to
            Message 5 of 18 , May 10, 2001
              From: kathleen chamberlain <krchambe@...>
              >I've always thought Lizzie did it, or certainly knew who did.

              Ah, that's the caveat upon which more than a century of speculation has
              occurred, and which will continue to occur seemingly forever, unless
              sometime in the future some unknown document surfaces which sheds more light
              on the matter....

              I too believe that Lizzie at least KNEW more than she admitted...or perhaps
              THOUGHT she knew more, and was trying to protect the person she thought
              actually did it.

              As I've said before, I'm quite willing to also accept that Lizzie did it
              solely on her own...but no one so far has presented me with anything
              convincing as to HOW she could have done so and not gotten any blood on
              herself or her clothes...

              And the suspicious behavior of the other players in the tragedy leads me to
              suspect that there was something more specific occurring in and around the
              Borden household in the spring and summer of 1892 than just continued
              animosity of the Borden sisters towards their stepmother, and if one could
              discern just WHAT it was that was 'going down', one would go a long way to
              finding out the true motive(s) for the duel murders...


              >I don't think gender has anything at all to do with it. Men are fully
              >capable of killing in an "orgasm of hate," too. (Did any men hate Abby so
              >much? Who knows? That's beside the point.)

              Not really. It could be very much to the point, if one could show that
              someone other than the Borden sisters for some reason didn't care too highly
              for Abby.

              We've had recent discussion on the supposed 'myth' of the weather on the day
              of the murders...I've come to find that there seems to have been a myth
              woven regarding what sort of person Abby Durfee Borden was. The common
              perception of her, based on the viewpoint espoused by modern authors, is
              that she was little more than a doormat.

              And yet when one reads the contemporary accounts recreated in "The Lizzie
              Borden Sourcebook", a different sort of Abby emerges. Quite a few people
              are quoted regarding their affection for her, and it seems that Abby got out
              and socialized much more than Victoria Lincoln, et al, would have us
              believe. Indeed, Abby emerges as a much more assertive and energetic
              individual than modern authors would have us believe...in fact, she indeed
              emerges AS an INDIVIDUAL (as opposed to being little more than Andrew's
              shadow)...a person with a life of her own, and who seems quite capable of
              creating relationships outside of the immediate Borden family that are
              either strongly affectionate or strongly animous...

              According to one of the quotes in The Sourcebook, someone who described
              themselves as a good friend of Abby's claimed that for some weeks prior to
              the murders, Abby had been stating (almost bragging, according to this
              account), that she was soon to come into quite a bit of money, she also
              supposedly mentioned that Andrew Borden was seeing to it that she would be
              quite well taken care of if anything happened to him.

              Now if this was true (not only that Abby was going around saying it, but
              that what she was saying was true), it obviously doesn't remove either
              Lizzie or Emma from the list of suspects...but it doesn't automatically make
              Lizzie the sole culprit, either. There could have been any number of people
              who, learning of what Andrew planned to do, may have felt that Lizzie and
              Emma were getting a raw deal, especially if Abby were to come out with the
              better end of the deal should Andrew pass away. If someone was especially
              fond of the Borden sisters and felt that Abby was going to end up with
              something that should rightfully go to Lizzie and Emma -- say, the Swansea
              farm that had belonged to their mother -- this person may have felt that
              Abby had in fact 'stolen' something that didn't legally or morally belong to
              her, and felt that she needed to be 'done in' both as a favor for Lizzie and
              Emma, and to be punished for daring to take what rightfully belonged to the
              Borden sisters. And such a person may indeed have had such anger and hatred
              towards her for doing that, that they would have savagely continued to whack
              her with that hatchet well after the necessary 2 or so blows...



              June
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            • Patsy751@aol.com
              I would also like to add that as we heard throughout the O.J. case, murder with a knife (hatchet) is usually a very personal affair. This was not a case of
              Message 6 of 18 , May 10, 2001
                I would also like to add that as we heard throughout the O.J. case, murder
                with a knife (hatchet) is usually a very personal affair. This was not a
                case of someone just wanting someone dead....this was hatred pure and simple.

                Patsy
              • YnrChyldzWyld
                Yes, it would be interesting to see what an FBI Profiler would come up with using the details of the Borden murders.... June ... From: Patsy751@aol.com Date:
                Message 7 of 18 , May 10, 2001
                  >
                  Yes, it would be interesting to see what an FBI Profiler would come up with using the details of the Borden murders....
                   
                   
                  June
                   
                  -------Original Message-------
                   
                  Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 05:28:41 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Abby's murder
                   
                  I would also like to add that as we heard throughout the O.J. case, murder
                  with a knife (hatchet) is usually a very personal affair. This was not a
                  case of someone just wanting someone dead....this was hatred pure and simple.

                  Patsy

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                • Autumn
                  I agree completely JT, this not a who done it it is a how it was done just the same as the O.J. case. I say guilty for both O.J. and Lizzie. My interest
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 10, 2001
                    I agree completely JT, this not a "who done it" it is
                    a "how it was done" just the same as the O.J. case. I
                    say "guilty" for both O.J. and Lizzie. My interest is
                    in how and where in both cases they were able to get
                    rid of the murder weapons and the bloody clothes.

                    Autumn

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                  • Jeffrey K. Tesch
                    June wrote: Yes, it would be interesting to see what an FBI Profiler would come up with using the details of the Borden murders.... +++Hey June, former FBI
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                       
                      June wrote:

                       
                      Yes, it would be interesting to see what an FBI Profiler would come up with using the details of the Borden murders....
                       
                       
                      +++Hey June, former FBI profiler John Douglas does just that in his book "Cases That Haunt Us" which I mentioned in a previous post.  His logical verdict:  Lizzie did it.
                       
                      Group, sorry if I got a bit testy as June noted. 
                       
                      I've probed in depth around a thousand murder cases. My true crime library takes up a whole room in our house, and I've published several artricles (anyone ever hear of the 1966 "Cincinnati Strangler" case - fascinating story - still unsolved with a very good suspect - I did a national feature on that one)
                       
                      My point:  I like to take a stand.  I weigh the evidence without bias and issue a verdict just like a jury.  And I stick to it.
                       
                      I get a little passionate about the Borden case because of all this revisionist history.  Yet it always comes down to MMO - Motive, Means & Opportunity.  And I'm sure that modern forensics would have convicted our dear girl.
                       
                      I have a copyrighted list - "40 reasons why Lizzie took her whacks" - that I've been threatening to post.  It's 40 strands of Lizzie's guilt woven into a very strong rope.  Someone (June perhaps) could cut away ten strands or so, but you're still left with a very strong rope.  This list is similar in tone to Vincent Bugliosi's "100 Percent Guilty" - 100 reasons why OJ did it".
                       
                      I still have tremendous sympathy for Lizzie.  Allow me to quote Agnes DeMille's book as she describes Lizzie watching Abby go up to the guest room:
                       
                      "She watches, listens and decides, unloving, unloved, circumspect, religious, podgy, sulky, and implacable.  The world falls apart and cracks open before her simple 'Give me.' ...Two hours of brisk activity in that closed and sultry house and as a reward, The World!"
                       
                      Lizzie is at once a sympathetic yet infamous character.  It took years for her to whip her wicked little emotions into a frenzy and take the hatchet to Abby.  And as V. Lincoln points out, the murder of Andrew was "the stuff of Greek tradgedy", a furtive peek around the corner killing done to preserve Andrew's love and create the illusion of a maniac on the loose.  And it worked!
                       
                      It's like Lizzie's inner voice said "Go for it, Girl!".  I honor and respect her memory.  But Lizzie as the wrongly accused innocent doesn't resonate.  It ruins the whole story...
                       
                      JT  
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      -------Original Message-------
                       
                      Date: Thursday, May 10, 2001 05:28:41 PM
                      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Abby's murder
                       
                      I would also like to add that as we heard throughout the O.J. case, murder
                      with a knife (hatchet) is usually a very personal affair. This was not a
                      case of someone just wanting someone dead....this was hatred pure and simple.

                      Patsy

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                    • Jeffrey K. Tesch
                      ... Autumn is right on the money! I know they both did it, but it confounds me how they facilitated the logistics. But don t confuse my consternation with a
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                        Autumn wrote:



                        >I agree completely JT, this not a "who done it" it is
                        >a "how it was done" just the same as the O.J. case. I
                        >say "guilty" for both O.J. and Lizzie. My interest is
                        >in how and where in both cases they were able to get
                        >rid of the murder weapons and the bloody clothes.
                        >
                        >Autumn



                        Autumn is right on the money!

                        I know they both did it, but it confounds me how they facilitated the
                        logistics. But don't confuse my consternation with a presumption of
                        innocence. As any good detective knows, there are always loose ends in a
                        murder case that can never be explained.

                        JT
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jeffrey K. Tesch
                        ... +++beg to differ. If you re not having lunch, check out the autopsy photo of the back of Abby s head in The Knowlton Papers . These blows were
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                          >Kathleen wrote:
                          >
                          >>
                          >I don't think gender has anything at all to do with it. Men are fully
                          >capable of killing in an "orgasm of hate," too. (Did any men hate Abby so
                          >much? Who knows? That's beside the point.) We can't really draw any
                          >conclusions about the sex of the murderer based on the number of blows.
                          >
                          >


                          +++beg to differ. If you're not having lunch, check out the autopsy photo
                          of the back of Abby's head in "The Knowlton Papers". These blows were
                          incredibly weak and misguided, yet hideously persistent. This gruesome
                          picture speaks volumes about the killer.

                          If a man had struck 19 blows her head would have been chopped to ribbons and
                          her skull completely fractured. This was noted by investigators at the time
                          and at trial.

                          Also check out the picture of Andrew on the coroner's gurney in the sitting
                          room (same book). wow...

                          JT
                        • YnrChyldzWyld
                          ... Well, one of the things that intrigues me about the Borden murders are all the discrepancies in the case that point to at least complicity on the part of
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                            On Thu, 10 May 2001, Autumn wrote:
                            >I agree completely JT, this not a "who done it" it is
                            >a "how it was done" just the same as the O.J. case.

                            Well, one of the things that intrigues me about the Borden murders are
                            all the discrepancies in the case that point to at least complicity on
                            the part of any number of people besides Lizzie...

                            And one of the reasons I joined this list was for the opportunity to
                            discuss ALL of the aspects of the case.

                            If a few people are now going to dictate that the only posts ALLOWED here
                            are those that accept some 'party line' of
                            Lizzie-did-it-and-did-it-alone, then I'm outta here...



                            June
                          • kathleen chamberlain
                            ... Yes, I ve seen Abby s autopsy photo -- quite a shocker, you re right. I first saw it at the Borden conference in 1992, and it made me understand and pity
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                              At 07:17 AM 05/11/2001 -0600, you wrote:
                              >
                              >>Kathleen wrote:
                              >>
                              >>>
                              >>I don't think gender has anything at all to do with it. Men are fully
                              >>capable of killing in an "orgasm of hate," too. (Did any men hate Abby so
                              >>much? Who knows? That's beside the point.) We can't really draw any
                              >>conclusions about the sex of the murderer based on the number of blows.
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >+++beg to differ. If you're not having lunch, check out the autopsy photo
                              >of the back of Abby's head in "The Knowlton Papers". These blows were
                              >incredibly weak and misguided, yet hideously persistent. This gruesome
                              >picture speaks volumes about the killer.

                              Yes, I've seen Abby's autopsy photo -- quite a shocker, you're right. I
                              first saw it at the Borden conference in 1992, and it made me understand and
                              pity Abby as a victim in a way that I hadn't been able to before, when I'd
                              seen only her posed studio photo.


                              >If a man had struck 19 blows her head would have been chopped to ribbons and
                              >her skull completely fractured. This was noted by investigators at the time
                              >and at trial.

                              Ah, the *nature* of the blows is something else. We had been speaking
                              previously about the *number* of them. And, while it's certainly true that
                              men generally have greater strength than women, and while I think it can be
                              reasonable to draw inferences based on such generalizations, they aren't
                              conclusive. I can imagine a man's blows also being "weak and misguided" --
                              not necessarily because of lack of strength, but just because of the
                              psychology involved. Even in a spasm of hatred, the actual act of
                              bludgeoning someone to death with a hatchet must take its mental toll and
                              could easily account for one's not proceeding as firmly as one would if
                              tackling, say, a cord of wood. Conversely, a completely shattered skull
                              would not have conclusively indicated a male axe wielder, either. I can
                              swing a pretty mean axe myself (on wood, at least. Firewood. That's the
                              only thing I chop -- wood. Just wood. I swear <g>)

                              Also, I want to second what June said, about being able to put forth any
                              point of view on this list, even if they infuriate someone else. I
                              understand your position, JT; it can be frustrating to read, over and over
                              again, arguments that seem illogical to you. But there's always the
                              "delete" button. I'd just hate to have this list become restrictive. I've
                              seen it happen in other lists. I used to belong to a Titanic list (this was
                              before the movie, when most of us on the list were serious Titanic buffs,
                              not people who wanted to swoon over Leonardo DiCaprio), and the anger level
                              there would have astounded you. Some topics got so incendiary that most of
                              us were afraid even to bring them up, lest another battle erupt.

                              I don't want that to happen here. I want to hear all the Lizzie theories --
                              yep, even ones about her supposedly insane illegitimate half-brother <g>

                              I'd like to talk a little further about the "hatchet on the woodshed"
                              theory. I've never quite been able to pin this down; what I've read has
                              seemed the stuff of legend rather than fact. Anyone have any details, or a
                              reliable source?

                              Kathleen
                            • Patsy751@aol.com
                              In a message dated 05/11/2001 9:28:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, revcoal@connix.com writes:
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                                In a message dated 05/11/2001 9:28:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                revcoal@... writes:

                                << If a few people are now going to dictate that the only posts ALLOWED here
                                are those that accept some 'party line' of
                                Lizzie-did-it-and-did-it-alone, then I'm outta here... >>

                                I believe that Lizzie is guilty. However, she simply could have opened the
                                door to allow another person in to commit the actual murders for her.

                                Patsy
                              • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                                In a message dated 5/11/01 1:02:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@aol.com writes: I do too, and always have, but I
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                                  In a message dated 5/11/01 1:02:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@...
                                  writes:

                                  << I believe that Lizzie is guilty. >>

                                  I do too, and always have, but I do think about John Morse's involvement and
                                  also about the motive. I was looking in the Knowlton Papers book this morning
                                  after JT's email... and I was also struck by two photos of Lizzie's block
                                  from 1893... it really is a "working class" neighborhood... I don't mean that
                                  in a classist way, but I wonder how much their living situation just drove
                                  her nuts. I tend to think that's a crucial ingredient. I was struck by the
                                  difference when I was in Fall River... the difference between their house and
                                  the neighborhood of Maplecroft.

                                  I think, before I saw it, I thought of 92 Second Street as just a "nice
                                  little neighborhood" and "up on the hill" as the rich folk's section... but
                                  it's more than that -- really two different worlds.

                                  I did look at the gruesome photos of Abby's head and Andrew ... there's one
                                  of Andrew laid out in the living room after his autopsy... wonder what Lizzie
                                  was doing during that time... I guess just in her room...

                                  Pat
                                • damlarry
                                  June; I agree, let s keep looking and researching and come up with some different answers. Who really knows, I still need to be convinced that OJ really did
                                  Message 16 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                                    June;

                                    I agree, let's keep looking and researching and come up with some different
                                    answers. Who really knows, I still need to be convinced that OJ really did
                                    it. If I was on the jury I would have found him NOT GUILTY.

                                    Larry


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "YnrChyldzWyld" <revcoal@...>
                                    To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 6:23 AM
                                    Subject: [40Whacks] "Approved Subjects" (was: Abby's murder)


                                    > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Autumn wrote:
                                    > >I agree completely JT, this not a "who done it" it is
                                    > >a "how it was done" just the same as the O.J. case.
                                    >
                                    > Well, one of the things that intrigues me about the Borden murders are
                                    > all the discrepancies in the case that point to at least complicity on
                                    > the part of any number of people besides Lizzie...
                                    >
                                    > And one of the reasons I joined this list was for the opportunity to
                                    > discuss ALL of the aspects of the case.
                                    >
                                    > If a few people are now going to dictate that the only posts ALLOWED here
                                    > are those that accept some 'party line' of
                                    > Lizzie-did-it-and-did-it-alone, then I'm outta here...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > June
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ---WHODUNIT???---
                                    >
                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Autumn
                                    I SAID I agreed with JT, I don t see where anywhere myself or anyone else said only certains posts were allowed. I also thought that we were ALL entitled to
                                    Message 17 of 18 , May 11, 2001
                                      I SAID I agreed with JT, I don't see where anywhere
                                      myself or anyone else said only certains posts were
                                      allowed. I also thought that we were ALL entitled to
                                      our opinions. The WHOLE thing is interesting, in
                                      particular I stressed that I was interested in what
                                      happened to the bloody clothes and weapon. Don't know
                                      what the "party line" is or that there was one. I
                                      intend to post my opinion and that is what it is "just
                                      my opinion". If people don't agree or don't want to
                                      read it, then just skip over it.:-)

                                      Autumn


                                      " On Thu, 10 May 2001, Autumn wrote:
                                      >I agree completely JT, this not a "who done it" it is
                                      >a "how it was done" just the same as the O.J. case.

                                      On Friday, 11 May 2002, June wrote:
                                      If a few people are now going to dictate that the only
                                      posts ALLOWED here
                                      are those that accept some 'party line' of
                                      Lizzie-did-it-and-did-it-alone, then I'm outta here...
                                      June"

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                                    • mghn@optonline.net
                                      If I grow up I want to be just like Jeff.
                                      Message 18 of 18 , May 12, 2001
                                        If I grow up I want to be just like Jeff.
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