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Re: [30MDG] Use WSPR propagation

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  • G8SQH
    John I have my Softrock running all the time, and I can see all the data part of the band. Whilst we have 50 kHz, less than 4 is actively used for
    Message 1 of 9 , Aug 1, 2011
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      John

      I have my Softrock running all the time, and I can see all the data part of the band.

      Whilst we have 50 kHz, less than 4 is actively used for conversational data (compare the 40 available for CW....) If you are outside 10140 to 10143.5 KHz, then you would be where <2% of my QSOs have ever occurred. Spots can help, but many of the spotters only report the radio carrier frequency, leaving the reader to search for the real signal.

      The main point is that it's MUCH harder to 'tune in' to a non-PSK signal. PSK has a defined width, and very distinct start/end tones. Bar the rare QPSK you can eyeball it instantly.

      In fldigi we have the signal browser, which will decode all the PSK (or RTTY) signals at once, but NOT for any other modes. Other modes have to be tuned 'by hand'


      If I see a faint signal about say 250 Hz wide, then it's a race to try all the options before the CQ ends. If I haven't got a good sight of the TX start, then I need to try:

      MFSK16
      Contestia 8/250
      Olivia 8/250

      Now I have instant replay in fldigi, so I am going as fast as I can. Look more closely - is the signal a bit too wide? OK, try the 16/250 variant for Olivia and Contestia. A tiny bit narrow - try 4/250. Really do need to see the two start tones for this

      Still no decode (and remember the Olivia decoder takes a few seconds to decode the last 2 minutes stored audio)? Now try domino 8 and 16, and thor 8 and 16.

      OK, this is a hard one - you still have to try LSB on the freq sensitive modes. Now wait and hope for another TX.. The first seconds are critical - Thor has a distinct sawtooth pattern for example.


      So, if you want to try for non-PSK modes (and these are all a deal better for weak signals), you will need to call many times, and please several repeats in each call. I run one Watt QRP, so I never call CQ - no point. When I'm in the shack I do look for faint signals in the waterfall, but they take time to decode. Also remember that Contestia etc will work on an invisible signal, so I can only spot the weakest signals when they happen to peak out of the noise. I've had several DX contacts that way - a few lucky seconds enhancement gets you a good estimate of frequency and width, then a frantic minute trying combinations until you get lock.

      Someone will suggest RSID - which can help a bit, but it's rarely used, and I'm not sure it works for the faintest signals.

      I'd be delighted to work VK again, with any luck the propagation will appear again early in September (got VK3XQ last April and Sept, both long path in the morning UK time. Path appeared for a few days in a row, then gone for months)

      30m really reminds me of 6m - DX signals appear occasionally, and typically only for a few minutes. Perhaps we need the equivalent of 50.110 - a frequency for inter-continental calls only. Really we'd need one for each non-PSK mode, and this just doesn't fit into the 10 KHz available.

      So, perhaps the best is to use the 30mdg section on hamspots - here you can leave a message concerning your CQ (including exact mode please!), and it will typically last several days. If I see a VK there, I will always look at the waterfall. Hope to hear you one day

      73

      --David G8SQH


      On Sun, 31 Jul 2011 13:31:18 -0000
      "John M" <vk2fak@...> wrote:

      > Hi All...
      >
      >
      > I have been reading the thread about trying to use wspr to organize another mode contact....
      >
      > So in light of that...I was listening to WSPR this evening and getting some good signals from the US, they were also getting me strong. I made contact with another US station using JT65....both ways it was good S/N..
      >
      > So tried Olivia up the band a little...got nothing.
      >
      > I even reported Myself so I could get a Flag up on PSKreporter showing I was on Olivia , still nothing ...I looked at the monitoring stations in the US and all were on JT65....
      >
      > So my point is very basic, what is the use of knowing that there is Propagation between countries...If there is nobody listening on QSO modes, besides those on WSPR that determined the good propagation in the first place.
      >
      > So something equally simple like, say on the Hour (UTC) go to a freq (example; 10.142 Olivia..10.143 PSK ) and put out a few calls...or listen for any calls if nothing is heard after say 10 mins or so...go back to WSPR...do it again on the next hour....or half hour for that matter.
      >
      > John
      >
      >
      >


      --
      <djch-yahoo@...>
    • John M
      Hi all... David... Interesting to see your comments regarding RSID, It has worked great for me when I see it using FLDigi.....the RSID as far as I know has
      Message 2 of 9 , Aug 1, 2011
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        Hi all...

        David...

        Interesting to see your comments regarding RSID, It has worked great for me when I see it using FLDigi.....the RSID as far as I know has way better S/N than most of the digital modes at around -25db...so for me has worked on signals I can hardly see..

        I just think we should be making better use of WSPR considering the Numbers of people using it...

        If most are using software base RX...then they should be putting out calls in the appropriate part of the band as soon as they see propagation improving...but that never seems to be happening..

        Some seem to forget....WSPR is not ham radio....its an aid to ham radio....we should use it as such.

        John
      • k0idt
        Maybe I m missing something here but are you suggesting one way WSPR should be a valid contact? If so I can let my computer and rig work DXCC while I m doing
        Message 3 of 9 , Aug 2, 2011
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          Maybe I'm missing something here but are you suggesting one way
          WSPR should be a valid contact? If so I can let my computer and
          rig work DXCC while I'm doing other things in the shack....a control
          operator is present in this case.

          Ron
          K0IDT

          --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "kd8dvy@..." <lilhawk236@...> wrote:
          >
          > That is exactly my point about making WSPR a valid 30m contact only. As John just pointed out he was seeing calls on WSPR and tried to make contact on other modes and the only mode that worked was JT65, no other digital mode.
          >
          > So if we pushed to make WSPR a valid contact then we would have more 30m digital contacts, and more activity on 30m. If my memory serves me correctly you are not to leave your rig TXing without you being present while operating on 30m. (part 97, possible interference issues).
          >
          > As my last comment of this reply I can say that this is the most discussion about this mode I have seen on the net or in any group.
          >
          > That is why I love this hobby, polite and considerate of others thoughts. A whole diverse world and common sense. And they say it can't be done (HI HI).
          >
          > Harold/KD8DVY
          >
        • k0idt
          The problem with lack of contacts on 30 meter digital modes is the same problem that exists on 6 meters. Everyone is listening and no one is calling or not
          Message 4 of 9 , Aug 2, 2011
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            The problem with lack of contacts on 30 meter digital modes is
            the same problem that exists on 6 meters. Everyone is listening and
            no one is calling or not REALLY calling. I have seen a station call
            CQ 2 or 3 times in one mode and after no response try a different
            mode on the same frequency or just give up.....not helpful if you
            want me to call. The band may be open but unless someone is listening
            for your mode of choice or you call long enough for the other station
            to decide your mode and switch his software you're not going to have
            much luck.

            RSID/TXID is a help and a short CQ repeated often is better than a
            long one, think contest spacing and run for more than 3 passes.
            Operators without a panadapter will take time to find you and get
            things right on their end. JT65 is up but nothing else? Work a JT
            station and see if they'll go to another mode. Post your mode and
            QRG on Hamspots or K3UK sked pages. A final suggestion would be the
            ability of WSPR to append some bit of information like O+5....or
            I'm listening up 5khz for Olivia. The last may be a subject for the
            WSPR list and I may put it up there.

            A quick check on the Hamspots Digital Modes and 30m pages show that
            like other bands PSK31 leads the number of spots with JT65, RTTY and
            CW trailing....very few Olivia or other modes. It's a pity that
            everyone has a VFO stuck on 20m PSK31 :)

            Ron
            K0IDT




            --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "John M" <vk2fak@...> wrote:
            >
            > HI all..
            >
            > Again I am not sure if my point has not been followed...
            >
            > First I have no intention to use WSPR as a QSO mode...
            >
            > I just say use it as it was designed, to determine the propagation..
            >
            > My JT65 contact example was to show that signals on other modes were getting through with good S/N.
            >
            > The problem was...everyone that seemed to be listening at the time, were only listening on WSPR, so seemed pointless to even attempt to make a contact on another QSO mode...
            >
            > As a propagation tool WSPR does ok...On Sat evening the time I thought there should be propagation to the US, was not actually there...I left the radio on to see what happened and surprise surprise.about 2hrs later signals picked up...
            >
            > But unless people then try to make a contact on another mode...what really is the point of WSPR...thats why my suggestion of a frequency to listen to, away from WSPR with a fixed time to check....
            >
            > Similar idea to WSPR but expand that 2min start time to say 30mins at least....If you can't make a contact...go back and check WSPR again for another 30mins min. (enough time to get a few WSPR signals )
            >
            > You could simply send calls out on the hour, but unless you know there is propagation at that time.....its possibly just wasted time.
            >
            > John
            >
          • Don
            Harold kd8dvy, Ron K0IDT and all, Good discussion and sorry I have been out of the loop here a couple months so catching up. Harold you think like me but I m
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 1, 2011
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              Harold kd8dvy, Ron K0IDT and all,

              Good discussion and sorry I have been out of the loop here a couple months so catching up.

              Harold you think like me but I'm afraid others don't think the same hi...I already tried to do what you would like to see or try but so far ZERO participation in WSPR contacts so I stopped trying. The action is on JT65 so fire it up on JT65 as it is the best next thing and there is at least some JT65 30m contacts to be made (just because the WSPR path is open doesn't mean that same path is open for other digital modes like PSK...can be nada on that mode when WSPR is reporting).

              Ron you hit on a subject that was discussed by the 30MDG Managers and due to the misunderstanding we think by some on WSPR we have come to the conclusion that as far as U30 (Ultimate 30 for 30MDG Awards) goes we will no longer have WSPR as a mode since 99.9% of the WSPR in someones log would be what we would call 'WSPR Propagation Reporting' reporting which like you said is not a valid contact but just a propagation tool and report...very very small percentage of what we would call 'WSPR QSO' logging a true QSO (don't see many of those). We can not verify each WSPR entry to know the difference between if it was a true WSPR QSO or just WSPR Propagation Reporting... again since most all are not using WSPR as a true contact mode U30 will no longer allow it.

              Personally I think WSPR is a very neat weak signal mode and I wish like Harold I could have had a few WSPR Contacts or experiment with it more (not propgation reporting) but I have found no activty for these WSPR QSO contacts....so JT65 is next best at the moment with some good activity on 30m (we sure could use more JT65 in my view but all in all we do have JT65 acitivty on 30m which is good to see).

              Don KB9UMT 30mdg#0001
              www.30mdg.net


              --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "k0idt" <K0IDT@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Maybe I'm missing something here but are you suggesting one way
              > WSPR should be a valid contact? If so I can let my computer and
              > rig work DXCC while I'm doing other things in the shack....a control
              > operator is present in this case.
              >
              > Ron
              > K0IDT
              >
              > --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "kd8dvy@" <lilhawk236@> wrote:
              > >
              > > That is exactly my point about making WSPR a valid 30m contact only. As John just pointed out he was seeing calls on WSPR and tried to make contact on other modes and the only mode that worked was JT65, no other digital mode.
              > >
              > > So if we pushed to make WSPR a valid contact then we would have more 30m digital contacts, and more activity on 30m. If my memory serves me correctly you are not to leave your rig TXing without you being present while operating on 30m. (part 97, possible interference issues).
              > >
              > > As my last comment of this reply I can say that this is the most discussion about this mode I have seen on the net or in any group.
              > >
              > > That is why I love this hobby, polite and considerate of others thoughts. A whole diverse world and common sense. And they say it can't be done (HI HI).
              > >
              > > Harold/KD8DVY
              > >
              >
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