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RE: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft

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  • RevCOAL
    ... If alcohol were served, that in and of itself could have been the straw that broke the adamant teetotaller Emma s back...not to mention the fact that
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 25, 2003
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      >

      >>I always wondered whether it was one incident -- one straw that broke the

      >>Emma Camel's back --
      or was it a culmination of things. My sense from books
      >>is this
      conspiratorial implication that somehow Emma witnessed some sort of
      >>liplock between Lizzie and Nance. I don't really believe that.
      I think Emma
      >>had just had her fill.
      >
      >I agree –
      no defining incident, just the accumulation of many things.  Curious
      >timing though, the June 1905 departure coming shortly after the
      Maplecroft
      >party for Nance’s theater troupe.
      >
      >If
      alcohol was served, perhaps a few tongues were loosened and long repressed
      >feelings were voiced.
       
      If alcohol were served, that in and of itself could have been the straw that broke the adamant teetotaller Emma's back...not to mention the fact that Lizzie insisted on entertaining as equals people whom Emma would have considered not only social inferiors, but on a par with thieves and prostitutes...
       
      But as was pointed out in previous posts, it would seem that Emma had issues going back at least a few years, and the infamous theater troupe party probably only brought long-standing issues to a head...
       
       
      June
       
       
       

       

       

       

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    • PatriciaLu@aol.com
      I was looking through Lizzie Borden Past & Present since this is such an interesting topic. One thing -- which seems really basic, but if I knew it, I forgot
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 25, 2003
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        I was looking through Lizzie Borden Past & Present since this is such an
        interesting topic. One thing -- which seems really basic, but if I knew it, I
        forgot that I knew it... and that is that Emma and Lizzie bought Maplecroft
        *together*,

        The book shows an agreement which they made when Emma left which said that
        since they bought Maplecroft with both their money as equal owners, Emma gave
        her permission to Lizzie to live there as long as she paid the mortgage, had
        a certain amount of insurance, did upkeep, etc. The agreement goes on to say
        that neither can sell their interest, but that they would leave their shares
        to each other in their wills. Then I looked at Emma's will (love this
        book!!!) and sure enough, she talks about giving her share of Maplecroft to
        Lizzie.

        It adds a sense of urgency, I think, to Emma's leaving. I always think of
        this as Lizzie's house, but it was really both of theirs.

        Pat in NYC
      • PatriciaLu@aol.com
        P.S. The other thing that s odd is that Emma left Lizzie $1000 in her will. Pat
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 25, 2003
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          P.S. The other thing that's odd is that Emma left Lizzie $1000 in her will.

          Pat
        • Muriel Arnold
          Hi Pat: Lizzie Borden: Past and Present is an excellent book. My friend in New Hampshire called the author and ordered his book for me. She told him he
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 25, 2003
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            Hi Pat:
            Lizzie Borden: Past and Present is an excellent book. My friend in New
            Hampshire called the author and ordered his book for me. She told him he
            didn't need to worry about getting paid. He said it would be in the mail to
            me the next day, along with a note.

            Nice guy. He autographed it alright, along with the note. This should make
            JT happy. His note ended with: "And Bridget didn't do it." I'd met him
            one night at the Lizzie Borden house. We talked in the parlor where I
            autographed my book.

            I'm half-way through reading the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook. It will come in
            handy some, seeing how I'd gotten rid of two boxes and one suitcase full of
            Lizzie Borden material. Thus far I came across one thing that had gotten by
            me and it re-enforced one of my reasons why Bridget had to be guilty. I'm
            still waiting for JT's 39 other reasons why Lizzie was guilty. Seing he's
            mad at me, I might never end up getting them.

            The most accurate, in-depth, news coverage of the Borden case was done by
            the New Bedford Daily Mercury. The articles filled a large notebook.
            Muriel Arnold

            Author of Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
            For more information
            muriela@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <PatriciaLu@...>
            To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 5:42 PM
            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft


            > I was looking through Lizzie Borden Past & Present since this is such an
            > interesting topic. One thing -- which seems really basic, but if I knew
            it, I
            > forgot that I knew it... and that is that Emma and Lizzie bought
            Maplecroft
            > *together*,
            >
            > The book shows an agreement which they made when Emma left which said that
            > since they bought Maplecroft with both their money as equal owners, Emma
            gave
            > her permission to Lizzie to live there as long as she paid the mortgage,
            had
            > a certain amount of insurance, did upkeep, etc. The agreement goes on to
            say
            > that neither can sell their interest, but that they would leave their
            shares
            > to each other in their wills. Then I looked at Emma's will (love this
            > book!!!) and sure enough, she talks about giving her share of Maplecroft
            to
            > Lizzie.
            >
            > It adds a sense of urgency, I think, to Emma's leaving. I always think of
            > this as Lizzie's house, but it was really both of theirs.
            >
            > Pat in NYC
            >
            > ---WHODUNIT???---
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
          • Jeffrey Tesch
            Muriel wrote: I m still waiting for JT s 39 other reasons why Lizzie was guilty. Seing he s mad at me, I might never end up getting them. ***Certainly not mad
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 25, 2003
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              Muriel wrote:

              I'm still waiting for JT's 39 other reasons why Lizzie was guilty.
              Seing he's mad at me, I might never end up getting them.

              ***Certainly not mad at you, Muriel. I don't fathom how you can look at
              the case objectively and not be somewhat suspicious of Lizzie.

              I don't consider things like the attempt to buy poison, the Alice
              Russell visit the night before, and the dress burning to be innocent
              coincidence. And though you eschew the consciousness of guilt concept,
              it's a classic interrogation technique: ask the suspect the same
              questions over and over - an innocent person just tells the truth, while
              the guilty person has to remember which lies they told when.

              Lizzie's five different answers to five different people regarding her
              whereabouts during Andrew's murder are incriminating. And her inquest
              testimony is a mass of contradiction that borders on confession.

              Best example I've seen of this is Petrocelli's book on the OJ Simpson
              Civil Trial. He devotes 6 chapters to his intense and revealing
              cross-examination of Simpson. It's a fascinating look at how a sharp
              lawyer can trap a murderer in his lies. I highly recommend that book
              (Triumph of Justice) to anyone interested in the Simpson case, which as
              we know closely parallels the Borden case.

              So Muriel: Is OJ guilty? Or did the maid do this one too...
            • Muriel Arnold
              Hi JT: Can t answer everything you wrote at once. You asked how I could look at the case objectively and not be somewhat suspicious of Lizzie. Objectivity: I
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 26, 2003
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                Hi JT:
                Can't answer everything you wrote at once.
                You asked how I could look at the case objectively and not be somewhat
                suspicious of Lizzie.
                Objectivity:
                I started from scratch. I xeroxed what a dozen newspapers had to say,
                compared them to each other, and to what the Historical Society had on the
                Hearing, checking the accuracy of the reporters.

                Then I got out notebooks and put the names of the major characters.
                I put down what each said to the reporters, what they said at the Hearing,
                and what they said at the trial. That way I was able to see if they'd
                changed their testimonies. I also compared what each one said occurred.
                This allowed me to get the feel of what type of person I was dealing with:
                Take Mrs. Churchill returning to the Borden house after sending Bowles for a
                doctor. She said Bridget came and Dr. Bowen came soon after.
                Dr. Bowen said he entered the Borden house and only Mrs. Churchill and
                Lizzie were there. Bridget returned before he left to telegraph Emma.
                (I'll leave Bridget alone for now.)

                Lizzie attempting to buy poison:
                Lizzie claimed she was never in Smith's drugstore in her life.
                Morse said Mrs. Borden told him Lizzie was sick in her room.
                Bridget claimed Lizzie disappeared after breakfast.
                State Inspector McCaffrey, his wife, and another woman were in town checking
                to see if they could buy poison and get a druggist to sell some to them.
                Bence said he knew Lizzie by sight. She spoke in a low tremulous voice.
                Hart/Kilroy - Lizzie spoke in a normal voice, not tremulous. Identified
                Lizzie as she left the courtroom and was asked if she was the one who had
                been in Smith's drugstore that Wednesday morning.
                Reporters said Lizzie looked like a physical and mental wreck.
                Hilliard said Lizzie looked as if she was ready to collapse.

                Knowlton told reporters that the inquest was held only to learn what each
                witness knew of the affair, thus Jennings was no allowed to be present. Yet
                Lizzie was the only one questioned three days running.
                Reporters called it for what it actualy was; an inquisition pure and simple.

                Come on JT, you can't possibly believe Knowlton did not violate Lizzie's
                rights against self-incrimination.
                Look at what Lizzie said when Knowlton asked her why she hesitated after he
                asked her a question and she replied that she had difficulty answering them
                because she did not know how he meant them.

                Knowlton's repetitious questioning was something he should have done at the
                police station, but he knew he never could have done so without Jennings
                being there.

                Someone should have gone into Knowlton's background years and years ago.
                What made Judge Blaisdell, after the Hearing, retire when he learned some
                lawyer was going to file charges against him? Because he did retire, the
                charges were dropped. How much influence did Knowlton exert upon Blaisdell
                for him to sit as judge at the Hearing? It is definitely known that
                Blaisdell could have easily stepped down and Judge Lovatt would have
                replaced him. Knowlton did not get along with Lovatt. Had that occurred,
                the odds are better than 50-50 that Lovatt would have found insufficient
                evidence to hold Lizzie for the Grand Jury.

                I'll get to Lizzie's trip to Miss Russell's and her different answers she
                gave as her reason for going to barn later.
                Muriel

                Muriel Arnold

                Author of Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                For more information
                muriela@...
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Jeffrey Tesch <jtesch@...>
                To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:25 PM
                Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft


                >
                > Muriel wrote:
                >
                > I'm still waiting for JT's 39 other reasons why Lizzie was guilty.
                > Seing he's mad at me, I might never end up getting them.
                >
                > ***Certainly not mad at you, Muriel. I don't fathom how you can look at
                > the case objectively and not be somewhat suspicious of Lizzie.
                >
                > I don't consider things like the attempt to buy poison, the Alice
                > Russell visit the night before, and the dress burning to be innocent
                > coincidence. And though you eschew the consciousness of guilt concept,
                > it's a classic interrogation technique: ask the suspect the same
                > questions over and over - an innocent person just tells the truth, while
                > the guilty person has to remember which lies they told when.
                >
                > Lizzie's five different answers to five different people regarding her
                > whereabouts during Andrew's murder are incriminating. And her inquest
                > testimony is a mass of contradiction that borders on confession.
                >
                > Best example I've seen of this is Petrocelli's book on the OJ Simpson
                > Civil Trial. He devotes 6 chapters to his intense and revealing
                > cross-examination of Simpson. It's a fascinating look at how a sharp
                > lawyer can trap a murderer in his lies. I highly recommend that book
                > (Triumph of Justice) to anyone interested in the Simpson case, which as
                > we know closely parallels the Borden case.
                >
                > So Muriel: Is OJ guilty? Or did the maid do this one too...
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---WHODUNIT???---
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Jeffrey Tesch
                Muriel wrote Lizzie attempting to buy poison: Lizzie claimed she was never in Smith s drugstore in her life. ***The store was on the next block - I walked it
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 26, 2003
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                  Muriel wrote

                  Lizzie attempting to buy poison:
                  Lizzie claimed she was never in Smith's drugstore in her life.
                  ***The store was on the next block - I walked it in 3-4 minutes.
                  Kilroy and Hart testified at the inquest and preliminary hearing along
                  with Bence that Lizzie tried to purchase poison late Wednesday morning
                  24 hours before the murders. Why do you think Robinson tried so hard to
                  exclude Bence and the others from the trial?

                  Morse said Mrs. Borden told him Lizzie was sick in her room.
                  Bridget claimed Lizzie disappeared after breakfast.

                  ***Lizzie claimed both that she was out Wednesday and that she
                  never left her room (inquest). She couldn't decide which was worse.


                  Look at what Lizzie said when Knowlton asked her why she hesitated after
                  he
                  asked her a question and she replied that she had difficulty answering
                  them
                  because she did not know how he meant them.

                  ***OJ did the exact same thing with Petrocelli in the Civil
                  Trial.

                  I'll get to Lizzie's trip to Miss Russell's and her different answers
                  she
                  gave as her reason for going to barn later.

                  ***Don't bother. You'll write something that makes it all seem
                  normal for Lizzie to do such things. You think it absurd that Bridget
                  would go to her room (somewhere she went everyday for one reason or
                  another) and normal that Lizzie would visit a barn she hadn't been to in
                  3-6 months to look for sinkers for non-existent fishing lines! And just
                  in time for someone to murder her father!

                  You want this group to believe that Bridget hacked Abby with a
                  cleaver 19 times after an argument over chores, came down the front
                  stairs wearing bloody dress and carrying dripping weapon, sashayed past
                  Andrew in the Sitting Room, went out back to vomit, and then shared a
                  jovial back fence chat with the Kelly's maid as if she hadn't a care in
                  the world (except killing Andrew before Lizzie and Morse got back).

                  Words fail me. I would believe Arnold Brown's theory (Billy
                  Borden) before yours...

                  If you want to make a case for Lizzie and Bridget working
                  together, I'm listening. But I'll let others in the group debate your
                  theory from now on. I don't want to come across as mean spirited.

                  This whole Borden murder thing works because Lizzie did it! She
                  took a bold step, got away with it, but paid the emotional price later
                  on. It's a story worthy of Shakespeare with all the best dramatic
                  elements.

                  Your theory, besides being incorrect, makes the case dull and
                  lifeless. Why would we care about it?

                  On a more interesting note - I will post early next week some of the
                  more scintillating Maplecroft rumors and gossip gleaned from research.

                  JT (Muriel Free)


                  ---WHODUNIT???---

                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                • RevCOAL
                  ... Hell, even *I* am somewhat suspicious of Lizzie -- albeit not totally convinced of her guilt, or that she was the sole party involved in the murders....
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 26, 2003
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                    >
                    >Certainly not mad at you, Muriel. I don't fathom how you can look at
                    >the case objectively and not be
                    somewhat suspicious of Lizzie.
                     
                    Hell, even *I* am 'somewhat suspicious' of Lizzie -- albeit not totally convinced of her guilt, or that she was the sole party involved in the murders....  ;-)
                     
                     
                    >I don't consider things like the attempt to
                    buy poison, the Alice
                    >Russell visit the night before, and the dress
                    burning to be innocent
                    >coincidence.
                     
                    First off, the prussic acid story is hazy at best; we have one clerk and no one else swearing that it was Lizzie who tried to buy the acid.  What IS known is that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was conducting a sting operation on the very day in question, sending undercover agents -- including FEMALE agents -- into various drug stores in Fall River in an attempt to buy restricted chemicals/drugs without a prescription.
                     
                    It would be interesting to find out if the drug store where the testifying clerk worked was one of the drug stores suspected of selling restricted products without a prescription, and perhaps the clerk's testimony was an attempt to divert attention away from that fact; that in fact perhaps the store HAD been caught illegally selling such items, and that they were allowed to 'cut a deal' if they provided testimony for the state against Lizzie.
                    Regardless, what IS known (but usually ignored), is the FACT that one of the first policeman on the scene at the Borden house immediately after the murders testified to having seen a book on common household hints in the kitchen, opened to a page describing how to clean furs using prussic acid.  Much has been made of the fact that cleaning a fur cape utilizing prussic acid was NOT a method usually recommended, but the FACT remains that the Bordens indeed possessed a book that described just such a method.
                     
                    The other FACT is that as we all know, Abby and Andrew were NOT killed via poison; I suppose that an argument could be made that since Lizzie seemingly failed in her attempt to buy prussic acid, that she had to then resort to another method.  I would argue that if Lizzie was intent on poisoning her father and stepmother, that arsenic was a much more readily available poison to utilize, which unlike prussic acid did NOT require a prescription to obtain...indeed it was a common ingredient not only in rat poisons, but in many medicines and cosmetics of the day...
                     
                    Secondly, the strange visit to Alice Russell the night before the murders only tells us that Lizzie felt her family was in danger and that she suspected something was about to happen, it doesn't PROVE that she was the soon-to-be instigator of that 'something'...
                     
                    As for the infamous dress-burning incident, the FACT is that Lizzie burnt it at EMMA's instigation, an act Emma must have realized would make her sister look guilty, and one has to wonder if that isn't exactly what Emma had in mind.  Another FACT is that the police had thoroughly searched the Borden house the day before, to the point of actually ripping panels off of the wall, and no stained dress was found, at least no dress that the police thought looked stained with blood.  That suggests that either the police somehow entirely overlooked the dress that Lizzie burnt the next day, or that they indeed found it and felt the stain did NOT look like blood.
                     
                     
                    >And though you eschew the
                    consciousness of guilt concept,
                    >it's a classic interrogation
                    technique: ask the suspect the same
                    >questions over and over - an
                    innocent person just tells the truth, while
                    >the guilty person has
                    to remember which lies they told when.
                     
                    Just the other night I caught a show on CourtTV about a case where a woman confessed to the murder of her boyfriend, when she in fact did not.  The boyfriend had died by accidentally falling off of a cliff (or perhaps had committed suicide), but the woman confessed not once but 3 times, on 3 different occasions, giving specific details regarding how she had 'killed' her boyfriend.  The police not only believed her but arrested her and brought her to trial.  As it turned out the death WAS an accident, her 'confession' was not only so detailed but so consistent because what she described was really an incident that had occured earlier in the day, all she had to do was repeat the details of what happened, but placing the occurance in a different location to fit the PD's contention that she had murdered the deceased man...
                     
                    The points to consider here were that it was shown that a person could give consistent testimony by recounting a separate incident as if it were the incident in question; it also showed that the PD could be successful in coercing 'guilty' testimony from an innocent person, and that indeed certain people are of such a temperment that they will continue to implicate themselves because that is what they feel the authority figures want to hear...
                     
                     
                    >Lizzie's five different answers to five
                    different people regarding her
                    >whereabouts during Andrew's murder
                    are incriminating. And her inquest
                    >testimony is a mass of
                    contradiction that borders on confession.
                     
                    As mentioned above, an innocent person can give consistent testimony if they recount a separate incident as the incident in question; inconsistent testimony is no guarantee of guilt, either.  In fact one can argue that if the crime was aa premeditated as the "Lizzie did it" proponents suggest (especially considering her supposed attempt at buying prussic acid), then one would suspect that she would have had an airtight, consistent alibi ready at hand for the time both murders were committed...the fact that she didn't have an airtight alibi for either murder perhaps argues more for her possible innocence than her possible guilt...
                     
                     
                    >So Muriel: Is OJ guilty? Or did the
                    maid do this one too...
                     
                    You're being facetious, Jeff, but in fact I believe there may be more parallels than you suggest...
                     
                    No, the maid didn't do it, but I've always suspected that other parties than just OJ were involved in the murders of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman, and that perhaps OJ didn't actually wield the weapon himself, but that he was instrumental in seeing that 'the deed was done'.  In other words, while he may not have been guilty of committing the murders himself, he WAS guilty of having them committed and in covering up afterwards.  The same circumstances may have been at work in the Borden murders -- Lizzie may not have swung the ax herself, but she knew who did, and perhaps was aware that the killings were to take place before they occured, and she definitely helped cover up the facts afterwards.  IOW, while perhaps neither OJ nor Lizzie were guilty of being the actual perp, each one WAS guilty of being an accessory, either before and/or after the fact...
                     
                     
                    June
                     
                     
                     
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                  • Muriel Arnold
                    Hi gang: Looks like I woke someone up. Seems strange in a way about Lizzie trying to buy poison. The Bordens got sick Tuesday night. Dr. Bowen put it down as
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 26, 2003
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                      Hi gang:
                      Looks like I woke someone up.
                      Seems strange in a way about Lizzie trying to buy poison.  The Bordens got sick Tuesday night.  Dr. Bowen put it down as summer sickness (eating tainted meat).  For those who want Lizzie guilty, I guess they'll say that seeing how she tried maybe rat poison and failed, she went to Smith's drugstore, where she was not known, and tried to get prussic acid.
                       
                      I disagree with one of the first policemen there finding a book in the kitchen opened to the page describing how to clean furs using prussic acid.  Had that been true, Knowlton for damn sure would have brought that out at the Hearing, especially when Blaisdell decided to allow the poison episode into the records.
                       
                      The dress burning incident:
                      Never thought about Emma telling Lizzie to burn the dress was exactly what Emma had in mind.  SNEAKY!!!, but it sure beats the guy who had Emma taking three hours to get home in a closed carriage, wearing a raincoat with an axe underneath, then beating the telegram sent at 11:32 back to Fairhaven.  Only, I can't picture Emma having that much intelligence.
                       
                      Is OJ guilty?  Or did the maid do this one too..
                      JT, OJ was guilty as hell.  Thanks to Furman, it turned the case into racism.  I question the intelligence of the jurors, or was it fear of what would halppen to them should they have found OJ guilty.
                       
                      I sure wish people would quit comparing the OJ case to Lizzie's.  There is no comparison.  It lacks finess and there is no mystery
                      The only things they have in common is that Nicole and Mrs. Borden were the intended victims, and Ron and Mr. Borden were at the wrong place when the other two were killed.
                      Muriel
                      Muriel Arnold
                       
                      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                      For more information
                      muriela@...
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: RevCOAL
                      Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:46 PM
                      Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft

                      >Certainly not mad at you, Muriel. I don't fathom how you can look at
                      >the case objectively and not be somewhat suspicious of Lizzie.
                       
                      Hell, even *I* am 'somewhat suspicious' of Lizzie -- albeit not totally convinced of her guilt, or that she was the sole party involved in the murders....  ;-)
                       
                       
                      >I don't consider things like the attempt to buy poison, the Alice
                      >Russell visit the night before, and the dress burning to be innocent
                      >coincidence.
                       
                      First off, the prussic acid story is hazy at best; we have one clerk and no one else swearing that it was Lizzie who tried to buy the acid.  What IS known is that the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was conducting a sting operation on the very day in question, sending undercover agents -- including FEMALE agents -- into various drug stores in Fall River in an attempt to buy restricted chemicals/drugs without a prescription.
                       
                      It would be interesting to find out if the drug store where the testifying clerk worked was one of the drug stores suspected of selling restricted products without a prescription, and perhaps the clerk's testimony was an attempt to divert attention away from that fact; that in fact perhaps the store HAD been caught illegally selling such items, and that they were allowed to 'cut a deal' if they provided testimony for the state against Lizzie.
                      Regardless, what IS known (but usually ignored), is the FACT that one of the first policeman on the scene at the Borden house immediately after the murders testified to having seen a book on common household hints in the kitchen, opened to a page describing how to clean furs using prussic acid.  Much has been made of the fact that cleaning a fur cape utilizing prussic acid was NOT a method usually recommended, but the FACT remains that the Bordens indeed possessed a book that described just such a method.
                       
                      The other FACT is that as we all know, Abby and Andrew were NOT killed via poison; I suppose that an argument could be made that since Lizzie seemingly failed in her attempt to buy prussic acid, that she had to then resort to another method.  I would argue that if Lizzie was intent on poisoning her father and stepmother, that arsenic was a much more readily available poison to utilize, which unlike prussic acid did NOT require a prescription to obtain...indeed it was a common ingredient not only in rat poisons, but in many medicines and cosmetics of the day...
                       
                      Secondly, the strange visit to Alice Russell the night before the murders only tells us that Lizzie felt her family was in danger and that she suspected something was about to happen, it doesn't PROVE that she was the soon-to-be instigator of that 'something'...
                       
                      As for the infamous dress-burning incident, the FACT is that Lizzie burnt it at EMMA's instigation, an act Emma must have realized would make her sister look guilty, and one has to wonder if that isn't exactly what Emma had in mind.  Another FACT is that the police had thoroughly searched the Borden house the day before, to the point of actually ripping panels off of the wall, and no stained dress was found, at least no dress that the police thought looked stained with blood.  That suggests that either the police somehow entirely overlooked the dress that Lizzie burnt the next day, or that they indeed found it and felt the stain did NOT look like blood.
                       
                       
                      >And though you eschew the consciousness of guilt concept,
                      >it's a classic interrogation technique: ask the suspect the same
                      >questions over and over - an innocent person just tells the truth, while
                      >the guilty person has to remember which lies they told when.
                       
                      Just the other night I caught a show on CourtTV about a case where a woman confessed to the murder of her boyfriend, when she in fact did not.  The boyfriend had died by accidentally falling off of a cliff (or perhaps had committed suicide), but the woman confessed not once but 3 times, on 3 different occasions, giving specific details regarding how she had 'killed' her boyfriend.  The police not only believed her but arrested her and brought her to trial.  As it turned out the death WAS an accident, her 'confession' was not only so detailed but so consistent because what she described was really an incident that had occured earlier in the day, all she had to do was repeat the details of what happened, but placing the occurance in a different location to fit the PD's contention that she had murdered the deceased man...
                       
                      The points to consider here were that it was shown that a person could give consistent testimony by recounting a separate incident as if it were the incident in question; it also showed that the PD could be successful in coercing 'guilty' testimony from an innocent person, and that indeed certain people are of such a temperment that they will continue to implicate themselves because that is what they feel the authority figures want to hear...
                       
                       
                      >Lizzie's five different answers to five different people regarding her
                      >whereabouts during Andrew's murder are incriminating. And her inquest
                      >testimony is a mass of contradiction that borders on confession.
                       
                      As mentioned above, an innocent person can give consistent testimony if they recount a separate incident as the incident in question; inconsistent testimony is no guarantee of guilt, either.  In fact one can argue that if the crime was aa premeditated as the "Lizzie did it" proponents suggest (especially considering her supposed attempt at buying prussic acid), then one would suspect that she would have had an airtight, consistent alibi ready at hand for the time both murders were committed...the fact that she didn't have an airtight alibi for either murder perhaps argues more for her possible innocence than her possible guilt...
                       
                       
                      >So Muriel: Is OJ guilty? Or did the maid do this one too...
                       
                      You're being facetious, Jeff, but in fact I believe there may be more parallels than you suggest...
                       
                      No, the maid didn't do it, but I've always suspected that other parties than just OJ were involved in the murders of Nicole Simpson and Ron Goldman, and that perhaps OJ didn't actually wield the weapon himself, but that he was instrumental in seeing that 'the deed was done'.  In other words, while he may not have been guilty of committing the murders himself, he WAS guilty of having them committed and in covering up afterwards.  The same circumstances may have been at work in the Borden murders -- Lizzie may not have swung the ax herself, but she knew who did, and perhaps was aware that the killings were to take place before they occured, and she definitely helped cover up the facts afterwards.  IOW, while perhaps neither OJ nor Lizzie were guilty of being the actual perp, each one WAS guilty of being an accessory, either before and/or after the fact...
                       
                       
                      June
                       
                       
                       
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                    • Muriel Arnold
                      JT: Sorry, but Smith s drugstore was not in the next block. Brow s drugstore was 1/2 block north of the Borden house, and the other Brow drugstore was some 2
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 26, 2003
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                        JT:
                        Sorry, but Smith's drugstore was not in the next block. Brow's drugstore
                        was 1/2 block north of the Borden house, and the other Brow drugstore was
                        some 2 1/2 blocks to the south. Smith's drugstore was at the corner of
                        South Main and Columbia streets. I agree that it would take a good three
                        minutes, walking fast, to get there.

                        Lizzie claimed she was out Wednesday and also that she never left her room.
                        She couldn't decide which was worse:
                        She did both. She was home during the day and went out to Miss Russell's
                        house that evening.

                        Not knowing how Knowlton meant the question and thus she hesitated, makes
                        sense. If she didn't dot her i's and cross her t's, Knowlton pounced on her
                        in an instant.

                        Lizzie's trip to the barn for sinkers for non-existing fishing lines:
                        Okay. Lizzie told Miss Russell Wednesday night that she decided she would
                        go to Marion on Monday.
                        She went to the barn looking for lead to make into sinkers. If she had
                        found some, she would have only bought lines for the planned fishing
                        excursion at Marion.

                        You want this group to believe that Bridget, after killing Mrs. Borden,
                        sashayed past Andrew in the Sitting room, went out back to vomit, then had a
                        jovial back fence chat with the Kelly's maid:
                        WRONG!
                        Even if Bridget had left the house while Mr. Borden was still there, she did
                        not have to enter the sitting room in so doing. As Bridget had testified;
                        the door leading from the sitting room into the hallway was closed that
                        morning. She came downstairs and went out the front door.
                        Bridget did not leave the house till around 9:25, when she heard Lizzie get
                        her iron. Bridget threw up right after Lizzie came downstairs, so she
                        claimed.

                        One last remark. Remember "Deep Throat" during the Watergate investigation,
                        who said: "Follow the money"? Well I say the same thing, only it is now
                        "Follow Bridget" and she will tell you exactly what happened.
                        Muriel


                        Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                        For more information
                        muriela@...
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Jeffrey Tesch <jtesch@...>
                        To: <40Whacks@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:43 PM
                        Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft


                        >
                        > Muriel wrote
                        >
                        > Lizzie attempting to buy poison:
                        > Lizzie claimed she was never in Smith's drugstore in her life.
                        > ***The store was on the next block - I walked it in 3-4 minutes.
                        > Kilroy and Hart testified at the inquest and preliminary hearing along
                        > with Bence that Lizzie tried to purchase poison late Wednesday morning
                        > 24 hours before the murders. Why do you think Robinson tried so hard to
                        > exclude Bence and the others from the trial?
                        >
                        > Morse said Mrs. Borden told him Lizzie was sick in her room.
                        > Bridget claimed Lizzie disappeared after breakfast.
                        >
                        > ***Lizzie claimed both that she was out Wednesday and that she
                        > never left her room (inquest). She couldn't decide which was worse.
                        >
                        >
                        > Look at what Lizzie said when Knowlton asked her why she hesitated after
                        > he
                        > asked her a question and she replied that she had difficulty answering
                        > them
                        > because she did not know how he meant them.
                        >
                        > ***OJ did the exact same thing with Petrocelli in the Civil
                        > Trial.
                        >
                        > I'll get to Lizzie's trip to Miss Russell's and her different answers
                        > she
                        > gave as her reason for going to barn later.
                        >
                        > ***Don't bother. You'll write something that makes it all seem
                        > normal for Lizzie to do such things. You think it absurd that Bridget
                        > would go to her room (somewhere she went everyday for one reason or
                        > another) and normal that Lizzie would visit a barn she hadn't been to in
                        > 3-6 months to look for sinkers for non-existent fishing lines! And just
                        > in time for someone to murder her father!
                        >
                        > You want this group to believe that Bridget hacked Abby with a
                        > cleaver 19 times after an argument over chores, came down the front
                        > stairs wearing bloody dress and carrying dripping weapon, sashayed past
                        > Andrew in the Sitting Room, went out back to vomit, and then shared a
                        > jovial back fence chat with the Kelly's maid as if she hadn't a care in
                        > the world (except killing Andrew before Lizzie and Morse got back).
                        >
                        > Words fail me. I would believe Arnold Brown's theory (Billy
                        > Borden) before yours...
                        >
                        > If you want to make a case for Lizzie and Bridget working
                        > together, I'm listening. But I'll let others in the group debate your
                        > theory from now on. I don't want to come across as mean spirited.
                        >
                        > This whole Borden murder thing works because Lizzie did it! She
                        > took a bold step, got away with it, but paid the emotional price later
                        > on. It's a story worthy of Shakespeare with all the best dramatic
                        > elements.
                        >
                        > Your theory, besides being incorrect, makes the case dull and
                        > lifeless. Why would we care about it?
                        >
                        > On a more interesting note - I will post early next week some of the
                        > more scintillating Maplecroft rumors and gossip gleaned from research.
                        >
                        > JT (Muriel Free)
                        >
                        >
                        > ---WHODUNIT???---
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---WHODUNIT???---
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                      • RevCOAL
                        ... I always have my prescriptions filled at Walgreens, even tho there is a Rite-Aid closer to my home; part of the reason is due to the fact that I had
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 27, 2003
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                          >
                          >Sorry, but Smith's drugstore was not in the next block. Brow's drugstore
                          >was 1/2 block north of the
                          Borden house, and the other Brow drugstore was
                          >some 2 1/2 blocks to
                          the south. Smith's drugstore was at the corner of
                          >South Main and
                          Columbia streets. I agree that it would take a good three
                          >minutes,
                          walking fast, to get there.
                           
                          I always have my prescriptions filled at Walgreens, even tho there is a Rite-Aid closer to my home; part of the reason is due to the fact that I had previously used Walgreens before moving to my present apartment, the second was that even tho Rite-Aid is closer, it is in the opposite direction than the one I usually have taken for work or other activities.
                           
                          In other words, even if Smith's drugstore WAS in the next block from the Borden house that doesn't mean that the Borden's did business there; they may have historically utilized another drugstore in the neighborhood and just continued utilizing it out of habit and customer loyalty, or perhaps it was more convenient than Smith's because the other drugstore was better situated on the normal route the Bordens utilized for their various activities...
                           
                          I'd like to know if anyone has checked out the trolly routes of 1892, specifically as regards travelling from the Borden house to the various pharmacies in the neighborhood -- it could be something as simple as another drugstore being located right off of the trolly line while perhaps Smith's required getting off of the trolly and walking another block or so...
                           
                          If I had to take a bus to go to a drugstore, I would tend to give my business to the drugstore that was right at where the bus stopped rather than one that I would have to get off the bus and then walk a couple of blocks to; it might not seem a big deal when traveling in good weather, but it IS a major consideration when travelling in a Nor'easter or in bitterly cold weather (such as we have been experiencing the past few weeks here in southern New England -- windchills predicted at minus 15 by this evening)...
                           
                           
                          >Lizzie's trip to the barn for
                          sinkers for non-existing fishing lines:
                          >Okay. Lizzie told Miss
                          Russell Wednesday night that she decided she would
                          >go to Marion on
                          Monday.
                           
                          We still haven't got an answer as to why Lizzie gave up the annual Fairhaven excursion with Emma to come back home to perhaps go fishing in Marion...
                           
                           
                          >>You want this group
                          to believe that Bridget, after killing Mrs. Borden,
                          >>sashayed
                          past Andrew in the Sitting room, went out back to vomit, then had a
                          >>jovial back fence chat with the Kelly's
                          maid:
                          >WRONG!
                          >Even if Bridget had left the house while Mr.
                          Borden was still there,
                           
                          She did, to go vomit out by the barn...she did that at around 8:45, Andrew didn't leave the house until a little after 9...
                           
                          >she did not have to enter the sitting room in so doing.
                          She would have had to if, as you contend, she killed Abby upstairs -- she'd have had to get past Andrew in the sitting room to then get outside to vomit, unless she went out the front door...
                           
                           
                          >As Bridget had
                          testified;
                          >the door leading from the sitting room into the hallway
                          was closed that
                          >morning. She came downstairs and went out the front
                          door.
                           
                          When did she ever say she went out the front door?  I don't remember ever reading such testimony, and indeed the only testimony regarding the front door was that it was LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE, as was the family's custom every night, altho the inner lock was usually left unlocked during the day.  Remember that when Andrew came back to the house later that morning that he couldn't get in the front door because it was STILL LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE -- which could not have been the case if Bridget went out the front door earlier that morning...
                           
                           
                          June
                           
                           
                           
                          .
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                        • Muriel Arnold
                          Hi June: Guess I didn t make it clear. I say Bridget killed Mrs. Borden while Lizzie was in the cellar and Mr. Borden was still in the sitting room. Bridget
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 27, 2003
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                            Hi June:
                            Guess I didn't make it clear.  I say Bridget killed Mrs. Borden while Lizzie was in the cellar and Mr. Borden was still in the sitting room.  Bridget could not leave the house, around 9:25-9:30, until she heard Lizzie messing around with her irons, which were now hot enough for ironing.  Bridget came downstairs and went out the front door, went to the barn and began washing out blood spots as she spotted them.
                             
                            I also say Bridget did not go outside to throw up right after Lizzie first came downstairs.  Remember Lizzie said Bridget was in the kitchen filling a pail of water and Bridget went out to do so.  It was at this time that Bridget supposedly went outside to throw up.
                             
                            Bridget never did say what time it was when she had her chit-chat over the fence with Mary Doolan, the Kelly maid, but did say someone could have entered the house while she did so, as she heard the front door open and close but had ignored it.  The same was true as to the thump she'd heard earlier while washing the windows (when Mrs. Borden's body hit the floor).
                             
                            I'm half-way through the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.  There  was one thing that had slipped by me.  Called my sister in Florida and she remembered reading that.  It makes number 51 reasons why she was guilty; the three minutes she was upstairs before the City Hall clock struck 11:00 and the three minutes afterwards.  Watch  time TIME.
                            Muriel
                            Muriel Arnold
                             
                            Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                            For more information
                            muriela@...
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: RevCOAL
                            Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 10:28 AM
                            Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft

                            >Sorry, but Smith's drugstore was not in the next block. Brow's drugstore
                            >was 1/2 block north of the Borden house, and the other Brow drugstore was
                            >some 2 1/2 blocks to the south. Smith's drugstore was at the corner of
                            >South Main and Columbia streets. I agree that it would take a good three
                            >minutes, walking fast, to get there.
                             
                            I always have my prescriptions filled at Walgreens, even tho there is a Rite-Aid closer to my home; part of the reason is due to the fact that I had previously used Walgreens before moving to my present apartment, the second was that even tho Rite-Aid is closer, it is in the opposite direction than the one I usually have taken for work or other activities.
                             
                            In other words, even if Smith's drugstore WAS in the next block from the Borden house that doesn't mean that the Borden's did business there; they may have historically utilized another drugstore in the neighborhood and just continued utilizing it out of habit and customer loyalty, or perhaps it was more convenient than Smith's because the other drugstore was better situated on the normal route the Bordens utilized for their various activities...
                             
                            I'd like to know if anyone has checked out the trolly routes of 1892, specifically as regards travelling from the Borden house to the various pharmacies in the neighborhood -- it could be something as simple as another drugstore being located right off of the trolly line while perhaps Smith's required getting off of the trolly and walking another block or so...
                             
                            If I had to take a bus to go to a drugstore, I would tend to give my business to the drugstore that was right at where the bus stopped rather than one that I would have to get off the bus and then walk a couple of blocks to; it might not seem a big deal when traveling in good weather, but it IS a major consideration when travelling in a Nor'easter or in bitterly cold weather (such as we have been experiencing the past few weeks here in southern New England -- windchills predicted at minus 15 by this evening)...
                             
                             
                            >Lizzie's trip to the barn for sinkers for non-existing fishing lines:
                            >Okay. Lizzie told Miss Russell Wednesday night that she decided she would
                            >go to Marion on Monday.
                             
                            We still haven't got an answer as to why Lizzie gave up the annual Fairhaven excursion with Emma to come back home to perhaps go fishing in Marion...
                             
                             
                            >>You want this group to believe that Bridget, after killing Mrs. Borden,
                            >>sashayed past Andrew in the Sitting room, went out back to vomit, then had a
                            >>jovial back fence chat with the Kelly's maid:
                            >WRONG!
                            >Even if Bridget had left the house while Mr. Borden was still there,
                             
                            She did, to go vomit out by the barn...she did that at around 8:45, Andrew didn't leave the house until a little after 9...
                             
                            >she did not have to enter the sitting room in so doing.
                            She would have had to if, as you contend, she killed Abby upstairs -- she'd have had to get past Andrew in the sitting room to then get outside to vomit, unless she went out the front door...
                             
                             
                            >As Bridget had testified;
                            >the door leading from the sitting room into the hallway was closed that
                            >morning. She came downstairs and went out the front door.
                             
                            When did she ever say she went out the front door?  I don't remember ever reading such testimony, and indeed the only testimony regarding the front door was that it was LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE, as was the family's custom every night, altho the inner lock was usually left unlocked during the day.  Remember that when Andrew came back to the house later that morning that he couldn't get in the front door because it was STILL LOCKED FROM THE INSIDE -- which could not have been the case if Bridget went out the front door earlier that morning...
                             
                             
                            June
                             
                             
                             
                            .
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                          • RevCOAL
                            ... Bridget would have had to still get by Andrew to initially go upstairs -- one has to ask then why Andrew wouldn t have thought it odd that Bridget was
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 27, 2003
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                              >>Guess I didn't make it clear.  I say Bridget killed Mrs. Borden while Lizzie was in the cellar
                              >and Mr. Borden was still in the sitting
                              room.  Bridget could not leave the house, around
                              >9:25-9:30,
                              until she heard Lizzie messing around with her irons, which were now hot
                              >enough for ironing.  Bridget came downstairs and went out the
                              front door, went to the barn
                              >and began washing out blood spots as
                              she spotted them.
                               
                              Bridget would have had to still get by Andrew to initially go upstairs -- one has to ask then why Andrew wouldn't have thought it odd that Bridget was suddenly abandoning her duties to go to the front upstairs rooms, and one would also have to ask why he seemingly didn't hear anything unusual going on upstairs while Bridget was supposedly hacking away at Abby...
                               
                               
                              >Bridget
                              never did say what time it was when she had her chit-chat over the fence with
                              >Mary Doolan, the Kelly maid, but did say someone could have
                              entered the house while
                              >she did so, as she heard the front door
                              open and close but had ignored it. 
                               
                              I thought that Mary herself set the time for the morning gossip fest at around 9:30 to 9:45....I remember reading that she said that she saw Bridget beginning to wash the outside windows, and it was after washing a couple and then getting a bucket of clean water to splash on the just-cleaned windows to rinse them that Bridget decided to take a break and chat up Mary...
                               
                               
                              >The same was true as to the thump
                              she'd heard earlier while washing the windows (when
                              >Mrs. Borden's
                              body hit the floor).
                               
                              I don't remember Bridget ever having said that she heard a thump; she was outside washing windows, meaning the windows were CLOSED (except perhaps the upstairs windows), on a busy street with trollies and horse-drawn carriages clattering by...
                               
                               
                              June
                               
                               
                               
                               
                               
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                            • Muriel Arnold
                              Hi June: One last try. Lizzie came downstairs around 8:45, just after Morse left. Her father was reading the Providence Journal in the sitting room. Her
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jan 28, 2003
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                                Hi June:
                                One last try. 
                                Lizzie came downstairs around 8:45, just after Morse left.  Her father was reading the Providence Journal in the sitting room.  Her mother was dusting in the dining room.  Mrs. Borden told Lizzie all she had left to do was to put shams on the small pillows upstairs and she was through.  Lizzie enters the kitchen.  Bridget is filling a pail of water to wash the windows and leaves.
                                 
                                Lizzies goes into the cellar.  Instead of washing windows, Bridget re-entered the house and argued with Mrs. Borden to have the window washing postponed.  Mrs. Borden refused.  Andrew is still in the sitting room.  At the  trial, Bridget said Mrs. Borden told her to wash the windows.  She went into the kitchen.
                                Conclusion:  Bridget followed her there, argued some more, and Mrs. Borden went upstairs.  Bridget picked up the meat cleaver and followed her.
                                 
                                One more refusal and Bridget killed her.  Andrew heard Abby's body hit the floor and no doubt asked what was going on.  No doubt Bridget went out into the hall and told him something like they were moving furniture and he returned to the sitting room.
                                 
                                Lizzie left the cellar, passed her father sitting in the sitting room and went up to her room.  The guest bedroom door was closed.  Had Lizzie entered that room, she also would have been killed.  Andrew was killed because he would have known that Bridget was upstairs at the very time Abby was killed.  He had to go for sure now.
                                 
                                It is a fact that Mr. Borden was seen by Mrs. Churchill leaving his house around 9:00, taking Lizzie's letter to Emma to the post office.  Bridget now had to wait till she heard Lizzie begin to iron, then sneaked out the house by the front door and go to the barn.
                                 
                                Hearing a thump:
                                Actually, Bridget said she heard a thud (the thud the police claimed Mrs. Borden's body made when it hit the floor) but had attached no importance to it.
                                Bridget also stated that someone could have entered the house while she had her chit-chat with Mary Doolan, as she heard the front door open and close. 
                                Why didn't the cops ask Mary Doolan who it was who entered the Borden house?  She would have seen who that was.
                                 
                                Bridget had been told to wash all the windows.  There are 13 windows, not counting the two on each side of the front door.
                                Lizzie said Bridget did not wash the kitchen ones, as she was there nearly all the morning.
                                Bridget said she had eleven windows to wash.  She did not wash the kitchen windows.
                                Got to go finish the Lizzie Borden Sourcebook.  I wish now I had not gotten rid of the newspaper clippings because I could have told you which newspapers mentioned Bridget hearing a thud. 
                                 
                                Bridget heard a thud when she was on the opposite side of the house with the windows closed?  Right.
                                 
                                As I said before, follow Bridget.  She'll tell you exactly what happened and when.
                                Muriel
                                 
                                Muriel Arnold
                                 
                                Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                                For more information
                                muriela@...
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: RevCOAL
                                Sent: Monday, January 27, 2003 11:50 PM
                                Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves Maplecroft

                                >Guess I didn't make it clear.  I say Bridget killed Mrs. Borden while Lizzie was in the cellar
                                >and Mr. Borden was still in the sitting room.  Bridget could not leave the house, around
                                >9:25-9:30, until she heard Lizzie messing around with her irons, which were now hot
                                >enough for ironing.  Bridget came downstairs and went out the front door, went to the barn
                                >and began washing out blood spots as she spotted them.
                                 
                                Bridget would have had to still get by Andrew to initially go upstairs -- one has to ask then why Andrew wouldn't have thought it odd that Bridget was suddenly abandoning her duties to go to the front upstairs rooms, and one would also have to ask why he seemingly didn't hear anything unusual going on upstairs while Bridget was supposedly hacking away at Abby...
                                 
                                 
                                >Bridget never did say what time it was when she had her chit-chat over the fence with
                                >Mary Doolan, the Kelly maid, but did say someone could have entered the house while
                                >she did so, as she heard the front door open and close but had ignored it. 
                                 
                                I thought that Mary herself set the time for the morning gossip fest at around 9:30 to 9:45....I remember reading that she said that she saw Bridget beginning to wash the outside windows, and it was after washing a couple and then getting a bucket of clean water to splash on the just-cleaned windows to rinse them that Bridget decided to take a break and chat up Mary...
                                 
                                 
                                >The same was true as to the thump she'd heard earlier while washing the windows (when
                                >Mrs. Borden's body hit the floor).
                                 
                                I don't remember Bridget ever having said that she heard a thump; she was outside washing windows, meaning the windows were CLOSED (except perhaps the upstairs windows), on a busy street with trollies and horse-drawn carriages clattering by...
                                 
                                 
                                June
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
                                 
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                              • RevCOAL
                                ... And where does Bridget GO at that time, according to your THEORY? ... There is absolutely NO evidence that Bridget ever argued with Abby over washing the
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jan 28, 2003
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                                  >
                                  >Lizzie came downstairs around 8:45, just after Morse left.  Her father was reading the Providence
                                  >Journal in the sitting room.  Her mother was dusting in the
                                  dining room.  Mrs. Borden told Lizzie
                                  >all she had left to do
                                  was to put shams on the small pillows upstairs and she was through.  Lizzie
                                  >enters the kitchen.  Bridget is filling a pail of
                                  water to wash the windows and leaves.
                                   
                                  And where does Bridget GO at that time, according to your THEORY?
                                   
                                   
                                  >Lizzies goes into the cellar. 
                                  Instead of washing windows, Bridget re-entered the house and argued
                                  >with Mrs. Borden to have the window washing postponed.  Mrs.
                                  Borden refused. 
                                   
                                  There is absolutely NO evidence that Bridget ever argued with Abby over washing the windows...
                                   
                                   
                                  >Andrew is still in the sitting
                                  room.  At the  trial, Bridget said Mrs. Borden told her to wash the
                                  >windows.  She went into the
                                  kitchen.
                                  >Conclusion:  Bridget followed her there, argued some
                                  more, and Mrs. Borden went upstairs. 
                                  >Bridget picked up the
                                  meat cleaver and followed her.
                                   
                                  And Andrew never heard the maid arguing with her mistress and intervened?  Was he so absorbed by The Providence Journal that he didn't notice Bridget storming past him with a meat cleaver in her hand to go up the front stairs, where she had absolutely NO business being at that time?
                                   
                                   
                                  >One
                                  more refusal and Bridget killed her.  Andrew heard Abby's body hit the floor
                                   
                                  You're asking us to believe that Bridget confronted Abby over washing the windows while wielding a meat cleaver, and all Abby did was reiterate that the windows had to be washed?  One would expect Abby to have screamed, yelled, done SOMETHING...
                                   
                                  Your THEORY ignores the fact that the physical evidence of the crime scene showed that whomever hacked Abby to death did so by sneaking up behind her while Abby was on her knees making the bed -- hardly a position the mistress of the house would have been in had her maid come storming in continuing a supposed argument over an assigned duty...especially if the maid was wielding a meat cleaver at the same time...
                                   
                                   
                                  >and no doubt asked what was going
                                  on.  No doubt Bridget went out into the hall and told
                                  >him
                                  something like they were moving furniture and he returned to the sitting room.
                                   
                                  And Andrew wouldn't have asked WHY they were supposedly moving furniture?  He wouldn't have asked why Bridget was in a front upstairs room when his wife had specifically instructed her to wash the windows at that time, especially after having heard the supposed argument Abby and Bridget had just had over the issue a few minutes before?  He wouldn't have called out 'good-bye' to Abby when he left and wondered why she didn't answer?
                                   
                                  First off, there's no evidence that ANYONE ever heard Abby fall; much has been made of Abby's weight and how much noise someone of her size would supposedly make when falling...what is ignored is the fact that someone of that size already has a fair amount of natural padding, add to that the 'unnatural' padding of the typical Victorian woman's outfit, and even if she fell from a standing position (which she probably wouldn't, in all probability her knees would have given out and she would have slumped to the floor), she probably wouldn't have made as much noise as people presume.  Add to that the FACT that the position of her body when discovered suggests that she was on her knees wedged between the bed and the chest of drawers, probably in the act of making the bed.  In that position she wouldn't have had far to slump to the floor after the first blow...
                                   
                                  An additional FACT is that all expert testimony of the time described the type of injuries to Abby's head as having been done by a HATCHET or an AXE, a meat cleaver being specifically excluded...
                                   
                                  Your THEORY presents the following scenario:
                                    1)  Lizzie is in the basement doing who knows what; Andrew is in the sitting room reading the paper; Abby and Bridget are in the kitchen and have a heated argument over Abby's request that Bridget wash the windows; this argument ensues only AFTER Bridget has filled a bucket with water to wash the windows and taken it outside, not at the time Abby initially made the request...for some reason neither Lizzie nor Andrew hear this supposed argument between Abby and Bridget, or if Andrew hears it he for some reason ignores this blatant act of disrespect by his employee towards her mistress...
                                   
                                   2)  Abby then goes upstairs to make the bed in the 'guest room', and for some reason doesn't mention to her husband as she goes past him that Bridget is acting pretty 'uppity' and disrespectful towards her; Lizzie is still in the basement doing who knows what...
                                   
                                    3) Andrew is still in the sitting room reading the paper and doesn't notice Bridget, instead of following her mistress' instructions to go outside and wash the windows instead heads toward the front stairs to go upstairs, where she has no business being at that point in time; Andrew not noticing Bridget going past him to go upstairs perhaps explains why he also failed to notice that she inexplicably was carrying a large meat cleaver to go help her mistress 'move furniture'...
                                   
                                    4)  Lizzie is still in the basement doing who knows what; if she failed to hear the argument between her maid and her stepmother when they were directly overhead in the kitchen, it is understandable that she wouldn't hear anything occuring on the 2nd floor in the front of the house; but Andrew is still in the sitting room reading the paper and for some reason doesn't hear the 2nd argument between maid and mistress or perhaps again chooses to ignore Bridget's SECOND act of insubordination...
                                   
                                    5)  while Lizzie is still in the basement doing who knows what, Bridget hacks away at Abby with the meat cleaver; you contend that Andrew heard some sort of noise at that time, but blythely accepts the excuse that Bridget gladly helped Abby move heavy furniture just after having had two heated arguments with her mistress over washing windows...he also fails to notice blood on Bridget when she offers this excuse, and also doesn't question why Bridget is still upstairs when he prepares to leave the house, since he knows she is supposed to be outside washing the windows...indeed, we have to wonder why Bridget just didn't kill Andrew at that time, instead of just offering a lame excuse for the noise...
                                   
                                    6)  Andrew leaves the house via the back door, never wondering why his wife didn't answer when he called out that he was leaving; Lizzie is still putzing around in the basement; Bridget waits a good 15 or 20 minutes until she hears Lizzie in the dining room ironing her handkerchiefs, and then siezes the opportunity to slip down the front stairs, covered in blood and carrying a meat cleaver, to go out the FRONT door; Lizzie never questions where Bridget has been all this time nor what she has been doing; no one on the busy street notices a woman covered in blood and carrying a meat cleaver coming out the front door and going around back to the barn or cellar or wherever you claim Bridget washed up (one would have expected her to leave that infamous bucket of water OUTSIDE for just such a contingency, instead of bringing it back into the kitchen)...all this is occuring at just the same time as the next door maid claims to have seen Bridget washing windows and then having engaged Bridget in a chat fest lasting a good 15 to 20 minutes...
                                   
                                    7)  Lizzie is in the dining room ironing hankies; Bridget reenters the house presumably to retrieve the bucket of water;  Lizzie is perhaps too intent on her ironing to notice that the maid is disheveled and has damp clothes from having washed bloodstains from them...there is never any mention of having seen any sort of stains on Bridget's outfit at that time; perhaps to provide a cover story for why she now has wet clothes on, Bridget now decides that she WILL wash the windows after having committed homocide to avoid having to wash the windows, and proceeds to do so for the next hour...
                                   
                                   8)  Lizzie is still ironing hankies in the dining room when Bridget reenters the house, announces that she has finished washing the outside windows and that she (Bridget) is going upstairs to lie down; Bridget perhaps uses this time to change her clothes, altho Lizzie never mentions that Bridget did so, and later on when the police conduct a thorough search of the premises, they never find anything incriminating amongst Bridget's outfits (to be fair, they also never find anything incriminating amongst Emma's and Lizzie's clothes, either)...
                                   
                                    9)  your time frame gets fuzzy here, but sometime after Bridget finishing washing the windows (oh yes, your contention is that Bridget never washed the windows, in spite of all the eyewitnesses who saw her do so) and before going upstairs to her own room, Andrew returns home; as is his custom he attempts to enter the front door, but is hindered by the fact that the front door remains locked from the inside; it is an amazing trick of Bridget's if, as you claim, she exited the house via the front door after murdering Abby and was able to relock the inside lock FROM THE OUTSIDE.... Bridget has to unlock the door for Andrew, who doesn't notice that Bridget is damp and disheveled; Lizzie had finished ironing hankies (which conflicts with #8 above) and was upstairs doing who knows what, since both her own testimony and Bridget's place Lizzie upstairs at the time of Andrew's return...the only question was if Lizzie was on the stairs or on the upstairs landing at the time...
                                   
                                   10)  Andrew goes into the sitting room; Bridget goes upstairs; Lizzie goes out to the barn, and while out there Bridget slips back down 2 flights of stairs, retreives the meat cleaver and proceeds to hack Andrew to death, somehow not getting any blood on herself; she is then able to either clean the cleaver or hide it so successfully that it is never found, and beat it back up 2 flight of stairs before Lizzie returns to the house and discovers Andrew's body; you do not explain why Bridget didn't kill Andrew BEFORE he left the house and waited to kill him until he returned...
                                   
                                   11)  After experts examine the bodies of Andrew and Abby, they all authoritatively pronounce that the murder weapon had to be a hatchet or an axe, specifically excluding a meat cleaver as the weapon...
                                   
                                   12)  For some reason the Bordens, adamant teetotallers all, tolerated Bridget's supposed alcohol addiction, according to your contention; yet you offer no evidence other than Bridget's occasional headaches, as EVIDENCE of her supposed 'drinking problem', and indeed she not only never displayed such a problem BEFORE being hired by the Borden's, she never displays such a problem in the years after the murder...
                                   
                                   
                                  >Lizzie left the
                                  cellar, passed her father sitting in the sitting room and went up to her room. 
                                  >The guest bedroom door was closed. 
                                  Oh, so now you say that after having putzed around in the basement for who knows how long, Lizzie decided to go upstairs to her own room...what about that ironing, then?  What about all the testimony stating that Lizzie was downstairs when Abby announced she was going upstairs to straighten up the guest room?  Why would Lizzie lie about such a thing if Bridget was the culprit?
                                   
                                   
                                  >Andrew was killed because he would
                                  have known that Bridget was upstairs at the very time
                                  >Abby was
                                  killed.  He had to go for sure now.
                                   
                                  So why didn't Bridget kill him BEFORE he left the house?
                                   
                                  And according to your own scenario, LIZZIE would have also known that Bridget was upstairs at the time Abby was killed -- so why wouldn't Bridget also kill her?
                                   
                                   
                                  >It is a fact that Mr. Borden was seen by
                                  Mrs. Churchill leaving his house around 9:00,
                                  >taking Lizzie's
                                  letter to Emma to the post office.  Bridget now had to wait till she heard
                                  >Lizzie begin to iron, then sneaked out the house by the
                                  front door and go to the barn.
                                   
                                  Let's get this straight -- according to your above description, Lizzie is putzing around in the basement when Andrew leaves the house, while Bridget is upstairs with the body of Abby whom Bridget has just killed; how then could Abby have told Lizzie that she was going upstairs to straighten up the guest room, which according to testimony Abby said/did AFTER Andrew left the house?
                                   
                                  Whatever -- according to your THEORY, Bridget is upstairs with the rapidly cooling body of Mrs. Borden when Andrew leaves the house; she waits for Lizzie to start ironing which, according to you, doesn't happen until about 9:30...so what was Lizzie doing during all that time?  Why didn't Lizzie question Bridget's half an hour's disappearance?  Why would Bridget wait for Lizzie to start ironing to supposedly sneak out the front door?  Why not do so while Lizzie was in her own room (BTW, when DOES Lizzie go to her own room in this time frame of yours?  How does Lizzie-in-the-cellar-Lizzie-in-her-bedroom-Lizzie-ironing-in-the-dining-room fit into all this)?
                                   
                                  You claim Bridget never washed any windows, yet what do you claim she was doing between 9:30 and 11?  Especially since eyewitnesses testified to having seen her washing windows, and the nextdoor maid testified to having talked to Bridget between 9:30 and 9:45 AFTER having seen Bridget wash a couple of windows (which places Bridget outside the house before 9:30)?
                                   
                                   
                                  >Bridget had been told to wash all the
                                  windows.  There are 13 windows, not counting the two on each side of the front door.
                                  >Lizzie said Bridget did not wash the kitchen ones,
                                  as she was there nearly all the morning.
                                   
                                  Hmmm...first it's "Lizzie's in the basement", then it's "Lizzie's in the dining room ironing", then it was "Lizzie's upstairs in her own room", now you say Lizzie was in the kitchen most of the morning...
                                   
                                   
                                  >Bridget heard a thud when she was on the opposite side of the
                                  house with the windows closed?  Right.
                                   
                                  That's my point; no one outside the house could have heard Abby falling (or slumping) to the floor even if all of the windows had been open, there would have been just too much noise out on the street...
                                   
                                   
                                  June
                                   
                                   
                                   
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                                • Muriel Arnold
                                  Hi June: Don t know about you, but someone is fixing to give me a headache. ... Bridget went outside and Lizzie went down to the cellar ... This tends to prove
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jan 28, 2003
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                                    Hi June:
                                    Don't know about you, but someone is fixing to give me a headache.
                                    Here goes:
                                    > Where did Bridget GO when Lizzie saw her leave?
                                    Bridget went outside and Lizzie went down to the cellar
                                     
                                    >Bridget returned inside.  Mrs. Borden, for some reason, was still dusting in the dining room. 
                                    This tends to prove Bridget re-entered the house almost immediately after having gone outside.  The dining room was not that big, yet Mrs. Borden was still there dusting.  Now we have Lizzie in the cellar, Mr. Borden in the sitting room, and Bridget and Mrs. Borden in the dining room.  The argument commences.
                                    >You say there was absolutely NO evidence that Bridget ever argued with Abby over washing the windows.
                                    There is NO evidence that she did not.
                                     
                                    <Mr. Borden heard Bridget argue with Abby and did not intervened?
                                    We don't know how loud their voices were.  I do know Bridget said Abby went into the kitchen.
                                    I say Bridget followed her but Mrs. Borden, expecting company on Monday, refused and headed upstairs.
                                    Had Mr. Borden intervened, there would have been no murder.
                                     
                                    <Asking you to believe Bridget confronted Abby while wielding a meat cleaver and Abby never screamed, yelled, or do SOMETHING.
                                    I say all Abby had time to do was take a breath in order to be able to scream. 
                                     <Abby on her knees.
                                    Wrong.
                                    Abby told Lizzie that she had made up the room and all she needed to do was put shams on the small pillow cases on the bed.
                                    Bridget was not wielding the cleaver in plain sight.  It was hidden under her apron.  I believe Bridget struck while Mrs. Borden was standing.
                                     
                                    <Andrew would not have asked why they were moving furniture after Bridget had been told specifically to wash the windows.  His calling out good-bye to Abby when he left and not wonder why she didn't answer?
                                    **Who said he ever told anyone good-bye when he left?
                                     
                                    <Fact that only a hatchet or axe was mentioned?
                                    Wrong.
                                    Two doctors stated the murder weapon to be a hatchet or meat cleaver.
                                     
                                    <the argument between Bridget and Abby AFTER Bridget had filled her bucket of water.
                                    True, but Bridget had been told to wash the windows at the breakfast table, around 7:15, not 9:00 as Bridget tried to convince everyone.
                                    Lizzie said she came into the kitchen.  Everything except the coffee pot had been put away and Bridget said Mrs. Borden wanted her to wash the windows.
                                    It is known Lizzie went down to the cellar to put her sanitary cloth in the pail to soak.
                                     
                                    <3.  The fact that Mr. Borden saw Bridget follow Mrs. Borden upstairs when she was supposed to go out and wash windows:
                                    That does not mean that Bridget was carrying the cleaver in plain sight.  An apron would hide just about anything you didn't want someone to see.
                                     
                                    <4.  Lizzie didn't hear the argument going on right above her head.  Maybe Andrew did decide to keep out of the argument going on between Bridget and Abby.
                                    This is probably not the first time Bridget and Abby had words.  Mr. Borden could have decided that it was Abby's problem.
                                     
                                    <5.  Andrew accepting Bridget's helping Mrs. Borden move furniture instead of going out to wash windows.
                                    Okay.  For all he knew, maybe Abby agreed to postpone the window washing and instead, she got Bridget to rearrange the furniture.  Andrew could have cared less what the women did.
                                    <...he also fails to notice blood on Bridget when she offers this excuse:
                                    You cannot see the upstairs hallway from the front entrance.
                                    <...Why didn't Bridget just kill Andrew at that time?
                                    Had Bridget tried to do so, for certain he would have noticed the blood on her.  She could not have caught him off guard.
                                     
                                    <6 and 7.  Andrew leaves by the back door, never wondering why his wife hadn't answered his good-bye; Lizzie still putzing around in the basement; Bridget waits a good 15-20 minutes until she hears Lizzie begin to iron, then slips  downstairs, covered in blood and carrying a meat cleaver, out the FRONT door and Lizzie never questions where Bridget had been all this time etc.
                                     
                                    ***Lizzie was in the kitchen when her father left the house.  Lizzie then put her irons on the stoves.  It took 20-25 minutes for them to heat.  Bridget waited till she heard the irons again before she left by the FRONT door.  Why would Lizzie question where Bridget had been all this time.  To her knowledge, Bridget was already outside washing windows.
                                     
                                    <No one on that busy street noticed a woman covered in blood and carrying a meat cleaver, coming out the front door and going around back to the barn to wash up.
                                    ***Who pays attention to a maid?  All they would have gotten was a glimpse of her.  The cleaver hidden under her apron. 
                                    Bridget did not bring the bucket back into the house.  It was only after Abby continued to refuse to postpone the window washing that Bridget's hot temper got the better of her.
                                     
                                    <The Kelly maid claims to have seen Bridget washing windows and then having engaged Bridget in a chat fest lasting a good 15 to 20 minutes.
                                    ***I never read that.
                                    Bridget testified she went out to wash windows at 9:30.  She made six or seven trips to the barn for water; after the first pail was used up.
                                    Bridget actually had 13 windows to wash.  Seeing Lizzie said she did not wash the kitchen ones, Bridget said she had eleven windows to wash.  She did not wash the kitchen ones.  So:
                                    If Bridget finished washing them by 10:20, then she washed those 11 windows in 35 minutes.  11:20 -9:45.
                                    She moved the ladder, pail and brush from window to window, climbed and descended the ladder 11 times (11 minutes), and went six times for water.  That's one minute to fill the pail and one minute to go and return from the barn.  (12 minutes)   (11 plus 12=23) minutes subtracted from the 35 minutes means Bridget washed 11 windows in 12 minutes.
                                    You want me to believe Bridget washed 11 windows in 12 minutes when she was sick to her stomach, had supposedly thrown up, had a headache and dressed as she was, yet succeeded in doing all that in 12 minutes.  Bridget was told to wash all the windows.
                                     
                                    <8.  Lizzie still ironing handkerchiefs in the dining room when Bridget reenters the house, announces she has finished washing the outside windows and that she is going upstairs to lie down.  Perhaps Bridget uses this time to change her clothes, even though Lizzie never says she did.
                                    Later, when the police came and made a thorough search of the premises, they never found anything incriminating amongst Bridget's outfits...
                                     
                                    ***Lizzie said she saw Bridget come in and go upstairs BEFORE her father came home.  Time unknown.
                                    Officer Mullaly, while searching Bridget's room, said he had not moved the clothes he found on Bridget's bed.  Mrs. Churchill thought Bridget had worn a light blue dress that morning.  Bridget testified she wore a dark blue dress and changed into a light blue one in the afternoon.
                                     
                                    <9.  Before going up to her room, Andrew returned but was unable to get in.
                                    Okay. 
                                    1.  While talking to the Kelly maid, Bridget said she heard the front door open and close but paid no attention to it. Seeing her back was to the house, why didn't Bridget ask Mary Doolan who came in?  Mary Doolan would have been in a position to see him or her.
                                     
                                    2. Lizzie said her father rang the bell.  Bridget let him in.  She came into the kitchen and told Lizzie Mr. Borden had forgotten his key, and headed upstairs to her room.  Lizzie left the kitchen and joined her father in the sitting room.  Lizzie had also asked the women to go upstairs and look for Mrs. Borden, as she thought she had heard her come in.
                                    It was not her mother who came in, but Bridget.  In one of her efforts to account for everything, Bridget told reporters that she saw Mr. Borden coming from across the street and raced across the lower floor to let him in,
                                    If Bridget was washing the sitting room windows when Mr. Borden came home, there is no way she could have seen him coming across the street.
                                    Questioned about his ringing the bell, she couldn't remember if it rang or not.
                                     
                                    His going into the dining room was Bridget's invention, as was her having trouble letting him in and hearing Lizzie laugh upstairs.
                                     
                                    <10.  ..Bridget went up to her room, Lizzie goes to the barn, Bridget comes down two flights, retrieves the meat cleaver and hacks Andrew to death without getting blood on herself, clean or hide the cleaver so that it is never found and beat it back upstairs before Lizzie returns to the house.  Why did Bridget not kill Andrew BEFORE he left the house?
                                     
                                    ***Sorry, but Bridget never went up to her room, as Lizzie thought she had.  Instead, Bridget latched the back door to prevent Morse from returning unexpectedly and hid in the dining room.
                                     
                                    It explains how Bridget knew Lizzie asked her father if he had mail for her.  Lizzie claimed she helped her father lay down.  It took two or three minutes and was gone less than five minutes.
                                    On the other hand, Bridget said she spoke to Mr. Borden five minutes before Lizzie sounded the alarm.  Bridget used his coat to protect her dress, rinsed the cleaver in the sink, rinsed out the rag and hug it behind the stove and, seeing Lizzie in the process of latching the barn door, swung open the screen door and ran up the first flight of stairs.  Unfortunately, Lizzie heard the cleaver scrape the wall as she did so.
                                     
                                    Bridget tried to blame Mrs. Bowen for her excuse to fetch Miss Russell.  That she changed to Lizzie telling her to fetch Miss Russell as she did not want to be alone in the house.
                                     
                                    <11.  Hatchet or axe.
                                    Already answered.
                                     
                                    <12.  Bridget's drinking:
                                    I never mentioned Bridget had a drinking problem in my book.  My friend in New Hampshire and I, while discussing Bridget one night, reached the same conclusion.  Judy said she knew Bridget liked to drink.  I had no knowledge of that, but it didn't surprise me as Bridget said to some that she got home at 10:00 Wednesday night, and to others, it was 10:30 when she went to bed.  Women back then were expected to be home by 9:00.
                                     
                                    <Lizzie left the cellar, went up to her room, guest bedroom door closed:
                                    ***Lizzie said she was downstairs for about five minutes, took some clean clothes to her room, basted a loop on one of her dresses, came back down and stayed down.  Her father joined her in the kitchen and she gave him a letter she had written to Emma and he left.  She put her irons on the stove, sat down and waited for them to heat up.
                                     
                                    I never read where Abby announced she was going upstairs to straighten up the guest room.  I read where Lizzie said Abby told her the guest bedroom was done and needed only the shams put on the pillows.
                                     
                                    <Why didn't Bridget kill Mr. Borden BEFORE he left the house?
                                    ***Simple.  She was covered with blood.  She could not have caught him unawares.  She decided to wait for him to return home and take his usual morning nap before dinner.
                                     
                                    <Lizzie would have also known Bridget was upstairs at the time Abby was killed - so why wouldn't Bridget also kill her?
                                    **Wrong.  Lizzie thought Bridget was outside washing windows before her mother went upstairs.
                                     
                                    <Lizzie is putzing around in the basement when Andrew leaves the house...
                                    ***Come again?
                                    Lizzie was in the kitchen when her father left the house.  She had already been upstairs and had come back down again and stayed down.  By that time, Abby was already dead.  Had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom, Bridget would have had no choice but to kill Lizzie also.
                                     
                                    <  Why didn't Lizzie question Bridget's half an hour's disappearance?
                                    Lizzie knew nothing about Bridget's half hour disappearance.
                                     
                                    <  How does Lizzie-in-the-cellar, Lizzie-in-her-bedroom, Lizzie-ironing-in-the dining-room fit into all this.
                                    It was between 8:52 and 9:00 that Lizzie went down to the cellar, came back up and was in her room for about two minutes and came back down right around 9:00. She did not start ironing till sometime between 9:20 and 9:30, the time Bridget claimed she was straightening her kitchen.
                                     
                                    <What do you claim Bridget was doing between 9:30 and 11?
                                    ***You say the next door maid testified (when?) to having talked to Bridget between 9:30 and 9:45 AFTER having seen Bridget wash a couple of windows (which places Bridget outside the house before 9:30?
                                     
                                    No way Jose.  It was Bridget who claimed Lizzie ironed in the dining room. AFTER her father came home!  Lizzie stated she did no ironing after her father came home because the fire had died down and her irons were no longer hot enough.  Bridget said she had made a small fire for breakfast that morning and had time enough to get it going again in time for dinner.  (For those not from New England, dinner is the noon meal, not supper,)
                                     
                                    <The thud:
                                    Now you got it.  Bridget had no reason to say she heard a thud while outside washing windows.  It was Bridget accounting for everything anyone came out with.  If they said Mrs. Borden's body must have hit the floor with a thud which must have shook the house, then she heard it, as Bridget aimed to please.
                                     
                                    June, do me a favor, let's not get started on Bridget's washing the inside windows.
                                    Have a great day.
                                    Muriel
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    Muriel Arnold
                                     
                                    Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                                    For more information
                                    muriela@...
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: RevCOAL
                                    Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 2:28 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [40Whacks] Emma Leaves MaplecroftJune

                                    >Lizzie came downstairs around 8:45, just after Morse left.  Her father was reading the Providence
                                    >Journal in the sitting room.  Her mother was dusting in the dining room.  Mrs. Borden told Lizzie
                                    >all she had left to do was to put shams on the small pillows upstairs and she was through.  Lizzie
                                    >enters the kitchen.  Bridget is filling a pail of water to wash the windows and leaves.
                                     
                                    And where does Bridget GO at that time, according to your THEORY?
                                     
                                     
                                    >Lizzies goes into the cellar.  Instead of washing windows, Bridget re-entered the house and argued
                                    >with Mrs. Borden to have the window washing postponed.  Mrs. Borden refused. 
                                     
                                    There is absolutely NO evidence that Bridget ever argued with Abby over washing the windows...
                                     
                                     
                                    >Andrew is still in the sitting room.  At the  trial, Bridget said Mrs. Borden told her to wash the
                                    >windows.  She went into the kitchen.
                                    >Conclusion:  Bridget followed her there, argued some more, and Mrs. Borden went upstairs. 
                                    >Bridget picked up the meat cleaver and followed her.
                                     
                                    And Andrew never heard the maid arguing with her mistress and intervened?  Was he so absorbed by The Providence Journal that he didn't notice Bridget storming past him with a meat cleaver in her hand to go up the front stairs, where she had absolutely NO business being at that time?
                                     
                                     
                                    >One more refusal and Bridget killed her.  Andrew heard Abby's body hit the floor
                                     
                                    You're asking us to believe that Bridget confronted Abby over washing the windows while wielding a meat cleaver, and all Abby did was reiterate that the windows had to be washed?  One would expect Abby to have screamed, yelled, done SOMETHING...
                                     
                                    Your THEORY ignores the fact that the physical evidence of the crime scene showed that whomever hacked Abby to death did so by sneaking up behind her while Abby was on her knees making the bed -- hardly a position the mistress of the house would have been in had her maid come storming in continuing a supposed argument over an assigned duty...especially if the maid was wielding a meat cleaver at the same time...
                                     
                                     
                                    >and no doubt asked what was going on.  No doubt Bridget went out into the hall and told
                                    >him something like they were moving furniture and he returned to the sitting room.
                                     
                                    And Andrew wouldn't have asked WHY they were supposedly moving furniture?  He wouldn't have asked why Bridget was in a front upstairs room when his wife had specifically instructed her to wash the windows at that time, especially after having heard the supposed argument Abby and Bridget had just had over the issue a few minutes before?  He wouldn't have called out 'good-bye' to Abby when he left and wondered why she didn't answer?
                                     
                                    First off, there's no evidence that ANYONE ever heard Abby fall; much has been made of Abby's weight and how much noise someone of her size would supposedly make when falling...what is ignored is the fact that someone of that size already has a fair amount of natural padding, add to that the 'unnatural' padding of the typical Victorian woman's outfit, and even if she fell from a standing position (which she probably wouldn't, in all probability her knees would have given out and she would have slumped to the floor), she probably wouldn't have made as much noise as people presume.  Add to that the FACT that the position of her body when discovered suggests that she was on her knees wedged between the bed and the chest of drawers, probably in the act of making the bed.  In that position she wouldn't have had far to slump to the floor after the first blow...
                                     
                                    An additional FACT is that all expert testimony of the time described the type of injuries to Abby's head as having been done by a HATCHET or an AXE, a meat cleaver being specifically excluded...
                                     
                                    Your THEORY presents the following scenario:
                                      1)  Lizzie is in the basement doing who knows what; Andrew is in the sitting room reading the paper; Abby and Bridget are in the kitchen and have a heated argument over Abby's request that Bridget wash the windows; this argument ensues only AFTER Bridget has filled a bucket with water to wash the windows and taken it outside, not at the time Abby initially made the request...for some reason neither Lizzie nor Andrew hear this supposed argument between Abby and Bridget, or if Andrew hears it he for some reason ignores this blatant act of disrespect by his employee towards her mistress...
                                     
                                     2)  Abby then goes upstairs to make the bed in the 'guest room', and for some reason doesn't mention to her husband as she goes past him that Bridget is acting pretty 'uppity' and disrespectful towards her; Lizzie is still in the basement doing who knows what...
                                     
                                      3) Andrew is still in the sitting room reading the paper and doesn't notice Bridget, instead of following her mistress' instructions to go outside and wash the windows instead heads toward the front stairs to go upstairs, where she has no business being at that point in time; Andrew not noticing Bridget going past him to go upstairs perhaps explains why he also failed to notice that she inexplicably was carrying a large meat cleaver to go help her mistress 'move furniture'...
                                     
                                      4)  Lizzie is still in the basement doing who knows what; if she failed to hear the argument between her maid and her stepmother when they were directly overhead in the kitchen, it is understandable that she wouldn't hear anything occuring on the 2nd floor in the front of the house; but Andrew is still in the sitting room reading the paper and for some reason doesn't hear the 2nd argument between maid and mistress or perhaps again chooses to ignore Bridget's SECOND act of insubordination...
                                     
                                      5)  while Lizzie is still in the basement doing who knows what, Bridget hacks away at Abby with the meat cleaver; you contend that Andrew heard some sort of noise at that time, but blythely accepts the excuse that Bridget gladly helped Abby move heavy furniture just after having had two heated arguments with her mistress over washing windows...he also fails to notice blood on Bridget when she offers this excuse, and also doesn't question why Bridget is still upstairs when he prepares to leave the house, since he knows she is supposed to be outside washing the windows...indeed, we have to wonder why Bridget just didn't kill Andrew at that time, instead of just offering a lame excuse for the noise...
                                     
                                      6)  Andrew leaves the house via the back door, never wondering why his wife didn't answer when he called out that he was leaving; Lizzie is still putzing around in the basement; Bridget waits a good 15 or 20 minutes until she hears Lizzie in the dining room ironing her handkerchiefs, and then siezes the opportunity to slip down the front stairs, covered in blood and carrying a meat cleaver, to go out the FRONT door; Lizzie never questions where Bridget has been all this time nor what she has been doing; no one on the busy street notices a woman covered in blood and carrying a meat cleaver coming out the front door and going around back to the barn or cellar or wherever you claim Bridget washed up (one would have expected her to leave that infamous bucket of water OUTSIDE for just such a contingency, instead of bringing it back into the kitchen)...all this is occuring at just the same time as the next door maid claims to have seen Bridget washing windows and then having engaged Bridget in a chat fest lasting a good 15 to 20 minutes...
                                     
                                      7)  Lizzie is in the dining room ironing hankies; Bridget reenters the house presumably to retrieve the bucket of water;  Lizzie is perhaps too intent on her ironing to notice that the maid is disheveled and has damp clothes from having washed bloodstains from them...there is never any mention of having seen any sort of stains on Bridget's outfit at that time; perhaps to provide a cover story for why she now has wet clothes on, Bridget now decides that she WILL wash the windows after having committed homocide to avoid having to wash the windows, and proceeds to do so for the next hour...
                                     
                                     8)  Lizzie is still ironing hankies in the dining room when Bridget reenters the house, announces that she has finished washing the outside windows and that she (Bridget) is going upstairs to lie down; Bridget perhaps uses this time to change her clothes, altho Lizzie never mentions that Bridget did so, and later on when the police conduct a thorough search of the premises, they never find anything incriminating amongst Bridget's outfits (to be fair, they also never find anything incriminating amongst Emma's and Lizzie's clothes, either)...
                                     
                                      9)  your time frame gets fuzzy here, but sometime after Bridget finishing washing the windows (oh yes, your contention is that Bridget never washed the windows, in spite of all the eyewitnesses who saw her do so) and before going upstairs to her own room, Andrew returns home; as is his custom he attempts to enter the front door, but is hindered by the fact that the front door remains locked from the inside; it is an amazing trick of Bridget's if, as you claim, she exited the house via the front door after murdering Abby and was able to relock the inside lock FROM THE OUTSIDE.... Bridget has to unlock the door for Andrew, who doesn't notice that Bridget is damp and disheveled; Lizzie had finished ironing hankies (which conflicts with #8 above) and was upstairs doing who knows what, since both her own testimony and Bridget's place Lizzie upstairs at the time of Andrew's return...the only question was if Lizzie was on the stairs or on the upstairs landing at the time...
                                     
                                     10)  Andrew goes into the sitting room; Bridget goes upstairs; Lizzie goes out to the barn, and while out there Bridget slips back down 2 flights of stairs, retreives the meat cleaver and proceeds to hack Andrew to death, somehow not getting any blood on herself; she is then able to either clean the cleaver or hide it so successfully that it is never found, and beat it back up 2 flight of stairs before Lizzie returns to the house and discovers Andrew's body; you do not explain why Bridget didn't kill Andrew BEFORE he left the house and waited to kill him until he returned...
                                     
                                     11)  After experts examine the bodies of Andrew and Abby, they all authoritatively pronounce that the murder weapon had to be a hatchet or an axe, specifically excluding a meat cleaver as the weapon...
                                     
                                     12)  For some reason the Bordens, adamant teetotallers all, tolerated Bridget's supposed alcohol addiction, according to your contention; yet you offer no evidence other than Bridget's occasional headaches, as EVIDENCE of her supposed 'drinking problem', and indeed she not only never displayed such a problem BEFORE being hired by the Borden's, she never displays such a problem in the years after the murder...
                                     
                                     
                                    >Lizzie left the cellar, passed her father sitting in the sitting room and went up to her room. 
                                    >The guest bedroom door was closed. 
                                    Oh, so now you say that after having putzed around in the basement for who knows how long, Lizzie decided to go upstairs to her own room...what about that ironing, then?  What about all the testimony stating that Lizzie was downstairs when Abby announced she was going upstairs to straighten up the guest room?  Why would Lizzie lie about such a thing if Bridget was the culprit?
                                     
                                     
                                    >Andrew was killed because he would have known that Bridget was upstairs at the very time
                                    >Abby was killed.  He had to go for sure now.
                                     
                                    So why didn't Bridget kill him BEFORE he left the house?
                                     
                                    And according to your own scenario, LIZZIE would have also known that Bridget was upstairs at the time Abby was killed -- so why wouldn't Bridget also kill her?
                                     
                                     
                                    >It is a fact that Mr. Borden was seen by Mrs. Churchill leaving his house around 9:00,
                                    >taking Lizzie's letter to Emma to the post office.  Bridget now had to wait till she heard
                                    >Lizzie begin to iron, then sneaked out the house by the front door and go to the barn.
                                     
                                    Let's get this straight -- according to your above description, Lizzie is putzing around in the basement when Andrew leaves the house, while Bridget is upstairs with the body of Abby whom Bridget has just killed; how then could Abby have told Lizzie that she was going upstairs to straighten up the guest room, which according to testimony Abby said/did AFTER Andrew left the house?
                                     
                                    Whatever -- according to your THEORY, Bridget is upstairs with the rapidly cooling body of Mrs. Borden when Andrew leaves the house; she waits for Lizzie to start ironing which, according to you, doesn't happen until about 9:30...so what was Lizzie doing during all that time?  Why didn't Lizzie question Bridget's half an hour's disappearance?  Why would Bridget wait for Lizzie to start ironing to supposedly sneak out the front door?  Why not do so while Lizzie was in her own room (BTW, when DOES Lizzie go to her own room in this time frame of yours?  How does Lizzie-in-the-cellar-Lizzie-in-her-bedroom-Lizzie-ironing-in-the-dining-room fit into all this)?
                                     
                                    You claim Bridget never washed any windows, yet what do you claim she was doing between 9:30 and 11?  Especially since eyewitnesses testified to having seen her washing windows, and the nextdoor maid testified to having talked to Bridget between 9:30 and 9:45 AFTER having seen Bridget wash a couple of windows (which places Bridget outside the house before 9:30)?
                                     
                                     
                                    >Bridget had been told to wash all the windows.  There are 13 windows, not counting the two on each side of the front door.
                                    >Lizzie said Bridget did not wash the kitchen ones, as she was there nearly all the morning.
                                     
                                    Hmmm...first it's "Lizzie's in the basement", then it's "Lizzie's in the dining room ironing", then it was "Lizzie's upstairs in her own room", now you say Lizzie was in the kitchen most of the morning...
                                     
                                     
                                    >Bridget heard a thud when she was on the opposite side of the house with the windows closed?  Right.
                                     
                                    That's my point; no one outside the house could have heard Abby falling (or slumping) to the floor even if all of the windows had been open, there would have been just too much noise out on the street...
                                     
                                     
                                    June
                                     
                                     
                                     
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                                  • RevCOAL
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jan 29, 2003
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                                      >Don't know about you, but someone is fixing to give me a headache.
                                       
                                      And if you DO come down with a headache, rest assured that *I* will not imply that that implies you have a hangover...  ;-)
                                       
                                       

                                      >> Where did Bridget GO when
                                      Lizzie saw her leave?
                                      >Bridget went outside and Lizzie went down to the
                                      cellar
                                      >
                                      >Bridget returned inside.  Mrs. Borden, for some
                                      reason, was still dusting in the dining room. 
                                      >This tends to prove
                                      Bridget re-entered the house almost immediately after having gone outside. 
                                       
                                      So you are asking us that Bridget objected to washing the windows so much that she would commit double homocide, and yet when initially requested to wash the windows she quietly filled a bucket of water and brought it outside without saying a word; what was the great epiphanal moment which occured to Bridget when she was outside to cause her to decide not only not to wash the windows, but to contemplate murder if her employer insisted she complete the task?
                                       
                                      On a hot sticky day, why would washing windows in the morning be a more objectionable task than the alternative, being stuck in a hot sticky house washing dishes and making preparations for lunch in a kitchen with a hot stove?
                                       
                                      If I was feeling under the weather on a hot sticky day, I for one would much prefer a relatively easy chore outdoors using cool water than to be stuck doing choses inside in hot sticky rooms....
                                       
                                       
                                      >The dining room was not that big, yet Mrs.
                                      Borden was still there dusting.
                                       
                                      I suspect she was just putting on a show of keeping busy...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Now we have Lizzie in the
                                      cellar, Mr. Borden in the sitting room, and Bridget and
                                      >Mrs. Borden in
                                      the dining room.  The argument commences.
                                       
                                      An argument that Andrew doesn't hear from the next room?  An argument that Lizzie doesn't hear directly below in the cellar?
                                       

                                      >>You say there was absolutely NO evidence that Bridget ever argued with Abby over washing the windows.

                                      >There is NO
                                      evidence that she did not.
                                       
                                      You can never prove a negative.  You may as well state that Abby and Bridget argued over Bridget's affair with Andrew -- there is no evidence that Bridget and Andrew ever had an affair or that Bridget argued with Abby over it, but there is no evidence that it did NOT occur...
                                       
                                      You can't claim to have PROVED who committed the murders based just on personal speculation...you admit in your above statement that there IS no proof for this alleged argument regarding the window washing, and choose instead to fall back on an EXCUSE that there is no proof that it did NOT occur; law does not work that way, you have to provide evidence that something DID occur, not utilize an excuse that there is no evidence that it did not occur.
                                       
                                      There is no evidence that I did not assassinate John F. Kennedy -- so according to your logic, that means that I DID assassinate him?

                                       

                                      ><Mr. Borden heard Bridget argue
                                      with Abby and did not intervened?
                                      >We don't know how loud their voices
                                      were.
                                       
                                      Come on, Muriel!  You're asking us to believe that Bridget was so upset about being asked to wash the windows that she not only would commit a double homocide, but commit the killings in an extremely violent manner, definitely a 'crime of passion' -- and yet you expect us to believe that this alleged argument was done in soft voices so no one else could hear?
                                       
                                      As someone with some Irish heritage in my background, I can with some authority tell you that Irish women RARELY argue in a quiet manner...  ;-)
                                       
                                       
                                      >I do know Bridget said Abby went
                                      into the kitchen.
                                      >I say Bridget followed her but Mrs. Borden, expecting
                                      company on Monday, refused and headed upstairs.
                                       
                                      Uhhh...this was occuring on a THURSDAY, so what does expecting company on Monday have to do with the price of coffee in Brazil in August 1892?
                                       
                                       
                                      >Had
                                      Mr. Borden intervened, there would have been no murder.
                                       
                                      So why didn't he?


                                      ><Asking you to believe Bridget confronted Abby while wielding a meat cleaver and Abby never screamed, yelled, or do SOMETHING.

                                      >I say all Abby had time to do was take a breath in order
                                      to be able to scream.
                                       
                                      This isn't what you said before; you said Bridget took the meat cleaver upstairs to confront Abby one more time over the window washing issue; you stated to the effect that when Abby refused to relent on the request the second time, that that was when Bridget let her have it.  That means they spent more time than Abby just grabbing one breath, your scenario suggests at least a couple of seconds in which to have a conversation, albeit a short one (one envisages in your scenario Bridget demanding "Do you still want me to wash those windows?" and Abby saying "Yes I do, and by the way a meat cleaver isn't the most appropriate tool to use to wash windows...", then Bridget commenced whacking away at Abby)...
                                       

                                      ><Abby on her knees.

                                      >Wrong.
                                      >Abby told Lizzie that she had made up the room and
                                      all she needed to do
                                      >was put shams on the small pillow cases on the
                                      bed.
                                      >Bridget was not wielding the cleaver in plain sight.  It was
                                      hidden under her
                                      >apron.  I believe Bridget struck while Mrs. Borden
                                      was standing.
                                       
                                      This is not supported by the FACTS:  Abby's body was found wedged between the far side of the bed and the dresser, face down; the angle of her body shows that she was facing AWAY from the door (and hence the killer who entered via that door), and the pattern of blood splatters (what few there were) suggests that she was on her knees when attacked; if Abby was kneeling, that would help explain the lack of a loud noise everyone thinks should have occured if she fell from a standing position.  Even if she DID fall from a standing position, the location of the body shows that she was facing AWAY from her attacker; the fact that she never screamed or called out suggests that she was taken by surprise, hence no conversation with Bridget regarding washing windows...
                                       
                                      Regardless of what Abby told Lizzie she was planning on doing in the upstairs room, the position of Abby's body shows that she was doing something more than fluffing pillows; if she wasn't in the act of actually making the bed, then she was on her knees for some other reason, perhaps looking for something under the bed or under the dresser -- which opens up a whole other can of worms, because then we have to wonder what it was she was looking for, why she seemingly wanted to keep it secret from Lizzie, and did this 'something' have any connection with John Morse, who had spent the previous night in that room?  A much more intriguing and relevant thread to follow than the inane "Bridget committed double homocide because she had a hangove and didn't want to wash windows" premise...
                                       
                                      Even if Bridget managed to hide a meat cleaver under her apron (or in a large pocket that such aprons usually had), you're still asking us to believe that she premeditated Abby's murder over something trivial like being asked to wash windows...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><Andrew would not have asked why they
                                      were moving furniture after Bridget had
                                      >been told specifically to wash
                                      the windows.  His calling out good-bye to Abby when
                                      >he left and not
                                      wonder why she didn't answer?
                                      >**Who said he ever told anyone good-bye
                                      when he left?
                                       
                                      It's a common enough custom; you're asking us to believe that Bridget committed double homocide because there is no evidence that she and Abby did NOT have an argument, I contend that while there may not be any EVIDENCE that Andrew routinely told family member 'adieu' when he left the house, one can accept that as a greater liklihood than Abby and Bridget arguing over a trivial request to do a simple chore...
                                       
                                      And especially if Bridget was continuing a heated argument with Abby (which I find hard to believe Andrew could not hear unless he was stone-deaf), I find it hard to believe that Andrew wouldn't have said something before leaving, if only to make sure that whatever was being contended had been resolved or at least would be taken care of before he returned; I don't fathom Andrew as being someone who would have cared for his household being in a state of turmoil for any length of time...and I definitely don't believe that he would have tolerated such turmoil being instigated by his maid.
                                       
                                       
                                      ><Fact that only a hatchet
                                      or axe was mentioned?
                                      >Wrong.
                                      >Two doctors stated the murder weapon
                                      to be a hatchet or meat cleaver.
                                       
                                      Wrong.  A meat cleaver was specifically EXCLUDED, as being the wrong angle of blade for the type of injuries inflicted on the Bordens; only a hatchet or an axe could have inflicted such injuries...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><the argument between Bridget and
                                      Abby AFTER Bridget had filled her bucket of water.
                                      >True, but Bridget had
                                      been told to wash the windows at the breakfast table, around 7:15,
                                      >not
                                      9:00 as Bridget tried to convince everyone.
                                       
                                      You can't even keep track of your own timetable; in your other post you stated that Bridget filled the bucket and took it out at the same time that Lizzie went down to the cellar, then Bridget came back inside and started arguing with Abby over washing the windows.  If Lizzie was down in the basement, that has to be closer to 9 am than 7:15.
                                       
                                      Abby may have mentioned washing the windows earlier in the morning, fact of the matter is that Bridget didn't fill a bucket of water and take it outside until 9 am or so; you are asking us to believe that she objected strongly to washing the windows, but if so why did she wait until filling a bucket and taking it outside to say anything?  This is even stranger if, as you now contend, the request was first made at 7:15...if Bridget was so upset over the prospect of performing the chore that she would commit a double homocide, why didn't she say anything BEFORE FILLING THE BUCKET?
                                       
                                       
                                      >Lizzie said she came into the kitchen. 
                                      Everything except the coffee pot had been put away and
                                      >Bridget said Mrs.
                                      Borden wanted her to wash the windows.
                                      >It is known Lizzie went down to
                                      the cellar to put her sanitary cloth in the pail to soak.
                                       
                                      And in your scenario you have her down there doing this chore for a good 20 to 30 minutes...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><3.  The fact that Mr. Borden saw
                                      Bridget follow Mrs. Borden upstairs when she was supposed to go out and wash windows:
                                      >That does not mean that Bridget was carrying the cleaver in
                                      plain sight. 
                                       
                                      It DOES mean that Bridget was disobeying a direct order from her mistress and going to an area of the house that she had no business being at that moment, immediately after a heated argument with her mistress over a request to do a simple chore; whether a meat cleaver was in plain sight or not, I find it hard to believe that Andrew would have blythely continued to read the paper and allow his maid to create such turmoil in his household...
                                       
                                      By having Bridget carry the cleaver upstairs at this point you are asking us to believe that she already planned on killing Mrs. Borden, with whom she had always been on good terms with, over a trivial request to perform a simple chore...and what was Bridget plan for what to do afterwards?  Would Bridget think she could just go lay down in her room and no one would ever expect her, Bridget, of being the killer?
                                       
                                       
                                      >An apron would hide just about anything you didn't want someone to
                                      see.
                                       
                                      This argument is as relevant in arguing Lizzie as the culprit...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><4.  Lizzie didn't hear the
                                      argument going on right above her head.  Maybe Andrew did
                                      >decide to
                                      keep out of the argument going on between Bridget and Abby.
                                       
                                      I could imagine Lizzie not intervening if she heard such an argument, since she was not on good terms with her stepmother; I find it hard to believe that she would keep silent after the murders, especially after the murder of her beloved father...
                                       
                                      I can't believe Andrew would allow such turmoil to continue in his house, especially turmoil instigated by a maid...
                                       
                                       
                                      >This is probably not the first time Bridget
                                      and Abby had words.
                                       
                                      Again there is no evidence that Bridget and Abby ever argued; indeed all testimony pointed to the opposite, everyone said that Bridge and Abby got along very well...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Mr.
                                      Borden could have decided that it was Abby's problem.
                                       
                                      He may not have intervened with the first argument; I find it hard to believe that after the matter was seemingly settled (Abby insisting that windows needed to be washed at that moment, and then going upstairs to work in the guest room), that he would have just sat by and let Bridget rush upstairs to continue the argument.
                                       
                                      But then I can't see him allowing a supposed alcoholic to remain in his employ in the first place...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><5.  Andrew accepting Bridget's
                                      helping Mrs. Borden move furniture instead of going out to wash windows.
                                      >Okay.  For all he knew, maybe Abby agreed to postpone the
                                      window washing and instead, she got Bridget
                                      >to rearrange the
                                      furniture. 
                                       
                                      But Andrew would have asked, like the rest of us do, just WHY Bridget wouldn't have had a problem with moving heavy furniture indoors on a hot sticky day when she was feeling unwell, instead of doing a relatively undemanding chore of washing windows with cool water outside...
                                       
                                      AND....if Abby WAS only going to fluff pillow shams, as you stated earlier, why wouldn't Andrew have questioned why they were suddenly moving furniture around in the room?
                                       

                                      >Andrew could have cared less what the women did.
                                       
                                      This is a presumption with no evidence to support it; based on various testimonies it was shown that Andrew did indeed care what the women did, at least in some instances; and it is doubtful that he would have allowed an employee to be so disrespectful and insubordinate to her employer...
                                       

                                      ><...he also fails to notice blood on Bridget when she offers this excuse:

                                      >You cannot see the upstairs hallway
                                      from the front entrance.
                                       
                                      It was shown that one couldn't see fully into the front bedroom from the downstairs foyer, but one CAN see a good portion of the hallway.  And Andrew wouldn't have been at the front entrance, even you admit that he exited via the BACK door.  What he WOULD have done is gone to the foot of the stairs to tell Abby that he was leaving...
                                       
                                      Unless Bridget remained in the bedroom, Andrew should have noticed blood on her clothes when she came out to the upper hallway to speak to him; perhaps Andrew suffered from cataracts or glaucoma, we don't have any evidence that he DIDN'T, do we?  ;-)
                                       
                                      That would explain why he didn't see the blood on Bridget; it doesn't explain why he wouldn't have thought it odd that his wife wasn't answering him...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><...Why didn't Bridget just kill Andrew at
                                      that time?
                                      >Had Bridget tried to do so, for certain he would have noticed
                                      the blood on her. 
                                      >She could not have caught him off
                                      guard.
                                       
                                      So you DO admit that she would have had blood on her clothes; how was it then that no one on the busy street noticed when she went out the front door splattered in blood?  And how was she able to reengage the INNER lock on the front door?
                                       
                                      And if she was so easily able to catch Abby off-guard, it would have been a cinch to come after Andrew as he walked AWAY from Bridget towards the back of the house, to exit via the back door...and why wouldn't Bridget have also hacked Lizzie, who for sure would have had Bridget on the tip of her tongue as the prime suspect for the double murders...?
                                       
                                       
                                      >Lizzie was in the kitchen when her father
                                      left the house.

                                      So for sure Lizzie would have known that Bridget was upstairs with Abby, and would have known then that it was Bridget who definitely killed Abby and probably killed her father -- why would Lizzie have covered up for Bridget?  Why didn't Bridget kill Lizzie?
                                       

                                      >Lizzie then put her irons on the stoves.  It took
                                      20-25 minutes for them to heat. 
                                      >Bridget waited till she heard the
                                      irons again before she left by the FRONT door. 
                                      >Why would Lizzie
                                      question where Bridget had been all this time.  To her knowledge,
                                      >Bridget was already outside washing windows.
                                       
                                      Lizzie could have easily SEEN if Bridget was washing windows, and surely would have noticed that no one was washing windows for a good 20 to 30 minutes, she definitely would have noticed that Bridget wasn't coming back in to refill the bucket during that time, something Bridget would have had to have done at least one or two times during that time frame...
                                       
                                       
                                      ><No one on
                                      that busy street noticed a woman covered in blood and carrying a meat
                                      >cleaver, coming out the front door and going around back to the barn to
                                      wash up.
                                      >***Who pays attention to a maid? 

                                      A maid covered in blood carrying a meat cleaver, especially when two gruesome deaths by hacking with a sharp implement is reported in that household just 2 hours later?
                                       

                                      ><The Kelly maid claims to have seen Bridget washing windows and then having

                                      >engaged Bridget in a chat fest
                                      lasting a good 15 to 20 minutes.
                                      >***I never read that.
                                       
                                      It's in any number of books, including the Sourcebook you claim you're currently reading...
                                       

                                      >Bridget testified she went out to wash windows at 9:30.
                                       
                                      Where is evidence of that testimony?  Everything I've read has her going out to wash the windows immediately after having cleaned up the breakfast things; as you pointed out, Lizzie came downstairs between 8:45 and 9 and reported that everything was put away save the coffeepot; she also stated that Bridget commenced washing the windows a short time after she came downstairs, which would have had Bridget outside doing the windows well before 9:30...
                                       

                                      >If Bridget finished washing them by 10:20, then she washed those 11 windows in 35

                                      >minutes.  11:20
                                      -9:45.
                                      >She moved the ladder, pail and brush from window to window,
                                      climbed and descended
                                      >the ladder 11 times (11 minutes), and went six
                                      times for water. 
                                       
                                      WHAT ladder?  No one ever mentioned that Bridget used a ladder.  Bridget was only washing the ground floor windows, not the ones on the upper stories.  She didn't need a ladder, only a washcloth or sponge on a handle to reach the top of the ground floor windows, which she probably only gave a 'lick and a promise' type washing which would only take a minute or two per window before throwing a bucket of clean water on them to rinse them off...
                                       
                                      Taking the 15 or 20 minutes she spent chatting with the next door maid, if she started sometime between 9 and 9:15 and finished by 10:30, she spent about an hour to give a lick and a promise washing to 11 windows -- definitely do-able if she spent only a minute or two actually washing via direct hand washing or via a cloth/sponge on a pole; the majority of the time would have been taken up by having to continually go back for fresh water to rinse the windows off...I suspect that instead of splashing clear water on the washed windows that she just wiped clear water on them with her washcloth (or perhaps she had a second cloth for just such a purpose) and then utilized the rest of the water in the pail to add soap to and move on to the next window or set of windows to wash.
                                       
                                      The actual washing of the windows via such a method could have been accomplished in 15 minutes; more time would have been spent going back and forth to the barn refilling the bucket, but it definitely could have been done in less than 45 minutes...and Bridget wouldn't have had to extend any great physical energy to accomplish the chore in an hour...
                                       

                                      >You want me to believe Bridget washed 11 windows in 12 minutes when she was sick to her stomach,
                                       
                                      It was probably more like 15 minutes, but yes it is more than possible considering that the usual way for a maid to wash ground floor windows was via a cloth or a sponge on a pole to get to the top of the windows; maids did NOT climb up and down ladders to wash windows.
                                       
                                      Considering that Bridget was NOT feeling well, she probably just gave a quick wipe, a 'lick and a promise' washing; presumably the windows weren't extremely dirty to begin with and basically only needed a quick wiping.  Someone using a cloth or sponge on a pole could easily WASH 11 windows in 15 minutes or so, and if they rinsed them via the same method then that would only take another 15 minutes or so; the rest of the time would have been in travelling to and from the barn and/or kitchen to refill the bucket, but that still gives Bridget 30 minutes to do so AND still have time to chat up the next door maid...
                                       
                                       

                                      >***Lizzie
                                      said she saw Bridget come in and go upstairs BEFORE her father came home.  Time unknown.
                                       
                                      So what?  Bridget would have still been wearing the bloodstained clothes she was wearing when she supposedly murdered Mrs. Borden, and Lizzie never noticed something strange about Bridget's outfit?  Or that perhaps Bridget had another dress on when Bridget came back downstairs?
                                       
                                      Did Bridget murder Andrew wearing the same outfit she was wearing when she murdered Abby?  If so, how was she able to conceal THOSE bloodstains, plus be able to presumably change her dress in the few minutes between the murder and Lizzie discovering the body and calling Bridget downstairs?  Or did Bridget wear a 2nd outfit to murder Andrew, and if so, how was she able to successfully hide TWO sets of bloodstained dresses from the police?
                                       
                                      And again, why didn't she also kill Lizzie?
                                       

                                      >Officer Mullaly, while searching Bridget's room, said he had not moved the clothes he found on

                                      >Bridget's bed. 
                                      Mrs. Churchill thought Bridget had worn a light blue dress that morning.  Bridget
                                      >testified she wore a dark blue dress and changed into a light
                                      blue one in the afternoon.
                                       
                                      Which was a common custom in those days -- one had 'morning' dress and 'afternoon' dress, especially if one planned on leaving the house (remember that that was Bridget's afternoon off, and she was toying with the idea of going out shopping)...
                                       
                                      So Bridget wore two dresses that day; why didn't the police find blood on either one, or on the apron she supposedly wore while killing Abby?
                                       
                                       
                                      ><9.  Before going up to her room,
                                      Andrew returned but was unable to get in.
                                      >Okay. 
                                      >1. 
                                      While talking to the Kelly maid, Bridget said she heard the front door open and
                                      >close but paid no attention to it. Seeing her back was to the house, why
                                      didn't Bridget
                                      >ask Mary Doolan who came in?  Mary Doolan would have
                                      been in a position to see him or her.
                                       
                                      Perhaps not; no one knows that for sure...the corner of the house could have blocked a view of the front entrance, as would the bushes I remember seeing in pictures made of the scene.  Bridget could have very well heard something at the front door, but neither woman would necessarily been in a position from the back of the property to see who it was.
                                       
                                       
                                      >2. Lizzie said her father rang the
                                      bell.  Bridget let him in.  She came into the kitchen and told
                                      >Lizzie Mr. Borden had forgotten his key, and headed upstairs to her
                                      room.
                                       
                                      All accounts place Lizzie either ON the front stairs, or ON the upstairs front landing when her father came home; testimony has her laughing at Bridget's frustration at trying to get the door open...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Lizzie left the kitchen and joined her father
                                      in the sitting room.
                                       
                                      All accounts have Lizzie coming downstairs when her father enters the front door, and she follows him into the sitting room; she was not in the kitchen at that time, but went there AFTER talking to her father; it was at that time that Bridget said she was going to go have a lie down upstairs, and when she did so Lizzie went out to the barn...

                                       

                                      >Lizzie had also asked the women to
                                      go upstairs and look for Mrs. Borden, as she
                                      >thought she had heard her
                                      come in.
                                      >It was not her mother who came in, but Bridget.
                                       
                                      Why Bridget?  How do we now get Bridget coming IN the front door?  And if Lizzie DID hear someone enter, why couldn't it have been the same person Bridget stated she heard enter the front door while she was chatting up Mary Doolan?
                                       
                                       
                                      >In one of her efforts to account for
                                      everything, Bridget told reporters that she saw Mr.
                                      >Borden coming from
                                      across the street and raced across the lower floor to let him in,
                                       
                                      Where is THAT account?  Everything that I have ever read has Bridget consistently stating that Mr. Borden had to knock or ring the front bell to be let in, and that was the first she was aware that he had returned...
                                       

                                      >His going into the dining room was Bridget's invention, as was her having trouble

                                      >letting him in and hearing Lizzie
                                      laugh upstairs.
                                       
                                      Lizzie verified this account herself, even to her laughing at Bridget's frustration and utterance of "Pshaw!" (or more likely a stronger explective)...
                                       
                                       
                                      >>10.  ..Bridget went
                                      up to her room, Lizzie goes to the barn, Bridget comes down two flights,
                                      >>retrieves the meat cleaver and hacks Andrew to death without getting
                                      blood on herself, clean
                                      >>or hide the cleaver so that it is never
                                      found and beat it back upstairs before Lizzie returns to
                                      >>the
                                      house.  Why did Bridget not kill Andrew BEFORE he left the house?
                                      >
                                      >Sorry, but Bridget never went up to her room, as Lizzie
                                      thought she had.

                                      Irrelevant.  You still don't answer how she was able to hack Andrew to death without getting blood on herself, and then was able to either thoroughly clean the meat cleaver or hide it so that it is never found, and then go upstairs so she is in her room when Lizzie calls her...
                                       
                                       

                                      >Instead, Bridget latched the back door to
                                      prevent Morse from returning unexpectedly
                                      >and hid in the dining
                                      room.
                                       
                                      Lizzie is out at the barn, and Bridget is worrying about MORSE returning while she's killing Andrew?
                                       
                                      Why wouldn't she just kill Morse, too?  And I'm still wondering why she wouldn't kill Lizzie in your little scenario...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Bridget used his coat to
                                      protect her dress,
                                       
                                      That's the same argument that Lizzie did it...
                                       
                                       
                                      >rinsed the cleaver in the
                                      sink,
                                       
                                      Which would have taken a couple of MINUTES to get thoroughly clean, clean enough to escape detection by the police as the murder weapon...
                                       

                                      >rinsed out the rag and hug it behind the stove
                                       
                                      Which would have taken even longer than the cleaver to get all traces of blood removed...
                                       
                                       
                                      .and, seeing Lizzie in the process of latching the barn door, swung open the screen door

                                      >and
                                      ran up the first flight of stairs.  Unfortunately, Lizzie heard the cleaver scrape the wall
                                      >as she did so.
                                       
                                      But you just said that Bridget cleaned that FIRST, before cleaning the rag...so how could Lizzie hear the cleaver scrape the wall?  And why would the cleaver be scraping the wall in the first place?
                                       
                                      Lizzie stated that Bridget WAS in her room on the 3rd floor when she called her to come down, so Bridget DID go up 2 flights of stairs, not just one...
                                       
                                       
                                      >><11. 
                                      Hatchet or axe.
                                      >Already answered.
                                       
                                      Nope.  Injuries were consistent with a hatchet or axe and NOT with a meat cleaver...
                                       
                                       
                                      >I never mentioned Bridget had a drinking
                                      problem in my book.

                                      Who CARES if you did or not; it is CURRENTLY your contention that Bridget had a drinking problem and was suffering from a hangover on the day of the murders, a hangover which caused her to commit a double homocide...
                                       
                                       

                                      >My friend in New Hampshire and I,
                                      while discussing Bridget one night, reached the
                                      >same conclusion. 

                                      Good for the both of you.  It is the WRONG conclusion, tho...
                                       
                                       

                                      >Judy said she knew Bridget liked
                                      to drink.
                                       
                                      And her proof of this is....what?
                                       
                                       
                                      >I had no knowledge of that, but it didn't
                                      surprise me as Bridget said to some that she got home at 10:00
                                      >Wednesday
                                      night, and to others, it was 10:30 when she went to bed.  Women back then were expected
                                      >to be home by 9:00.
                                       
                                      And this is your PROOF that she drank?!
                                       
                                      She could have a drinking problem and still be home by 9.  BTW, your contention that women 'back then' were expected to be home by 9 is bullshit; many social functions didn't even START until 9pm...suppers held in twain with dances/balls were commonly STARTED at 10 pm, with dancing afterwards...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Lizzie said she was
                                      downstairs for about five minutes, took some clean clothes to her room,
                                      >basted a loop on one of her dresses, came back down and stayed
                                      down. 
                                       
                                      Regardless, she was still upstairs at some time while Abby's body lay cooling in the next room, and for some reason did not see the body.  If the door was closed to the guest room, who then reopened it so that Mrs. Churchill, etc. could spy Abby's body thru the open door while they were still climbing the stairs...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Her father joined
                                      her in the kitchen and she gave him a letter she had written to
                                      >Emma and
                                      he left.  She put her irons on the stove, sat down and waited for them to heat up.
                                       
                                      Whoa there!  Now you're backing up to the beginning of the morning; and this is the first that anything has been said regarding Andrew being in the kitchen...prior to this you've stated that Andrew remained in the sitting room reading the paper until he left the house, saying that Bridget remained upstairs with Abby's body while Lizzie was putzing around in the basement and/or with her irons...
                                       
                                       
                                      >Lizzie was in
                                      the kitchen when her father left the house.  She had already been upstairs and had
                                      >come back down again and stayed down.
                                       
                                      That's not what you stated before...you previously said that Lizzie was in the basement when Bridget killed Abby, and that Bridget had to wait for both Andrew to leave and Lizzie to start ironing before coming downstairs...

                                      When does Lizzie go upstairs to her room in this time frame?
                                       
                                       

                                      >By that time, Abby was already
                                      dead.  Had Lizzie entered the guest bedroom,
                                      >Bridget would have had
                                      no choice but to kill Lizzie also.
                                       
                                      Why doesn't Bridget kill Lizzie at ANY time that morning?  Why would she wait to kill Andrew when he returned, and not kill Lizzie at all?
                                       
                                      You really can't see how ridiculous your theory really is, can you?  It doesn't make any sense that Bridget would be the sole killer to begin with, especially stating that the motive was a hangover; but even more silly is saying that Bridget would also kill Andrew, waiting almost 2 hours to do so, but never consider killing Lizzie or even killing John Morse when he returned...


                                      >>Why didn't Lizzie question Bridget's half an hour's disappearance?

                                      >Lizzie knew nothing about Bridget's half
                                      hour disappearance.
                                       
                                      IT WOULD HAVE BEEN OBVIOUS!!!

                                      Bridget was supposed to be washing windows, a task that would have made her extremely visible to anyone in the house; yet you have Lizzie coming up from the cellar, talking with her father and giving him a letter and watching him leave via the back door, then putzing with the irons in the kitchen before commencing ironing in the dining room -- and oh, yes, according to you sometime in this time frame Lizzie manages to hie herself upstairs to baste a loop -- and all this time Bridget is nowhere to be seen or heard, and Lizzie doesn't notice this?
                                       
                                      If she didn't notice it at the time, one would think she would remember Bridget's absence AFTER the murders, and would have provided that information to the police...
                                       
                                       

                                      >It was between 8:52 and 9:00 that Lizzie
                                      went down to the cellar, came back up and was
                                      >in her room for about two
                                      minutes
                                       
                                      It only took Lizzie 2 minutes to baste a loop?  Wow!
                                       
                                       
                                      >June, do me a favor, let's not get started on
                                      Bridget's washing the inside windows.
                                       
                                      It was my understanding that she never claimed to have washed the inside windows....
                                       
                                       
                                      June
                                       
                                       
                                       

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