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Ladies of 40 Whacks

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  • Jeffrey Tesch
    Sorry for the tardy reply - I m recovering from recently being hoist on my own petard. Pat: Wicked post on the personal devices - considering that you re not
    Message 1 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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      Sorry for the tardy reply – I’m recovering from recently being hoist on my own petard…

       

      Pat:  Wicked post on the personal devices – considering that you’re “not really an expert”.  The part about Victorian doctors not recognizing an orgasm in their wives was insightful.  Next time I see that History Channel series I’ll check it out.  And yes, the “implements” pictured in the Sears Roebuck catalogs were laughably cumbersome.

       

                  Supposition:  What if Lizzie said something incriminating to Doctor Bowen during the throes of a “house call”?

       

      Muriel:  OK, I’ll play along - Bridget killed the Borden’s.  Lizzie would have to suspect her, and her lawyer’s should have pounced on the Irish maid at trial.  Was this why you think Lizzie was so poorly defended?  (For my money, getting the inquest testimony and Eli Bence eliminated was well worth Robinson’s fee)

       

                  Supposition:   Was Lizzie protecting Bridget because the outcome was so favorable to her and Emma?

       

      Laura:   You really must post more often!  The incest/menstrual/rhythm connection is fascinating.  The secret to this crime is locked somewhere in that equation.  I bought the Bravo murder book you cited at Half Price books – I hope to get into it this weekend.  And I loved the Pearson quote!

       

                  Supposition:   Was the locked door syndrome at 2nd Street a reverse harbinger of incest at Ferry Street?

       

      The Group:  Ran across some interesting research regarding our gal Lizzie.  Seems a former schoolmate of hers, Miss Blanche Courant of Hartford Ct, mysteriously passed away at age 16 while Lizzie was visiting her in 1876.  Her family contacted Fall River police after Lizzie was arrested for murder in 1892.  Inquest notes on Blanche’s death from a Doctor Dibble were pulled and reviewed.  Anyone want to know more?

       

      JT 

       

       

    • Laura4991@prodigy.net
      JT: You really must take up writing for publication! RE: victorian medical practices: I saw a very funny movie a few years ago, The Road to Wellville, starring
      Message 2 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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        JT:
        You really must take up writing for publication!
        RE: victorian medical practices: I saw a very funny movie a few years ago, The Road to Wellville, starring Bridget Fonda as the patient and Anthony Hopkins as the doctor who "manipulates" her. Meg Ryan in her famous deli screaming scene has nothing on Bridget in this film. I'll never forget the indescribable look on her face as she's leaving the doctor's office!
        Very, very interesting, this Blanche Courant information. I've never heard that anywhere. Do write more after a sufficiently suspenseful interlude.
        Laura James
      • Patricia Stephenson
        J.T. You are a shameful tease. Patsy Jeffrey Tesch wrote: st1 :*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } Sorry for the tardy reply – I’m
        Message 3 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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          J.T.
          You are a shameful tease.
           
          Patsy

          Jeffrey Tesch <jtesch@...> wrote:

          Sorry for the tardy reply � I�m recovering from recently being hoist on my own petard�

           

          Pat:  Wicked post on the personal devices � considering that you�re �not really an expert�.  The part about Victorian doctors not recognizing an orgasm in their wives was insightful.  Next time I see that History Channel series I�ll check it out.  And yes, the �implements� pictured in the Sears Roebuck catalogs were laughably cumbersome.

           

                      Supposition:  What if Lizzie said something incriminating to Doctor Bowen during the throes of a �house call�?

           

          Muriel:  OK, I�ll play along - Bridget killed the Borden�s.  Lizzie would have to suspect her, and her lawyer�s should have pounced on the Irish maid at trial.  Was this why you think Lizzie was so poorly defended?  (For my money, getting the inquest testimony and Eli Bence eliminated was well worth Robinson�s fee)

           

                      Supposition:   Was Lizzie protecting Bridget because the outcome was so favorable to her and Emma?

           

          Laura:   You really must post more often!  The incest/menstrual/rhythm connection is fascinating.  The secret to this crime is locked somewhere in that equation.  I bought the Bravo murder book you cited at Half Price books � I hope to get into it this weekend.  And I loved the Pearson quote!

           

                      Supposition:   Was the locked door syndrome at 2nd Street a reverse harbinger of incest at Ferry Street?

           

          The Group:  Ran across some interesting research regarding our gal Lizzie.  Seems a former schoolmate of hers, Miss Blanche Courant of Hartford Ct, mysteriously passed away at age 16 while Lizzie was visiting her in 1876.  Her family contacted Fall River police after Lizzie was arrested for murder in 1892.  Inquest notes on Blanche�s death from a Doctor Dibble were pulled and reviewed.  Anyone want to know more?

           

          JT 

           

           



          ---WHODUNIT???---



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        • Muriel Arnold
          Hi Jeff: I had started answering you but somehow hit a wrong key and God knows where what I had written disappeared to. The reason I claim Lizzie had been
          Message 4 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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            Hi Jeff:
            I had started answering you but somehow hit a wrong key and God knows where what I had written disappeared to.  The reason I claim Lizzie had been poorly defended is that, had they paid any attention to the reporters, and pursued their findings, they would have uncovered the dozen witnesses I found who would have proven Bridget had to have been the guilty party.   And I mean Bridget and Bridget alone.
             
            LIZZIE DID NOT PROTECT BRIDGET BECAUSE THE OUTCOME WAS SO FAVORABLE TO HER AND EMMA.
            I honestly believe Lizzie thought evil of no one.  As far as Lizzie was concerned, Bridget was upstairs in her bedroom and thus could not have killed her father, and outside washing windows when someone killed her mother.  Had Lizzie been guilty, she sure as hell would have tried to implicate Bridget.  All Lizzie had done was what she was noted for doing;  telling the truth.
             
            Jeff, the Borden case was as simple a case as the Manchester murder.  Knowlton had kept out of that one and the Fall River police had it solved in a week.  Those responsible in making the Borden murders the Crime of the Century were:  Knowlton, Bridget, McHenry, Bence, Harrington and Fleet.  Oops, can't forget Medley.
             
            Knowlton:  Mr. Know-it-all.  He used this case  for political reasons.  He wanted to be the next Attorney General.
            Bridget:     You never noticed that whatever Lizzie said happened, Bridget agreed, only she put a different
                             ending to it?
            McHenry:   He was responsible for all those outrageous stories.  I'm not sure if he wrote the Blanche story.
             
            Bence:       His testimony would have looked bad for Lizzie.  Maybe, just maybe, Lizzie's lawyers knew about
                             John(?) Gray, the one who had told reporters that Bence had told him not long after his telling the
                             cops it was Lizzie who tried to buy poison, that he could not swear that it was her.
             
            Harrington:  The only thing which might have been detrimental to Lizzie was his testifying that he saw Dr. Bowen
                             tear up a note and throw the pieces into the stove.  He saw the word Emma writen in lead pencil
                             on the upper left hand corner.  This would have implied that Lizzie had not written a letter to Emma.
                             (Said letter was returned to the Borden house on Monday.)
             
            Fleet:         Within the hour, he had already made up his mind the Lizzie was guilty.  Medley and Harrington
                             had both reported to him that they did not like Lizzie's answers.
             
            Medley:      He never changed his story of having checked out the barn and that he saw only his prints on that
                             dust covered floor of the loft.
             
            Jeff, this Blanche Courant episode, I'd read about it in some newspaper and had put it down as another McHenry wild stories.  If I'm not mistaken, Lizzie had come down for breakfast and the family had asked  why Blanch had not come down with her and Lizzie had replied that Blanche had died during the night, had written a will and had willed a petticoat or something along that line to her.  If you do have something extra to add, I'm sure the rest of us would love to hear about it.
             
            Muriel 
             
            -- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 7:18 AM
            Subject: [40Whacks] Ladies of 40 Whacks

            Sorry for the tardy reply – I’m recovering from recently being hoist on my own petard…

             

            Pat:  Wicked post on the personal devices – considering that you’re “not really an expert”.  The part about Victorian doctors not recognizing an orgasm in their wives was insightful.  Next time I see that History Channel series I’ll check it out.  And yes, the “implements” pictured in the Sears Roebuck catalogs were laughably cumbersome.

             

                        Supposition:  What if Lizzie said something incriminating to Doctor Bowen during the throes of a “house call”?

             

            Muriel:  OK, I’ll play along - Bridget killed the Borden’s.  Lizzie would have to suspect her, and her lawyer’s should have pounced on the Irish maid at trial.  Was this why you think Lizzie was so poorly defended?  (For my money, getting the inquest testimony and Eli Bence eliminated was well worth Robinson’s fee)

             

                        Supposition:   Was Lizzie protecting Bridget because the outcome was so favorable to her and Emma?

             

            Laura:   You really must post more often!  The incest/menstrual/rhythm connection is fascinating.  The secret to this crime is locked somewhere in that equation.  I bought the Bravo murder book you cited at Half Price books – I hope to get into it this weekend.  And I loved the Pearson quote!

             

                        Supposition:   Was the locked door syndrome at 2nd Street a reverse harbinger of incest at Ferry Street?

             

            The Group:  Ran across some interesting research regarding our gal Lizzie.  Seems a former schoolmate of hers, Miss Blanche Courant of Hartford Ct, mysteriously passed away at age 16 while Lizzie was visiting her in 1876.  Her family contacted Fall River police after Lizzie was arrested for murder in 1892.  Inquest notes on Blanche’s death from a Doctor Dibble were pulled and reviewed.  Anyone want to know more?

             

            JT 

             

             



            ---WHODUNIT???---


          • PatriciaLu@aol.com
            In a message dated 2/19/2005 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jtesch@cinci.rr.com writes: Inquest notes on Blanche’s death from a Doctor Dibble were pulled
            Message 5 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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              In a message dated 2/19/2005 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jtesch@... writes:
              Inquest notes on Blanche’s death from a Doctor Dibble were pulled and reviewed.  Anyone want to know more?
              You can't be suggesting that Lizzie's life of crime started early, can you?
               
              Pat in NYC
            • PatriciaLu@aol.com
              In a message dated 2/19/2005 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jtesch@cinci.rr.com writes: Miss Blanche Courant of Hartford Ct Is this a coincidence that the
              Message 6 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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                In a message dated 2/19/2005 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jtesch@... writes:
                Miss Blanche Courant of Hartford Ct
                Is this a coincidence that the Hartford newspaper is the Hartford Courant? Or is it Blanche's family?
                 
                Pat in NYC
              • Muriel Arnold
                Hi Pat: You caught me in one of my moods. In 1876, Lizzie would have been 16. This raises a question. Don t serial killers have the tendency of commiting
                Message 7 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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                  Hi Pat:
                  You caught me in one of my moods.  In 1876, Lizzie would have been 16.  This raises a question.
                  Don't serial killers have the tendency of commiting murder early in life?  Seems to me that 16 would be just about the right age.  But once they start, they are unable to stop until they get caught and I don't think Lizzie had the qualifications to be a serial killer.
                   
                  I know I would be interested in learning more about Blanche and the so-called inquest notes about Blanche's death from a Doctor Dibble.  I never came across his name in the dozen newspapers that I read.
                  Muriel
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:22 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Ladies of 40 Whacks

                  In a message dated 2/19/2005 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jtesch@... writes:
                  Inquest notes on Blanche’s death from a Doctor Dibble were pulled and reviewed.  Anyone want to know more?
                  You can't be suggesting that Lizzie's life of crime started early, can you?
                   
                  Pat in NYC


                  ---WHODUNIT???---


                • Muriel Arnold
                  Hi Pat, again: My cousin from Hartford, Conn. had gone to the library and xeroxed all the articles which had appeared in the Hartford Courant covering the
                  Message 8 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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                    Hi Pat, again:
                    My cousin from Hartford, Conn. had gone to the library and xeroxed all the articles which had appeared in the "Hartford Courant" covering the Borden case and in none of those articles did I come across anything about anyone wanting Blanche's death looked into again.
                     
                    I no longer have all those articles so I can't re-read them to see if that story actually appeared in the "Hartford Courant", or any other newspaper, as all that material I sent to New Hampshire a few years ago.
                    Muriel
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2005 2:28 PM
                    Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Ladies of 40 Whacks

                    In a message dated 2/19/2005 8:19:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jtesch@... writes:
                    Miss Blanche Courant of Hartford Ct
                    Is this a coincidence that the Hartford newspaper is the Hartford Courant? Or is it Blanche's family?
                     
                    Pat in NYC


                    ---WHODUNIT???---


                  • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                    In a message dated 2/19/2005 11:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, muriella@comcast.net writes: Don t serial killers have the tendency of commiting murder early
                    Message 9 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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                      In a message dated 2/19/2005 11:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time, muriella@... writes:
                      Don't serial killers have the tendency of commiting murder early in life? 
                      I don't know, but I have a friend who is a nurse at the student health center at an Ivy League school, and she has told me that for kids who have mental illlness, their first psychotic break comes when they are freshman and away from home for the first time.
                       
                      I've been thinking about this -- I had not heard of Blanche Courant or Dr. Dibble, but I remember reading this book about the two identical twin gynecologists in NYC who were found dead -- this sounds like a joke, but it's a true story -- and this was a "true crime" book about it and the author wrote in the forward about how when something like this occurs, you can't believe that two upstanding wealthy doctors, for example, could have gotten themselves into this situation, but when you start digging you see their lives were slowly coming apart long before this. Maybe it's the same with Lizzie... it was certainly true of other killers.
                       
                      I'd like JT to tell us what it was about Lizzie and Blanche's death that motivated the parents to contact the police. How did Blanche die?
                       
                      Pat in NYC
                    • Donna J Logan
                      The Blanche Courant story is on a par with the apocryphal Lizzie offered to knock down an old out building with an ax saw... IOW, an urban legend. Never
                      Message 10 of 10 , Feb 19, 2005
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                        The Blanche Courant story is on a par with the apocryphal "Lizzie offered to knock down an old out building with an ax" saw...

                        IOW, an urban legend. Never happened.


                        June

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: PatriciaLu@...
                        Sent: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 21:39:37 -0800


                        In a message dated 2/19/2005 11:10:37 PM Eastern Standard Time,
                        muriella@... writes:
                        Don't serial killers have the tendency of commiting murder early in life?
                        I don't know, but I have a friend who is a nurse at the student health center
                        at an Ivy League school, and she has told me that for kids who have mental
                        illlness, their first psychotic break comes when they are freshman and away from
                        home for the first time.

                        I've been thinking about this -- I had not heard of Blanche Courant or Dr
                        Dibble, but I remember reading this book about the two identical twin
                        gynecologists in NYC who were found dead -- this sounds like a joke, but it's a true
                        story -- and this was a "true crime" book about it and the author wrote in the
                        forward about how when something like this occurs, you can't believe that two
                        upstanding wealthy doctors, for example, could have gotten themselves into this
                        situation, but when you start digging you see their lives were slowly coming
                        apart long before this. Maybe it's the same with Lizzie... it was certainly
                        true of other killers.

                        I'd like JT to tell us what it was about Lizzie and Blanche's death that
                        motivated the parents to contact the police. How did Blanche die?

                        Pat in NYC
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