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Re: [40Whacks] Things That Make You Say "Hmmm..." (1)

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  • revcoal@mindspring.com
    ... From The Fall River Herald: MORSE S NIECE Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 2, 2004
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      Muriel wrote:

      >Now I got it sraight.  It was Annie Morse and her sixteen year old
      >brother Morse had gone to see the morning of the murders on
      >Weybosset Street.  What threw me off was Patsy saying Morse was
      >at his niece's house that morning.  Annie and her brother were visiting
      >there from New Hampshire.  Was it his sister's house he went to?
      >
      >I'm afraid you got your information wrong about Morse first hearing
      >of the murders from Dr. Bowen when he first went to their house. 
      >From 11:10 to 11:20, Dr. Bowen was at the Borden house.  He left there
      >just as Officer Allen arrived.  Dr. Bowen never went to the Weybosset
      >Street house the day of the murders.

       
      From The Fall River Herald:
       
      "MORSE'S NIECE
       
      "Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely
      "to Officer Medley, who interviewed her Thursday night.  She said in
      "reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that
      "one of them was John Morse.
       
      " 'Was Morse the name we heard?' asked the officer of a companion.
       
      " 'Yes,' retorted Mrs. Emery quickly, 'Morse was the man.  He left here at
      "11:30 o'clock this morning.'
       
      " 'Then you noticed the time?' observed the officer.
       
      " 'Oh, yes,' was the reply, 'I noticed the time.'
       
      " 'How did you fix it?' was the next question.
       
      "After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was
      "sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician.  'Dr. Bowen came in just
      "as Mr. Morse left'.
       
      " 'Did they meet?' queried the officers.
       
      " 'No, they did not,' said Mrs. Emery.
       
      "At his point the niece in question entered the room and corroborated
      "Mrs. Emery's statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20
      "as the exact time of Mr. Morse's departure.
       
      "Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do,
      "at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come
      "east to spend his money.  She was not positive on this point, however. 
      "Morse's niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and
      "replied that she had.  She had met him when she was five years old,
      "and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the
      "Borden farm, Swansey..."
       
        -- The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 9, col. 2
       
      As you see, it was his NIECE that Morse went to visit; also, both the
      niece and Mrs. Emery told the police that Dr. Bowen arrived at their
      house just after Morse left, and that Morse left their house between
      11:20 and 11:30.
       
      Now, there is various testimony (not just Bridget's) as to when Dr.
      Bowen arrived home and came over to the Borden house, and all of
      them have Bowen arriving sometime between shortly after 11 and
      11:20.  So someone was obviously lying about that -- giving rise to
      2 questions:  WHY would either side lie, and just which version was
      the truth?
       
      Without more to go on, I'd tend to accept the above version as being
      closer to the truth; first off, this interview occured the evening of the
      murders, before Mrs. Emery and the niece had time to "compare notes"
      as it were with anyone else; secondly, this was an official interview
      conducted by the police (the Fall River reporter taking advantage of it
      for his own purposes)...in other words, if this was something being said
      just to the reporter with no one else around, then it would be more
      likely that the 2 women might embellish the truth -- if not outright lie --
      for whatever purpose was suiting them.
       
      But they were being interviewed by the police, so one has to believe
      that whatever they said, they believed to be the truth as they
      understood it...
       
      Of course, this version actually caused more problems, as it raised the
      question as to whether Morse and Bowen met as Morse was leaving,
      but it also contradicts the testimony of Bowen, Bridget, Lizzie, Mrs.
      Churchill, et al, as to when Dr. Bowen got home and when he came
      over to the Borden house.
       
       
      From the New York Herald, Aug. 7, 1892:
       
      "WHAT MR. MORSE SAYS
       
      "...Mr. Borden left me at the door, asking me to come home to dinner.
      "I went to the Post Office and several other places about town and
      "finally to Daniel Emery's at No. 4 Weybosset street.  I stayed there
      "until between quarter after and half-past eleven, when I started for
      "home by street car.  It was twenty minutes to twelve when I got
      "home and heard of the murders..."
       
        --  The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 31, col. 2
       
       
      From The New York Times, Aug. 26, 1893:
      (reporting on the 2nd day of the Borden trial)
       
      "John V. Morse was the next witness...
       
      "The witness went down to the Post Office and wrote a postal card,
      "after which he took a car to Weybosset Street to visit Daniel
      "Emery, where he had a nephew and niece...
       
        --  The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 155, col. 2
       
       
      Interesting that Uncle John made sure to provide minute details
      regarding the streetcar that he took FROM the Emery's, but this
      is the only time he mentions the streetcar he supposedly took TO
      the Emery's...one would think that it would have been AS important,
      if not more so, to prove he'd been on a particular streetcar at a
      particular time when he was going to the Emery's, as that is the
      time frame of the murders.
       
      Remember, the Borden house lay between downtown Fall River and
      the Post Office, and the Emery house; in other words, Morse had
      to backtrack to get to the Emery's, bringing him back into the
      proximity of the Borden house just about the time Abby could have
      been being killed (according to a couple of the medical examiners,
      they placed Abby's time of death 'about an hour before' Andrew's,
      meaning she was killed closer to 10 a.m. than the 9-9:30 time some
      others give...
       
      If Abby WAS killed closer to 10 a.m., that means Morse was in the
      generaly proximity of the Borden house at the time, as he travelled
      from downtown Fall River to the Emery house.  One would think he
      would have been as conscientous to note the conductor's cap number
      on THAT trip as he was to make note of it on his later trip home...
       
      Presuming of course that he actually DID take a streetcar to the
      Emery's....
       
      More on Mrs. Emery's and Morse's niece's stories to follow...
       
       
      June  ;-)
       
       
    • Patricia Stephenson
      June, Thank you for your well thought out and fascinating response. I really enjoyed your post, and of course gives rise to more questions if that is
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 2, 2004
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        June,
        Thank you for your well thought out and fascinating response.  I really enjoyed your post, and of course gives rise to more questions if that is possible.
        Patsy

        revcoal@... wrote:
        Muriel wrote:

        >Now I got it sraight.  It was Annie Morse and her sixteen year old
        >brother Morse had gone to see the morning of the murders on
        >Weybosset Street.  What threw me off was Patsy saying Morse was
        >at his niece's house that morning.  Annie and her brother were visiting
        >there from New Hampshire.  Was it his sister's house he went to?
        >
        >I'm afraid you got your information wrong about Morse first hearing
        >of the murders from Dr. Bowen when he first went to their house. 
        >From 11:10 to 11:20, Dr. Bowen was at the Borden house.  He left there
        >just as Officer Allen arrived.  Dr. Bowen never went to the Weybosset
        >Street house the day of the murders.

         
        From The Fall River Herald:
         
        "MORSE'S NIECE
         
        "Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely
        "to Officer Medley, who interviewed her Thursday night.  She said in
        "reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that
        "one of them was John Morse.
         
        " 'Was Morse the name we heard?' asked the officer of a companion.
         
        " 'Yes,' retorted Mrs. Emery quickly, 'Morse was the man.  He left here at
        "11:30 o'clock this morning.'
         
        " 'Then you noticed the time?' observed the officer.
         
        " 'Oh, yes,' was the reply, 'I noticed the time.'
         
        " 'How did you fix it?' was the next question.
         
        "After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was
        "sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician.  'Dr. Bowen came in just
        "as Mr. Morse left'.
         
        " 'Did they meet?' queried the officers.
         
        " 'No, they did not,' said Mrs. Emery.
         
        "At his point the niece in question entered the room and corroborated
        "Mrs. Emery's statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20
        "as the exact time of Mr. Morse's departure.
         
        "Mrs. Emery volunteered information that Mr. Morse was well-to-do,
        "at least she supposed he was comfortably off and that he had come
        "east to spend his money.  She was not positive on this point, however. 
        "Morse's niece was asked if she had ever seen her uncle before, and
        "replied that she had.  She had met him when she was five years old,
        "and three weeks ago he had taken her from the cars at Warren to the
        "Borden farm, Swansey..."
         
          -- The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 9, col. 2
         
        As you see, it was his NIECE that Morse went to visit; also, both the
        niece and Mrs. Emery told the police that Dr. Bowen arrived at their
        house just after Morse left, and that Morse left their house between
        11:20 and 11:30.
         
        Now, there is various testimony (not just Bridget's) as to when Dr.
        Bowen arrived home and came over to the Borden house, and all of
        them have Bowen arriving sometime between shortly after 11 and
        11:20.  So someone was obviously lying about that -- giving rise to
        2 questions:  WHY would either side lie, and just which version was
        the truth?
         
        Without more to go on, I'd tend to accept the above version as being
        closer to the truth; first off, this interview occured the evening of the
        murders, before Mrs. Emery and the niece had time to "compare notes"
        as it were with anyone else; secondly, this was an official interview
        conducted by the police (the Fall River reporter taking advantage of it
        for his own purposes)...in other words, if this was something being said
        just to the reporter with no one else around, then it would be more
        likely that the 2 women might embellish the truth -- if not outright lie --
        for whatever purpose was suiting them.
         
        But they were being interviewed by the police, so one has to believe
        that whatever they said, they believed to be the truth as they
        understood it...
         
        Of course, this version actually caused more problems, as it raised the
        question as to whether Morse and Bowen met as Morse was leaving,
        but it also contradicts the testimony of Bowen, Bridget, Lizzie, Mrs.
        Churchill, et al, as to when Dr. Bowen got home and when he came
        over to the Borden house.
         
         
        From the New York Herald, Aug. 7, 1892:
         
        "WHAT MR. MORSE SAYS
         
        "...Mr. Borden left me at the door, asking me to come home to dinner.
        "I went to the Post Office and several other places about town and
        "finally to Daniel Emery's at No. 4 Weybosset street.  I stayed there
        "until between quarter after and half-past eleven, when I started for
        "home by street car.  It was twenty minutes to twelve when I got
        "home and heard of the murders..."
         
          --  The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 31, col. 2
         
         
        From The New York Times, Aug. 26, 1893:
        (reporting on the 2nd day of the Borden trial)
         
        "John V. Morse was the next witness...
         
        "The witness went down to the Post Office and wrote a postal card,
        "after which he took a car to Weybosset Street to visit Daniel
        "Emery, where he had a nephew and niece...
         
          --  The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook, p. 155, col. 2
         
         
        Interesting that Uncle John made sure to provide minute details
        regarding the streetcar that he took FROM the Emery's, but this
        is the only time he mentions the streetcar he supposedly took TO
        the Emery's...one would think that it would have been AS important,
        if not more so, to prove he'd been on a particular streetcar at a
        particular time when he was going to the Emery's, as that is the
        time frame of the murders.
         
        Remember, the Borden house lay between downtown Fall River and
        the Post Office, and the Emery house; in other words, Morse had
        to backtrack to get to the Emery's, bringing him back into the
        proximity of the Borden house just about the time Abby could have
        been being killed (according to a couple of the medical examiners,
        they placed Abby's time of death 'about an hour before' Andrew's,
        meaning she was killed closer to 10 a.m. than the 9-9:30 time some
        others give...
         
        If Abby WAS killed closer to 10 a.m., that means Morse was in the
        generaly proximity of the Borden house at the time, as he travelled
        from downtown Fall River to the Emery house.  One would think he
        would have been as conscientous to note the conductor's cap number
        on THAT trip as he was to make note of it on his later trip home...
         
        Presuming of course that he actually DID take a streetcar to the
        Emery's....
         
        More on Mrs. Emery's and Morse's niece's stories to follow...
         
         
        June  ;-)
         


        ---WHODUNIT???---



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