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Lizzie Borden

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  • SpkEnglishorDie@aol.com
    Hello, I am a new member to the list. While I am very knowledgable in the case of Jack the Ripper, I have only moderate knowledge in the case of Lizzie,
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 23, 2000
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      Hello,

      I am a new member to the list. While I am very knowledgable in the
      case of Jack the Ripper, I have only moderate knowledge in the case
      of
      Lizzie, although I'm quite familiar with enough of the facts to know
      that I have no clue in hell whether she did it or not. What do you
      folks think?

      Tom Wes
    • Muriel Arnold
      Hi JT: Looking at the case objectively and not be suspicious of Lizzie: Objectivity: I started from scratch. I xeroxed what a dozen newspapers had to say,
      Message 2 of 4 , Jan 26, 2003
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        Hi JT:
        Looking at the case objectively and not be suspicious of Lizzie:
        Objectivity:
        I started from scratch.  I xeroxed what a dozen newspapers had to say, comparing them with each other and to what the Historical Society had on the Hearing (5 books of transcriptions).
         
        Got out notebooks:
        I put down the names of each of the main characters.
        Then I put down what they said to reporters, testified to at the Hearing and  at the tria, in order to see if they'd changed their testimonies.   That gave me the feel of what type of person I was dealing with.
         
        Attempt to buy poison:
        State Inspector McCaffrey, his wife and another woman, were in town checking to see if they could buy poison without a prescription. 
        Eli Bence drug clerk for Smith's drugstore, claimed he knew Lizzie by sight.  He said she came in and spoke in a low tremulous voice.
        Hart/Kilroy were there.  One of them said Lizzie spoke in a normal voice which was not tremulous.  He or the other one said he identified Lizzie as she left the courtroom, after he was asked if she was the one.
        Reporters stated that Lizzie looked like a physical and mental wreck.
        Hilliard told Jennings that Lizzie looked not far from becoming insane.  They checked all the drugstores in Fall River and New Bedford.  Negative.
         
        Now let's take Lizzie's trip to Alice Russell:
        Lizzie, like her parents, got sick Tuesday night.  She spent Wednesday up in her room (Morse Said Mrs. Borden told him she had) and left at 6 p.m. to visit Miss Russell.
        No doubt Alice Russell mentioned that Lizzie did not seem to be herself, so Lizzie started in about her parents saying they thought they had been poisoned, making her believe it could be so.  Alice tried to make it seem Lizzie was mistaken, so Lizzie commenced telling Alice about all the other incidents which had occurred during the past year.  To whit:  The house had been robbed, her twice seeing a man in the back yard, someone stealing pigeons and her father arguing over renting a store.
         
        The reason she said as much as she did was because Alice kept trying to give an explanation for everything Lizzie came up with.
        Ask any woman who visits a close friend whether or not they would have done what Lizzie did; try to convince Alice that she had reason to fear.
         
        Lizzie's whereabouts while her father was being killed:
        Lizzie claimed she went to the barn and told Mrs. Churchill and Dr. Bowen that she was not gone from the house for more than five minutes.  Then the cops and reporters came and she answered question after question.  Lizzie was not deaf and Bridget was one hell of a talker.  Bridget was telling them that she went upstairs at 10:55 and Lizzie called her downstairs at 11:10.
        Lizzie knew she went out after Bridget went upstairs, and hearing Bridget, she knew she now had 15 minutes to account for.  Lizzie, being in a state of shock, tried to account for those 15 minutes.
         
        What do you believe would be your state of mind if you came in five minutes after you left your father laying on the couch and found his face and head covered with blood, and half an hour later, learn your stepmother was dead upstairs?
         
        My father died at home at 89 years of age of natural causes.  Everyone knew he his time was short.  My brother helped him lay down.  My father took two deep breaths and then nothing.  My sister verified he was dead.  My mother went into a state of shock and for some four hours, didn't know what was going on.  By the time she came out of her shock, EMS had already taken my father away, and during all this time, she was not questioned by anyone.
         
        At the inquest, Lizzie said she told Bridget her father was hurt.
        Let's look at Bridget:
        1.  She said Lizzie told her her father had been killed.
        2.  Lizzie told her her father was dead.
        3.  Lizzie did not tell her what was the matter.
        4.  At the trial, Bridget again said killed.  Told she had earlier said dead, Bridget replied that it didn't matter.  He was dead anyway.  (I loved that one.)
        Muriel Arnold
         
        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
        For more information
        muriela@...
      • RevCOAL
        ... Which still leaves unanswered the question WHY Lizzie dragged herself out of her room on a hot Wednesday evening, after feeling ill all day and presumably
        Message 3 of 4 , Jan 26, 2003
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          >

          >Now let's take Lizzie's trip to Alice Russell:

          >Lizzie, like her parents, got sick Tuesday night. 
          She spent Wednesday up in her room
          >(Morse Said Mrs. Borden told
          him she had) and left at 6 p.m. to visit Miss Russell.
          >No doubt
          Alice Russell mentioned that Lizzie did not seem to be herself, so Lizzie started
          >in about her parents saying they thought they had been
          poisoned, making her believe it
          >could be so. 
           
          Which still leaves unanswered the question WHY Lizzie dragged herself out of her room on a hot Wednesday evening, after feeling ill all day and presumably still somewhat 'under the weather' to go visit someone who has been consistently described as being more Emma's friend than Lizzie's...why was it that Lizzie felt it was important to empart certain information to Alice Russell that particular evening?
           
          What is being ignored here is that Lizzie's extraordinary visit to Miss Russell that Wednesday night was a culmination of extraordinary activity on Lizzie's part over the previous couple of days...
           
          First we have Lizzie and Emma departing late the previous week for the annual shore excursion, something BOTH sisters normally went on; yet for some reason Lizzie gave up attending Emma on the vacation, only accompanying her part way (or some accounts have her staying only one night), before returning to Fall River on either Friday or Saturday.  Instead of going home, Lizzie was reported as having stayed at least at TWO boarding houses (if not 3) before returning home on Monday (or perhaps Tuesday).  I find this quite extraordinary, and no one has ever explained WHY Lizzie behaved in such an extraordinary manner, nor if her father and stepmother were aware that she was doing it, or assumed that she was still with Emma at Fairhaven...
           
          My guess is that they did NOT know, but it still does not answer the question of WHY Lizzie did it, was she spying on them, or was she conducting some surreptious business of her own?
           
          So after this strange weekend sojourn, we have Lizzie returning home either late Monday or early Tuesday (perhaps after trying to buy prussic acid); Wednesday not only is the whole household feeling ill, but John Morse suddenly and coincidentally shows up and just happens to get invited to stay the night; Lizzie, after moping about her room all day under the pretense (feigned or otherwise) of feeling ill, suddenly gets the urge to be chatty and goes on a visit to Alice Russell in the evening...
           
          And to even muddle the mess further, Lizzie reported seeing someone lurking in the shadows by the Borden house when she returned home later Wednesday evening; neighbors who lived behind the Borden house also resported hearing someone jump over the fence between their property (the neighbor's and the Borden's) sometime late Wednesday night or the wee hours of Thursday morning...
           
           
          >Ask any woman who visits a close
          friend whether or not they would have done what Lizzie did;
          >try to
          convince Alice that she had reason to fear.
           
          As I mentioned in a previous post, all that Lizzie's conversation with Alice shows is that she had an idea that 'something was afoot', it doesn't prove that Lizzie herself was the soon-to-be instigator.  The question isn't so much WHAT Lizzie said to Alice, but WHY did she suddenly get the urge to go visiting and get a load off of her chest.  Contrary to Jeff's contention that this shows Lizzie's guilt, I think it rather argues the opposite, a murderess who plans on hacking away at her father and stepmother the next day is hardly likely to go running off to chat about it with a friend over a glass of lemonade...
           
           
          June
           
           
           


           

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        • Muriel Arnold
          ... Whar really would have something was if Lizzie had visited with Mrs. Bowen instead of Miss Russell. Knowlton tried several times to imply that there was
          Message 4 of 4 , Jan 26, 2003
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            Hi June:
            >And to muddle the mess further...a man lurking in her back yard...
            Whar really would have something was if Lizzie had visited with Mrs. Bowen instead of Miss Russell.
            Knowlton tried several times to imply that there was something going on between Lizzie and Dr. Bowen.  Now that would have been interesting.
             
            I still say that if Alice had not kept finding excuses for what Lizzie was telling her, Lizzie would have quit trying to convince Alice that she was getting really nervous about what was happening.
             
            It leaves one wondering if Lizzie would have gone to Miss Russell's if Emma had been home.
            Have a great day.
            Muriel Arnold
             
            Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
            For more information
            muriela@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: RevCOAL
            Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 6:26 PM
            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie Borden

            >Now let's take Lizzie's trip to Alice Russell:
            >Lizzie, like her parents, got sick Tuesday night.  She spent Wednesday up in her room
            >(Morse Said Mrs. Borden told him she had) and left at 6 p.m. to visit Miss Russell.
            >No doubt Alice Russell mentioned that Lizzie did not seem to be herself, so Lizzie started
            >in about her parents saying they thought they had been poisoned, making her believe it
            >could be so. 
             
            Which still leaves unanswered the question WHY Lizzie dragged herself out of her room on a hot Wednesday evening, after feeling ill all day and presumably still somewhat 'under the weather' to go visit someone who has been consistently described as being more Emma's friend than Lizzie's...why was it that Lizzie felt it was important to empart certain information to Alice Russell that particular evening?
             
            What is being ignored here is that Lizzie's extraordinary visit to Miss Russell that Wednesday night was a culmination of extraordinary activity on Lizzie's part over the previous couple of days...
             
            First we have Lizzie and Emma departing late the previous week for the annual shore excursion, something BOTH sisters normally went on; yet for some reason Lizzie gave up attending Emma on the vacation, only accompanying her part way (or some accounts have her staying only one night), before returning to Fall River on either Friday or Saturday.  Instead of going home, Lizzie was reported as having stayed at least at TWO boarding houses (if not 3) before returning home on Monday (or perhaps Tuesday).  I find this quite extraordinary, and no one has ever explained WHY Lizzie behaved in such an extraordinary manner, nor if her father and stepmother were aware that she was doing it, or assumed that she was still with Emma at Fairhaven...
             
            My guess is that they did NOT know, but it still does not answer the question of WHY Lizzie did it, was she spying on them, or was she conducting some surreptious business of her own?
             
            So after this strange weekend sojourn, we have Lizzie returning home either late Monday or early Tuesday (perhaps after trying to buy prussic acid); Wednesday not only is the whole household feeling ill, but John Morse suddenly and coincidentally shows up and just happens to get invited to stay the night; Lizzie, after moping about her room all day under the pretense (feigned or otherwise) of feeling ill, suddenly gets the urge to be chatty and goes on a visit to Alice Russell in the evening...
             
            And to even muddle the mess further, Lizzie reported seeing someone lurking in the shadows by the Borden house when she returned home later Wednesday evening; neighbors who lived behind the Borden house also resported hearing someone jump over the fence between their property (the neighbor's and the Borden's) sometime late Wednesday night or the wee hours of Thursday morning...
             
             
            >Ask any woman who visits a close friend whether or not they would have done what Lizzie did;
            >try to convince Alice that she had reason to fear.
             
            As I mentioned in a previous post, all that Lizzie's conversation with Alice shows is that she had an idea that 'something was afoot', it doesn't prove that Lizzie herself was the soon-to-be instigator.  The question isn't so much WHAT Lizzie said to Alice, but WHY did she suddenly get the urge to go visiting and get a load off of her chest.  Contrary to Jeff's contention that this shows Lizzie's guilt, I think it rather argues the opposite, a murderess who plans on hacking away at her father and stepmother the next day is hardly likely to go running off to chat about it with a friend over a glass of lemonade...
             
             
            June
             
             
             


             

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