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Re: [40Whacks] Re: Bridget

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  • PatriciaLu@aol.com
    In a message dated 10/12/2005 7:24:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, ynrchyldzwylds_hobby@msn.com writes: Okay...so are you saying that Montana did NOT allow women
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 12, 2005
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      In a message dated 10/12/2005 7:24:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, ynrchyldzwylds_hobby@... writes:
      Okay...so are you saying that Montana did NOT allow women to vote in 1893, or are you saying that it just wasn't the only state?
      No, Montana did not allow women to vote. I knew Wyoming (well actually Wyoming as a territory) was the first, but I did not know where Montana was in the lineup, but here it is:
       
      Colorado is the first state to adopt an amendment granting women the right to vote. Utah and Idaho follow suit in 1896, Washington State in 1910, California in 1911, Oregon, Kansas, and Arizona in 1912, Alaska and Illinois in 1913, Montana and Nevada in 1914, New York in 1917; Michigan, South Dakota, and Oklahoma in 1918.
       
      Pat
    • Muriel Arnold
      Hey June: Got a question for you if you have Victoria Lincoln s book handy. On page 75: Abby sent Bridget out to wash the windows, beginning with the sitting
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 30, 2005
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        Hey June:
        Got a question for you if you have Victoria Lincoln's book handy.
        On page 75:
        Abby sent Bridget out to wash the windows, beginning with the sitting room ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door to the kitchen entry..."
         
        Why?  You have to go up the front stairs to get to the guest bedroom.  Did I miss something here or did Victoria Lincoln goof and forgot you can't get to that room by the back stairs?
         
        Also on this page, she had Bridget saying that "Mrs. Borden was a lovely lady to work for."
        Victoria Lincoln claimed Bridget spoke with sincerity when she said that.
        Me:   I called it a bald-faced lie.  Bridget may have been speaking the truth if it was Lizzie she was talking about.
         
        What about para. 4:  Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning.  Yep, Lincoln was raised with maids.  Take Thursday morning:
         
        1.  Bridget woke up with a sick headache.
        2.  Went to the cellar at 6:15 for coal.
        3.  Started the fire.
        4.  Mrs. Borden came down at 6:30, and told her what to fix for breakfast.
        5.  Bridget set the table using the good china.
        6.  She re-heated the mutton and made pancakes from scratch.
        7.  She folded clothes and watched what Mr. Borden did in the back yard.
        8.  First, she said she had breakfast ready at 7:00 (Morse had said the same), then changed it to 7:15.
        9.  Around 8:50, she goes out and throws up for some ten to fifteen minutes.
        10.  She comes back in at 9:00 and Mrs. Borden, STILL DUSTING THE DINING ROOM, tells her to wash the
               windows, inside and out all around the house.
        11.  Bridget went around closing the windows, Lizzie nowhere around, she goes out at 9:30 to do so.
         
        12.  On page 66, Victoria Lincoln had Abby being killed around 9:00 and Andrew around 10:45.
         
            Did Victoria Lincoln goof again, or was she like Bridget, whenever she needed time, she took it.
        Muriel
         
      • June
        ... ot really -- don t know where I put it. I still have it, but don t keep it at hand like I do The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook. I ll try to do my best from
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 30, 2005
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          Muriel wrote:

          > Hey June:
          > Got a question for you if you have Victoria Lincoln's book handy.

          ot really -- don't know where I put it. I still have it, but don't
          keep it at hand like I do The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.

          I'll try to do my best from memory.... ;-)


          >Abby sent Bridget out to wash the windows, beginning with the sitting
          >room ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door
          >to the kitchen entry..."
          >
          > Why? You have to go up the front stairs to get to the guest
          >bedroom. Did I miss something here or did Victoria Lincoln goof and
          >forgot you can't get to that room by the back stairs?

          i'm not sure what Lincoln was trying to get at; I'm not sure if
          Lincoln forgot about not being able to get to the guestroom from the
          back stairs, or is just establishing that Bridget was about as far
          away from the only portal of egress at that point in time -- in other
          words, Lincoln establishes an alibi for Bridget while strengthening
          her contention that Lizzie could have been the only one who could have
          killed Abby at 9 am.


          >Also on this page, she had Bridget saying that "Mrs. Borden was a
          >lovely lady to work for."
          >
          >Victoria Lincoln claimed Bridget spoke with sincerity when she said
          >that.
          >
          >Me: I called it a bald-faced lie.

          I don't see how you can. According to all accounts, Lizzie and Emma
          were the only two people who had anything bad to say about Abby --
          everyone else described her as a sweet, wonderful, good woman. There
          is no evidence to show that Bridget would have thought otherwise,
          either -- none of Bridget's contemporaries were ever found that said
          that when she visited them, she did nothing but gripe about how bad
          her mistress was, for instance.

          Bridget DID have it pretty good at the Borden's, considering how light
          her duties were...she would have no reason to kill either Abby or
          Andrew, as the chances of her finding a new employer as lenient as the
          Borden's was not likely.

          BTW, the fact that the Bordens, including Andrew, treated their maid
          so well shows that they weren't as much as the tight, skin-flint,
          Simon Legrees that others have painted them as.


          >Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did
          >only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning. Yep, Lincoln
          >was raised with maids.

          Yes, compared to the usual chores of a maid in a middleclass
          household, Bridget DID have it relatively easy. Maids in upperclass
          households had it relatively easy, too, unless they were the lowest
          echelon, scullery maids. In upperclass households they had a staff of
          maids and butlers and footmen, etc. Any maid above a scullery made
          had specific assigned duties -- the maid that made the beds was not
          the maid who dusted the drawing room who, in turn was not the person
          who polished the silver. Cooking was done by a cook who only cooked,
          and laundry was either done by a laundress or the scullery maid (or
          even sent out to a laundry).

          A middleclass household usually only employed one maid, who was
          expected to cook, clean the whole house, make all the beds, do
          laundry, do the food shopping, do sewing and mending of at least
          napkins and tablecloths, if not the household's clothes, make sure
          that fires were kept going in the fireplaces in the appropriate
          season, and not uncommonly were utilized as nannies, too. Such a maid
          was lucky to get one afternoon a week off.

          In the Borden household Bridget only had to do the laundry, cook, and
          very little household chores. Laundry was a nasty business in those
          days, and one gets the sense that it was for this duty that the
          Borden's primarily employed a maid. I'm also guessing that cooking
          wasn't Abby's forte', so she gladly left that to the maid to do,
          also. But Abby seems to have been into the rest of hausfrau duties,
          preferring to do the majority of dusting, bedmaking, food shopping
          etc., herself...



          >Bridget set the table using the good china.

          Hasn't anyone else found this odd? Why the good china?

          Presumably Bridget was instructed to do so, else one would presume
          either Abby or Andrew would have said something. John Morse hardly
          seems to qualify as someone the Borden's would have thought warranted
          the use of the good china -- he was just family, and it was only
          breakfast.

          So what was going on that Abby and/or Andrew thought that the good
          china was called for? What was so special about that day in
          particular that the good china was used at breakfast, and Abby decided
          that the windows needed washing?


          >First, she said she had breakfast ready at 7:00 (Morse had said the
          >same), then changed it to 7:15.

          Not a major difference...what do YOU think the significance is?


          >She comes back in at 9:00 and Mrs. Borden, STILL DUSTING THE DINING
          >ROOM, tells her to wash the windows, inside and out all around the
          >house.
          >
          >Bridget went around closing the windows, Lizzie nowhere around, she
          >goes out at 9:30 to do so.

          With all the windows closed, and Bridget starting out with the outide
          of the sitting room windows, therefore as far away from the guest
          bedroom as possible (other than going up into the barn), it's almost
          as if Abby wanted to assure some privacy.

          With the windows closed, and Bridget outside either at the back of the
          house (to wash the kitchen windows), at the back fence chatting with
          the nextdoor maid, or washing the sitting room windows on the side of
          the house opposite the guest bedroom, or going back and forth to the
          barn to get fresh water, Bridget was not only outside of the house,
          but away from any commotion up in the guest bedroom.

          She was also away from the front door, if any note was delivered
          there, and/or Abby spoke to someone there.

          Again, Abby's suddenly deciding that the windows needed washing that
          morning comes off as a ploy to get Bridget out of the house for a
          certain length of time.


          >On page 66, Victoria Lincoln had Abby being killed around 9:00 and
          Andrew around 10:45.
          >
          >Did Victoria Lincoln goof again, or was she like Bridget, whenever
          >she needed time, she took it.

          Well as I've mentioned before, she ignores her own argument in her
          book where on one hand she states that Lizzie had no imagination, but
          then later in the book Lincoln goes to great lengths to show how
          imaginative Lizzie was in cooking up an arguable alibi...can't have it
          both ways.

          So Lincoln probably does ignore times that are inconvient for her
          argument -- and considering that she changes her argument from one
          thing to another, then presumably she'd pick certain timeframes to
          suit the argument of the moment.


          June
        • Muriel Arnold
          Hi June: It s taking me a long time to reply, but we opened up a whole can or worms this time. Abby sends Bridget out to wash the windows beginning with the
          Message 4 of 16 , Nov 3, 2005
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            Hi June:
            It's taking me a long time to reply, but we opened up a whole can or worms
            this time.

            Abby sends Bridget out to wash the windows beginning with the sitting room
            ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door to the
            kitchen entry..."

            >You feel Lincoln esablishes an alibi for Bridget while strengthening her
            >contention that Lizzie could have been the only one who could have killed
            >Abby at 9 am.

            You'll have to forgive me but sometimes I'm a slow thinker. What came to
            mind was that perhaps Lincoln had intentions of adding the 14 outside
            witnesses to cement her contention that Lizzie and Lizzie alone could
            possibly have killed Abby at 9 am. Makes sense. The only escape route was
            by the side door, but those 14 witnesses had that escape route secured also.
            The murderer was locked in an unlocked side door.


            >You don't see how I can call Bridget's remark that Abby was a lovely lady
            >to work for, a bald-faced lie. All the evidence showed that none of
            >Bridget's contemporaries were ever found who said Bridget griped about her
            >employers.

            You must have read something I never came across. I'd read where employers
            had said she had been a good and efficient worker. Period. The
            investigators sent to Newport, R.I., had reported that the only thing they
            had come up with beside the above was that she had a very hot temper. From
            what I'd read in the newspapers, hearing and trial, my conclusion was that
            Bridget was a chronic, adroit liar and as far as she was concerned, the
            truth was what she said it was at the time she said it, even if she had to
            change her story a dozen times, like she did about what she did between the
            time she went up to her room at 10:55 and the City Hall clock struck 11:00.

            I agree with you that Bridget's duties were light compared to most other
            maids, as she had not duties on the second floor and no kids she had to
            mind. So, here she was, with a sick headache, it was going to be a scorcher
            that day, was going to have to cook dinner after having had to cook
            breakfast, and Mrs. Borden refused to postpone the window washing. Bridget
            had gotten lazy. Wrong word, but it'll have to do for now. She had gotten
            accustomed to having a lot of time to herself once the breakfast dishes were
            out of the way, but today, of all days, Mrs. Borden was planning on buying
            meat and she was going to have to cook it. Now she would have no time off.
            It meant a whole morning of nothing but work.

            >Hasn't anyone else found this odd? Why the good china?
            To me, Morse was not considered by Abby as being "just family". It implied
            that Morse's visits were not as frequent as most people have been led to
            believe. And, most of those visits were business meetings with Andrew, even
            if he was free to spend the night if he so desired.

            > "... it's almost as if Abby wanted to assure some privacy.", about sending
            > Bridget outside to wash the windows, starting with the sitting room ones.
            > 'Bridget was not only outside the house, but away from any commotion up in
            > the guest bedroom.'"
            Again, we are running into the same brick wall.
            1. It is Bridget who is telling us that that was what happened.
            2. Victoria Lincoln agrees that Abby was killed at 9:00, yet Bridget went
            out to wash the windows at
            9:30. Like Bridget, anytime Lincoln needed time, she either took it or
            ignored it, as if time stood still or
            was at her command.

            On page 76, second paragraph of <<<9>>>, where Lizzie described the morning
            at the inquest, in many versions that not only contradicted each other but
            also contradicted the testimony of Uncle John, Bridget, and all who came in
            directly after the murders....

            Excuse me, but I never read where Victoria Lincoln stated that she had
            copies of everyone's inquest testimonies. Lizzie's testimony actually did
            not contradict Uncle John's, as he left the house BEFORE Lizzie came
            downstairs.
            Morse testified that Bridget was told to wash the windows while they were at
            breakfast and Bridget said she would.
            So why did Lincoln say that Abby (page 77, line 11) "...said something
            about washing the windows. Bridget either only half-registered, or
            pretended not to hear. From Morse's evidence we cannot tell which."
            How's that for Morse not contradicting Bridget?

            As for Bridget's, Lizzie's testimony most definitely did contradict
            Bridget's. Lizzie was telling the truth, as she remembered it. Bridget was
            screwing her all up.

            Victoria Lincoln told her readers how everyone agreed with Bridget's version
            of events. Which ones? All we have is Lizzie's version(s) at the inquest.
            With Bridget, she changed her story to agree with whatever the police
            uncovered. She aimed to please.

            Sorry June, I meant to start criticizing Lincoln from the beginning. I was
            reviewing my notes and making sure I hadn't misquoted or misinterpreted dear
            Victoria Lincoln before I started, but re-reading pages 75-77, I got ticked
            off too much to just keep my mouth shut and wait till the end. I'll try not
            to do it again.
            Have a great day,
            Muriel




            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "June" <ynrchyldzwylds_hobby@...>
            To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 3:33 PM
            Subject: [40Whacks] Re: Bridget


            > Muriel wrote:
            >
            >> Hey June:
            >> Got a question for you if you have Victoria Lincoln's book handy.
            >
            > ot really -- don't know where I put it. I still have it, but don't
            > keep it at hand like I do The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.
            >
            > I'll try to do my best from memory.... ;-)
            >
            >
            >>Abby sent Bridget out to wash the windows, beginning with the sitting
            >>room ones, placing "her at the furthest possible remove from the door
            >>to the kitchen entry..."
            >>
            >> Why? You have to go up the front stairs to get to the guest
            >>bedroom. Did I miss something here or did Victoria Lincoln goof and
            >>forgot you can't get to that room by the back stairs?
            >
            > i'm not sure what Lincoln was trying to get at; I'm not sure if
            > Lincoln forgot about not being able to get to the guestroom from the
            > back stairs, or is just establishing that Bridget was about as far
            > away from the only portal of egress at that point in time -- in other
            > words, Lincoln establishes an alibi for Bridget while strengthening
            > her contention that Lizzie could have been the only one who could have
            > killed Abby at 9 am.
            >
            >
            >>Also on this page, she had Bridget saying that "Mrs. Borden was a
            >>lovely lady to work for."
            >>
            >>Victoria Lincoln claimed Bridget spoke with sincerity when she said
            >>that.
            >>
            >>Me: I called it a bald-faced lie.
            >
            > I don't see how you can. According to all accounts, Lizzie and Emma
            > were the only two people who had anything bad to say about Abby --
            > everyone else described her as a sweet, wonderful, good woman. There
            > is no evidence to show that Bridget would have thought otherwise,
            > either -- none of Bridget's contemporaries were ever found that said
            > that when she visited them, she did nothing but gripe about how bad
            > her mistress was, for instance.
            >
            > Bridget DID have it pretty good at the Borden's, considering how light
            > her duties were...she would have no reason to kill either Abby or
            > Andrew, as the chances of her finding a new employer as lenient as the
            > Borden's was not likely.
            >
            > BTW, the fact that the Bordens, including Andrew, treated their maid
            > so well shows that they weren't as much as the tight, skin-flint,
            > Simon Legrees that others have painted them as.
            >
            >
            >>Her household chores were also light; besides the cooking she did
            >>only the wash and occasionally a little heavy cleaning. Yep, Lincoln
            >>was raised with maids.
            >
            > Yes, compared to the usual chores of a maid in a middleclass
            > household, Bridget DID have it relatively easy. Maids in upperclass
            > households had it relatively easy, too, unless they were the lowest
            > echelon, scullery maids. In upperclass households they had a staff of
            > maids and butlers and footmen, etc. Any maid above a scullery made
            > had specific assigned duties -- the maid that made the beds was not
            > the maid who dusted the drawing room who, in turn was not the person
            > who polished the silver. Cooking was done by a cook who only cooked,
            > and laundry was either done by a laundress or the scullery maid (or
            > even sent out to a laundry).
            >
            > A middleclass household usually only employed one maid, who was
            > expected to cook, clean the whole house, make all the beds, do
            > laundry, do the food shopping, do sewing and mending of at least
            > napkins and tablecloths, if not the household's clothes, make sure
            > that fires were kept going in the fireplaces in the appropriate
            > season, and not uncommonly were utilized as nannies, too. Such a maid
            > was lucky to get one afternoon a week off.
            >
            > In the Borden household Bridget only had to do the laundry, cook, and
            > very little household chores. Laundry was a nasty business in those
            > days, and one gets the sense that it was for this duty that the
            > Borden's primarily employed a maid. I'm also guessing that cooking
            > wasn't Abby's forte', so she gladly left that to the maid to do,
            > also. But Abby seems to have been into the rest of hausfrau duties,
            > preferring to do the majority of dusting, bedmaking, food shopping
            > etc., herself...
            >
            >
            >
            >>Bridget set the table using the good china.
            >
            > Hasn't anyone else found this odd? Why the good china?
            >
            > Presumably Bridget was instructed to do so, else one would presume
            > either Abby or Andrew would have said something. John Morse hardly
            > seems to qualify as someone the Borden's would have thought warranted
            > the use of the good china -- he was just family, and it was only
            > breakfast.
            >
            > So what was going on that Abby and/or Andrew thought that the good
            > china was called for? What was so special about that day in
            > particular that the good china was used at breakfast, and Abby decided
            > that the windows needed washing?
            >
            >
            >>First, she said she had breakfast ready at 7:00 (Morse had said the
            >>same), then changed it to 7:15.
            >
            > Not a major difference...what do YOU think the significance is?
            >
            >
            >>She comes back in at 9:00 and Mrs. Borden, STILL DUSTING THE DINING
            >>ROOM, tells her to wash the windows, inside and out all around the
            >>house.
            >>
            >>Bridget went around closing the windows, Lizzie nowhere around, she
            >>goes out at 9:30 to do so.
            >
            > With all the windows closed, and Bridget starting out with the outide
            > of the sitting room windows, therefore as far away from the guest
            > bedroom as possible (other than going up into the barn), it's almost
            > as if Abby wanted to assure some privacy.
            >
            > With the windows closed, and Bridget outside either at the back of the
            > house (to wash the kitchen windows), at the back fence chatting with
            > the nextdoor maid, or washing the sitting room windows on the side of
            > the house opposite the guest bedroom, or going back and forth to the
            > barn to get fresh water, Bridget was not only outside of the house,
            > but away from any commotion up in the guest bedroom.
            >
            > She was also away from the front door, if any note was delivered
            > there, and/or Abby spoke to someone there.
            >
            > Again, Abby's suddenly deciding that the windows needed washing that
            > morning comes off as a ploy to get Bridget out of the house for a
            > certain length of time.
            >
            >
            >>On page 66, Victoria Lincoln had Abby being killed around 9:00 and
            > Andrew around 10:45.
            >>
            >>Did Victoria Lincoln goof again, or was she like Bridget, whenever
            >>she needed time, she took it.
            >
            > Well as I've mentioned before, she ignores her own argument in her
            > book where on one hand she states that Lizzie had no imagination, but
            > then later in the book Lincoln goes to great lengths to show how
            > imaginative Lizzie was in cooking up an arguable alibi...can't have it
            > both ways.
            >
            > So Lincoln probably does ignore times that are inconvient for her
            > argument -- and considering that she changes her argument from one
            > thing to another, then presumably she'd pick certain timeframes to
            > suit the argument of the moment.
            >
            >
            > June
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---WHODUNIT???---
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • June
            ... No, the point is that I have NEVER read anything on this matter. One would think that if Bridget was so PO d with her employers that she d end up cracking
            Message 5 of 16 , Nov 5, 2005
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              Muriel wrote:

              >You don't see how I can call Bridget's remark
              >that Abby was a lovely lady to work for, a
              >bald-faced lie. All the evidence showed that
              >none of Bridget's contemporaries were ever
              >found who said Bridget griped about her employers.
              >
              >You must have read something I never came across.

              No, the point is that I have NEVER read anything on this matter.

              One would think that if Bridget was so PO'd with her employers that
              she'd end up cracking their skulls with an ax, that she would have
              voiced her unhappiness with her work to her friends. Since no one
              ever came forward to be quoted in the papers that they had heard
              Bridget on at least one occasion berate her employers, one has to
              assume that no one ever did because Bridget never did.

              Ergo, Bridget must have been reasonably content with her job and with
              her employers, including Abby. Ergo, there is no basis on which to
              claim that her saying that Abby was a lovely lady to work for was a
              lie.



              >I'd read where employers had said she had been
              >a good and efficient worker. Period.

              Watch out, Muriel -- you're reasonably close to hoisting yourself on
              your own petard! ;-)

              Bridget was a "good and efficient worker"; hardly souds like someone
              with a drinking problem, does it? ;-)


              The investigators sent to Newport, R.I., had
              >reported that the only thing they had come up
              >with beside the above was that she had a very
              >hot temper.

              So she got her Irish up on occasion....

              I still don't see how you can conclude from that that she was not only
              an adroit liar, and a chronic one at that...there is absolutely
              nothing in those reports to lead to that conclusion, unless one is
              already predisposed to think of Bridget as the killer, and then any
              reports showing her in a good character would have to be construed as
              being due to Bridget being a liar....

              But again, there are no FACTS to support such an allegation; all her
              ex-employers had good things to say about her as an employee. And
              since she had been at the Bordens for a couple of years, it would seem
              that they also were at least satisfied, if not pleased, with her work
              performance. And considering that the Borden's were fanatical
              teetotalers, it is hard to believe that they would keep a tippling,
              tipsy maid in their employ for long.


              >She had gotten accustomed to having a lot of
              >time to herself once the breakfast dishes were
              >out of the way, but today, of all days, Mrs.
              >Borden was planning on buying meat and she was
              >going to have to cook it.

              It seems to me that after 5 days of the same old mutton, Bridget would
              have been kissing Abby's feet over the prospect of having something
              new and fresh to eat...

              I find it hard to believe that that was the only day in all of
              Bridget's employ that Abby had bought meat in the morning for Bridget
              to cook for the midday meal. Even if it WAS hot, you mean to say that
              there had never been any other hot summer day in all of Bridget's
              employ that Abby had gone out in the morning to buy meat for Bridget
              to cook for the midday meal?

              After all, one of the things pointed out to dispute Lincoln's claim
              that Abby was lazy was the fact that Abby often went out a couple of
              times a week to shop for groceries and meat. No one ever claimed that
              Abby slacked off on this chore just because the day was hot (and one
              would think that perhaps she'd be even MORE inclined to do so in hot
              weather, both to get out of a hot house for some relatively fresh air,
              and because in hot weather food spoiled more quickly...if it had been
              Febuary instead of August, they probably would have had Sunday's
              mutton last throughout the week, not just 4.5 days!<LOL>)


              >Now she would have no time off.

              Unless Abby was going to buy a huge roast and ask Bridget to
              rotisserie it, whatever else she bought would take minimal time, in
              perspective. Again, this wasn't anything new, Abby -- and Bridget --
              did this all the time.


              >It meant a whole morning of nothing but work.

              It still would have been a much easier day than the day that Bridget
              did laundry -- PLUS still had to cook and clean the kitchen and do
              whatever chores the other family members didn't do.



              >Excuse me, but I never read where Victoria Lincoln
              >stated that she had copies of everyone's inquest
              >testimonies.

              Neither have I. Presumably she had access to the official transcript,
              just like everyone else.



              June ;)
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