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Re: [40Whacks] The House on the Hill

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  • Patsy751@aol.com
    Hi J.T. and Group, Actually, we re not asleep! I wanted to tell the group that I recently bought from ebay a reproduction of a 1893 scrapbook that someone
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 13 11:11 AM
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      Hi  J.T. and Group,
      Actually, we're not asleep!  I wanted to tell the group that I recently bought from ebay a reproduction of a 1893 scrapbook that someone kept which mainly contained unusual obituaries for the entire year.  I don't know what would compel  someone to keep this, but actually it was quite fascinating.  A very interesting feature was that if someone was very ill or hurt very badly, the article would say "and they will die".   Man, I sure wouldn't like to pick up a paper and read that about myself.

      I bought the scrapbook because along with the obits, it included extensive articles on the Lizzie Borden trial.  I know that I would be able to find these article elsewhere now, but to read what was written (along with the current articles of the day) in what felt like real time was great fun.  If you read these pieces, you would have been convinced that you don't even know how she was even brought to trial by these mean men.....picking on this young, dutiful, innocent, sweet daughter who loved her stepmother and father, who did for the poor,  and how it was impossible for a lady to commit a crime as unthinkable as this.

      Also since the articles were in date order, you also read about the murder of Bertha Manchester who died in a similar manner which of course all the jurors would have been aware of at the time.  I know this is old news to us, but you rreally got the feeling that there was a maniac out there somewhere!

      Okay, JT, my Maplecroft question would be:  Do you believe that Emma left because of  Lizzie's association with the theater (aka prostitutes) people or was it darker than that?

      Patsy
    • Muriel Arnold
      Hi Patsy: You said that reading those articles made one convinced that Lizzie should not have been brought to trial by these (the prosecutors) mean men who
      Message 2 of 5 , Jul 13 8:33 PM
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        Hi Patsy:
        You said that reading those articles made one convinced that Lizzie should not have been brought to trial by these (the prosecutors) mean men who picked on this young, dutiful, innocent sweet daughter who loved her stepmother and father, who did for the poor, and how it was impossible for a lady to commit a crime as unthinkable as this,.
         
        Well, I agree with you in some ways.  Several lawyers after the trial gave their opinions.  Some claimed the prosecution knew they had no case but had gone ahead and had her tried anyway.  That Lizzie should not have been arrested to begin with.  That the case should not have even reached the hearing.
         
        District Attorney Knowlton knew he had no case in 1892.  He stated that they, having had her arrested, would have to take her to trial in order to satisfy the public.  He tried to find insanity in the Borden and Morse families.  He even tried to get Adams to go along and have her sanity tested.  This he had refused to do.  Knowlton was trying to rid himself of this case by throwing it on the courts to determine Lizzie's fate.
         
        I disagree with you in that Lizzie loved her stepmother.  She didn't hate her enough to want to kill her.  Lizzie and Emma just ignored her and went about their daily lives.  They spoke to Abby civilly, but not confidentially.  They were three grown women livng under the same roof, each doing as she pleased.  As for Andrew Borden, so long as things went his way, he could have cared less about what they did, providing they didn't keep asking him for money.  Accumulation of money ruled his life.
         
        The murder of Bertha Manchester was a bloody mess.  Many is the time I wished Jose Correiro would have told the cops what he was thinking when he passed her father on Stone Bridge after having killed Bertha.  Did he laugh?  Did he want to turn back and hide and watch the old man's reaction to finding Bertha's body?  After all, the old man had slapped him and fired him two weeks before.
         
        Old man Manchester reminds you of Andrew Borden.  He pinched pennies.  Most farm hands got paid by the day.  If his helper did nothing for an hour, old man Manchester wouldn't pay him for that hour.  That is what caused Jose to go back there to try and get the wages he thought he should have gotten.  Unfortunately, Bertha spoke no Portuguese and Jose spoke no English.  He did tell the cops that Bertha fed him fish three times a day and he didn't like fish!!!
         
        If you recall, Knowlton had claimed Abby had been killed by a woman who struck Abby 19 times, while  a man would have done the job in two or three blows.  No mention was made at the trial that Jose had struck Bertha 23 times.
         
        If Knowlton had stayed in New Bedford where he belonged, I sincerely believe the Fall River police would have solved the Borden case.  You have to blame Knowlton for this "Crime of the Century."  You have to remember that most policemen in 1892 walked.  Every time they left the station, reporters followed them.  They tried several times to tell Knowlton he'd had the wrong one arrested.
        Muriel
         
         
        Muriel Arnold
         
        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
        For more information
        muriela@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 1:11 PM
        Subject: Re: [40Whacks] The House on the Hill

        Hi  J.T. and Group,
        Actually, we're not asleep!  I wanted to tell the group that I recently bought from ebay a reproduction of a 1893 scrapbook that someone kept which mainly contained unusual obituaries for the entire year.  I don't know what would compel  someone to keep this, but actually it was quite fascinating.  A very interesting feature was that if someone was very ill or hurt very badly, the article would say "and they will die".   Man, I sure wouldn't like to pick up a paper and read that about myself.

        I bought the scrapbook because along with the obits, it included extensive articles on the Lizzie Borden trial.  I know that I would be able to find these article elsewhere now, but to read what was written (along with the current articles of the day) in what felt like real time was great fun.  If you read these pieces, you would have been convinced that you don't even know how she was even brought to trial by these mean men.....picking on this young, dutiful, innocent, sweet daughter who loved her stepmother and father, who did for the poor,  and how it was impossible for a lady to commit a crime as unthinkable as this.

        Also since the articles were in date order, you also read about the murder of Bertha Manchester who died in a similar manner which of course all the jurors would have been aware of at the time.  I know this is old news to us, but you rreally got the feeling that there was a maniac out there somewhere!

        Okay, JT, my Maplecroft question would be:  Do you believe that Emma left because of  Lizzie's association with the theater (aka prostitutes) people or was it darker than that?

        Patsy


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      • Patsy751@aol.com
        In a message dated 07/13/2003 11:55:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... would have concluded. This is not what I believe. The rigid standard of behavior was so
        Message 3 of 5 , Jul 14 9:19 AM
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          In a message dated 07/13/2003 11:55:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, muriela@... writes:


          You said that reading those articles made one convinced that Liz should not have been brought to trial by these (the prosecutors) mean men who picked on this young, dutiful, innocent sweet daughter who loved her stepmother and father, who did for the poor, and how it was impossible for a lady to commit a crime as unthinkable as this,.


          This is how I interpreted the articles, and how many reading them at the time would have concluded.  This is not what I believe.   The rigid standard of behavior was so evident  in the language of the articles.  In many of the pieces, a person would be called "a drunk" or a woman characterized as "a woman of ill repute".  If someone committed suicide, there would not be a detail unexamined for public consumption. 

          For example in the Bertha Manchester murder the last paragraph reads as follows:

          "The girl is spoken of by her neighbors all along the road as a fine woman.  She is not known to have any  lover or regular callers.  All speak of her as a modest, retiring, self-sacrificing.  She possessed a good figure and face, and was attractive and lovable."

          In the minds of the day, I don't think people could make the leap that it would take to visualize this good Christian woman as a murderer.

          Patsy

             
        • Jay Selberg
          Jeffrey!! Your Maine minion is simply aghast! I have been on vacation, and that included from the computer. Just read your posts. Of course, I want to
          Message 4 of 5 , Jul 15 3:27 AM
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            Jeffrey!!
             
            Your Maine minion is simply aghast!  I have been on vacation, and that included from the computer.   Just read your posts.   Of course, I want to hear more, more, more!!
             
            Thanks ever!
             
            Was the Ann Rule movie you referenced a recent one?  Didn't Mark Harmon play Ted in a movie and was it that one from years ago?  Am I so out of the loop?
             
            (I live on an island and we just had a seaside wedding for my sister, who 'eloped' here.  She gave me 5 weekends notice for me to get the place shipshape!  I am tuckered.  Now, though, the rest of the summer is mine.  Still hoping to do a day trip  to Fall River before too long.  When do the tours end for the season, can anyone tell me?  Anyone want to join me?) 
             
            Jay
             

             

            I’ve been a Maplecroft tease long enough…

             

            YES YOU HAVE

             

             

            And Jay – I have another eerie Ted Bundy coincidence.  Unsolved basement bedroom bludgeoning of two airline stewardesses in 1966 (one died).  Our boy Ted was a nineteen year old store clerk working just blocks away, and this crime had similarities to the 1978 Chi Omega rampage that put him in the electric chair.  If you’re interested we could side chat.

             

            And did anyone who followed my Ted Bundy/Ann Marie Burr conundrum see the TV Movie recently called “Ann Rule’s Stranger Beside Me”?  The very last scene showed a 14 year old Bundy talking to 8 year old Ann Marie on her front porch in broad daylight!  (she was abducted in the middle of the night.)  And the last shot showed them walking off down the street together, Ted with his arm around her, other neighbors bustling about…

             

            The fact that they lived 3 miles apart didn’t seem to bother Ann.

             

            Fire away, minions! 

             

          • Jeffrey Tesch
            Walk up Everybody! This list is deader than those barn pigeons that Andrew decapitated. I ve been a Maplecroft tease long enough. But first, could
            Message 5 of 5 , Jan 3, 1936
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              Walk up Everybody!  This list is deader than those barn pigeons that Andrew decapitated… 

               

               

              I’ve been a Maplecroft tease long enough…

               

              But first, could AugustinFallRiver please confirm her evidence that Lizzie died in a hospital.  This is central to my research.

               

              Anyone else, throw out a Maplecroft question.  I’ll try to answer without compromising my project.

               

              And Jay – I have another eerie Ted Bundy coincidence.  Unsolved basement bedroom bludgeoning of two airline stewardesses in 1966 (one died).  Our boy Ted was a nineteen year old store clerk working just blocks away, and this crime had similarities to the 1978 Chi Omega rampage that put him in the electric chair.  If you’re interested we could side chat.

               

              And did anyone who followed my Ted Bundy/Ann Marie Burr conundrum see the TV Movie recently called “Ann Rule’s Stranger Beside Me”?  The very last scene showed a 14 year old Bundy talking to 8 year old Ann Marie on her front porch in broad daylight!  (she was abducted in the middle of the night.)  And the last shot showed them walking off down the street together, Ted with his arm around her, other neighbors bustling about…

               

              The fact that they lived 3 miles apart didn’t seem to bother Ann.

               

              Fire away, minions! 

               

              Relentlessly yours,

               

              JT

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