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Re: Bridget

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  • June
    ... ot really -- don t know where I put it. I still have it, but don t keep it at hand like I do The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook. I ll try to do my best from
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 30, 2005
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      Muriel wrote:

      > Hey June:
      > Got a question for you if you have Victoria Lincoln's book handy.

      ot really -- don't know where I put it. I still have it, but don't
      keep it at hand like I do The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.

      I'll try to do my best from memory.... ;-)


      >Abby sent Bridget out to wash the windows, beginning with the sitting
      >room ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door
      >to the kitchen entry..."
      >
      > Why? You have to go up the front stairs to get to the guest
      >bedroom. Did I miss something here or did Victoria Lincoln goof and
      >forgot you can't get to that room by the back stairs?

      i'm not sure what Lincoln was trying to get at; I'm not sure if
      Lincoln forgot about not being able to get to the guestroom from the
      back stairs, or is just establishing that Bridget was about as far
      away from the only portal of egress at that point in time -- in other
      words, Lincoln establishes an alibi for Bridget while strengthening
      her contention that Lizzie could have been the only one who could have
      killed Abby at 9 am.


      >Also on this page, she had Bridget saying that "Mrs. Borden was a
      >lovely lady to work for."
      >
      >Victoria Lincoln claimed Bridget spoke with sincerity when she said
      >that.
      >
      >Me: I called it a bald-faced lie.

      I don't see how you can. According to all accounts, Lizzie and Emma
      were the only two people who had anything bad to say about Abby --
      everyone else described her as a sweet, wonderful, good woman. There
      is no evidence to show that Bridget would have thought otherwise,
      either -- none of Bridget's contemporaries were ever found that said
      that when she visited them, she did nothing but gripe about how bad
      her mistress was, for instance.

      Bridget DID have it pretty good at the Borden's, considering how light
      her duties were...she would have no reason to kill either Abby or
      Andrew, as the chances of her finding a new employer as lenient as the
      Borden's was not likely.

      BTW, the fact that the Bordens, including Andrew, treated their maid
      so well shows that they weren't as much as the tight, skin-flint,
      Simon Legrees that others have painted them as.


      >Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did
      >only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning. Yep, Lincoln
      >was raised with maids.

      Yes, compared to the usual chores of a maid in a middleclass
      household, Bridget DID have it relatively easy. Maids in upperclass
      households had it relatively easy, too, unless they were the lowest
      echelon, scullery maids. In upperclass households they had a staff of
      maids and butlers and footmen, etc. Any maid above a scullery made
      had specific assigned duties -- the maid that made the beds was not
      the maid who dusted the drawing room who, in turn was not the person
      who polished the silver. Cooking was done by a cook who only cooked,
      and laundry was either done by a laundress or the scullery maid (or
      even sent out to a laundry).

      A middleclass household usually only employed one maid, who was
      expected to cook, clean the whole house, make all the beds, do
      laundry, do the food shopping, do sewing and mending of at least
      napkins and tablecloths, if not the household's clothes, make sure
      that fires were kept going in the fireplaces in the appropriate
      season, and not uncommonly were utilized as nannies, too. Such a maid
      was lucky to get one afternoon a week off.

      In the Borden household Bridget only had to do the laundry, cook, and
      very little household chores. Laundry was a nasty business in those
      days, and one gets the sense that it was for this duty that the
      Borden's primarily employed a maid. I'm also guessing that cooking
      wasn't Abby's forte', so she gladly left that to the maid to do,
      also. But Abby seems to have been into the rest of hausfrau duties,
      preferring to do the majority of dusting, bedmaking, food shopping
      etc., herself...



      >Bridget set the table using the good china.

      Hasn't anyone else found this odd? Why the good china?

      Presumably Bridget was instructed to do so, else one would presume
      either Abby or Andrew would have said something. John Morse hardly
      seems to qualify as someone the Borden's would have thought warranted
      the use of the good china -- he was just family, and it was only
      breakfast.

      So what was going on that Abby and/or Andrew thought that the good
      china was called for? What was so special about that day in
      particular that the good china was used at breakfast, and Abby decided
      that the windows needed washing?


      >First, she said she had breakfast ready at 7:00 (Morse had said the
      >same), then changed it to 7:15.

      Not a major difference...what do YOU think the significance is?


      >She comes back in at 9:00 and Mrs. Borden, STILL DUSTING THE DINING
      >ROOM, tells her to wash the windows, inside and out all around the
      >house.
      >
      >Bridget went around closing the windows, Lizzie nowhere around, she
      >goes out at 9:30 to do so.

      With all the windows closed, and Bridget starting out with the outide
      of the sitting room windows, therefore as far away from the guest
      bedroom as possible (other than going up into the barn), it's almost
      as if Abby wanted to assure some privacy.

      With the windows closed, and Bridget outside either at the back of the
      house (to wash the kitchen windows), at the back fence chatting with
      the nextdoor maid, or washing the sitting room windows on the side of
      the house opposite the guest bedroom, or going back and forth to the
      barn to get fresh water, Bridget was not only outside of the house,
      but away from any commotion up in the guest bedroom.

      She was also away from the front door, if any note was delivered
      there, and/or Abby spoke to someone there.

      Again, Abby's suddenly deciding that the windows needed washing that
      morning comes off as a ploy to get Bridget out of the house for a
      certain length of time.


      >On page 66, Victoria Lincoln had Abby being killed around 9:00 and
      Andrew around 10:45.
      >
      >Did Victoria Lincoln goof again, or was she like Bridget, whenever
      >she needed time, she took it.

      Well as I've mentioned before, she ignores her own argument in her
      book where on one hand she states that Lizzie had no imagination, but
      then later in the book Lincoln goes to great lengths to show how
      imaginative Lizzie was in cooking up an arguable alibi...can't have it
      both ways.

      So Lincoln probably does ignore times that are inconvient for her
      argument -- and considering that she changes her argument from one
      thing to another, then presumably she'd pick certain timeframes to
      suit the argument of the moment.


      June
    • Muriel Arnold
      Hi June: It s taking me a long time to reply, but we opened up a whole can or worms this time. Abby sends Bridget out to wash the windows beginning with the
      Message 2 of 16 , Nov 3, 2005
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        Hi June:
        It's taking me a long time to reply, but we opened up a whole can or worms
        this time.

        Abby sends Bridget out to wash the windows beginning with the sitting room
        ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door to the
        kitchen entry..."

        >You feel Lincoln esablishes an alibi for Bridget while strengthening her
        >contention that Lizzie could have been the only one who could have killed
        >Abby at 9 am.

        You'll have to forgive me but sometimes I'm a slow thinker. What came to
        mind was that perhaps Lincoln had intentions of adding the 14 outside
        witnesses to cement her contention that Lizzie and Lizzie alone could
        possibly have killed Abby at 9 am. Makes sense. The only escape route was
        by the side door, but those 14 witnesses had that escape route secured also.
        The murderer was locked in an unlocked side door.


        >You don't see how I can call Bridget's remark that Abby was a lovely lady
        >to work for, a bald-faced lie. All the evidence showed that none of
        >Bridget's contemporaries were ever found who said Bridget griped about her
        >employers.

        You must have read something I never came across. I'd read where employers
        had said she had been a good and efficient worker. Period. The
        investigators sent to Newport, R.I., had reported that the only thing they
        had come up with beside the above was that she had a very hot temper. From
        what I'd read in the newspapers, hearing and trial, my conclusion was that
        Bridget was a chronic, adroit liar and as far as she was concerned, the
        truth was what she said it was at the time she said it, even if she had to
        change her story a dozen times, like she did about what she did between the
        time she went up to her room at 10:55 and the City Hall clock struck 11:00.

        I agree with you that Bridget's duties were light compared to most other
        maids, as she had not duties on the second floor and no kids she had to
        mind. So, here she was, with a sick headache, it was going to be a scorcher
        that day, was going to have to cook dinner after having had to cook
        breakfast, and Mrs. Borden refused to postpone the window washing. Bridget
        had gotten lazy. Wrong word, but it'll have to do for now. She had gotten
        accustomed to having a lot of time to herself once the breakfast dishes were
        out of the way, but today, of all days, Mrs. Borden was planning on buying
        meat and she was going to have to cook it. Now she would have no time off.
        It meant a whole morning of nothing but work.

        >Hasn't anyone else found this odd? Why the good china?
        To me, Morse was not considered by Abby as being "just family". It implied
        that Morse's visits were not as frequent as most people have been led to
        believe. And, most of those visits were business meetings with Andrew, even
        if he was free to spend the night if he so desired.

        > "... it's almost as if Abby wanted to assure some privacy.", about sending
        > Bridget outside to wash the windows, starting with the sitting room ones.
        > 'Bridget was not only outside the house, but away from any commotion up in
        > the guest bedroom.'"
        Again, we are running into the same brick wall.
        1. It is Bridget who is telling us that that was what happened.
        2. Victoria Lincoln agrees that Abby was killed at 9:00, yet Bridget went
        out to wash the windows at
        9:30. Like Bridget, anytime Lincoln needed time, she either took it or
        ignored it, as if time stood still or
        was at her command.

        On page 76, second paragraph of <<<9>>>, where Lizzie described the morning
        at the inquest, in many versions that not only contradicted each other but
        also contradicted the testimony of Uncle John, Bridget, and all who came in
        directly after the murders....

        Excuse me, but I never read where Victoria Lincoln stated that she had
        copies of everyone's inquest testimonies. Lizzie's testimony actually did
        not contradict Uncle John's, as he left the house BEFORE Lizzie came
        downstairs.
        Morse testified that Bridget was told to wash the windows while they were at
        breakfast and Bridget said she would.
        So why did Lincoln say that Abby (page 77, line 11) "...said something
        about washing the windows. Bridget either only half-registered, or
        pretended not to hear. From Morse's evidence we cannot tell which."
        How's that for Morse not contradicting Bridget?

        As for Bridget's, Lizzie's testimony most definitely did contradict
        Bridget's. Lizzie was telling the truth, as she remembered it. Bridget was
        screwing her all up.

        Victoria Lincoln told her readers how everyone agreed with Bridget's version
        of events. Which ones? All we have is Lizzie's version(s) at the inquest.
        With Bridget, she changed her story to agree with whatever the police
        uncovered. She aimed to please.

        Sorry June, I meant to start criticizing Lincoln from the beginning. I was
        reviewing my notes and making sure I hadn't misquoted or misinterpreted dear
        Victoria Lincoln before I started, but re-reading pages 75-77, I got ticked
        off too much to just keep my mouth shut and wait till the end. I'll try not
        to do it again.
        Have a great day,
        Muriel




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "June" <ynrchyldzwylds_hobby@...>
        To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:33 PM
        Subject: [40Whacks] Re: Bridget


        > Muriel wrote:
        >
        >> Hey June:
        >> Got a question for you if you have Victoria Lincoln's book handy.
        >
        > ot really -- don't know where I put it. I still have it, but don't
        > keep it at hand like I do The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.
        >
        > I'll try to do my best from memory.... ;-)
        >
        >
        >>Abby sent Bridget out to wash the windows, beginning with the sitting
        >>room ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door
        >>to the kitchen entry..."
        >>
        >> Why? You have to go up the front stairs to get to the guest
        >>bedroom. Did I miss something here or did Victoria Lincoln goof and
        >>forgot you can't get to that room by the back stairs?
        >
        > i'm not sure what Lincoln was trying to get at; I'm not sure if
        > Lincoln forgot about not being able to get to the guestroom from the
        > back stairs, or is just establishing that Bridget was about as far
        > away from the only portal of egress at that point in time -- in other
        > words, Lincoln establishes an alibi for Bridget while strengthening
        > her contention that Lizzie could have been the only one who could have
        > killed Abby at 9 am.
        >
        >
        >>Also on this page, she had Bridget saying that "Mrs. Borden was a
        >>lovely lady to work for."
        >>
        >>Victoria Lincoln claimed Bridget spoke with sincerity when she said
        >>that.
        >>
        >>Me: I called it a bald-faced lie.
        >
        > I don't see how you can. According to all accounts, Lizzie and Emma
        > were the only two people who had anything bad to say about Abby --
        > everyone else described her as a sweet, wonderful, good woman. There
        > is no evidence to show that Bridget would have thought otherwise,
        > either -- none of Bridget's contemporaries were ever found that said
        > that when she visited them, she did nothing but gripe about how bad
        > her mistress was, for instance.
        >
        > Bridget DID have it pretty good at the Borden's, considering how light
        > her duties were...she would have no reason to kill either Abby or
        > Andrew, as the chances of her finding a new employer as lenient as the
        > Borden's was not likely.
        >
        > BTW, the fact that the Bordens, including Andrew, treated their maid
        > so well shows that they weren't as much as the tight, skin-flint,
        > Simon Legrees that others have painted them as.
        >
        >
        >>Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did
        >>only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning. Yep, Lincoln
        >>was raised with maids.
        >
        > Yes, compared to the usual chores of a maid in a middleclass
        > household, Bridget DID have it relatively easy. Maids in upperclass
        > households had it relatively easy, too, unless they were the lowest
        > echelon, scullery maids. In upperclass households they had a staff of
        > maids and butlers and footmen, etc. Any maid above a scullery made
        > had specific assigned duties -- the maid that made the beds was not
        > the maid who dusted the drawing room who, in turn was not the person
        > who polished the silver. Cooking was done by a cook who only cooked,
        > and laundry was either done by a laundress or the scullery maid (or
        > even sent out to a laundry).
        >
        > A middleclass household usually only employed one maid, who was
        > expected to cook, clean the whole house, make all the beds, do
        > laundry, do the food shopping, do sewing and mending of at least
        > napkins and tablecloths, if not the household's clothes, make sure
        > that fires were kept going in the fireplaces in the appropriate
        > season, and not uncommonly were utilized as nannies, too. Such a maid
        > was lucky to get one afternoon a week off.
        >
        > In the Borden household Bridget only had to do the laundry, cook, and
        > very little household chores. Laundry was a nasty business in those
        > days, and one gets the sense that it was for this duty that the
        > Borden's primarily employed a maid. I'm also guessing that cooking
        > wasn't Abby's forte', so she gladly left that to the maid to do,
        > also. But Abby seems to have been into the rest of hausfrau duties,
        > preferring to do the majority of dusting, bedmaking, food shopping
        > etc., herself...
        >
        >
        >
        >>Bridget set the table using the good china.
        >
        > Hasn't anyone else found this odd? Why the good china?
        >
        > Presumably Bridget was instructed to do so, else one would presume
        > either Abby or Andrew would have said something. John Morse hardly
        > seems to qualify as someone the Borden's would have thought warranted
        > the use of the good china -- he was just family, and it was only
        > breakfast.
        >
        > So what was going on that Abby and/or Andrew thought that the good
        > china was called for? What was so special about that day in
        > particular that the good china was used at breakfast, and Abby decided
        > that the windows needed washing?
        >
        >
        >>First, she said she had breakfast ready at 7:00 (Morse had said the
        >>same), then changed it to 7:15.
        >
        > Not a major difference...what do YOU think the significance is?
        >
        >
        >>She comes back in at 9:00 and Mrs. Borden, STILL DUSTING THE DINING
        >>ROOM, tells her to wash the windows, inside and out all around the
        >>house.
        >>
        >>Bridget went around closing the windows, Lizzie nowhere around, she
        >>goes out at 9:30 to do so.
        >
        > With all the windows closed, and Bridget starting out with the outide
        > of the sitting room windows, therefore as far away from the guest
        > bedroom as possible (other than going up into the barn), it's almost
        > as if Abby wanted to assure some privacy.
        >
        > With the windows closed, and Bridget outside either at the back of the
        > house (to wash the kitchen windows), at the back fence chatting with
        > the nextdoor maid, or washing the sitting room windows on the side of
        > the house opposite the guest bedroom, or going back and forth to the
        > barn to get fresh water, Bridget was not only outside of the house,
        > but away from any commotion up in the guest bedroom.
        >
        > She was also away from the front door, if any note was delivered
        > there, and/or Abby spoke to someone there.
        >
        > Again, Abby's suddenly deciding that the windows needed washing that
        > morning comes off as a ploy to get Bridget out of the house for a
        > certain length of time.
        >
        >
        >>On page 66, Victoria Lincoln had Abby being killed around 9:00 and
        > Andrew around 10:45.
        >>
        >>Did Victoria Lincoln goof again, or was she like Bridget, whenever
        >>she needed time, she took it.
        >
        > Well as I've mentioned before, she ignores her own argument in her
        > book where on one hand she states that Lizzie had no imagination, but
        > then later in the book Lincoln goes to great lengths to show how
        > imaginative Lizzie was in cooking up an arguable alibi...can't have it
        > both ways.
        >
        > So Lincoln probably does ignore times that are inconvient for her
        > argument -- and considering that she changes her argument from one
        > thing to another, then presumably she'd pick certain timeframes to
        > suit the argument of the moment.
        >
        >
        > June
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---WHODUNIT???---
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • June
        ... No, the point is that I have NEVER read anything on this matter. One would think that if Bridget was so PO d with her employers that she d end up cracking
        Message 3 of 16 , Nov 5, 2005
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          Muriel wrote:

          >You don't see how I can call Bridget's remark
          >that Abby was a lovely lady to work for, a
          >bald-faced lie. All the evidence showed that
          >none of Bridget's contemporaries were ever
          >found who said Bridget griped about her employers.
          >
          >You must have read something I never came across.

          No, the point is that I have NEVER read anything on this matter.

          One would think that if Bridget was so PO'd with her employers that
          she'd end up cracking their skulls with an ax, that she would have
          voiced her unhappiness with her work to her friends. Since no one
          ever came forward to be quoted in the papers that they had heard
          Bridget on at least one occasion berate her employers, one has to
          assume that no one ever did because Bridget never did.

          Ergo, Bridget must have been reasonably content with her job and with
          her employers, including Abby. Ergo, there is no basis on which to
          claim that her saying that Abby was a lovely lady to work for was a
          lie.



          >I'd read where employers had said she had been
          >a good and efficient worker. Period.

          Watch out, Muriel -- you're reasonably close to hoisting yourself on
          your own petard! ;-)

          Bridget was a "good and efficient worker"; hardly souds like someone
          with a drinking problem, does it? ;-)


          The investigators sent to Newport, R.I., had
          >reported that the only thing they had come up
          >with beside the above was that she had a very
          >hot temper.

          So she got her Irish up on occasion....

          I still don't see how you can conclude from that that she was not only
          an adroit liar, and a chronic one at that...there is absolutely
          nothing in those reports to lead to that conclusion, unless one is
          already predisposed to think of Bridget as the killer, and then any
          reports showing her in a good character would have to be construed as
          being due to Bridget being a liar....

          But again, there are no FACTS to support such an allegation; all her
          ex-employers had good things to say about her as an employee. And
          since she had been at the Bordens for a couple of years, it would seem
          that they also were at least satisfied, if not pleased, with her work
          performance. And considering that the Borden's were fanatical
          teetotalers, it is hard to believe that they would keep a tippling,
          tipsy maid in their employ for long.


          >She had gotten accustomed to having a lot of
          >time to herself once the breakfast dishes were
          >out of the way, but today, of all days, Mrs.
          >Borden was planning on buying meat and she was
          >going to have to cook it.

          It seems to me that after 5 days of the same old mutton, Bridget would
          have been kissing Abby's feet over the prospect of having something
          new and fresh to eat...

          I find it hard to believe that that was the only day in all of
          Bridget's employ that Abby had bought meat in the morning for Bridget
          to cook for the midday meal. Even if it WAS hot, you mean to say that
          there had never been any other hot summer day in all of Bridget's
          employ that Abby had gone out in the morning to buy meat for Bridget
          to cook for the midday meal?

          After all, one of the things pointed out to dispute Lincoln's claim
          that Abby was lazy was the fact that Abby often went out a couple of
          times a week to shop for groceries and meat. No one ever claimed that
          Abby slacked off on this chore just because the day was hot (and one
          would think that perhaps she'd be even MORE inclined to do so in hot
          weather, both to get out of a hot house for some relatively fresh air,
          and because in hot weather food spoiled more quickly...if it had been
          Febuary instead of August, they probably would have had Sunday's
          mutton last throughout the week, not just 4.5 days!<LOL>)


          >Now she would have no time off.

          Unless Abby was going to buy a huge roast and ask Bridget to
          rotisserie it, whatever else she bought would take minimal time, in
          perspective. Again, this wasn't anything new, Abby -- and Bridget --
          did this all the time.


          >It meant a whole morning of nothing but work.

          It still would have been a much easier day than the day that Bridget
          did laundry -- PLUS still had to cook and clean the kitchen and do
          whatever chores the other family members didn't do.



          >Excuse me, but I never read where Victoria Lincoln
          >stated that she had copies of everyone's inquest
          >testimonies.

          Neither have I. Presumably she had access to the official transcript,
          just like everyone else.



          June ;)
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