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Jay

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  • Jeffrey Tesch
    JAY! Where you been? Were you re-evaluating your priorities – or just experiencing amnesia and déjà vu at the same time? Well chew on this, my vagabond
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 7, 2004

      JAY!

       

      Where you been?  Were you re-evaluating your priorities – or just experiencing amnesia and déjà vu at the same time?

       

      Well chew on this, my vagabond friend!

       

      While meandering through my vast library of Borden source material, I stumbled across an article by a psychiatrist called “

      What Made Lizzie Borden Kill?”  With her guilt a given, this author probes the family dysfunction that drove Lizzie to commit double parricide.

       

      And yes, Incest is Relative (pun intended).

       

      Check out this passage:

       

                  ***”No single disorder is enough to make a case for a Borden family at war with itself.  But viewed as a pattern – the long-time absence of a wife-mother, the ages of the daughters at the time of their mother’s illness and death, the autocratic father, the isolation of the family, the failure of the family to bond as a unit when the new Mrs. Borden moved in, the timing of the move to the new house, the structure of the house, the special relationship between Lizzie and her father, the tensions between both daughters and the stepmother – all these together suggest long standing structural flaws that could have led to incest, family violence and to the murders.”***

       

      This author/psychiatrist also finds it bizarre that both Emma and Lizzie stayed in the house on the night of the murders.

       

                  ***”What about Emma?  She must have known Lizzie committed the murders and why.  Otherwise her eerie calm in the face of violent death is almost inexplicable…Is it possible that either woman would have stayed if she thought some unknown killer had entered the house and committed the crimes?”

       

      It is unthinkable to me that anyone would want to stay (or be permitted to stay) in a house where two of their family members had been violently slain that day – and where their bodies still resided that night!

       

      Imagine what went through Emma’s mind when she read the telegram in Fairhaven.  I submit that she knew instantly who had done it and why.  And she took her own sweet time returning home that day.

       

      Lizzie certainly was a greedy, socially ambitious young woman.  But the undercurrent ran way deeper than that – remember what Knowlten said in his closing argument:  “the hand that held the murder weapon was not the hand of masculine strength.  It was the hand of a person strong only in hate and the desire to kill.”

       

       

      HOW ABOUT SOME COMMENTS ON THIS POST!                The group is on life support…

       

       

      POSTSCRIPT:  Ted Bundy and Ann Marie Burr

       

      I sold an article on the Bundy/Burr thing to a regional crime magazine.  Remember the premise:  8 year old girl disappears in Tacoma in 1961 and the paperboy was 14 year old Ted Bundy.

       

      I enjoyed writing this piece (gothic cold case with a wicked twist), and really appreciated the group feedback at the time.  After it’s published I could post for the group if anyone’s interested  (possible incest in this one too).

       

      JT

       

       

       

       

       

    • PatriciaLu@aol.com
      Hi JT and all: I think the passage about the incest possibility is fascinating -- with one exception -- I would argue that the family was isolated -- I think
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 7, 2004
        Hi JT and all:
         
        I think the passage about the incest possibility is fascinating -- with one exception -- I would argue that the family was "isolated" -- I think that's more of a factor when the family lives out in the country or on a farm with no other people around.
         
        One might also argue that the peculiar lay out of the house would work *against* the possibility of incest because of the close quarters. If Lizze was being incested, how would it happen without the other household members knowing? Or, of course, maybe they did know.
         
        I have considered the notion of those bodies being in the house overnight, and my reaction might be a late 20th century/early 21st century reaction to death than was prevalent in the 19th century when the body was prepared/cleaned up/laid out in a home setting.
         
        Having said that, I do agree with how odd it is that the sisters stayed in the house overnight on the day of the murder.
         
        Pat
      • Muriel Arnold
        Hi Pat: To me, incest is out. Mr. Borden had no reason whatsoever to go up those front stairs. Besides, the door leading from his bedroom into Lizzie s was
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 7, 2004
          Hi Pat:
          To me, incest is out.  Mr. Borden had no reason whatsoever to go up those front stairs.  Besides, the door leading from his bedroom into Lizzie's was locked on both sides.
           
          Add to this the fact that the girls were born close to five years apart, and this in the age when women were bearing kids year after year.  Andrew was not interested in sex for sex.  He used sex for precreation only.  He was more interested in money than sex.
           
          As for Lizzie and Emma spending the night with the bodies in the house would not have been unusual back then.  After all, the bodies were in the dining room, the doors leading out of it into the kitchen and sitting rooms were closed, so they did not have to go through it in order to retire to their rooms.  Even Miss Russell spent the night there.
          Muriel
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 7:09 PM
          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Jay

          Hi JT and all:
           
          I think the passage about the incest possibility is fascinating -- with one exception -- I would argue that the family was "isolated" -- I think that's more of a factor when the family lives out in the country or on a farm with no other people around.
           
          One might also argue that the peculiar lay out of the house would work *against* the possibility of incest because of the close quarters. If Lizze was being incested, how would it happen without the other household members knowing? Or, of course, maybe they did know.
           
          I have considered the notion of those bodies being in the house overnight, and my reaction might be a late 20th century/early 21st century reaction to death than was prevalent in the 19th century when the body was prepared/cleaned up/laid out in a home setting.
           
          Having said that, I do agree with how odd it is that the sisters stayed in the house overnight on the day of the murder.
           
          Pat


          ---WHODUNIT???---


        • Muriel Arnold
          Hi JT: I m not trying to make you mad but I sure wish people would quit looking at Knowlton as an upright, righteous, just doing his duty type of guy. If he
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 8, 2004
            Hi JT:
            I'm not trying to make you mad but I sure wish people would quit looking at Knowlton as an upright, righteous, just doing his duty type of guy.  If he had stayed home in New Bedford, the Borden case never would have become the crime of the century.
            His telling the jurors that the murders were done by a person strong only in hate and the desire to kill:  Let's not forget that Knowlton was desperate and doing his best to convince the jurors to ignore the evidence and convict Lizzie on his words alone.  Unfortunately, Lizzie died without ever finding out the debt she owed Judge Dewey.
             
            Knowlton went to trial knowing he had no case.  You may feel Lizzie was ambitious, but I disagree, as her life style never changed, other than moving to Maplecroft.  Knowton was the one who was ambitious.  He desperately wanted to be the next Attorney General of Mass.
            Muriel
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2004 6:49 PM
            Subject: [40Whacks] Jay

            JAY!

             

            Where you been?  Were you re-evaluating your priorities – or just experiencing amnesia and déjà vu at the same time?

             

            Well chew on this, my vagabond friend!

             

            While meandering through my vast library of Borden source material, I stumbled across an article by a psychiatrist called “

            What Made Lizzie Borden Kill?”  With her guilt a given, this author probes the family dysfunction that drove Lizzie to commit double parricide.

             

            And yes, Incest is Relative (pun intended).

             

            Check out this passage:

             

                        ***”No single disorder is enough to make a case for a Borden family at war with itself.  But viewed as a pattern – the long-time absence of a wife-mother, the ages of the daughters at the time of their mother’s illness and death, the autocratic father, the isolation of the family, the failure of the family to bond as a unit when the new Mrs. Borden moved in, the timing of the move to the new house, the structure of the house, the special relationship between Lizzie and her father, the tensions between both daughters and the stepmother – all these together suggest long standing structural flaws that could have led to incest, family violence and to the murders.”***

             

            This author/psychiatrist also finds it bizarre that both Emma and Lizzie stayed in the house on the night of the murders.

             

                        ***”What about Emma?  She must have known Lizzie committed the murders and why.  Otherwise her eerie calm in the face of violent death is almost inexplicable…Is it possible that either woman would have stayed if she thought some unknown killer had entered the house and committed the crimes?”

             

            It is unthinkable to me that anyone would want to stay (or be permitted to stay) in a house where two of their family members had been violently slain that day – and where their bodies still resided that night!

             

            Imagine what went through Emma’s mind when she read the telegram in Fairhaven.  I submit that she knew instantly who had done it and why.  And she took her own sweet time returning home that day.

             

            Lizzie certainly was a greedy, socially ambitious young woman.  But the undercurrent ran way deeper than that – remember what Knowlten said in his closing argument:  “the hand that held the murder weapon was not the hand of masculine strength.  It was the hand of a person strong only in hate and the desire to kill.”

             

             

            HOW ABOUT SOME COMMENTS ON THIS POST!                The group is on life support…

             

             

            POSTSCRIPT:  Ted Bundy and Ann Marie Burr

             

            I sold an article on the Bundy/Burr thing to a regional crime magazine.  Remember the premise:  8 year old girl disappears in Tacoma in 1961 and the paperboy was 14 year old Ted Bundy.

             

            I enjoyed writing this piece (gothic cold case with a wicked twist), and really appreciated the group feedback at the time.  After it’s published I could post for the group if anyone’s interested  (possible incest in this one too).

             

            JT

             

             

             

             

             



            ---WHODUNIT???---

          • Muriel Arnold
            Hi JT: You got me on that one, about her life style after moving into Maplecroft. Guess I used the wrong word there. To me, her personality is what didn t
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 8, 2004
              Hi JT:
              You got me on that one, about her life style after moving into Maplecroft.  Guess I used the wrong word there.
              To me, her personality is what didn't change.  The difference being is that now she didn't have to worry a lick about money.  She did what she wanted, if she wanted, and when she wanted.  Lizzie cared for the animals and people around her. 
              As for her buying the vacant lots next to Maplecroft:  Looks like there's a lot of Lizzie in me.  Visited my son after he bought his house in Maryland.  I told him he should buy the lot next to him to keep someone from building a house on it.  He replied:  "Mama, that's two lots and they sell for $60,000 apiece."  "YIKES!"
               
              <***I think it was Knowlton who killed the Borens - with McHenry as his accomplice. >
              I like that one.
              Muriel
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:14 PM
              Subject: FW: [40Whacks] Jay

               

               

               

              Muriel wrote:

               

              You may feel Lizzie was ambitious, but I disagree, as her life style never changed, other than moving to Maplecroft.

               

              ***This statement is LUDICROUS!  Moving to Maplecroft changed everything!

               

              The shopping trips to Boston and Newport…the gallery jaunts to New York and Washington…the summer hotel parties in Tynsboro and Cape Cod…attending out of town performances and entertaining theatre people at Maplecroft…the ostentatious carriage and automobile…the cadre of well paid servants…the view of the bay from her front yard…having a bathroom in both her winter and summer bedroom…building a garage that cost more than most homes…the buying of all available lots on French street… the shoplifting from nicer stores …not going to Church anymore on Sunday…not being able to shop in town because crowds gathered…the flirtation with Nance and other young women…the total estrangement from her sister…having the name of her mansion carved on the front steps…***

               

              You’ve admitted to neither knowing nor caring about the Maplecroft years.  Let’s leave it at that.

               

              Knowlton was the one who was ambitious.  He desperately wanted to be the next Attorney General of Mass.

               

              ***I think it was Knowlten who killed the Bordens – with McHenry as his accomplice…

               

              JT

               

               

               

               

               




              ---WHODUNIT???---




              ---WHODUNIT???---

            • Chamberlain Kathleen Reuter
              Muriel wrote -- Hi Pat: To me, incest is out. Mr. Borden had no reason whatsoever to go up those front stairs. Besides, the door leading from his bedroom
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004

                 

                 

                Muriel wrote --

                Hi Pat:

                To me, incest is out.  Mr. Borden had no reason whatsoever to go up those front stairs.  Besides, the door leading from his bedroom into Lizzie's was locked on both sides.

                 

                According to the psychiatrist’s argument, the locked doors and front stairs represent the aftermath of incest –Lizzie protecting herselves when she got old enough to refuse to participate.  To the psychiatrist, the set-up of the house suggested a previous pattern of incest, not a current one.  (If the article is the same one that I’m thinking of, I also heard its author present an oral version of it at the LB conference in Fall River in 1992.  And I read the article, too.  In both cases, the author was very professional and reasonable, never claiming too much, never being sensationalistic or prurient.  She made a very convincing case.)

                 

                Add to this the fact that the girls were born close to five years apart, and this in the age when women were bearing kids year after year.  Andrew was not interested in sex for sex.  He used sex for precreation only.  He was more interested in money than sex.

                 

                Well, we really have no way of knowing Andrew’s attitude toward sex.  These circumstances could have other explanations, so we’re probably better off not offering an opinion / interpretation as if it were fact.  As I say, that’s one of the things that impressed me about the incest article – the author was careful to explain the speculative nature of her thesis.

                 

                Kathleen Chamberlain

                Emory & Henry College

                Emory, VA

              • Muriel Arnold
                Hi Kathleen: Long time no hear. You mentioned a psychiatrist said the locked door between Mr. Borden s and Lizzie s bedroom could represent the aftermath of
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 9, 2004
                  Hi Kathleen:
                  Long time no hear.
                  You mentioned a psychiatrist said the locked door between Mr. Borden's and Lizzie's bedroom could represent the aftermath of incest.  Fine.  Let's look at this another way.
                   
                  1.  Mr. Borden had to have been practicing incest at his father's house.  Otherwise, he had to go through Emma's room to get to Lizzie's (Emma and Lizzie did not change bedrooms till 1890).
                   
                  2.  Mr. Borden was performing this act with both of them.
                  This of course would not surprise me (if this were true), so I say NO WAY.
                   
                  3.  Many people like to believe Lizzie had been a lesbian.  I keep waiting for someone to say Mr. Borden was gay.  This would explain why his three children were born some five years apart.  Failing to produce a son, he called it quits.  Abby, at 37, would still have been young enough to produce an offspring but did not.
                   
                  Sorry gang, but to me Andrew Borden wasn't the least interestesd in sex.  It was MONEY AND MONEY ALONE which ruled his life.  I can't even picture him as being gay, or the family being dysfunctional.  Why were Lizzie's friends, waiting for her to join them in Marion, nearly all school teachers?
                  End of book.  It was nice hearing from you again.  Have a great day.
                  Muriel
                   
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:38 AM
                  Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Jay

                   

                   

                  Muriel wrote --

                  Hi Pat:

                  To me, incest is out.  Mr. Borden had no reason whatsoever to go up those front stairs.  Besides, the door leading from his bedroom into Lizzie's was locked on both sides.

                   

                  According to the psychiatrist’s argument, the locked doors and front stairs represent the aftermath of incest –Lizzie protecting herselves when she got old enough to refuse to participate.  To the psychiatrist, the set-up of the house suggested a previous pattern of incest, not a current one.  (If the article is the same one that I’m thinking of, I also heard its author present an oral version of it at the LB conference in Fall River in 1992.  And I read the article, too.  In both cases, the author was very professional and reasonable, never claiming too much, never being sensationalistic or prurient.  She made a very convincing case.)

                   

                  Add to this the fact that the girls were born close to five years apart, and this in the age when women were bearing kids year after year.  Andrew was not interested in sex for sex.  He used sex for precreation only.  He was more interested in money than sex.

                   

                  Well, we really have no way of knowing Andrew’s attitude toward sex.  These circumstances could have other explanations, so we’re probably better off not offering an opinion / interpretation as if it were fact.  As I say, that’s one of the things that impressed me about the incest article – the author was careful to explain the speculative nature of her thesis.

                   

                  Kathleen Chamberlain

                  Emory & Henry College

                  Emory, VA




                  ---WHODUNIT???---

                • Muriel Arnold
                  Hi JT: This business of locked doors, repressed memories causing her to be neurotic eaxplained Lizzie s confused conversation with Alice the night before the
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 12, 2004
                    Hi JT:
                    This business of locked doors, repressed memories causing her to be neurotic eaxplained Lizzie's confused conversation with Alice the night before the murders, would hold water only IF Lizzie WAS guilty.
                     
                    Over the years we've learned that:
                    Lizzie was not overly bright in school, yet smart enough to out-fox the police AND Knowlton.  My description of Knowlton filled one big fat paragraph.  He put Lizzie to shame.
                    Lizzie was greedy.  Okay.  She had joined several organizations out to help the poor and it was noted that, when they ran short of funds at times, Lizzie used her own money.
                    Lizzie was weird.  Yet, she was on the hospital board, a member of the fruit and flower mission, allegedly taught Sunday school and NO ONE noticed?
                    From the many authors, we learned that Lizzie was a lesbian, epileptic, a victim of incest and lived in a dysfunctional house.
                     
                    As for its being dysfunctional:  Why?  Because everyone in that house did his own thing?  Everyone has his/her own idiosyncracies.  We all do things which drive our siblings crazy.  Take my family:
                    One makes out a money order for $5!!!
                    Another goes to the credit union to put money into her checking account to cover the check she is fixing to write!
                    Another has no checking account.  One day I got a call from my sister saying she had received my card with three $100 bills inside.  She said:  "The least you could do is seal the envelope!!"  Oops.
                    Looks like the Borden family wasn't the only dysfunctional one.
                    Hiram Harrington called Lizzie domineering, hateful and spiteful.  Yet, her friends (nearly all school teachers) were in Marion waiting for her to join them.  They evaluated her as being truthful and fun to have around.
                    As for Lizzie being a kleptomania:  Is it the truth or a myth which turned into a legend?  Those porcelain plates she allegedly stole in Providence:  The owners never did actually verify she had done so.  Years later the so-called proof was destroyed in a fire.
                     
                    Someone found that house to be claustrophobic.  Heck, when it was originally built, it was a two family dwelling.
                    End of book
                    Muriel 
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 7:47 PM
                    Subject: FW: [40Whacks] Jay

                    Kathleen wrote:

                     

                     

                    According to the psychiatrist’s argument, the locked doors and front stairs represent the aftermath of incest –Lizzie protecting herselves when she got old enough to refuse to participate.  To the psychiatrist, the set-up of the house suggested a previous pattern of incest, not a current one. 

                     

                     

                    ***Thanks, Kathleen – I was going to mention this.  Other interesting points in the article include:

                     

                                ***files from child protection agencies in the late 19th century revealed that 36% of reported incest occurred in households where the mother was absent.

                                ***victims dealing with repressed memories would become neurotic without knowing why, similar to the confused feelings Lizzie reported to Alice Russell the night before the murders. 

                                ***incest victims who kill their abusers don’t feel remorse for their actions.  They are “forced to numb their real emotions for so long, by the time of the parricide they have no tears.”

                     

                     

                    Why did Lizzie kill?  This is the heart of the Borden case – what combination of factors made her take the axe…

                     

                    JT

                     

                    •  



                    ---WHODUNIT???---


                  • Muriel Arnold
                    Sorry JT, but, let s face it. The reporters never sought Hiram Harrington out again to learn anything else other than that particular interview. Hiram
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 13, 2004
                      Sorry JT, but, let's face it.  The reporters never sought Hiram Harrington out again to learn anything else other than that particular interview.  Hiram Harrington was extremely jealous of Andrew Borden.  It irked him to have to earn his living by the sweat of his brow while Andrew walked around town in his business suit  making money doing nothing.
                       
                      Animosity existed between Sarah Whitehead and both Lizzie and Emma.  As you probably know, Sarah tried to convince people that the $50,000 in cash found in Andrew's safe actually belonged to Abby as "she did not write checks."
                      Yet Sarah told friends that Andrew gave Abby, Lizzie and Emma $2 a week spending money.
                      That made Emma so mad that she threatened to get Abby's share of the 4th Street house.  Sarah backed down.  Emma kept the money and Sarah kept the house.
                       
                      But JT, you are quite free to believe Hiram Harrington.  The reporters he spoke to sure as hell didn't.
                      Muriel
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 9:50 PM
                      Subject: FW: [40Whacks] Jay

                       

                       

                      Muriel wrote:

                      This business of locked doors, repressed memories causing her to be neurotic eaxplained Lizzie's confused conversation with Alice the night before the murders, would hold water only IF Lizzie WAS guilty.

                       

                      **Since she was guilty, then it obviously holds water…

                       

                      Hiram Harrington called Lizzie domineering, hateful and spiteful. 

                       

                      ***I’ll accept Harrington’s opinion over yours.  His wife Lurana (Andrews’s sister) and the Whitehead’s had a unique perspective on the Lizzie/Abby dynamic.  When the murders happened, they knew the who and the why.

                       

                      JT 

                       

                       

                       




                      ---WHODUNIT???---




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                      ---WHODUNIT???---


                    • Jeffrey Tesch
                      To the Group: I just got an email from Jay - one of my former minions from Maine. You all remember Jay - very perceptive dude who knew that Lizzie did it. He
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jun 22, 2006

                        To the Group:

                         

                        I just got an email from Jay – one of my former minions from Maine.

                         

                        You all remember Jay – very perceptive dude who knew that Lizzie did it.

                         

                        He has been monitoring the group, but can’t post because no one will let him back in.  Are other folks having this problem?  Who is the facilitator?

                         

                        Also, I have been devouring my 16 new articles of Borden literature from the Kenneth Souza collection – fascinating stuff.

                         

                        So far the best piece was from “The Astrologer Looks at Murder”, containing a 30 page chapter on Lizzie.  From the title you wouldn’t think it, but it’s one of the best essays I’ve ever read on the case – and I’ve read quite a few.

                         

                        I will post some reviews soon, along with some new information gleaned from these works.

                         

                        And thanks again to Laura James for providing the link to this site.  Anyone who hasn’t checked out her true crime blog should do so post haste…

                         

                        JT

                      • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                        I ve had someone contact me who couldn t get back in to the group, and I think Autumn has too. We don t know who the list owner/manager is who is supposed to
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jun 22, 2006
                          I've had someone contact me who couldn't get back in to the group, and I think Autumn has too. We don't know who the list owner/manager is who is supposed to give permission... I guess we could contact Yahoo and find out.
                           
                          Pat
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