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Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

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  • Muriel Arnold
    Muriel Arnold Author of Lizzie Borden Hands of Time For more information muriela@cox-internet.com ... From: Patsy751@aol.com To: 40Whacks@yahoogroups.com
    Message 1 of 14 , May 11 9:57 AM
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      Muriel Arnold
       
      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
      For more information
      muriela@...
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:27 AM
      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

      Dear Muriel,
      I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around Brigitte's guilt simply because I cannot accept that she had any credible motive.  It is just too difficult for me to swallow that she was upset about the window washing.  From what I can see, she had relatively little responsibility relative to what other maids had to do at that time.  She didn't have to bother with the upstairs.  Mrs. Broden took care of her own bedroom, and helped her with the downstairs.  As it was Mrs. Borden was dusting and taking care of the guest bedroom on the day she died!  So Brigitte didn't have the feeling that the family was reclining on the sofa scarfing grapes ordering her around  while she slaved away!

      Maybe (and this is a huge maybe) I could be convinced that she kept quiet about some incrimminating evidence against Lizzie (hence her almost deathbed confession), but that's it.

      Patsy


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    • PatriciaLu@aol.com
      In a message dated 5/11/2003 12:29:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... I agree with Patsy on this. I feel as if I have an open-mind about the case, but I have
      Message 2 of 14 , May 11 10:23 AM
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        In a message dated 5/11/2003 12:29:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@... writes:


        Maybe (and this is a huge maybe) I could be convinced that she kept quiet about some incrimminating evidence against Lizzie (hence her almost deathbed confession), but that's it.


        I agree with Patsy on this. I feel as if I have an open-mind about the case, but I have just never come upon anything that really sways me. Ironically, there's part of me that *wants* to be swayed -- it would make the whole case more interesting in a way. I agree with what Patsy said about Bridget's motive. I get the feeling as if Bridget and Mrs. Borden liked each other, worked together... Bridget does not seem like a "disgruntled employee" -- or the 19th century equivalent of the person who comes to the workplace with a gun.

        Having said that, I do think Bridget may have known something or seen something either that day or later on. Montana is a whole long way from Massachusetts -- even today and her choice of Montana always struck me as "get me as far away from here as possible."

        Pat in NY
      • Muriel Arnold
        Hi Patsy: We know that Jennings had sent his assistant and an investigator to Newport, R.I., to check up on Bridget. Their report was that the only thing they
        Message 3 of 14 , May 11 2:22 PM
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          Hi Patsy:
          We know that Jennings had sent his assistant and an investigator to Newport, R.I., to check up on Bridget.  Their report was that the only thing they learned was that she was considered a good worker, but that she had a very hot temper.
           
          Someone said they counted where Bridget lied over 100 times after the murders.  You can see where I show Bridget lied 10 times out of the 12 stories she gave about what she did from 10:55 and 11:00.  The only two which were not lies was when she told Benjamin Buffinton that she heard the City Hall clock strike 11:00 just before Lizzie called her downstairs, and that she spoke to Mr. Borden about five minutes before he was killed.
           
          Bridget was never asked to explain how she knew that, seeing that she claimed it was ten or fifteen minutes after she went upstairs that Lizzie sounded the alarm.  What it ended up being was that Bridget's 11:10 has been accepted as the actual time Lizzie sounded the alarm, thus giving the murderer 15 minutes to kill Mr. Borden.
           
          Take Lizzie's version.  Her father came home, Bridget entered the kitchen and told her that Mr. Borden had forgotten his keys (they were found on him) and went went up to her room.  Lizzie left the kitchen, joined her father in the sitting room, helped him change coats.  It had taken two or three minutes, left him and went directly to the barn.  She had told Dr. Bowen and Mrs. Churchill that she was gone not more than five minutes.  Then you have Timothy Sullivan, a conductor for the Globe Street Railway Company, who told reporters he saw Mr. Borden enter his home at 10:52. 
           
          Now add Lizzie's two to three minutes, and you have Lizzie going to the barn at 10:55, the very time Bridget claimed she went up to her room.
           
          Why would Bridget have any reason for killing Mrs. Borden?  Some believe Bridget, who said she wanted to leave, but seeing how Mrs. Borden had told her that she would be lonely without her, Bridget decided to say.  That's bull....  Others claim she would be afraid to lose her job, as her reason not to kill Mrs. Borden.  More bull...
           
          Of course she would lose her job if she killed Mrs. Borden.  She wouldn't have lost it if someone else had done so as, within a week of Bridget telling Emma she was leaving and would not be coming back, Emma had hired another maid.
           
          Though I could very well be wrong, Bridget's headaches, which she claimed she was  having lots them, could have been hangovers.  If she ate mutton for breakfast, that tainted meat could have made her feel queasy to her stomach, making her real lousy, then along came Mrs. Borden wanting the windows washed.
           
          Bridget had 13 regular sized windows to wash and one on each side of the front door.  Lizzie claimed Bridget did not wash the kitchen ones.  Bridget testified that she had eleven windows to wash and did not wash the kitchen ones.  Now who is lying again?
          End of book
          Have a great day,
          Muriel
           
           
           
          If you remember anything about Watergate (the break-in at the Democratic Headquarters, where "Deep Throat" told the Washington reporters to follow the money, well I say, in the Borden case, follow Bridget's timetable as she gave it; a timetable which she changed, at her convenience, time and time again.
           
           
          Muriel Arnold
           
          Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
          For more information
          muriela@...
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:27 AM
          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

          Dear Muriel,
          I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around Brigitte's guilt simply because I cannot accept that she had any credible motive.  It is just too difficult for me to swallow that she was upset about the window washing.  From what I can see, she had relatively little responsibility relative to what other maids had to do at that time.  She didn't have to bother with the upstairs.  Mrs. Broden took care of her own bedroom, and helped her with the downstairs.  As it was Mrs. Borden was dusting and taking care of the guest bedroom on the day she died!  So Brigitte didn't have the feeling that the family was reclining on the sofa scarfing grapes ordering her around  while she slaved away!

          Maybe (and this is a huge maybe) I could be convinced that she kept quiet about some incrimminating evidence against Lizzie (hence her almost deathbed confession), but that's it.

          Patsy


          ---WHODUNIT???---

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        • PatriciaLu@aol.com
          Muriel -- I really read your email carefully, and I don t doubt all the events which happened afterward, but I still just don t get what you are saying about
          Message 4 of 14 , May 11 7:16 PM
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            Muriel -- I really read your email carefully, and I don't doubt all the
            events which happened afterward, but I still just don't get what you are
            saying about the day of the murders about Bridget's motive.

            Even if she drank, even if she was sick with food poisoning, even if it was
            hot and she didn't want to work, I still don't buy that that's a motive for
            killing two people.

            Is that what you say Bridget's motive is? That she'd just kill the boss so
            she didn't have to do the work and could go lie down? I'm not being
            sarcastic, just trying to figure out what you think her motive was. Leave out
            the later inconsistencies and lies -- I'm not questioning those --just look
            at that morning and please tell me her motive.

            Pat in NY
          • Muriel Arnold
            Hi Pat: Yep, it seems there is no way I can get my message across without coming out with Bridget having to have had a motive for the killings. Even District
            Message 5 of 14 , May 12 11:09 AM
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              Hi Pat:

              Yep, it seems there is no way I can get my message across without coming
              out with Bridget having to have had a motive for the killings.

              Even District Attorney Knowlton told the jurors that there need be no motive
              but there was always a cause. You know yourself the way murders are being
              committed these days, a lot of them have no motive, but a cause. Like the
              three men down this way, drinking in a bar, got into an argument with
              another guy. They ended up leaving the bar together. The night ended by
              the three of them beating the other guy to death with a chain.

              Back to Bridget.
              Benjamin Buffinton, a former homicide investigator, talked to both Lizzie
              and Bridget that morning (Aug. 4th). His conclusions were that the first
              murder had been unpremeditated and the second was the removal of someone out
              of the way. That the murder weapon had been a cleaver, not a hatchet.

              Unfortunately for Lizzie, Knowlton paid no attention to him, as he'd already
              made up his mind that Lizzie was guilty, and guilty she would be. No one
              tried to find out if a cleaver was missing from the kitchen and for damn
              sure Bridget never mentioned it. No wonder she was more than willing to
              show the cops where all the axes and hatchets were in the cellar.

              Bridget, at the trial, claimed she led Fleet and other officers to the
              cellar. They searched and found the hatchets. She omitted the fact that
              the first policemen she took down there were Doherty and Mullaly. Mullaly
              testified that Bridget had led him directly to the hatchets.

              Bridget's cause? Her claim that she was always having headaches, eating
              some of that tainted mutton, then being told to wash the windows and Mrs.
              Borden's refusal to postpone that chore.

              Morse claimed she was told to wash the windows while at breakfast and
              Bridget told Mrs. Borden that she would. When Bridget went out to do so,
              she decided she was in no condition to do so and went back in to get Mrs.
              Borden to postpone this chore. Mrs. Borden refused.

              One thing led to another and the end result was Mrs. Borden getting killed.
              Bridget killed Mr. Borden because she knew that when they discovered Mrs.
              Borden's body, Mr. Borden would have told the cops that Bridget had been
              upstairs with Mrs. Borden around 9:00 o'clock, so he had to go.

              Benjamin Buffinton must have been one smart investigator. He viewed the
              scene and spelled it out perfectly. He saw that it was rage (Bridget's hot
              temper) in the death of Mrs. Borden (not premeditated), and that she'd been
              killed first. His saying the second murder was the removal of somebody out
              of the way, was also accurate, as Bridget, knowing Mr. Borden knew she was
              upstairs at the time, knew she was going to have to kill him also.

              What it boiled down to was if she didn't kill Mr. Borden, she would have
              been arrested and found guilty. A simple question of whose life was worth
              more; his or hers. No question as to what the answer to that was in
              Bridget's opinion.

              And JT, Bridget's rage would not have subsided after the first blow, as it
              was the culmination of her frustration for having worked for Mrs. Borden for
              those two years and nine months. Bridget's not returning to Ireland because
              Mrs. Borden would have been lonely without her was just another one of her
              lies.

              This is bolstered by Lizzie having told Mrs. Mary Livermore that hands were
              stretched out against her under her own roof that she had done favors for in
              the past. Lizzie knew Bridget was lying but could not comprehend why Bridget
              was doing this to her at the trial. Lizzie could not make herself believe
              that Bridget would do something so horrible as to shift the blame unto her.
              The answer was so simple. It was Bridget's life or Lizzie's, so Bridget
              threw Lizzie to the dogs, so to speak. As Ted Bundy said: "All life has
              value, even his."
              Muriel


              muriela@...
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <PatriciaLu@...>
              To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 9:16 PM
              Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:


              > Muriel -- I really read your email carefully, and I don't doubt all the
              > events which happened afterward, but I still just don't get what you are
              > saying about the day of the murders about Bridget's motive.
              >
              > Even if she drank, even if she was sick with food poisoning, even if it
              was
              > hot and she didn't want to work, I still don't buy that that's a motive
              for
              > killing two people.
              >
              > Is that what you say Bridget's motive is? That she'd just kill the boss so
              > she didn't have to do the work and could go lie down? I'm not being
              > sarcastic, just trying to figure out what you think her motive was. Leave
              out
              > the later inconsistencies and lies -- I'm not questioning those --just
              look
              > at that morning and please tell me her motive.
              >
              > Pat in NY
              >
              >
              > ---WHODUNIT???---
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Patsy751@aol.com
              Dear Muriel, Okay....for the moment, I will assume that Bridget did the murders. Where was Lizzie when Mrs. Borden was killed? She must have heard the
              Message 6 of 14 , May 12 1:46 PM
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                Dear Muriel,
                Okay....for the moment, I will assume that Bridget did the murders.  Where was Lizzie when Mrs. Borden was killed?   She must have heard the commotion, and if she did, why didn't she scream her head off.  Let's assume that Lizzie knew that Bridget killed Mrs. B. but  was okay with that because she hated her anyway.  Once her father was dead why wouldn't Lizzie implicate Bridget?  Why wasn't Lizzie pointing a finger at Bridget?

                Patsy 
              • PatriciaLu@aol.com
                In a message dated 5/12/2003 4:58:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... This is what I wondered as well. If Lizzie had doubts about Bridget, she d turn on her in a
                Message 7 of 14 , May 12 2:29 PM
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                  In a message dated 5/12/2003 4:58:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@... writes:


                  Once her father was dead why wouldn't Lizzie implicate Bridget?  Why wasn't Lizzie pointing a finger at Bridget?



                  This is what I wondered as well. If Lizzie had doubts about Bridget, she'd turn on her in a New York minute.

                  Pat in NY
                • Muriel Arnold
                  Hi Pat: When Lizzie returned from the barn and found her father, she ran to the backstairs and yelled for Bridget to come down. Sure enough, Bridget showed up
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 12 9:44 PM
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                    Hi Pat:
                     
                    When Lizzie returned from the barn and found her father, she ran to the backstairs and yelled for Bridget to come down.  Sure enough, Bridget showed up at the top of the first flight of stairs, so Lizzie had no reason to even think Bridget might have done the killings.
                     
                    Bridget's versions:
                    1.  Lizzie had to call once or twice before she heard her because her bedroom door was closed.
                    2.  Bridget claimed she came right down.
                    Question:
                    How did Bridget know Lizzie had to call more than once?  Lizzie never said she had.
                    My conclusion was that Bridget never made it up to her room.  She was on the second floor landing and had to wait a few moments before showing up.  #1 &2 were lies.
                    Muriel
                     
                    Muriel Arnold
                     
                    Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                    For more information
                    muriela@...
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 4:29 PM
                    Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

                    In a message dated 5/12/2003 4:58:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@... writes:


                    Once her father was dead why wouldn't Lizzie implicate Bridget?  Why wasn't Lizzie pointing a finger at Bridget?



                    This is what I wondered as well. If Lizzie had doubts about Bridget, she'd turn on her in a New York minute.

                    Pat in NY


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                  • Muriel Arnold
                    Hi Patsy: Lizzie was in the cellar while Mrs. Borden was being killed. Second Street was a busy street and noises were constant with wagons passing over the
                    Message 9 of 14 , May 12 10:02 PM
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                      Hi Patsy:
                      Lizzie was in the cellar while Mrs. Borden was being killed.  Second Street was a busy street and noises were constant with wagons passing over the dirt road.  Even Mrs. Churchill testified to it being noisy.
                      Anyway, when Lizzie came back up, she took some clean clothes with her.  She passed her father in the sitting room.  He was reading the Providence Journal.  If he was not concerned about what happened upstairs, why should Lizzie have been?
                       
                      <Let's assume that Lizzie knew that Bridget killed Mrs. B. but was okay with that because she hated her anyway.>
                      That won't wash.  There is no way Lizzie would have covered for Bridget.  Lizzie was not noted for brillantcy.  You have to remember that Bridget spent very little time at the Borden house after the murders.
                       
                      And, exactly one week after the murders, Lizzie was arrested.  Bridget had already been gone from the Borden house for good two days before.  The following day, August 12, Lizzie left the Fall River Police Station and was sent to Taunton, where she remained for the following nine months.
                       
                      Lizzie had the misfortune for relying on the police to solve the case.  I don't care how many people who claimed she hired the best lawyers money could buy for her defense.  She was poorly defended.
                       
                      If it hadn't been for Judge Justin Dewey, the trial could have ended in a guilty or hung jury.  Dewey should have collected the $25,000 she paid the defense.  Dewey made sure Knowlton would not get away with his insinuations and declarations of having proved her guilt when the defense had proved otherwise.
                      Muriel
                      Muriel Arnold
                       
                      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                      For more information
                      muriela@...
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Monday, May 12, 2003 3:46 PM
                      Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

                      Dear Muriel,
                      Okay....for the moment, I will assume that Bridget did the murders.  Where was Lizzie when Mrs. Borden was killed?   She must have heard the commotion, and if she did, why didn't she scream her head off.  Let's assume that Lizzie knew that Bridget killed Mrs. B. but  was okay with that because she hated her anyway.  Once her father was dead why wouldn't Lizzie implicate Bridget?  Why wasn't Lizzie pointing a finger at Bridget?

                      Patsy 


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                    • Muriel Arnold
                      Hi Pat: I must disagree with you about Bridget and Mrs. Borden liking each other. Why would Lizzie imply to Mrs. Livermore of having done favors for her
                      Message 10 of 14 , May 12 10:29 PM
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                        Hi Pat:
                        I must disagree with you about Bridget and Mrs. Borden liking each other.  Why would Lizzie imply to Mrs. Livermore of having done favors for her [Bridget}?
                        Bridget was one hell of an adroit liar. 
                        What Bridget claimed she did between 10:55 and 11:00 o'clock, where she came out with 12 reasons for that five minute time span, defies comprehension.
                        Hell the reporters accused her of having a faulty memory
                        They also said that she had an angelic face and when she spoke, she spoke as though the was telling the unvarnished truth.
                         
                        Why did she get away with it?  Simple.  She was Knowlton's star witness and she aimed to please.  When reporters located her and informed her of Lizzie's arrest, Bridget replied that it was about time they arrested Lizzie Borden, though she did not believe her to be guilty.  Yeah, right.  Another lie.
                        On August 15th, Dr. Bowen asked reporters why Bridget had not been arrested also.  Why she saying things to protect herself?  That alone told me that Dr. Bowen suspected Bridget.  For damn sure he knew she was lying.
                        Muriel
                        Muriel Arnold
                         
                        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                        For more information
                        muriela@...
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 12:23 PM
                        Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

                        In a message dated 5/11/2003 12:29:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Patsy751@... writes:


                        Maybe (and this is a huge maybe) I could be convinced that she kept quiet about some incrimminating evidence against Lizzie (hence her almost deathbed confession), but that's it.


                        I agree with Patsy on this. I feel as if I have an open-mind about the case, but I have just never come upon anything that really sways me. Ironically, there's part of me that *wants* to be swayed -- it would make the whole case more interesting in a way. I agree with what Patsy said about Bridget's motive. I get the feeling as if Bridget and Mrs. Borden liked each other, worked together... Bridget does not seem like a "disgruntled employee" -- or the 19th century equivalent of the person who comes to the workplace with a gun.

                        Having said that, I do think Bridget may have known something or seen something either that day or later on. Montana is a whole long way from Massachusetts -- even today and her choice of Montana always struck me as "get me as far away from here as possible."

                        Pat in NY


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                      • Muriel Arnold
                        Hi Patsy: I claim Bridget had no motive. Her hot temper was the cause. Had Mrs. Borden agreed to postpone the window washing, she would not have been killed.
                        Message 11 of 14 , May 12 10:39 PM
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                          Hi Patsy:
                          I claim Bridget had no motive.  Her hot temper was the cause.  Had Mrs. Borden agreed to postpone the window washing, she would not have been killed.  Bridget did not care one bit for Mrs. Arnold, thus she covered this by claiming she had wanted to return to Ireland but had stayed because "Mrs. Borden would have been lonely without her."
                           
                          Please don't tell me that if Bridget was unhappy working there, she could easily have quit and found herself another job.  She had it made in the shade and was getting $3 a week for doing little compared to most maids who had kids to look after and who were getting paid $2.50 a week with one day off a week.  She was getting 1 1/2 days off.
                          Muriel
                           
                           
                          Muriel Arnold
                           
                          Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                          For more information
                          muriela@...
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2003 11:27 AM
                          Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Lizzie:

                          Dear Muriel,
                          I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around Brigitte's guilt simply because I cannot accept that she had any credible motive.  It is just too difficult for me to swallow that she was upset about the window washing.  From what I can see, she had relatively little responsibility relative to what other maids had to do at that time.  She didn't have to bother with the upstairs.  Mrs. Broden took care of her own bedroom, and helped her with the downstairs.  As it was Mrs. Borden was dusting and taking care of the guest bedroom on the day she died!  So Brigitte didn't have the feeling that the family was reclining on the sofa scarfing grapes ordering her around  while she slaved away!

                          Maybe (and this is a huge maybe) I could be convinced that she kept quiet about some incrimminating evidence against Lizzie (hence her almost deathbed confession), but that's it.

                          Patsy


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