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RE: [40Whacks] Thank you, June

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  • Jeffrey Tesch
    J.T. I found the statement about Emma s conversation with Rev. Buck verrrrry interesting. I always held the notion that they spoke, and Emma stormed home and
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 23, 2003
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      J.T.
      I found the statement about Emma's conversation with Rev. Buck verrrrry
      interesting.  I always held the notion that they spoke, and Emma stormed home and threw her clothes in a suitcase like a refugee running for her life

      So it was a long considered decision.

      Patsy

       

      ***The House Emma resided in on Prospect Street from 1914-1918 was the home of the late Rev Buck.  His daughters still lived there.  Wonder how that arrangement came about, especially since Maplecroft was only a few blocks away.  It was in this house that Emma gave her only interview to the Boston Post.

       

      Rev. Buck died in March 1903 and had been in poor health for several years.  In the Post interview Emma called him “my best friend in the world, the one who advised me when matters reached such a pass that I could not stay longer in the same house with Lizzie.”  Yet it took her several years at least to make the break…

       

      JT

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    • Muriel Arnold
      Hi Patsy: I was under the impression that that interview with Emma had occurred in 1912 or 1913 where she said she still believed Lizzie to be innocent and
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 24, 2003
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        Hi Patsy:
        I was under the impression that that interview with Emma had occurred in 1912 or 1913 where she said she still believed Lizzie to be innocent and then her having spoken to Rev. Buck about Maplecroft and he told her to leave.
         
        Knowing Rev. Buck had died sometime in 1903, it looked like McHenry was up to his old tricks again.  I believe McHenry would have sold his mother's only pair of shoes in the dead of winter.  I don't know when McHenry died, but it sure wasn't soon enough.  His wife, Nellie, divorced him in 1896.
        Muriel Arnold
         
        Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
        For more information
        muriela@...
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 9:50 PM
        Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Thank you, June

         

        J.T.
        I found the statement about Emma's conversation with Rev. Buck verrrrry
        interesting.  I always held the notion that they spoke, and Emma stormed home and threw her clothes in a suitcase like a refugee running for her life

        So it was a long considered decision.

        Patsy

         

        ***The House Emma resided in on Prospect Street from 1914-1918 was the home of the late Rev Buck.  His daughters still lived there.  Wonder how that arrangement came about, especially since Maplecroft was only a few blocks away.  It was in this house that Emma gave her only interview to the Boston Post.

         

        Rev. Buck died in March 1903 and had been in poor health for several years.  In the Post interview Emma called him “my best friend in the world, the one who advised me when matters reached such a pass that I could not stay longer in the same house with Lizzie.”  Yet it took her several years at least to make the break…

         

        JT

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      • RevCOAL
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 25, 2003
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          >Emma said in her interview that she consulted Rev. Buck before making

          >her break.  Yet he died in 1903, and she didn’t leave until June
          1905. 
          >The move was evidently long considered…
          >
          >Emma
          fired Coachman Joseph Tetrault only to have Lizzie hire him back
          >in 1902
          (seems he was quite the ladies man).  This had to be a real
          >bone of
          contention…
           
          So we know that by 1902 at least Lizzie was standing up to Emma and asserting herself contrary to Emma's wishes (BTW, Jeff, on what basis do we know that Tetrault 'was quite the ladies man', and if he was what if anything did that have to do with the Borden sisters?)...
           
          This 'contrariness' of her younger sister is probably what led Emma to consult Rev. Buck; too bad we only have Emma's version of what was discussed, my guess is that her memory was selective, colored by her emotions...
           
          But as you point out, she didn't move out until 1905, so whatever 'advice' Buck gave Emma (or she believed he had said) was not only 'long considered', but one can surmise long festered...
           
           
          >Emma lived 4 blocks away
          from Lizzie on Prospect Street from 1914-1918,
          >yet there is no record of
          the sisters’ ever meeting or speaking during
          >this period of
          proximity.
           
          Common enough occurance with New Englanders; heck, when my own grandmother died leaving me and my sister as executors of her minimal estate, we found out that she had a brother living around the corner that we never knew lived there, even tho my sister and I spent a couple of weeks every summer with my grandparents when we were in elementary school, and we never suspected that we had a grand-uncle living around the corner from them.  Seems there was a major brouhaha over a relatively minor issue amongst my grandmother and her siblings in the late 1940s, leading to an irreconcilable rift with all her brothers and sisters save one, and they not only never spoke to each other again but refused to acknowledge that they even existed.

          BTW, my grandmother died in 1975, so this rift had gone on for almost 30 years...
           
           

          >Lizzie was forever involved in lawsuits
          regarding fences and walls she built
          >around Maplecroft, much to Emma’s
          dismay.  She eventually just started
          >buying up the neighboring
          lots…
           
          By 'she', do you mean Lizzie or do you mean Emma bought the lots?
           
           
          >Lizzie not only entertained Nance but appeared
          in court during Nance’s
          >litigation with her creditors.  Perhaps
          Lizzie provided more than just
          >emotional support to the
          actress…
           
          Modern sensibilities would like to read some sort of sexual connection into Lizzie and Nance's relationship, and perhaps there was...but I suspect it wasn't a lesbian love affair, rather that Lizzie found someone better suited tempermentally and intellectually to be a 'sister' than her own flesh-and-blood sibling was.  As for Nance, perhaps she felt the same about Lizzie, or perhaps she recognized an easy 'meal ticket'...
           
           
          >I could go on and on about Maplecroft, so
          I won’t.  But the permanent rift
          >between Lizzie and Emma is
          fascinating. 
           
          See my comments above; such rifts can occur for the most mundane of reasons, and the parties involved become so entrenched in their own respective positions, convinced in the 'rightness' of their own stance, that they can go on for decades vowing never to speak to whom they feel is the offending party unless the other party apologizes; of course the other party is as convinced that they themselves are right and are the injured party and is waiting for the other one to apologize, hence a standoff that is never resolved.

          BTW, that sister of mine that I mentioned above?  She and I haven't spoken to each other since 1979...   ;-)
           
           

          >I
          would like to hear from June on this one, based on side conversations
          >we’ve had on New England families…
           
          Thanks.  Hope my comments above suffice...   :-)
           
           
          June
           
           
           

           

           

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        • Muriel Arnold
          Hi gang: Would someone please enlighten me as to what BTW stands for? As for Emma and Lizzie never speaking to each other again after 1905 is nothing unusual
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 25, 2003
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            Hi gang:
            Would someone please enlighten me as to what BTW stands for?
            As for Emma and Lizzie never speaking to each other again after 1905 is nothing unusual around there.  I had an aunt in Bridgeport, Ct., that never spoke to my mother for over 50 years after an altercation. Even after she died, my mother acknowledged her as her sister, but never said another word about her, even when she herself was dying at age 89.
             
            Nance O'Neil and her troupe could very well have been the cause of Emma's leaving.
            Muriel Arnold
             
            Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
            For more information
            muriela@...
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: RevCOAL
            Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 10:31 AM
            Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Thank you, June

            >Emma said in her interview that she consulted Rev. Buck before making
            >her break.  Yet he died in 1903, and she didn’t leave until June 1905. 
            >The move was evidently long considered…
            >
            >Emma fired Coachman Joseph Tetrault only to have Lizzie hire him back
            >in 1902 (seems he was quite the ladies man).  This had to be a real
            >bone of contention…
             
            So we know that by 1902 at least Lizzie was standing up to Emma and asserting herself contrary to Emma's wishes (BTW, Jeff, on what basis do we know that Tetrault 'was quite the ladies man', and if he was what if anything did that have to do with the Borden sisters?)...
             
            This 'contrariness' of her younger sister is probably what led Emma to consult Rev. Buck; too bad we only have Emma's version of what was discussed, my guess is that her memory was selective, colored by her emotions...
             
            But as you point out, she didn't move out until 1905, so whatever 'advice' Buck gave Emma (or she believed he had said) was not only 'long considered', but one can surmise long festered...
             
             
            >Emma lived 4 blocks away from Lizzie on Prospect Street from 1914-1918,
            >yet there is no record of the sisters’ ever meeting or speaking during
            >this period of proximity.
             
            Common enough occurance with New Englanders; heck, when my own grandmother died leaving me and my sister as executors of her minimal estate, we found out that she had a brother living around the corner that we never knew lived there, even tho my sister and I spent a couple of weeks every summer with my grandparents when we were in elementary school, and we never suspected that we had a grand-uncle living around the corner from them.  Seems there was a major brouhaha over a relatively minor issue amongst my grandmother and her siblings in the late 1940s, leading to an irreconcilable rift with all her brothers and sisters save one, and they not only never spoke to each other again but refused to acknowledge that they even existed.

            BTW, my grandmother died in 1975, so this rift had gone on for almost 30 years...
             
             
            >Lizzie was forever involved in lawsuits regarding fences and walls she built
            >around Maplecroft, much to Emma’s dismay.  She eventually just started
            >buying up the neighboring lots…
             
            By 'she', do you mean Lizzie or do you mean Emma bought the lots?
             
             
            >Lizzie not only entertained Nance but appeared in court during Nance’s
            >litigation with her creditors.  Perhaps Lizzie provided more than just
            >emotional support to the actress…
             
            Modern sensibilities would like to read some sort of sexual connection into Lizzie and Nance's relationship, and perhaps there was...but I suspect it wasn't a lesbian love affair, rather that Lizzie found someone better suited tempermentally and intellectually to be a 'sister' than her own flesh-and-blood sibling was.  As for Nance, perhaps she felt the same about Lizzie, or perhaps she recognized an easy 'meal ticket'...
             
             
            >I could go on and on about Maplecroft, so I won’t.  But the permanent rift
            >between Lizzie and Emma is fascinating. 
             
            See my comments above; such rifts can occur for the most mundane of reasons, and the parties involved become so entrenched in their own respective positions, convinced in the 'rightness' of their own stance, that they can go on for decades vowing never to speak to whom they feel is the offending party unless the other party apologizes; of course the other party is as convinced that they themselves are right and are the injured party and is waiting for the other one to apologize, hence a standoff that is never resolved.

            BTW, that sister of mine that I mentioned above?  She and I haven't spoken to each other since 1979...   ;-)
             
             
            >I would like to hear from June on this one, based on side conversations
            >we’ve had on New England families…
             
            Thanks.  Hope my comments above suffice...   :-)
             
             
            June
             
             
             

             

             

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          • PatriciaLu@aol.com
            In a message dated 1/25/2003 2:26:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... BTW stands for by the way Pat
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 25, 2003
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              In a message dated 1/25/2003 2:26:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, muriela@... writes:


              Would someone please enlighten me as to what BTW stands for?



              BTW stands for 'by the way'

              Pat
            • Jeffrey Tesch
              June wrote: So we know that by 1902 at least Lizzie was standing up to Emma and asserting herself contrary to Emma s wishes (BTW, Jeff, on what basis do we
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 25, 2003
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                June wrote:

                So we know that by 1902 at least Lizzie was standing up to Emma and asserting herself contrary to Emma's wishes (BTW, Jeff, on what basis do we know that Tetrault 'was quite the ladies man', and if he was what if anything did that have to do with the Borden sisters?)...
                 

                ***several papers commented on this after Emma left, including the Boston Herald, calling Tetrault “a fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies…Miss Emma is said to have found offense in his comfortable preferment” (whatever that is).  Tetrault was dismissed, but “after a time, the talk subsided” and Lizzie hired him back.


                 
                 

                >Lizzie was forever involved in lawsuits regarding fences and walls she
                class=GramE>built
                >around Maplecroft, much to Emma’s dismay.  She eventually
                just started
                >buying up the neighboring lots…
                 
                By 'she', do you mean Lizzie or do you mean Emma bought the lots?

                ***Lizzie.  She bought the two lots to the right of Maplecroft, tore down the houses and built her $3000 garage in her new side yard.  Bought two lots across the street as well…

                >I would like to hear from June on this one, based on side conversations

                >we’ve had on
                New England families…
                 
                Thanks.  Hope my comments above suffice...   :-)

                ***yes!  Excellent perspective on the sisters’ estrangement, which remains the major puzzle of the Maplecroft period.


                 
                 
                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

                 

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              • Autumn
                Muriel, BTW stands for by the way . I also know about family feuds where members have nothing to do with each other. My mother and her sister had a falling
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 25, 2003
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                  Muriel,

                  BTW stands for "by the way".

                  I also know about family feuds where members have
                  nothing to do with each other. My mother and her
                  sister had a falling out in 1970 and till the day she
                  died in 1998 my mother never spoke to her sister
                  again. To this day my aunt doesn't even know my mother
                  died, my mother made us promise not to tell her
                  sister.

                  Autumn





                  <muriela@...> wrote:
                  > Hi gang:
                  > Would someone please enlighten me as to what BTW
                  > stands for?
                  > As for Emma and Lizzie never speaking to each other
                  > again after 1905 is nothing unusual around there. I
                  > had an aunt in Bridgeport, Ct., that never spoke to
                  > my mother for over 50 years after an altercation.
                  > Even after she died, my mother acknowledged her as
                  > her sister, but never said another word about her,
                  > even when she herself was dying at age 89.
                  >
                  > Nance O'Neil and her troupe could very well have
                  > been the cause of Emma's leaving.
                  > Muriel Arnold


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                • RevCOAL
                  ... In that era that phrase could refer to a gamut of possible activities ranging from sharing afternoon tea between employer and employee all the way to
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 26, 2003
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                    >
                    >several papers commented on this after Emma left, including the Boston Herald, calling Tetrault
                    >“a
                    fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies…Miss Emma is
                    >said to have found offense in his comfortable
                    preferment” (whatever that is). 
                     
                    In that era that phrase could refer to a gamut of possible activities ranging from sharing afternoon tea between employer and employee all the way to sharing bed/body; my guess is that whatever Emma objected to was more akin to the former activity than to the latter, I just don't see the 20-something Tetrault having a passionate love affair with his 40-something year old employer...
                     
                    But I CAN see Lizzie treating Tetrault as an equal, perhaps as a son or brother, and allowing him 'familiarities' such as perhaps sitting down with him and enjoying a cup of coffee or tea together, which "what would people think" Emma would have found objectionable.  Lizzie perhaps allowed Tetrault to speak to her in a 'familiar' manner, which he may have mistakenly also applied to Emma, who would have been highly offended to have the hired help treating her in what she would have interpreted as a disrespectful manner.  That in and of itself could have been enough for her to dismiss him, and that in and of itself could have been something Lizzie thought a slight matter, definitely not worth dismissing someone over especially if that employee otherwise performed his duties well.
                     
                    My guess is that Lizzie was the one who got chauffered about by Tetrault much more than Emma did (something tells me that Emma rarely went out, and if she did she probably forsook travel by 'the machine' in favor of the more familiar trolly or horse-drawn carriage); Lizzie probably liked the 'familiarity' of Tetrault's mannerisms and speech to her, while Emma would have been highly incensed by it.
                     
                    Being "popular among the ladies" is not really the same thing as being "a ladies man"; the former implies that he was probably fairly glib of tongue and quite a 'flirt', the latter implies that he was an actual playboy toying with the affections of many ladies at once.  My guess is that he indeed was 'popular among the ladies' but probably not quite 'the ladies man' that Jeff describes, which would have been difficult for Tetrault to manage on a chauffeur's salary...
                     
                    >Tetrault was dismissed, but “after a time, the talk subsided” and Lizzie hired him back.
                     
                    Something tells me that Emma had a tendency to see 'dirt' where there was none; considering her age and the era that she lived in, Tetrault reading a sonnet to Lizzie from a tome of Elizabeth Barrett Browning verses over a mutually shared afternoon tea in the front parlor would have been as shocking as discovering Tetrault and Lizzie in a passionate embrace; to someone of Emma's sensibilities, the former activity would have been considered as much 'making love' as the former...
                     
                     
                    > Excellent perspective on the
                    sisters’ estrangement, which remains the major puzzle of the Maplecroft period.
                     
                    It's only a 'major puzzle' to someone who obviously hasn't experienced the phenomenon in their own family...  ;-)
                    As I mentioned in my prior post, I know from first-hand experience how such familial estrangements can occur, often over the most trivial of matters; my guess is that Emma had been feeling 'wronged' for years, maybe even before 1892, and by 1905 she definitely was feeling ignored and unappreciated.  Whatever led to her finally physically leaving the premises, it was probably the culmination of what she considered 'insults', for which she expected Lizzie to apologize.  Lizzie for her part probably felt that Emma owed HER an apology, and hence the stalemate that persisted until both of their deaths...
                     
                     
                    June
                     
                     
                     

                     
                     
                     
                     
                     

                     

                     
                     

                     
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                  • Muriel Arnold
                    Hi June: Your explanation for the possible reason Emma left Maplecroft sounds more acceptable than accusing Lizzie and Nance O Neil having an affair. Lizzie s
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 26, 2003
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                      Hi June:
                      Your explanation for the possible reason Emma left Maplecroft sounds more acceptable than accusing Lizzie and Nance O'Neil having an affair.  Lizzie's accepting people for what they were and considering them her equal would be something Lizzie was capable doing.  Class distinction meant a lot to Emma at that time, but to Lizzie, her employees were also her friends.  As for them, Lizzie was someone they could talk to without being put in their place.  Good job June.
                      Muriel Arnold
                       
                      Author of  Lizzie Borden Hands of Time
                      For more information
                      muriela@...
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: RevCOAL
                      Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:27 AM
                      Subject: RE: [40Whacks] Thank you, June

                      >several papers commented on this after Emma left, including the Boston Herald, calling Tetrault
                      >“a fine looking young man and reported to be very popular among the ladies…Miss Emma is
                      >said to have found offense in his comfortable preferment” (whatever that is). 
                       
                      In that era that phrase could refer to a gamut of possible activities ranging from sharing afternoon tea between employer and employee all the way to sharing bed/body; my guess is that whatever Emma objected to was more akin to the former activity than to the latter, I just don't see the 20-something Tetrault having a passionate love affair with his 40-something year old employer...
                       
                      But I CAN see Lizzie treating Tetrault as an equal, perhaps as a son or brother, and allowing him 'familiarities' such as perhaps sitting down with him and enjoying a cup of coffee or tea together, which "what would people think" Emma would have found objectionable.  Lizzie perhaps allowed Tetrault to speak to her in a 'familiar' manner, which he may have mistakenly also applied to Emma, who would have been highly offended to have the hired help treating her in what she would have interpreted as a disrespectful manner.  That in and of itself could have been enough for her to dismiss him, and that in and of itself could have been something Lizzie thought a slight matter, definitely not worth dismissing someone over especially if that employee otherwise performed his duties well.
                       
                      My guess is that Lizzie was the one who got chauffered about by Tetrault much more than Emma did (something tells me that Emma rarely went out, and if she did she probably forsook travel by 'the machine' in favor of the more familiar trolly or horse-drawn carriage); Lizzie probably liked the 'familiarity' of Tetrault's mannerisms and speech to her, while Emma would have been highly incensed by it.
                       
                      Being "popular among the ladies" is not really the same thing as being "a ladies man"; the former implies that he was probably fairly glib of tongue and quite a 'flirt', the latter implies that he was an actual playboy toying with the affections of many ladies at once.  My guess is that he indeed was 'popular among the ladies' but probably not quite 'the ladies man' that Jeff describes, which would have been difficult for Tetrault to manage on a chauffeur's salary...
                       
                      >Tetrault was dismissed, but “after a time, the talk subsided” and Lizzie hired him back.
                       
                      Something tells me that Emma had a tendency to see 'dirt' where there was none; considering her age and the era that she lived in, Tetrault reading a sonnet to Lizzie from a tome of Elizabeth Barrett Browning verses over a mutually shared afternoon tea in the front parlor would have been as shocking as discovering Tetrault and Lizzie in a passionate embrace; to someone of Emma's sensibilities, the former activity would have been considered as much 'making love' as the former...
                       
                       
                      > Excellent perspective on the sisters’ estrangement, which remains the major puzzle of the Maplecroft period.
                       
                      It's only a 'major puzzle' to someone who obviously hasn't experienced the phenomenon in their own family...  ;-)
                      As I mentioned in my prior post, I know from first-hand experience how such familial estrangements can occur, often over the most trivial of matters; my guess is that Emma had been feeling 'wronged' for years, maybe even before 1892, and by 1905 she definitely was feeling ignored and unappreciated.  Whatever led to her finally physically leaving the premises, it was probably the culmination of what she considered 'insults', for which she expected Lizzie to apologize.  Lizzie for her part probably felt that Emma owed HER an apology, and hence the stalemate that persisted until both of their deaths...
                       
                       
                      June
                       
                       
                       

                       
                       
                       
                       
                       

                       

                       
                       

                       
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