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  • clemson329
    Hey All, I m fairly new to the group and want to say that I enjoy it more than most of my groups. The posts are always interesting. I ve been intrigued by the
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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      Hey All,

      I'm fairly new to the group and want to say that I enjoy it more
      than most of my groups. The posts are always interesting.
      I've been intrigued by the case since I was a little boy and
      saw "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" and it scared the %$## out of me.
      Over the years I've read alot of the books and am always looking for
      new stuff about that fateful day in August 1892.

      There seems to be a great variance of opinion re: whodunnit and I
      wonder if y'all would do me a favor and (at least the major
      participants) briefly tell me who you think did it. This would make
      your current posts make more sense. I'm going to read through all
      the posts but that will take a while. Thanks.

      For my part I've gone back and forth over the years but can honestly
      say I don't know who did it. That's what's great about it---all the
      possibilities. If I had been a juror I could never have voted to
      convict, however, because of the huge shadow of a doubt.

      As for the "odd duck" thing--my family has lived in the deep South
      for centuries and that is a common expression down here.

      Thanks for any replies,

      Patrick Storey
      Charleston SC
    • jselber1@maine.rr.com
      Hi Patrick, Welcome aboard! This list has 3 major schools of thought-- 1. That Lizzie did it (in my humble opinion, all that I have read leads me to feel
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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        Hi Patrick,

        Welcome aboard!

        This list has 3 major schools of thought--

        1. That Lizzie did it (in my humble opinion, all that I have read leads me
        to feel confident in that conclusion.)

        2. Bridget did it. (well, Muriel thinks so. Whether this is a major
        school of thought, I can't say. I do know she defends her position with
        sincere and frequent posts.) I can't recall if she has any supporters on
        the list.

        3. Undecided. June is a major proponent of this school, as she doesn't
        feel there is enough proof that any of the major characters are guilty.

        Maybe we should do a poll of our members. Or start another school of
        thought. A book from about 10 years ago suggested Lizzie had a
        half-brother due to Andrew's philandering. I was intrigued by the book,
        but not totally convinced.

        Jay



        Hey All,<BR>
        <BR>
        I'm fairly new to the group and want to say that I  enjoy it more <BR>
        than most of my groups. The posts are always interesting.<BR>
        I've been intrigued by the case since I was a little boy and <BR>
        saw "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" and it scared the %$## out of me. <BR>
        Over the years I've read alot of the books and am always looking for <BR>
        new stuff about that fateful day in August 1892.<BR>
        Thanks for any replies,<BR>
        <BR>
        Patrick Storey<BR>
        Charleston SC<BR>
        <BR>
        <BR>


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      • Patsy751@aol.com
        Welcome Patrick. My opinion is that Lizzie did it, but I would be open to a discussion that she didn t actually do it physically, but allowed, arranged or
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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          Welcome Patrick.
          My opinion is that Lizzie did it, but I would be open to a discussion that she didn't actually do it physically, but allowed, arranged or helped someone else do it.  I would recommend the latest book that I just finished, "The Cases That Haunt Us".  Also read Victoria Lincoln's book.  It's terrific.

          Sorry, Patrick, but this whole thing is like eating potato chips....you just can't stop at one.

          Patsy
        • Muriel Arnold
          Hi Patsy: You mention Victoria Lincoln s book as being terrific. My mother had a copy of her book and she also believed her. I tore into that book and when I
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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            Hi Patsy:
            You mention Victoria Lincoln's book as being terrific.  My mother had a copy of her book and she also believed her.  I tore into that book and when I finished, it would have filled a chapter.  My mother then changed it from being Lizzie and Lizzie and Bridget.  It took another two years convince her that Bridget alone was guilty.  Her reason why she had not believed Bridtet guilty?  Bridget was Catholic!!!
             
            Reporters, seeking to earn the $5,000 ($100,00 today), tried at least three times to tell Knowlton that he had arrested the wrong woman, but Bridget, being his star witness, and he wishing to use this case to foster his political ambition on becoming the next Attorney General of Mass., refused to listen.
             
            What happened when Lizzie was arrested?  Mrs. Bowen was shocked.  Mrs. Churchill expressed little concern and Bridget told them it was about time they arrested Lizzie Borden, even though she did not think her to be guilty.  Less than a week later, Dr. Bowen asked reporters why Bridget had not also been arrested.  Was she saying things to save herself?  That told me he KNEW Bridget was telling lies.
            End of book.
            Muriel
             
             
            Muriel Arnold
             
            Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
            For more information
            muriela@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 5:41 PM
            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] First post

            Welcome Patrick.
            My opinion is that Lizzie did it, but I would be open to a discussion that she didn't actually do it physically, but allowed, arranged or helped someone else do it.  I would recommend the latest book that I just finished, "The Cases That Haunt Us".  Also read Victoria Lincoln's book.  It's terrific.

            Sorry, Patrick, but this whole thing is like eating potato chips....you just can't stop at one.

            Patsy


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          • Muriel Arnold
            Hi Jay: This half-brother of Lizzie s that you mention, the first I heard of it was in some newspaper which appeared in Maryland. Old man Borden was a cold
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 25, 2003
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              Hi Jay:
              This half-brother of Lizzie's that you mention, the first I heard of it was
              in some newspaper which appeared in Maryland. Old man Borden was a cold
              fish. This idea of his philandering won't wash. Unfortunately, we can't go
              back and question the author. Odds are it's another one of McHenry's
              scoops. I believe another such story came out of Penn., but I no longer
              have all my newspaper clippings (three large notebooks full) to show where
              and when these occurred.
              Muriel


              Muriel Arnold

              Author of Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
              For more information
              muriela@...
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <jselber1@...>
              To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, August 25, 2003 2:13 PM
              Subject: RE: [40Whacks] First post


              Hi Patrick,

              Welcome aboard!

              This list has 3 major schools of thought--

              1. That Lizzie did it (in my humble opinion, all that I have read leads me
              to feel confident in that conclusion.)

              2. Bridget did it. (well, Muriel thinks so. Whether this is a major
              school of thought, I can't say. I do know she defends her position with
              sincere and frequent posts.) I can't recall if she has any supporters on
              the list.

              3. Undecided. June is a major proponent of this school, as she doesn't
              feel there is enough proof that any of the major characters are guilty.

              Maybe we should do a poll of our members. Or start another school of
              thought. A book from about 10 years ago suggested Lizzie had a
              half-brother due to Andrew's philandering. I was intrigued by the book,
              but not totally convinced.

              Jay



              Hey All,<BR>
              <BR>
              I'm fairly new to the group and want to say that I enjoy it more <BR>
              than most of my groups. The posts are always interesting.<BR>
              I've been intrigued by the case since I was a little boy and <BR>
              saw "The Legend of Lizzie Borden" and it scared the %$## out of me. <BR>
              Over the years I've read alot of the books and am always looking for <BR>
              new stuff about that fateful day in August 1892.<BR>
              Thanks for any replies,<BR>
              <BR>
              Patrick Storey<BR>
              Charleston SC<BR>
              <BR>
              <BR>


              --------------------------------------------------------------------
              mail2web - Check your email from the web at
              http://mail2web.com/ .




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            • Autumn
              Hi Patrick and WELCOME! I also think that Lizzie did it and I think that she did it alone but I think she had help in disposing of the evidence (like the help
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 26, 2003
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                Hi Patrick and WELCOME!

                I also think that Lizzie did it and I think that she
                did it alone but I think she had help in disposing of
                the evidence (like the help of the good doctor).
                Inspite of believing she is a double murderess, I
                can't help but have a genuine fondness for her.

                Autumn

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              • Muriel Arnold
                Hi Autumn: What a difference between the two of us. You believe Lizzie guilty, have the good doctor help her get rid of the weapon, yet have a genuine
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 26, 2003
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                  Hi Autumn:
                  What a difference between the two of us. You believe Lizzie guilty, have
                  the good doctor help her get rid of the weapon, yet have a genuine fondness
                  for her.

                  I believe Lizzie innocent, the good doctor had nothing to do with disposing
                  of the weapon, and I have never felt anything for Lizzie. The only one I
                  ever felt any emotion for was Mrs. Bowen, who was ill for quite awhile. She
                  was also the only one to really show any emotion for the Bordens, Mrs.
                  Borden especially.
                  Muriel


                  Muriel Arnold

                  Author of Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                  For more information
                  muriela@...
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Autumn <Autumnlite@...>
                  To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2003 5:37 PM
                  Subject: Re: [40Whacks] First post


                  > Hi Patrick and WELCOME!
                  >
                  > I also think that Lizzie did it and I think that she
                  > did it alone but I think she had help in disposing of
                  > the evidence (like the help of the good doctor).
                  > Inspite of believing she is a double murderess, I
                  > can't help but have a genuine fondness for her.
                  >
                  > Autumn
                  >
                  > __________________________________
                  > Do you Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software
                  > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  > ---WHODUNIT???---
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                  In a message dated 8/27/2003 12:13:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I have always felt how stifling her life must have been living in that house. She must have
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 27, 2003
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                    In a message dated 8/27/2003 12:13:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, muriela@... writes:


                    I have never felt anything for Lizzie.


                    I have always felt how stifling her life must have been living in that house. She must have seen her friends getting married and having their own homes and in those days there was no place (other than parents' home) for an unmarried woman.

                    As a sidenote, I just finished reading "The Devil in The White City" which is a true story of a serial killer at the time of the Chicago Columbian Exposition in 1892 and Lizzie is briefly mentioned. It's a wonderful book where the serial killer's life is intertwined with the chief architect of the fair, getting ready for it, city life at that time, etc. One of the ways the killer was able to kill as many young women as he could is that this fair was one of the first times it was considered acceptable for young women to travel by themselves or in groups -- to come to this fair. It's interesting to hear the social mores of that day. By the way, shredded wheat and cracker jack were both introduced at the fair, as was the Ferris Wheel.

                    If you're interested in true crime (which I know you are), but also social history, architecture, cities, etc., it's a great book. This author also wrote a book about the Galveston Hurricane (I believe that was in 1900) which I want to read too.

                    Pat
                  • WestList@AOL.com
                    In a message dated 8/27/2003 9:59:52 AM Central Daylight Time, PatriciaLu@aol.com writes: She must have seen her friends getting married and having their own
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 27, 2003
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                      In a message dated 8/27/2003 9:59:52 AM Central Daylight Time, PatriciaLu@... writes:
                      She must have seen her friends getting married and having their own homes and in those days there was no place (other than parents' home) for an unmarried woman.
                      I'm not really buying-in to the "Lizzy was a lesbian" theory, but I don't recall ever
                      reading of any romantic involvement or even any prospective suitors. That goes for
                      Emma too.  Was the family considered so "odd" that no young man would even
                      approach the girls?  From the pictures I've seen, Lizzy appears to be fairly
                      attractive... so why the total absence of male interest?  Or have I just not come
                      across anything in the limited reading I've done?
                       
                       
                    • Muriel Arnold
                      Hi Pat: You said: Lizzie reminds me of the only one of us five girls who
                      Message 10 of 13 , Aug 27, 2003
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                        Hi Pat:
                        You said:
                        <I have always felt how stifling her life must have been living in that house...etc.>
                         
                        Lizzie reminds me of the only one of us five girls who never got married.  She lived at home, went out and worked, but did what she wanted to do after that.  In all those years, I never received a letter from her saying she wished she were someplace else or that she regretted not having gotten married, even when we showed up with our kids.
                         
                        I'm sure Lizzie ran into quite a few men in her lifetime.  The impression most authors leave us with is that to get to her they would have to go through Andrew Borden and he would have preventing Lizzie from marrying them.  The way I see it, Andrew would have welcomed a son-in-law, seeing he had no son.  At least he would have had a chance of having a grandson.
                         
                        I believe that neither Emma nor Lizzie tried very hard to get married and that it must have irritated Andrew some about neither showing any sign of wanting to get married.  Has it ever occurred to you, that just maybe, they didn't want to give up their freedom? 
                         
                        Maybe my family is similar to the Bordens.  Of the four who had gotten married, one lost her husband (he was killed in 1970) and she never remarried.  Another got divorced some ten years ago, and she never remarried.  My husband died five years ago and I wouldn't dream of giving up my freedom again.
                         
                        I say the only reason Emma and Lizzie moved out of the Second Street house was because their parents were slaughtered there.
                         
                        Thanks for mentioning "The Devil in the White City".  I'll see if our library has it.  I'd be curious to find out what made that killer tick.  Most serial killers start off mistreating animals.  Most seem to have been born without a conscience.
                         
                        Finally, not all women were created to be satisfied with what goes on in a house.  All that entails is never-ending work with nothing to show for your efforts.  BORING.  What makes life interesting occurrs outside the house.
                        End of book
                        Muriel
                         
                         
                        Muriel Arnold
                         
                        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                        For more information
                        muriela@...
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:52 AM
                        Subject: Re: [40Whacks] First post

                        In a message dated 8/27/2003 12:13:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, muriela@... writes:


                        I have never felt anything for Lizzie.


                        I have always felt how stifling her life must have been living in that house. She must have seen her friends getting married and having their own homes and in those days there was no place (other than parents' home) for an unmarried woman.

                        As a sidenote, I just finished reading "The Devil in The White City" which is a true story of a serial killer at the time of the Chicago Columbian Exposition in 1892 and Lizzie is briefly mentioned. It's a wonderful book where the serial killer's life is intertwined with the chief architect of the fair, getting ready for it, city life at that time, etc. One of the ways the killer was able to kill as many young women as he could is that this fair was one of the first times it was considered acceptable for young women to travel by themselves or in groups -- to come to this fair. It's interesting to hear the social mores of that day. By the way, shredded wheat and cracker jack were both introduced at the fair, as was the Ferris Wheel.

                        If you're interested in true crime (which I know you are), but also social history, architecture, cities, etc., it's a great book. This author also wrote a book about the Galveston Hurricane (I believe that was in 1900) which I want to read too.

                        Pat


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                      • Muriel Arnold
                        Hi WestList: Lizzie did have a couple of guys who showed interest in her at one time or another. She just wasn t interested. And no, I never considered Lizzie
                        Message 11 of 13 , Aug 27, 2003
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                          Hi WestList:
                           
                          Lizzie did have a couple of guys who showed interest in her at one time or another.  She just wasn't interested.
                          And no, I never considered Lizzie as even being close to being a lesbian.  People these days seem to have even dirtier minds than they did back in the 1890's .  But then again, there are more than three times as many people living in the U.S. as there were in Lizzie's time that could account for those dirty minds.
                           
                          The reason some people called her a lesbian is because she never did get married.
                          It has never dawned to them that Lizzie valued her freedom more than follow the norms of society of that time.  Abby was 37 when she married Andrew Borden and yet no author ever implied that she had been a lesbian.
                          Muriel
                           
                           
                          Muriel Arnold
                           
                          Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                          For more information
                          muriela@...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 10:54 AM
                          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] First post

                          In a message dated 8/27/2003 9:59:52 AM Central Daylight Time, PatriciaLu@... writes:
                          She must have seen her friends getting married and having their own homes and in those days there was no place (other than parents' home) for an unmarried woman.
                          I'm not really buying-in to the "Lizzy was a lesbian" theory, but I don't recall ever
                          reading of any romantic involvement or even any prospective suitors. That goes for
                          Emma too.  Was the family considered so "odd" that no young man would even
                          approach the girls?  From the pictures I've seen, Lizzy appears to be fairly
                          attractive... so why the total absence of male interest?  Or have I just not come
                          across anything in the limited reading I've done?
                           
                           


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                        • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                          In a message dated 8/27/2003 1:06:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... Just so you understand my point of view about seeing her friends get married, I am 52, have
                          Message 12 of 13 , Aug 27, 2003
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                            In a message dated 8/27/2003 1:06:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, muriela@... writes:


                            Finally, not all women were created to be satisfied with what goes on in a house.  All that entails is never-ending work with nothing to show for your efforts.  BORING.  What makes life interesting occurrs outside the house.


                            Just so you understand my point of view about seeing her friends get married, I am 52, have never been married, can't say I feel bad about it because I've had and am having a really wonderful life.

                            However, I also have had tremendous freedom to go where I want and do what I want with really very little societal pressure.

                            When I was growing up "old maid" and "spinster" were very common terms -- in fact, we played "old maid" card game -- wonder if that g
                          • Autumn
                            In one book I read (I can t remember which but think it may have been Proceedings ) the author s thoughts on that were that Emma and Lizzie were in a
                            Message 13 of 13 , Aug 28, 2003
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                              In one book I read (I can't remember which but think
                              it may have been "Proceedings") the author's thoughts
                              on that were that Emma and Lizzie were in a difficulat
                              position because of the "lifestyle" they had due to
                              Andrews frugality. The Bordens lived in the downscale
                              part of town and the kind of young men that Andrew
                              would have welcomed for them was unlikely to come down
                              from The Hill to court them. Living where they did the
                              kind of males who would have come calling were not the
                              kind Andrew would have approved of and welcomed into
                              the family.

                              Anyway, just a thought.

                              Autumn


                              --- WestList@... wrote:
                              > In a message dated 8/27/2003 9:59:52 AM Central
                              > Daylight Time, I don't
                              > recall ever
                              > reading of any romantic involvement or even any
                              > prospective suitors. That
                              > goes for
                              > Emma too. Was the family considered so "odd" that
                              > no young man would even
                              > approach the girls? From the pictures I've seen,
                              > Lizzy appears to be fairly
                              > attractive... so why the total absence of male
                              > interest? Or have I just not
                              > come
                              > across anything in the limited reading I've done?
                              >


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