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AW: [30MDG] Capital letters and so on

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  • Siegfried Jackstien
    You can not be angry and surf the net ... oh yes I can ... my wife (or lucky only my girlieas we are not married) left home on Saturday .... threw 3 years away
    Message 1 of 18 , May 9, 2011
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      You can not be angry and surf the net ... oh yes I can ... my wife (or lucky
      only my girlieas we are not married) left home on Saturday .... threw 3
      years away ... yes I am angry ... and yes I do my emailwork now ... so guess
      the rukle is not true

      > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
      > Von: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
      > Phil Williams
      > Gesendet: Montag, 9. Mai 2011 21:29
      > An: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
      > Betreff: Re: [30MDG] Capital letters and so on
      >
      >
      >
      > Fred,
      >
      > A couple of answers come to mind. Not of which are really good. In fact,
      > none of my answers are good, but I feel obligated to set expectations - no
      > matter how low they are.
      >
      >
      > Lower case has a slight throughput enhancement due the vari-code. Lower
      > case letters have a shorter bit length in comparison their upper case
      > cousins. This argument has many holes in it. Since BPSK31 it is a
      > keyboard-to-keyboard mode, do we really need to worry about throughput?
      > BPSK31 is not the most robust mode on the planet, so maybe some protocol
      > is needed in order to improve the copy, I think there is a clear need for
      > call signs and Q signals to be in upper case.
      >
      > Internet habits? Yes. Lower case is stylish and noncommittal, while
      > upper case implies you are yelling and yelling implies anger and I guess
      > there is some special rule that says you can't be angry and surf the
      > Internet at the same time. The upper-case rule does not have the same
      > effect with radio operators - especially for RTTY operators. After all,
      > just take at look at any RTTY pile-up...everyone IS yelling, so why not
      > use a character style that embraces the mood of the moment.
      >
      > Laziness. Yes. People are lazy. I don't know why they are, but I think
      > it has to do with the fact that the "Shift" key is only second to the
      > "Space" key in size and I suspect it "appears" to be harder to push in
      > comparison to those little letters and figures keys. This argument has
      > problems with the the "Space" key as this key is the titan of the
      > keyboard. I think the incentive for people to use the "Space" key is that
      > if you don't use the Space key, then you end up confusing or frightening
      > people as all of your words will run together. I would suggest
      > capitalizing the beginning letter of each word as some of form of a
      > delimiter, but as I have already point out, the "Shift" key, due to its
      > immense size, appears to be harder to push and people are lazy, so there
      > you go.
      >
      > philw de ka1gmn
      >
      >
      > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 9:33 AM, dl6xaz <dl6xaz@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi all,
      > is it that I am a grumpy old nitpicker? Reason: I have been taught
      > nearly half a century ago that callsigns are always, and I mean: always,
      > written or printed in capital letters, to stand out from message text. In
      > the service we also had to proceed that way with traffic abbreviations, Q
      > and Z groups, geographic names and the like. In rtty it didn't make a
      > difference as our machines printed capitals only anyway.
      > Ok, we are a civil ham community, so we can take it more esay-
      > handed.
      > But why I moan is that I see scores of especially EA, IZ and RA
      > stations who call cq and send everything in small letters. This is often
      > hard to distinguish from the usual idle screen gibberish and other garbage
      > coming up. Maybe they haven't been told to write their calls in capital
      > letters, or it is just laziness, or deriving from internet habits.
      > Or is it just lack of proper operating knowledge?
      > Then: me calling CQ in bpsk31, comes an IZ station with a 599 signal
      > asking verbatim " dl6 station pse copy de iz..."
      > Now there is me asking, are we doing CB or what? Guess what: I
      > ignored him, as simple as that. I gladly assist newcomers in getting a
      > solid QSO into their logs in any possible mode; such lack of proper
      > operating procedure however exceeded my usual great patience. I think I
      > can expect a minimum compliance with operating rules.
      > Or am I wrong?
      > Stepping down from soapbox. Next one. Btw Paul G0UZP: don't come
      > with the habitual fuddy-duddy ! :-0)
      > vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Philw de KA1GMN
      >
      >
      >
    • Wes Linscott
      I tend to use CAPS on PSK31 just as is automatically done on RTTY. Having been a USN Radioman, I grew accustomed to seeing everything in upper case. It is
      Message 2 of 18 , May 9, 2011
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        I tend to use CAPS on PSK31 just as is automatically done on RTTY.
        Having been a USN Radioman, I grew accustomed to seeing everything in
        upper case. It is just a matter of preference. Some may be lazy, but
        I've also observed that some on the other extreme are very
        obsessive-compulsive at times. Fred speaks of "proper operating
        knowledge", and he also stated, "I think I can expect a minimum
        compliance with operating rules." Exactly where and what are these
        "rules"? Who determines what is "proper"? This hobby is something I do
        for fun, and I guess we all can say that. If it isn't fun for you, then
        maybe you should find something else that is. Personally, I enjoy it
        and really don't care what case the other "guy" transmits. Hey, we all
        have our own opinions.

        wes w1lic :-)

        On 5/9/2011 5:29 PM, Phil Williams wrote:
        >
        > Fred,
        >
        >
        > A couple of answers come to mind. Not of which are really good. In
        > fact, none of my answers are good, but I feel obligated to set
        > expectations - no matter how low they are.
        >
        > Lower case has a slight throughput enhancement due the vari-code.
        > Lower case letters have a shorter bit length in comparison their
        > upper case cousins. This argument has many holes in it. Since BPSK31
        > it is a keyboard-to-keyboard mode, do we really need to worry about
        > throughput? BPSK31 is not the most robust mode on the planet, so
        > maybe some protocol is needed in order to improve the copy, I think
        > there is a clear need for call signs and Q signals to be in upper case.
        >
        > Internet habits? Yes. Lower case is stylish and noncommittal, while
        > upper case implies you are yelling and yelling implies anger and I
        > guess there is some special rule that says you can't be angry and surf
        > the Internet at the same time. The upper-case rule does not have the
        > same effect with radio operators - especially for RTTY operators.
        > After all, just take at look at any RTTY pile-up...everyone IS
        > yelling, so why not use a character style that embraces the mood of
        > the moment.
        >
        > Laziness. Yes. People are lazy. I don't know why they are, but I
        > think it has to do with the fact that the "Shift" key is only second
        > to the "Space" key in size and I suspect it "appears" to be harder to
        > push in comparison to those little letters and figures keys. This
        > argument has problems with the the "Space" key as this key is the
        > titan of the keyboard. I think the incentive for people to use the
        > "Space" key is that if you don't use the Space key, then you end up
        > confusing or frightening people as all of your words will run
        > together. I would suggest capitalizing the beginning letter of each
        > word as some of form of a delimiter, but as I have already point out,
        > the "Shift" key, due to its immense size, appears to be harder to push
        > and people are lazy, so there you go.
        >
        > philw de ka1gmn
        >
        > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 9:33 AM, dl6xaz <dl6xaz@...
        > <mailto:dl6xaz@...>> wrote:
        >
        > Hi all,
        > is it that I am a grumpy old nitpicker? Reason: I have been taught
        > nearly half a century ago that callsigns are always, and I mean:
        > always, written or printed in capital letters, to stand out from
        > message text. In the service we also had to proceed that way with
        > traffic abbreviations, Q and Z groups, geographic names and the
        > like. In rtty it didn't make a difference as our machines printed
        > capitals only anyway.
        > Ok, we are a civil ham community, so we can take it more esay-handed.
        > But why I moan is that I see scores of especially EA, IZ and RA
        > stations who call cq and send everything in small letters. This is
        > often hard to distinguish from the usual idle screen gibberish and
        > other garbage coming up. Maybe they haven't been told to write
        > their calls in capital letters, or it is just laziness, or
        > deriving from internet habits.
        > Or is it just lack of proper operating knowledge?
        > Then: me calling CQ in bpsk31, comes an IZ station with a 599
        > signal asking verbatim " dl6 station pse copy de iz..."
        > Now there is me asking, are we doing CB or what? Guess what: I
        > ignored him, as simple as that. I gladly assist newcomers in
        > getting a solid QSO into their logs in any possible mode; such
        > lack of proper operating procedure however exceeded my usual great
        > patience. I think I can expect a minimum compliance with operating
        > rules.
        > Or am I wrong?
        > Stepping down from soapbox. Next one. Btw Paul G0UZP: don't come
        > with the habitual fuddy-duddy ! :-0)
        > vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --
        > Philw de KA1GMN
        >
      • Dave Rozzana
        Hi Fred, You make a good point, but not necessarily for the right reason, imho. Small case letters will come through the conditions easier than capital
        Message 3 of 18 , May 9, 2011
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          Hi Fred,
           
          You make a good point, but not necessarily for the right reason, imho.
          Small case letters will come through the conditions easier than capital letters, as I understand there is less information to transmit. In my mind, that’s why folks do it....that and laziness, frankly. So what?
          All upper case is shouting and we all hate that, so we leave the shift key unattended.
           
          My real problem is that whenever there is static printing on the screen, it’s ‘always’ in lower case, so someone who is sending lower case text has to compete with the QRN, et. al. This, I find intolerable, so will never send my call in lower case as it may be easily confused with garbage copy. I think I’ve been picked out of pile-ups because the other guy is sending in lower case. Now, I have no scientific data to buttress my position on that, as we’re dealing with the quality of copy at the receiving end, but I think it makes sense. Really....how many upper case characters do you see in a screen of garbage copy? The reality is, at lease IMHO, that when we see lower case calls we instinctively think we got some of it wrong. Is it really the call or is it garbage? Only the QRN gods know for sure.
           
          Dave, n6pz
           
          the devil made me do it.  Winking smile
           
           
          From: dl6xaz
          Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 7:33 AM
          Subject: [30MDG] Capital letters and so on
           
           

          Hi all,
          is it that I am a grumpy old nitpicker? Reason: I have been taught nearly half a century ago that callsigns are always, and I mean: always, written or printed in capital letters, to stand out from message text. In the service we also had to proceed that way with traffic abbreviations, Q and Z groups, geographic names and the like. In rtty it didn't make a difference as our machines printed capitals only anyway.
          Ok, we are a civil ham community, so we can take it more esay-handed.
          But why I moan is that I see scores of especially EA, IZ and RA stations who call cq and send everything in small letters. This is often hard to distinguish from the usual idle screen gibberish and other garbage coming up. Maybe they haven't been told to write their calls in capital letters, or it is just laziness, or deriving from internet habits.
          Or is it just lack of proper operating knowledge?
          Then: me calling CQ in bpsk31, comes an IZ station with a 599 signal asking verbatim " dl6 station pse copy de iz..."
          Now there is me asking, are we doing CB or what? Guess what: I ignored him, as simple as that. I gladly assist newcomers in getting a solid QSO into their logs in any possible mode; such lack of proper operating procedure however exceeded my usual great patience. I think I can expect a minimum compliance with operating rules.
          Or am I wrong?
          Stepping down from soapbox. Next one. Btw Paul G0UZP: don't come with the habitual fuddy-duddy ! :-0)
          vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

        • dl6xaz
          Hi folks, thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest. Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the varicode transmits
          Message 4 of 18 , May 9, 2011
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            Hi folks,
            thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest.
            Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the varicode transmits the text faster in lower case but more subject to QRN. Yet as rightly stated, who cares as we are under no time pressure, and if we want doing things quicker, change to higher speed and do the boring macro exchanges.
            As for "shouting", this is apparently something interpreted from internet habits; everybody may interprete it in his/her own way; I don't care if I get emails in capitals or lower case and don't feel yelled at. Until we got the soundcard modes with the varicode it was all capitals anyway in RTTY and AMTOR/Pactor1.
            Laziness: yes, most likely. And those free from sin may throw the first stone, me included. Possibly also due to many not having learned to write with ten fingers blindly as I do (admitting that the back-key is a blessing and that my fingers are often faster than my grey cells).
            Summarizing: of course what I moaned about is my personal position, and even for being looked at as kind of fossile of education I dislike that certain styles in communicating with each other are watered down. That said, I stick to my preference in seeing callsigns and Q-groups in capitals at least.
            Many thanks again for your input!
            vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
          • Ian Wade G3NRW
            From: dl6xaz Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 Time: 14:33:20 ... fred for many, many years now it has been generally accepted that lower case
            Message 5 of 18 , May 10, 2011
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              From: dl6xaz <dl6xaz@...>
              Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 Time: 14:33:20

              >Hi all,
              >is it that I am a grumpy old nitpicker? Reason: I have been taught
              >nearly half a century ago that callsigns are always, and I mean:
              >always, written or printed in capital letters, to stand out from
              >message text. In the service we also had to proceed that way with
              >traffic abbreviations, Q and Z groups, geographic names and the like.
              >In rtty it didn't make a difference as our machines printed capitals
              >only anyway.


              fred

              for many, many years now it has been generally accepted that lower case
              highway signs are more quickly interpreted than upper case signs:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FHWA_Series_fonts

              this has even been belatedly decreed in the united states:

              <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bronx/million_kuj8X4Z2VolVhXnCymfkvM>

              let's face it, we're in the lazy internet age now -- i'm afraid you ARE
              a grumpy old nitpicker ... <grin>

              --
              73
              Ian, G3NRW

              The TS-590S Resources Page:
              http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wadei/ts-590s.htm
            • dl6xaz
              Hi Ian, thanks very much, at least you are comforting me that I am right in my self-judgement. Nothing worse than an uncleared doubt! I don t care whether
              Message 6 of 18 , May 10, 2011
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                Hi Ian,
                thanks very much, at least you are comforting me that I am right in my self-judgement. Nothing worse than an uncleared doubt!
                I don't care whether lower case is read quicker; I love them capitals.
                Have a good one
                vy73 de grumpy old Fred, with a big grin
                DL6XAZ


                --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Ian Wade G3NRW <g3nrw@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: dl6xaz <dl6xaz@...>
                > Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 Time: 14:33:20
                >
                > >Hi all,
                > >is it that I am a grumpy old nitpicker? Reason: I have been taught
                > >nearly half a century ago that callsigns are always, and I mean:
                > >always, written or printed in capital letters, to stand out from
                > >message text. In the service we also had to proceed that way with
                > >traffic abbreviations, Q and Z groups, geographic names and the like.
                > >In rtty it didn't make a difference as our machines printed capitals
                > >only anyway.
                >
                >
                > fred
                >
                > for many, many years now it has been generally accepted that lower case
                > highway signs are more quickly interpreted than upper case signs:
                >
                > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FHWA_Series_fonts
                >
                > this has even been belatedly decreed in the united states:
                >
                > <http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/bronx/million_kuj8X4Z2VolVhXnCymfkvM>
                >
                > let's face it, we're in the lazy internet age now -- i'm afraid you ARE
                > a grumpy old nitpicker ... <grin>
                >
                > --
                > 73
                > Ian, G3NRW
                >
                > The TS-590S Resources Page:
                > http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wadei/ts-590s.htm
                >
              • ve3oij
                ... Yes. BPSK31 has about 25% better throughput, on average, with lower/mixed case than with uppercase alone. At approximately 50 WPM in mixed case, it s
                Message 7 of 18 , May 10, 2011
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                  > Since BPSK31 it is a
                  > keyboard-to-keyboard mode, do we really need to worry about throughput?

                  Yes. BPSK31 has about 25% better throughput, on average, with lower/mixed case than with uppercase alone. At approximately 50 WPM in mixed case, it's already painfully slow, so why make it slower?

                  Do people buy a 5.0 litre Mustang to deliberately drive at 10 MPH all the time? Sure, we've all seen the middle-aged guy who does this, but what to you think of that guy when you're behind him on the road?

                  It's one thing if you can't go any faster (because you don't have the typing skill :) ). It's another thing to deliberately bork the mode to go slower by choosing to use all upper case. It's still another thing to bork the communication by deliberately choosing to make it hard to read through the use of all lower case.

                  > BPSK31 is not the most robust mode on the planet, so maybe some protocol
                  > is needed in order to improve the copy, I think there is a clear need for
                  > call signs and Q signals to be in upper case.

                  I agree that callsigns and Q-signals should be in upper case, because that is the convention for them. I wouldn't write them in lower case in other communication, so I don't type them in lower case on the radio.

                  > Internet habits? Yes. Lower case is stylish and noncommittal, while upper
                  > case implies you are yelling and yelling implies anger and I guess there is
                  > some special rule that says you can't be angry and surf the Internet at the
                  > same time. The upper-case rule does not have the same effect with radio
                  > operators - especially for RTTY operators. After all, just take at look at
                  > any RTTY pile-up...everyone IS yelling, so why not use a character style
                  > that embraces the mood of the moment.

                  Writing all in lower case (often with no punctuation, e e cummings-style) may be common on the internet, but it's still inappropriate for communication, just like all upper case is considered inappropriate for internet communication. Kids making sloppy communication doesn't make it correct.

                  RTTY and some other modes are all upper case. There's nothing that can be done about that. That's absolutely cool. When you move that all upper case onto other modes, it's just sloppy operating, however. Doubly so because you have to actually make a choice to push the Caps Lock (or hold shift down) to type all upper case in BPSK. Typing all uppper case on BPSK is like deliberately not leaving spaces between your words in CW. Sure, people can probably read it, but... ugh.

                  >Who determines what is "proper"?

                  Convention. We're supposed to be communicators, so we're supposed to know what is proper in communication, or it not "know" then at least "have a pretty good idea".

                  >Personally, I enjoy it and really don't care what case the other
                  >"guy" transmits. Hey, we all have our own opinions.

                  Despite all this writing, I don't care as much as it may seem. I really don't like it when people type all upper case in PSK31 as I consider it sloppy operating that is wasteful of bandwidth, but I don't lose much sleep over it. I mention it when it happens and suggest that the operator would be more effective in mixed case, but making the contact is ultimately more important.

                  The operator will learn good operations in the fullness of time. I'm not perfect either.
                • Joe Brown
                  Fred just my 2 cents worth. If one is sending lower case then I would prefer to see call signs and Q-signals in upper case. Otherwise it doesn t matter to me.
                  Message 8 of 18 , May 10, 2011
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                    Fred just my 2 cents worth. If one is sending lower case then I would prefer to see call signs and Q-signals in upper case. Otherwise it doesn't matter to me.

                    It should go without saying, what is or is not appropriate on the internet has no bearing on how we communicate in ham radio digital modes.

                    As a point Contestia is also like RTTY and some other modes all caps.
                    73 – Joe W2JLB
                    

                    On 5/10/2011 2:19 AM, dl6xaz wrote:
                     

                    Hi folks,
                    thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest.
                    Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the varicode transmits the text faster in lower case but more subject to QRN. Yet as rightly stated, who cares as we are under no time pressure, and if we want doing things quicker, change to higher speed and do the boring macro exchanges.
                    As for "shouting", this is apparently something interpreted from internet habits; everybody may interprete it in his/her own way; I don't care if I get emails in capitals or lower case and don't feel yelled at. Until we got the soundcard modes with the varicode it was all capitals anyway in RTTY and AMTOR/Pactor1.
                    Laziness: yes, most likely. And those free from sin may throw the first stone, me included. Possibly also due to many not having learned to write with ten fingers blindly as I do (admitting that the back-key is a blessing and that my fingers are often faster than my grey cells).
                    Summarizing: of course what I moaned about is my personal position, and even for being looked at as kind of fossile of education I dislike that certain styles in communicating with each other are watered down. That said, I stick to my preference in seeing callsigns and Q-groups in capitals at least.
                    Many thanks again for your input!
                    vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

                  • dl6xaz
                    Thanks Joe, your 2 cents just bring it to the point; I don t ask for more than just these essentials. Internet and radio are two different kettles of fish;
                    Message 9 of 18 , May 10, 2011
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                      Thanks Joe, your 2 cents just bring it to the point; I don't ask for more than just these essentials. Internet and radio are two different kettles of fish; they got their own habits, we got our own, and please don't mix it all up.
                      vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

                      --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Joe Brown <w2jlb1@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Fred just my 2 cents worth. If one is sending lower case then I would
                      > prefer to see call signs and Q-signals in upper case. Otherwise it
                      > doesn't matter to me.
                      >
                      > It should go without saying, what is or is not appropriate on the
                      > internet has no bearing on how we communicate in ham radio digital modes.
                      >
                      > As a point Contestia is also like RTTY and some other modes all caps.
                      >
                      > 73 -- Joe W2JLB
                      >
                      >
                      > On 5/10/2011 2:19 AM, dl6xaz wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hi folks,
                      > > thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest.
                      > > Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the
                      > > varicode transmits the text faster in lower case but more subject to
                      > > QRN. Yet as rightly stated, who cares as we are under no time
                      > > pressure, and if we want doing things quicker, change to higher speed
                      > > and do the boring macro exchanges.
                      > > As for "shouting", this is apparently something interpreted from
                      > > internet habits; everybody may interprete it in his/her own way; I
                      > > don't care if I get emails in capitals or lower case and don't feel
                      > > yelled at. Until we got the soundcard modes with the varicode it was
                      > > all capitals anyway in RTTY and AMTOR/Pactor1.
                      > > Laziness: yes, most likely. And those free from sin may throw the
                      > > first stone, me included. Possibly also due to many not having learned
                      > > to write with ten fingers blindly as I do (admitting that the back-key
                      > > is a blessing and that my fingers are often faster than my grey cells).
                      > > Summarizing: of course what I moaned about is my personal position,
                      > > and even for being looked at as kind of fossile of education I dislike
                      > > that certain styles in communicating with each other are watered down.
                      > > That said, I stick to my preference in seeing callsigns and Q-groups
                      > > in capitals at least.
                      > > Many thanks again for your input!
                      > > vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Scott Currier
                      Fred, I had never really thought much about this issue until you brought it up. I think that on modes with both upper and lower case it makes sense to use the
                      Message 10 of 18 , May 10, 2011
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                        Fred, I had never really thought much about this issue until you brought it up.

                        I think that on modes with both upper and lower case it makes sense to use the proper case for the text that you are sending and there is merit to sending calls in upper case.

                        I do think that a more serious problem with most people and their macros is that they are written as though they expect everything to be received on the other end with 100 percent accuracy.

                        This can be a problem when numbers are involved because they can't easily be inferred from the characters that do get through.

                        Someone sends their brag tape and because there are no repeats you miss the model number of the radio as well as the power output, sometimes even more information is lost.

                        I need to redo my macros with some repetition of important data.

                        Your comments are helpful, in the past I have not paid much attention to case with calls. I do use proper case and proper punctuation when typing during a QSO but I hadn't been concerned about capitalizing calls. I see the merit to this and will capitalize calls.

                        I'm so used to using proper case and punctuation I do it on RTTY and Contestia. My software shows the proper case on the screen when I'm typing. I didn't realize that Contestia was only upper case until sometime after I began using it.

                        So, in addition to Fred's suggestion of using upper case for calls, Q signals, and maybe some other items, I suggest that macros for PSK31 be set with some redundancy.

                        I suggest redundancy for grid squares, radio model, antenna model, power output, and other items that cannot be guessed from context.

                        I have a habit, based on my previous RTTY usage where I was grateful if half of my text made it through without errors, of repeating numbers several times when I'm typing live. That way the chances of the other person receiving my transmission will have a greater chance of receiving the text correctly.

                        Last thing to think about is power output, we are supposed to use the minimum power necessary to complete a contact. If I'm receiving a station with a lot of errors that station is using less than the necessary power and in my opinion they should increase power. I regularly increase power when it's clear that the present link budget is not enough to produce good copy on the other end. I'm trying to communicate, not fill the other person's screen with garbage.

                        73 all and good dx.

                        Scott KT1B Haverhill, MA























                        To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                        From: dl6xaz@...
                        Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 06:19:42 +0000
                        Subject: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on

                         
                        Hi folks,
                        thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest.
                        Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the varicode transmits the text faster in lower case but more subject to QRN. Yet as rightly stated, who cares as we are under no time pressure, and if we want doing things quicker, change to higher speed and do the boring macro exchanges.
                        As for "shouting", this is apparently something interpreted from internet habits; everybody may interprete it in his/her own way; I don't care if I get emails in capitals or lower case and don't feel yelled at. Until we got the soundcard modes with the varicode it was all capitals anyway in RTTY and AMTOR/Pactor1.
                        Laziness: yes, most likely. And those free from sin may throw the first stone, me included. Possibly also due to many not having learned to write with ten fingers blindly as I do (admitting that the back-key is a blessing and that my fingers are often faster than my grey cells).
                        Summarizing: of course what I moaned about is my personal position, and even for being looked at as kind of fossile of education I dislike that certain styles in communicating with each other are watered down. That said, I stick to my preference in seeing callsigns and Q-groups in capitals at least.
                        Many thanks again for your input!
                        vy73 Fred DL6XAZ


                      • Siegfried Jackstien
                        Oh as far as i know in us they build cars with 8 cyl. and 5-8ltr and 200-400hp... and fastest is 55 miles .... in germany we build 4 cyl cars with 50-150 hp
                        Message 11 of 18 , May 10, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Oh as far as i know in us they build cars with 8 cyl. and 5-8ltr and
                          200-400hp... and fastest is 55 miles .... in germany we build 4 cyl cars
                          with 50-150 hp and on some highways you can drive 200 miles an hour ....
                          The same on hf .... some 80m ragchewers work wilth a gallon or more ... but
                          10w would be enough .... so what?!?
                          Fred is right with callsign and some major signs in big letters
                          Yes troughput is a bit lower BUT if you received a capital letter the chance
                          that it is received correct (no garbage) is very high
                          Now with some redundancy the other can receive your call very easy
                          Sometimes first part of call and next time second part of call is received
                          correct ...
                          And to have some redundancy is only needed if it is a mode with non fec and
                          non arq like psk31 .... but most people are using the same macros for many
                          modes .... even if there is redundancy IN that mode (fec) or even if it is
                          an arq mode!!!
                          I have no big bragfile under my macroc ... just the most needed things as
                          small text-blocks .... and most of the time I use free keyboard typing and
                          use the macros what they are: a short!!! text-part that you need very often
                          Typing with that goes faster and if I wanna send my antenna or rig twice
                          (for redundancy on bad codx) I just press that macro key twice
                          So the chance to fill the others station with garbage is a bit lower for me
                          hi hi
                          What I hate most is if a station makes several qsos with just pressing f1 f2
                          f3 f4 (and so on) and then next station please ....
                          Before I answer a call I sit on that qrg and see if the other is such a
                          station (you will recognize that in a minute or two) ... if that is the case
                          I just do not answer ... as I do wanna communicate with a ham ... not just
                          receive the macros from the other ham´s personal computer
                          Such a qso is like talking to a telephone answering machine ... not much fun
                          Just my 2 cents
                          Dg9bfc
                          Sigi


                          > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                          > Von: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
                          > ve3oij
                          > Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Mai 2011 10:50
                          > An: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                          > Betreff: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > Since BPSK31 it is a
                          > > keyboard-to-keyboard mode, do we really need to worry about throughput?
                          >
                          > Yes. BPSK31 has about 25% better throughput, on average, with lower/mixed
                          > case than with uppercase alone. At approximately 50 WPM in mixed case,
                          > it's already painfully slow, so why make it slower?
                          >
                          > Do people buy a 5.0 litre Mustang to deliberately drive at 10 MPH all the
                          > time? Sure, we've all seen the middle-aged guy who does this, but what to
                          > you think of that guy when you're behind him on the road?
                          >
                          > It's one thing if you can't go any faster (because you don't have the
                          > typing skill :) ). It's another thing to deliberately bork the mode to go
                          > slower by choosing to use all upper case. It's still another thing to bork
                          > the communication by deliberately choosing to make it hard to read through
                          > the use of all lower case.
                          >
                          > > BPSK31 is not the most robust mode on the planet, so maybe some protocol
                          > > is needed in order to improve the copy, I think there is a clear need
                          > for
                          > > call signs and Q signals to be in upper case.
                          >
                          > I agree that callsigns and Q-signals should be in upper case, because that
                          > is the convention for them. I wouldn't write them in lower case in other
                          > communication, so I don't type them in lower case on the radio.
                          >
                          > > Internet habits? Yes. Lower case is stylish and noncommittal, while
                          > upper
                          > > case implies you are yelling and yelling implies anger and I guess there
                          > is
                          > > some special rule that says you can't be angry and surf the Internet at
                          > the
                          > > same time. The upper-case rule does not have the same effect with radio
                          > > operators - especially for RTTY operators. After all, just take at look
                          > at
                          > > any RTTY pile-up...everyone IS yelling, so why not use a character style
                          > > that embraces the mood of the moment.
                          >
                          > Writing all in lower case (often with no punctuation, e e cummings-style)
                          > may be common on the internet, but it's still inappropriate for
                          > communication, just like all upper case is considered inappropriate for
                          > internet communication. Kids making sloppy communication doesn't make it
                          > correct.
                          >
                          > RTTY and some other modes are all upper case. There's nothing that can be
                          > done about that. That's absolutely cool. When you move that all upper case
                          > onto other modes, it's just sloppy operating, however. Doubly so because
                          > you have to actually make a choice to push the Caps Lock (or hold shift
                          > down) to type all upper case in BPSK. Typing all uppper case on BPSK is
                          > like deliberately not leaving spaces between your words in CW. Sure,
                          > people can probably read it, but... ugh.
                          >
                          > >Who determines what is "proper"?
                          >
                          > Convention. We're supposed to be communicators, so we're supposed to know
                          > what is proper in communication, or it not "know" then at least "have a
                          > pretty good idea".
                          >
                          > >Personally, I enjoy it and really don't care what case the other
                          > >"guy" transmits. Hey, we all have our own opinions.
                          >
                          > Despite all this writing, I don't care as much as it may seem. I really
                          > don't like it when people type all upper case in PSK31 as I consider it
                          > sloppy operating that is wasteful of bandwidth, but I don't lose much
                          > sleep over it. I mention it when it happens and suggest that the operator
                          > would be more effective in mixed case, but making the contact is
                          > ultimately more important.
                          >
                          > The operator will learn good operations in the fullness of time. I'm not
                          > perfect either.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • dl6xaz
                          Hi Sigi, that situation with our motorways is strange indeed, but to a certain extent it applies to radio as well. The difference between operators is that
                          Message 12 of 18 , May 11, 2011
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Sigi,
                            that situation with our motorways is strange indeed, but to a certain extent it applies to radio as well. The difference between operators is that some just stick to the habitual 30-50W digi power, irrespective of the power they could send with, and others who try overdriving the engine by all kind of patches to tickle out some further Watts on top of their exaggerated output. And then wonder why there are complaints about ladders, sproggies, image signals and other undesired signals. We won't change them. Last month they caught a foreign driver racing with 200 mph near Hamburg in a 50 mph speed limit zone. And you find the proverbial pensioner ragchewing in a local round with 400W ("... to keep the frequency clean!")
                            It is something we shall always encounter, and it's no use getting more grey or white hair by going mad.
                            Your remark on the code redundancy contained in varicode capital letters is exactly what is often neglected when dealing with QRM-QRN situation. In this context - a bit off-topic - I should like to repeat that QPSK is more reliable and robust exactly for this reason: greater code redundancy. Frequently it has proven to enable a QSO where BPSK would have given miserable results.
                            vy73 Fred DL6XAZ


                            --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "Siegfried Jackstien" <siegfried.jackstien@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Oh as far as i know in us they build cars with 8 cyl. and 5-8ltr and
                            > 200-400hp... and fastest is 55 miles .... in germany we build 4 cyl cars
                            > with 50-150 hp and on some highways you can drive 200 miles an hour ....
                            > The same on hf .... some 80m ragchewers work wilth a gallon or more ... but
                            > 10w would be enough .... so what?!?
                            > Fred is right with callsign and some major signs in big letters
                            > Yes troughput is a bit lower BUT if you received a capital letter the chance
                            > that it is received correct (no garbage) is very high
                            > Now with some redundancy the other can receive your call very easy
                            > Sometimes first part of call and next time second part of call is received
                            > correct ...
                            > And to have some redundancy is only needed if it is a mode with non fec and
                            > non arq like psk31 .... but most people are using the same macros for many
                            > modes .... even if there is redundancy IN that mode (fec) or even if it is
                            > an arq mode!!!
                            > I have no big bragfile under my macroc ... just the most needed things as
                            > small text-blocks .... and most of the time I use free keyboard typing and
                            > use the macros what they are: a short!!! text-part that you need very often
                            > Typing with that goes faster and if I wanna send my antenna or rig twice
                            > (for redundancy on bad codx) I just press that macro key twice
                            > So the chance to fill the others station with garbage is a bit lower for me
                            > hi hi
                            > What I hate most is if a station makes several qsos with just pressing f1 f2
                            > f3 f4 (and so on) and then next station please ....
                            > Before I answer a call I sit on that qrg and see if the other is such a
                            > station (you will recognize that in a minute or two) ... if that is the case
                            > I just do not answer ... as I do wanna communicate with a ham ... not just
                            > receive the macros from the other ham´s personal computer
                            > Such a qso is like talking to a telephone answering machine ... not much fun
                            > Just my 2 cents
                            > Dg9bfc
                            > Sigi
                            >
                            >
                            > > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                            > > Von: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
                            > > ve3oij
                            > > Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Mai 2011 10:50
                            > > An: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Betreff: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > Since BPSK31 it is a
                            > > > keyboard-to-keyboard mode, do we really need to worry about throughput?
                            > >
                            > > Yes. BPSK31 has about 25% better throughput, on average, with lower/mixed
                            > > case than with uppercase alone. At approximately 50 WPM in mixed case,
                            > > it's already painfully slow, so why make it slower?
                            > >
                            > > Do people buy a 5.0 litre Mustang to deliberately drive at 10 MPH all the
                            > > time? Sure, we've all seen the middle-aged guy who does this, but what to
                            > > you think of that guy when you're behind him on the road?
                            > >
                            > > It's one thing if you can't go any faster (because you don't have the
                            > > typing skill :) ). It's another thing to deliberately bork the mode to go
                            > > slower by choosing to use all upper case. It's still another thing to bork
                            > > the communication by deliberately choosing to make it hard to read through
                            > > the use of all lower case.
                            > >
                            > > > BPSK31 is not the most robust mode on the planet, so maybe some protocol
                            > > > is needed in order to improve the copy, I think there is a clear need
                            > > for
                            > > > call signs and Q signals to be in upper case.
                            > >
                            > > I agree that callsigns and Q-signals should be in upper case, because that
                            > > is the convention for them. I wouldn't write them in lower case in other
                            > > communication, so I don't type them in lower case on the radio.
                            > >
                            > > > Internet habits? Yes. Lower case is stylish and noncommittal, while
                            > > upper
                            > > > case implies you are yelling and yelling implies anger and I guess there
                            > > is
                            > > > some special rule that says you can't be angry and surf the Internet at
                            > > the
                            > > > same time. The upper-case rule does not have the same effect with radio
                            > > > operators - especially for RTTY operators. After all, just take at look
                            > > at
                            > > > any RTTY pile-up...everyone IS yelling, so why not use a character style
                            > > > that embraces the mood of the moment.
                            > >
                            > > Writing all in lower case (often with no punctuation, e e cummings-style)
                            > > may be common on the internet, but it's still inappropriate for
                            > > communication, just like all upper case is considered inappropriate for
                            > > internet communication. Kids making sloppy communication doesn't make it
                            > > correct.
                            > >
                            > > RTTY and some other modes are all upper case. There's nothing that can be
                            > > done about that. That's absolutely cool. When you move that all upper case
                            > > onto other modes, it's just sloppy operating, however. Doubly so because
                            > > you have to actually make a choice to push the Caps Lock (or hold shift
                            > > down) to type all upper case in BPSK. Typing all uppper case on BPSK is
                            > > like deliberately not leaving spaces between your words in CW. Sure,
                            > > people can probably read it, but... ugh.
                            > >
                            > > >Who determines what is "proper"?
                            > >
                            > > Convention. We're supposed to be communicators, so we're supposed to know
                            > > what is proper in communication, or it not "know" then at least "have a
                            > > pretty good idea".
                            > >
                            > > >Personally, I enjoy it and really don't care what case the other
                            > > >"guy" transmits. Hey, we all have our own opinions.
                            > >
                            > > Despite all this writing, I don't care as much as it may seem. I really
                            > > don't like it when people type all upper case in PSK31 as I consider it
                            > > sloppy operating that is wasteful of bandwidth, but I don't lose much
                            > > sleep over it. I mention it when it happens and suggest that the operator
                            > > would be more effective in mixed case, but making the contact is
                            > > ultimately more important.
                            > >
                            > > The operator will learn good operations in the fullness of time. I'm not
                            > > perfect either.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • dl6xaz
                            Hi Scott, first of all, congrats for completing the 30m QRP requirements! You will get bitten by the bug, I promise you, as soon as condx continue improving. I
                            Message 13 of 18 , May 11, 2011
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hi Scott,
                              first of all, congrats for completing the 30m QRP requirements! You will get bitten by the bug, I promise you, as soon as condx continue improving. I wait for the day when I can work your states and other DX with 2-3W from my KX1 on 30m, just with an odd piece of wire in the nearest tree!
                              There is little to be added to your comments on the capital letter question; you said it all.
                              With regards to the macros and a certain text redundancy, Sigi has commented on it in another mail, and rightly so.
                              Now, as final point, the output power is something where we could discuss endlessly. I don't intend to do so, but just say this:
                              RTTY requires lots of power, due to its lack of code redundancy and consequent high sensitivity to QRM, QRN and QSB. It is fast, but it is unreliable. The Olivia group of modes can be run with relatively low power, much less even than required for the PSK modes. However, you will always encounter conditions when even 400W in PSK won't improve your signal on the other side because of path distortions and other solar/terrestrial influences. It just requires a bit of flexibility - and knowledge - to adapt the mode to the conditions without having to fire up the PA for the proverbial gallon. Unfortunately the great majority seems to think that modes beyond PSK are just for weirdos... :-)
                              vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

                              --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Fred, I had never really thought much about this issue until you brought it up.
                              >
                              > I think that on modes with both upper and lower case it makes sense to use the proper case for the text that you are sending and there is merit to sending calls in upper case.
                              >
                              > I do think that a more serious problem with most people and their macros is that they are written as though they expect everything to be received on the other end with 100 percent accuracy.
                              >
                              > This can be a problem when numbers are involved because they can't easily be inferred from the characters that do get through.
                              >
                              > Someone sends their brag tape and because there are no repeats you miss the model number of the radio as well as the power output, sometimes even more information is lost.
                              >
                              > I need to redo my macros with some repetition of important data.
                              >
                              > Your comments are helpful, in the past I have not paid much attention to case with calls. I do use proper case and proper punctuation when typing during a QSO but I hadn't been concerned about capitalizing calls. I see the merit to this and will capitalize calls.
                              >
                              > I'm so used to using proper case and punctuation I do it on RTTY and Contestia. My software shows the proper case on the screen when I'm typing. I didn't realize that Contestia was only upper case until sometime after I began using it.
                              >
                              > So, in addition to Fred's suggestion of using upper case for calls, Q signals, and maybe some other items, I suggest that macros for PSK31 be set with some redundancy.
                              >
                              > I suggest redundancy for grid squares, radio model, antenna model, power output, and other items that cannot be guessed from context.
                              >
                              > I have a habit, based on my previous RTTY usage where I was grateful if half of my text made it through without errors, of repeating numbers several times when I'm typing live. That way the chances of the other person receiving my transmission will have a greater chance of receiving the text correctly.
                              >
                              > Last thing to think about is power output, we are supposed to use the minimum power necessary to complete a contact. If I'm receiving a station with a lot of errors that station is using less than the necessary power and in my opinion they should increase power. I regularly increase power when it's clear that the present link budget is not enough to produce good copy on the other end. I'm trying to communicate, not fill the other person's screen with garbage.
                              >
                              > 73 all and good dx.
                              >
                              > Scott KT1B Haverhill, MA
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                              > From: dl6xaz@...
                              > Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 06:19:42 +0000
                              > Subject: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Hi folks,
                              >
                              > thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest.
                              >
                              > Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the varicode transmits the text faster in lower case but more subject to QRN. Yet as rightly stated, who cares as we are under no time pressure, and if we want doing things quicker, change to higher speed and do the boring macro exchanges.
                              >
                              > As for "shouting", this is apparently something interpreted from internet habits; everybody may interprete it in his/her own way; I don't care if I get emails in capitals or lower case and don't feel yelled at. Until we got the soundcard modes with the varicode it was all capitals anyway in RTTY and AMTOR/Pactor1.
                              >
                              > Laziness: yes, most likely. And those free from sin may throw the first stone, me included. Possibly also due to many not having learned to write with ten fingers blindly as I do (admitting that the back-key is a blessing and that my fingers are often faster than my grey cells).
                              >
                              > Summarizing: of course what I moaned about is my personal position, and even for being looked at as kind of fossile of education I dislike that certain styles in communicating with each other are watered down. That said, I stick to my preference in seeing callsigns and Q-groups in capitals at least.
                              >
                              > Many thanks again for your input!
                              >
                              > vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
                              >
                            • Scott Currier
                              Hi Seigfried, not that it makes much difference but speed limits have improved over here. Usually it s 65, some places are 75, and I understand they re looking
                              Message 14 of 18 , May 11, 2011
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi Seigfried, not that it makes much difference but speed limits have improved over here. Usually it's 65, some places are 75, and I understand they're looking to push it up to 80 or more in places in the midwest. Of course the speed limit signs are just guidelines. Traffic usually moves along considerably faster. :)

                                Here in Massachusetts we have some strict rules.. Never yield the right to way to emergency vehicles, they should never have caught up with you in the first place.

                                When driving down a one way street be sure to stay on one side of the road or another to make room for oncoming traffic.

                                Of course the big question is why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway? Our dept of the interior seems to be in charge of everything outdoors.

                                200mph seems to be a bit on the excessive side, how do you handle your coffee, talk on the phone and text at that speed? Unless your highways go straight down what kind of car will do 200 mph with only 150 hp?

                                Besides, excessive speed doesn't help much with mobile antennas.

                                No fun working 30 meter cw at 150mph only to have the antenna blow off the car.

                                73 and have a nice day.


                                To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                From: siegfried.jackstien@...
                                Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 06:09:19 +0000
                                Subject: AW: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on

                                 
                                Oh as far as i know in us they build cars with 8 cyl. and 5-8ltr and
                                200-400hp... and fastest is 55 miles .... in germany we build 4 cyl cars
                                with 50-150 hp and on some highways you can drive 200 miles an hour ....
                                The same on hf .... some 80m ragchewers work wilth a gallon or more ... but
                                10w would be enough .... so what?!?
                                Fred is right with callsign and some major signs in big letters
                                Yes troughput is a bit lower BUT if you received a capital letter the chance
                                that it is received correct (no garbage) is very high
                                Now with some redundancy the other can receive your call very easy
                                Sometimes first part of call and next time second part of call is received
                                correct ...
                                And to have some redundancy is only needed if it is a mode with non fec and
                                non arq like psk31 .... but most people are using the same macros for many
                                modes .... even if there is redundancy IN that mode (fec) or even if it is
                                an arq mode!!!
                                I have no big bragfile under my macroc ... just the most needed things as
                                small text-blocks .... and most of the time I use free keyboard typing and
                                use the macros what they are: a short!!! text-part that you need very often
                                Typing with that goes faster and if I wanna send my antenna or rig twice
                                (for redundancy on bad codx) I just press that macro key twice
                                So the chance to fill the others station with garbage is a bit lower for me
                                hi hi
                                What I hate most is if a station makes several qsos with just pressing f1 f2
                                f3 f4 (and so on) and then next station please ....
                                Before I answer a call I sit on that qrg and see if the other is such a
                                station (you will recognize that in a minute or two) ... if that is the case
                                I just do not answer ... as I do wanna communicate with a ham ... not just
                                receive the macros from the other ham´s personal computer
                                Such a qso is like talking to a telephone answering machine ... not much fun
                                Just my 2 cents
                                Dg9bfc
                                Sigi

                                > -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
                                > Von: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] Im Auftrag von
                                > ve3oij
                                > Gesendet: Dienstag, 10. Mai 2011 10:50
                                > An: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                > Betreff: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > Since BPSK31 it is a
                                > > keyboard-to-keyboard mode, do we really need to worry about throughput?
                                >
                                > Yes. BPSK31 has about 25% better throughput, on average, with lower/mixed
                                > case than with uppercase alone. At approximately 50 WPM in mixed case,
                                > it's already painfully slow, so why make it slower?
                                >
                                > Do people buy a 5.0 litre Mustang to deliberately drive at 10 MPH all the
                                > time? Sure, we've all seen the middle-aged guy who does this, but what to
                                > you think of that guy when you're behind him on the road?
                                >
                                > It's one thing if you can't go any faster (because you don't have the
                                > typing skill :) ). It's another thing to deliberately bork the mode to go
                                > slower by choosing to use all upper case. It's still another thing to bork
                                > the communication by deliberately choosing to make it hard to read through
                                > the use of all lower case.
                                >
                                > > BPSK31 is not the most robust mode on the planet, so maybe some protocol
                                > > is needed in order to improve the copy, I think there is a clear need
                                > for
                                > > call signs and Q signals to be in upper case.
                                >
                                > I agree that callsigns and Q-signals should be in upper case, because that
                                > is the convention for them. I wouldn't write them in lower case in other
                                > communication, so I don't type them in lower case on the radio.
                                >
                                > > Internet habits? Yes. Lower case is stylish and noncommittal, while
                                > upper
                                > > case implies you are yelling and yelling implies anger and I guess there
                                > is
                                > > some special rule that says you can't be angry and surf the Internet at
                                > the
                                > > same time. The upper-case rule does not have the same effect with radio
                                > > operators - especially for RTTY operators. After all, just take at look
                                > at
                                > > any RTTY pile-up...everyone IS yelling, so why not use a character style
                                > > that embraces the mood of the moment.
                                >
                                > Writing all in lower case (often with no punctuation, e e cummings-style)
                                > may be common on the internet, but it's still inappropriate for
                                > communication, just like all upper case is considered inappropriate for
                                > internet communication. Kids making sloppy communication doesn't make it
                                > correct.
                                >
                                > RTTY and some other modes are all upper case. There's nothing that can be
                                > done about that. That's absolutely cool. When you move that all upper case
                                > onto other modes, it's just sloppy operating, however. Doubly so because
                                > you have to actually make a choice to push the Caps Lock (or hold shift
                                > down) to type all upper case in BPSK. Typing all uppper case on BPSK is
                                > like deliberately not leaving spaces between your words in CW. Sure,
                                > people can probably read it, but... ugh.
                                >
                                > >Who determines what is "proper"?
                                >
                                > Convention. We're supposed to be communicators, so we're supposed to know
                                > what is proper in communication, or it not "know" then at least "have a
                                > pretty good idea".
                                >
                                > >Personally, I enjoy it and really don't care what case the other
                                > >"guy" transmits. Hey, we all have our own opinions.
                                >
                                > Despite all this writing, I don't care as much as it may seem. I really
                                > don't like it when people type all upper case in PSK31 as I consider it
                                > sloppy operating that is wasteful of bandwidth, but I don't lose much
                                > sleep over it. I mention it when it happens and suggest that the operator
                                > would be more effective in mixed case, but making the contact is
                                > ultimately more important.
                                >
                                > The operator will learn good operations in the fullness of time. I'm not
                                > perfect either.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >


                              • Scott Currier
                                Thanks Fred, there was one nite when conditions were much better than usual and some EU stations were well over S9 which I almost never see on 30 meters. I had
                                Message 15 of 18 , May 11, 2011
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks Fred, there was one nite when conditions were much better than usual and some EU stations were well over S9 which I almost never see on 30 meters. I had another nite or two where all I could work was one or two stations.

                                  I'm hoping for an expansion of the 30 meter QRP award, if that happens I'll probably try some other modes on QRP.

                                  I see K4JJQ I think his call is operate with 4 watts into an S9 vertical antenna and doing quite well. F1FLT I believe the call is is on regularly and doing quite well with 1 watt. Wouldn't even have known that he was QRP. I also worked a few qrp stations using mag loops. Including a VK who I have worked several times, he runs 10 watts into a mag loop. I was not qrp when I worked him though. I was able to get through to vk3ama on qrp which really surprised me. He hears quite well.

                                  EU was very easy with 5 watts. I tried working ZS with 5 but got no answer, I did not hear any S. America while I was working QRP.

                                  West coast US didn't seem to be a problem.

                                  I have the advantage of being within 12 miles of the ocean so anything to the east always has been pretty easy.

                                  It was an interesting experiment.

                                  73 Fred and have a great day.
























                                  To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: dl6xaz@...
                                  Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:07:05 +0000
                                  Subject: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on

                                   
                                  Hi Scott,
                                  first of all, congrats for completing the 30m QRP requirements! You will get bitten by the bug, I promise you, as soon as condx continue improving. I wait for the day when I can work your states and other DX with 2-3W from my KX1 on 30m, just with an odd piece of wire in the nearest tree!
                                  There is little to be added to your comments on the capital letter question; you said it all.
                                  With regards to the macros and a certain text redundancy, Sigi has commented on it in another mail, and rightly so.
                                  Now, as final point, the output power is something where we could discuss endlessly. I don't intend to do so, but just say this:
                                  RTTY requires lots of power, due to its lack of code redundancy and consequent high sensitivity to QRM, QRN and QSB. It is fast, but it is unreliable. The Olivia group of modes can be run with relatively low power, much less even than required for the PSK modes. However, you will always encounter conditions when even 400W in PSK won't improve your signal on the other side because of path distortions and other solar/terrestrial influences. It just requires a bit of flexibility - and knowledge - to adapt the mode to the conditions without having to fire up the PA for the proverbial gallon. Unfortunately the great majority seems to think that modes beyond PSK are just for weirdos... :-)
                                  vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

                                  --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Fred, I had never really thought much about this issue until you brought it up.
                                  >
                                  > I think that on modes with both upper and lower case it makes sense to use the proper case for the text that you are sending and there is merit to sending calls in upper case.
                                  >
                                  > I do think that a more serious problem with most people and their macros is that they are written as though they expect everything to be received on the other end with 100 percent accuracy.
                                  >
                                  > This can be a problem when numbers are involved because they can't easily be inferred from the characters that do get through.
                                  >
                                  > Someone sends their brag tape and because there are no repeats you miss the model number of the radio as well as the power output, sometimes even more information is lost.
                                  >
                                  > I need to redo my macros with some repetition of important data.
                                  >
                                  > Your comments are helpful, in the past I have not paid much attention to case with calls. I do use proper case and proper punctuation when typing during a QSO but I hadn't been concerned about capitalizing calls. I see the merit to this and will capitalize calls.
                                  >
                                  > I'm so used to using proper case and punctuation I do it on RTTY and Contestia. My software shows the proper case on the screen when I'm typing. I didn't realize that Contestia was only upper case until sometime after I began using it.
                                  >
                                  > So, in addition to Fred's suggestion of using upper case for calls, Q signals, and maybe some other items, I suggest that macros for PSK31 be set with some redundancy.
                                  >
                                  > I suggest redundancy for grid squares, radio model, antenna model, power output, and other items that cannot be guessed from context.
                                  >
                                  > I have a habit, based on my previous RTTY usage where I was grateful if half of my text made it through without errors, of repeating numbers several times when I'm typing live. That way the chances of the other person receiving my transmission will have a greater chance of receiving the text correctly.
                                  >
                                  > Last thing to think about is power output, we are supposed to use the minimum power necessary to complete a contact. If I'm receiving a station with a lot of errors that station is using less than the necessary power and in my opinion they should increase power. I regularly increase power when it's clear that the present link budget is not enough to produce good copy on the other end. I'm trying to communicate, not fill the other person's screen with garbage.
                                  >
                                  > 73 all and good dx.
                                  >
                                  > Scott KT1B Haverhill, MA
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                                  > To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                  > From: dl6xaz@...
                                  > Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 06:19:42 +0000
                                  > Subject: [30MDG] Re: Capital letters and so on
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                                  > Hi folks,
                                  >
                                  > thanks to all who commented; all read with great interest.
                                  >
                                  > Technically seen in psk modes, you are of course right insofar as the varicode transmits the text faster in lower case but more subject to QRN. Yet as rightly stated, who cares as we are under no time pressure, and if we want doing things quicker, change to higher speed and do the boring macro exchanges.
                                  >
                                  > As for "shouting", this is apparently something interpreted from internet habits; everybody may interprete it in his/her own way; I don't care if I get emails in capitals or lower case and don't feel yelled at. Until we got the soundcard modes with the varicode it was all capitals anyway in RTTY and AMTOR/Pactor1.
                                  >
                                  > Laziness: yes, most likely. And those free from sin may throw the first stone, me included. Possibly also due to many not having learned to write with ten fingers blindly as I do (admitting that the back-key is a blessing and that my fingers are often faster than my grey cells).
                                  >
                                  > Summarizing: of course what I moaned about is my personal position, and even for being looked at as kind of fossile of education I dislike that certain styles in communicating with each other are watered down. That said, I stick to my preference in seeing callsigns and Q-groups in capitals at least.
                                  >
                                  > Many thanks again for your input!
                                  >
                                  > vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
                                  >


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