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Re: [40Whacks] Time and Alibis

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  • WestList@AOL.com
    In a message dated 4/23/01 7:27:42 PM Central Daylight Time, revcoal@connix.com writes:
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 28 7:30 PM
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      In a message dated 4/23/01 7:27:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
      revcoal@... writes:

      << The 2nd version given in one of the newspaper articles has the women
      adjusting the time Morse left to a little after 11, this time after getting
      the supposed phonecall from Dr. Bowen. The problem with this is the same as
      with the above, it gives Dr. Bowen supposedly prescient knowledge of a crime
      that hasn't been reported yet. Both these accounts also are too early for
      Morse's later detailed account of his travels back to the Borden house, and
      leave anywhere from 15 to 30 minutes of his time unaccounted for.
      The last story these women gave was one where Dr. Bowen wasn't involved at
      all, and had Morse leaving their house at any time between 11:20 and 11:30...
      >>

      One thing that's been pointed out to me regarding "times" is that
      in the late 19th century, time-keeping devices and record-keeping
      weren't as precise as what we know today. A discrepancy of
      15 or 20 minutes wouldn't be of much import. Even today, with
      all our sophisticated clocks and watches, we still have a tendency
      to "guesstimate" time. If questioned about something that happened
      at 11:15, we might easily say "Oh, it was about 11 that morning..."

      Just figured I'd throw that in <g>.
    • YnrChyldzWyld
      ... Quite right. It s pointed out in Lizzie Didn t Do It! that the person who made the initial call to the police regarding the Borden murders stated that
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 29 7:36 AM
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        On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 WestList@... wrote:
        >> The last story these women gave was one where Dr. Bowen wasn't
        >>involved at all, and had Morse leaving their house at any time between
        >>11:20 and 11:30...
        >
        >One thing that's been pointed out to me regarding "times" is that
        >in the late 19th century, time-keeping devices and record-keeping
        >weren't as precise as what we know today. A discrepancy of
        >15 or 20 minutes wouldn't be of much import.

        Quite right. It's pointed out in "Lizzie Didn't Do It!" that the person
        who made the initial call to the police regarding the Borden murders
        stated that the time in the store where he was calling from was 5 minutes
        before 11, yet the Fall River police recorded the time it was reported as
        11:10...

        But apparently the police took this into consideration when checking out
        the Morse alibi...remember, he had first gone to the Post Office, and so
        noted the time via the Town Hall clock, which in turn used the rail
        station clock...both clocks were considered 'the' standard by which
        everyone else (including the Fall River PD and the trolley line) set
        their own clocks (remember that Bridget noted the time she was upstairs
        'napping' by the Town Hall clock striking 11)...

        So Morse early in the day synchronized his watch (or claimed to) to the
        'standard' timepiece of Fall River...

        The clock at the niece's house may have been off from this standard time,
        but not Morse's watch. So the first discrepancies arose between the
        times Morse himself gave for being there, and what his niece and the
        other relative stated.

        Now, for someone who memorized the cap number of the conductor on the
        trolley he took back to the Borden's, it's strange that Morse didn't say
        anything to his niece about a vast discrepancy between his watch and her
        clocks, if indeed there was one.

        My guess is that there wasn't...and I believe the Fall River PD checked
        this out, that indeed Morse's watch and the clocks in the niece's
        residence were relatively in synch...in other words, there wasn't a gap
        of 10, 15, 20 minutes between the 2..

        Which means the clocks in the niece's residence were pretty much on
        time...at least, in regards to the Town Hall and RR station clocks...
        which then also means in regards to the time that the Fall River PD noted
        the call was made to the station regarding the murders.

        In which case, the first 2 stories the women gave both police and
        reporters has both Bowen and Morse knowing about the murders BEFORE the
        call was made to the Fall River PD, Bowen either arriving at the niece's
        residence or phoning there at some time before 11:10. The next version
        had Bowen arriving or phoning AFTER 11:15, but would have still meant
        that Morse knew about the murders BEFORE arriving back at the Bordens...
        and his behavior lends credence to this speculation.

        It was only after it was reported that Morse claimed to have known
        nothing before arriving back at the Bordens did the women change the
        story to where Bowen never arrived or phoned their residence, and that
        Morse left sometime between 11:20 to 11:30.

        I find it interesting that no one, not the police nor the reporters,
        followed up on the Dr. Bowen angle...

        Also, that according to the women's initial version, there were 'so many
        people in and out that morning', that they couldn't account for Morse's
        whereabouts with any certainty after he had initially shown up...indeed,
        in their initial version, neither women could swear to the exact time
        he'd arrived...apparently 'someone' told them he'd come, but the first
        one to see him didn't do so until a good 15 or 20 minutes afterwards...

        So where were all those 'so many people' that just happened to be there
        that morning, and why weren't they interviewed? Especially the person
        who told the woman that Morse had arrived?

        It must have been one crowded soiree if neither woman actually saw Morse
        until at least 15 minutes after he was reported to have arrived...


        June
      • Patsy751@aol.com
        Even though Morse had an alibi for the time frame that Andrew was murdered, why did the police not find it suspicious that he sat in the yard eating pears, and
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 30 8:20 AM
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          Even though Morse had an alibi for the time frame that Andrew was murdered,
          why did the police not find it suspicious that he sat in the yard eating
          pears, and not asking anyone what had happened? When he finally did go in
          the house, he was heard to be asking Lizzie, "Lizzie, what happened?" Maybe
          Abby was the only one that was on the hit list, and he was asking why Andrew
          was dead also????

          By the way last night on the Travel channel was a program called "The
          Creepiest
          Destinations in the World". LB's place made nunber one.

          Patsy

          P.S. Personal note to J.T. - THANKS FOR MANNY1
        • PatriciaLu@aol.com
          In a message dated 4/30/01 11:22:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@aol.com writes:
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 30 10:12 AM
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            In a message dated 4/30/01 11:22:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
            Patsy751@... writes:

            << By the way last night on the Travel channel was a program called "The
            Creepiest
            Destinations in the World". LB's place made nunber one. >>

            I am not so much of a fanatic that I wanted to sleep there when I went, but I
            really do wish that they had kept the integrity of the original house more in
            tact. I can't blame the current owners for making it a B&B -- I sort of think
            of that as the price you pay to preserve the house.

            However I remember the tour started in the dining room where they had a
            number of pictures of pears hanging on the walls as a ha-ha joke about Lizzie
            eating the pears.

            The house could have been far creepier than it was in that I *wanted badly*
            to see the house as it was that day.

            Pat
          • Patsy751@aol.com
            In a message dated 04/30/2001 1:14:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, PatriciaLu@aol.com writes:
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 30 10:24 AM
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              In a message dated 04/30/2001 1:14:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              PatriciaLu@... writes:

              << However I remember the tour started in the dining room where they had a
              number of pictures of pears hanging on the walls as a ha-ha joke about
              Lizzie
              eating the pears. >>

              That's the exact reason why the Fall River Historical Society distances
              itself from the B & B. They were so afraid of a "tacky" slant.

              Patsy
            • YnrChyldzWyld
              From: Patsy751@aol.com ... Apparently the Fall River PD were suspicious of Morse, enough so that they put a tail on him to see where he went and with whom he
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 30 11:15 AM
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                >
                >Even though Morse had an alibi for the time frame that Andrew was murdered,
                >why did
                the police not find it suspicious that he sat in the yard eating
                >pears, and not asking anyone what had happened?

                Apparently the Fall River PD were suspicious of Morse, enough so that they put a tail on him to see where he went and with whom he had dealings.  It was due to this 'tail' that Morse was able to be rescued from the mob outside the Borden house who attacked him when Morse went out the evening after the murders to 'mail a letter'.  The general public considered Morse the prime suspect too, which is why he was attacked by the mob...

                But it seems no one ever thought to check on just WHO Morse was so keen to communicate with, and just WHAT it was he communicated.

                But apparently Morse's "airtight" alibi, seeming lack of motive, and Lizzie's strange behavior and contradictory statements removed Morse as a suspect in the eyes of the police...

                 

                June

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              • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                In a message dated 4/30/01 1:32:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@aol.com writes:
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 30 11:55 AM
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                  In a message dated 4/30/01 1:32:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@...
                  writes:

                  << That's the exact reason why the Fall River Historical Society distances
                  itself from the B & B. They were so afraid of a "tacky" slant. >>

                  I wasn't aware of that, but now that I think about it, I sensed it. I only
                  have one day that I was there to judge from --a Saturday in October -- but
                  there were no casual visitors in our little group of seven or so people. I
                  tend to be a purist about these things but the murder aspect of the house
                  wasn't overdone -- just the crappy decor. Maybe if one of us wins Lotto,
                  PowerBall, etc., we could do a better job with historical authenticity than
                  is being done now.

                  Pat
                • Patsy751@aol.com
                  In a message dated 04/30/2001 2:17:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, revcoal@connix.com writes:
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 30 3:54 PM
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                    In a message dated 04/30/2001 2:17:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                    revcoal@... writes:

                    << But it seems no one ever thought to check on just WHO Morse was so keen to
                    communicate with, and just WHAT it was he communicated. >>

                    I just finished reading "Yesterday In Old Fall River" by Paul Hoffman which
                    gives a description of just about everyone involved in the case. I know I
                    read something about who Morse posted the letter to so I will look it up.

                    Patsy
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