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Radar issues.

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  • Scott Currier
    The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It s running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9. I was able to make some
    Message 1 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
      The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

      I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

      Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

      Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

      Does anyone know the source of the radar?

      73 and have a nice weekend.























    • signalhz
      No Radar out here that I can tell. Eddy N4ABN
      Message 2 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
        No Radar out here that I can tell.

        Eddy
        N4ABN

        On 9/18/2010 6:35 PM, Scott Currier wrote:
         

        The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

        I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

        Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

        Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

        Does anyone know the source of the radar?

        73 and have a nice weekend.























      • Daithi
        It s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites). You have to remember that we re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not
        Message 3 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010

          It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

           

          You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

           

          Daithi, GI7OMY

           

          From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
          Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
          To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

           

           

          The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

          I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

          Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

          Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

          Does anyone know the source of the radar?

          73 and have a nice weekend.






















        • signalhz
          How can you tell if you re causing them interference? I hear it now on 10.140. It s a little noise but not enough to interrupt any of my qso s so far. Eddy
          Message 4 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
            How can you tell if you're causing them interference?  I hear it now on 10.140. It's a little noise but not enough to interrupt any of my qso's so far.

            Eddy
            N4ABN

            On 9/18/2010 6:59 PM, Daithi wrote:
             

            It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

             

            You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

             

            Daithi, GI7OMY

             

            From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
            Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
            To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

             

             

            The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

            I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

            Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

            Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

            Does anyone know the source of the radar?

            73 and have a nice weekend.






















          • Scott Currier
            Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are? As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary
            Message 5 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
              Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

              As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

              My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

              I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

              So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

              Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

              Thanks for your help.




              To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
              From: gi7omy@...
              Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
              Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

               

              It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

               

              You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

               

              Daithi, GI7OMY

               

              From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
              Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
              To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

               

               

              The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

              I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

              Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

              Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

              Does anyone know the source of the radar?

              73 and have a nice weekend.
























            • Scott Currier
              It s very strong here. I wouldn t worry about causing interference to them. My reading on the internet indicates that radar receivers are inherently tolerant
              Message 6 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                It's very strong here. I wouldn't worry about causing interference to them. My reading on the internet indicates that "radar receivers are inherently tolerant of interference". Do a search on that quote for more details.

                I'm not convinced that OTHR on our part of 10 mHz is operating within the ITU frequency allocations and thus would be an intruder.

                I'm still looking for evidence on this issue.

                We share 30 meters with the fixed radio service and we do hear fixed stations in the band. They're narrow enough so that they don't take up too much space. This radar is quite a different story.






















                To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                From: signalhz@...
                Date: Sat, 18 Sep 2010 19:38:15 -0600
                Subject: Re: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                 
                How can you tell if you're causing them interference?  I hear it now on 10.140. It's a little noise but not enough to interrupt any of my qso's so far.

                Eddy
                N4ABN

                On 9/18/2010 6:59 PM, Daithi wrote:
                 

                It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                 

                You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                 

                Daithi, GI7OMY

                 

                From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                 

                 

                The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                73 and have a nice weekend.
























              • Daithi
                One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it s military so it won t appear on any plan). It s just something we have to put up with really and can t complain
                Message 7 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010

                  One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                   

                  Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                   

                  Daithi, GI7OMY

                   

                  From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                  Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                  To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                   

                   

                  Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                  As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                  My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                  I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                  So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                  Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                  Thanks for your help.



                  To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                  From: gi7omy@...
                  Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                  Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                   

                   

                  It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                   

                  You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                   

                  Daithi, GI7OMY

                   

                  From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                  Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                  To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                   

                   

                  The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                  I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                  Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                  Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                  Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                  73 and have a nice weekend.






















                   

                • Scott Currier
                  I m sorry Daithi, I respectfully disagree. According to the ITU any country can assign any station to any frequency provided that it does not cause
                  Message 8 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010

                    I'm sorry Daithi, I respectfully disagree.

                    According to the ITU any country can assign any station to any frequency provided that it does not cause interference to stations operating within the ITU allocations.

                    If a station is operating against the ITU allocations then that station is an intruder.

                    As a secondary user, we need only protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user.

                    So, the question is whether or not OTHR is covered under the fixed radio service. If it isn't, it's an intruder.

                    If it is an intruder then the service receiving the interference has a legit complaint.

                    Whether or not the complaint will do any good is another matter.

                    According to the ITU, 10.1 to 10.150 is Fixed primary and Amateur secondary. Nothing else.

                    So, any signal in that spectrum should be either fixed or amateur, if it isn't then it doesn't belong there.

                    If neither the primary nor secondary user complains then the offending station can assume that they are not causing any problems and continue their operation.

                    So, as secondary users we should still verify that any signals in our spectrum belong there.

                    I have never seen the ITU use the word "military" in any of their allocations.

                    73 and have a nice rest of the weekend. I'm beat, will be crashing soon.









                    To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                    From: gi7omy@...
                    Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:30:20 +0100
                    Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                     

                    One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                     

                    Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                     

                    Daithi, GI7OMY

                     

                    From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                    Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                    To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                     

                     

                    Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                    As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                    My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                    I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                    So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                    Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                    Thanks for your help.




                    To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                    From: gi7omy@...
                    Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                    Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                     

                     

                    It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                     

                    You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                     

                    Daithi, GI7OMY

                     

                    From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                    Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                    To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                     

                     

                    The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                    I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                    Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                    Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                    Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                    73 and have a nice weekend.






















                     


                  • Scott Currier
                    Thank you for the location of one of the OTHRs. I do agree with you that if OTHRs are considered Fixed then there is nothing that we can do about them. Even if
                    Message 9 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010
                      Thank you for the location of one of the OTHRs.

                      I do agree with you that if OTHRs are considered Fixed then there is nothing that we can do about them.

                      Even if the OTHRs were secondary like we are, we still have the right to lodge an interference complaint according to the ITU.

                      If the OTHR is not operating according to the ITU plans then IARU should put in a complaint to the offending government. Who knows, maybe the radar will move.

                      As for dealing with the radar we have a few choices, in no particular order.

                      1. shut the radio off and do something else or go to a different band.
                      2. Go lower in frequency and operate digital down to 10.130 or so as long as it can be done without interfering with others.
                      3. Attempt to use a wide robust mode to work through the interference.

                      It's unlikely that our flea powered radios would interfere with the MegaWatt othrs. Our bandwidth is very narrow and power is very low.

                      However,  a 1000, or 2000, cycle mode may be able squeeze enough data between the pulses to communicate.

                      If the othr isn't too strong, a psk31 signal seems to just about fit between the pulses and I've been able to make some contacts when the radar signal was on s7 or less, when it's up to s9 or better it's really tough to deal with.

                      The problem is that not everyone hears to the radar. So, using a wide mode would be almost impossible without risking interfering with people you can't hear because of the radar but who aren't experiencing interference from the radar.

                      Therefore, it appears to me that going below the radar, if that is possible, may be the best way to go.

                      1 kHz of space can hold a lot of psk31 signals. Maybe a secondary psk31 part of the band around 10.130 may not be a bad idea. 

                      At the very least it would be nice if from 2 to 5 kHz can be designated as a place for people to CQ on digital when 10.135 to 10.150 is clobbered by radar.

                      73 and thank you again for your input.






















                      To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                      From: gi7omy@...
                      Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:30:20 +0100
                      Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                       

                      One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                       

                      Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                       

                      Daithi, GI7OMY

                       

                      From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                      Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                      To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                       

                       

                      Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                      As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                      My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                      I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                      So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                      Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                      Thanks for your help.




                      To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                      From: gi7omy@...
                      Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                      Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                       

                       

                      It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                       

                      You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                       

                      Daithi, GI7OMY

                       

                      From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                      Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                      To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                       

                       

                      The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                      I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                      Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                      Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                      Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                      73 and have a nice weekend.






















                       


                    • don
                      Scott a few months back here in zl we had a problem with othr from universities here in zl and Tasmania Australia , a complaint was sent and they where both
                      Message 10 of 22 , Sep 18, 2010

                        Scott a few months back here in zl we had a problem with othr from universities here in zl and Tasmania Australia , a complaint was sent and they where both told to move away from ham frequencies. They where not using a set frequency but running a scan  to find the best band to use at the time. Frequencies to scan where computer controlled  and not listened to first .

                        But the cyprus one  is military and you just cant beat them. They appear as a law unto them selves Like the wood pecker of the 80s lets just hope the power supply burns out.

                        Don zl1atb

                         

                        From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                        Sent: Sunday, 19 September 2010 5:01 p.m.
                        To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                         

                         

                        Thank you for the location of one of the OTHRs.

                        I do agree with you that if OTHRs are considered Fixed then there is nothing that we can do about them.

                        Even if the OTHRs were secondary like we are, we still have the right to lodge an interference complaint according to the ITU.

                        If the OTHR is not operating according to the ITU plans then IARU should put in a complaint to the offending government. Who knows, maybe the radar will move.

                        As for dealing with the radar we have a few choices, in no particular order.

                        1. shut the radio off and do something else or go to a different band.
                        2. Go lower in frequency and operate digital down to 10.130 or so as long as it can be done without interfering with others.
                        3. Attempt to use a wide robust mode to work through the interference.

                        It's unlikely that our flea powered radios would interfere with the MegaWatt othrs. Our bandwidth is very narrow and power is very low.

                        However,  a 1000, or 2000, cycle mode may be able squeeze enough data between the pulses to communicate.

                        If the othr isn't too strong, a psk31 signal seems to just about fit between the pulses and I've been able to make some contacts when the radar signal was on s7 or less, when it's up to s9 or better it's really tough to deal with.

                        The problem is that not everyone hears to the radar. So, using a wide mode would be almost impossible without risking interfering with people you can't hear because of the radar but who aren't experiencing interference from the radar.

                        Therefore, it appears to me that going below the radar, if that is possible, may be the best way to go.

                        1 kHz of space can hold a lot of psk31 signals. Maybe a secondary psk31 part of the band around 10.130 may not be a bad idea. 

                        At the very least it would be nice if from 2 to 5 kHz can be designated as a place for people to CQ on digital when 10.135 to 10.150 is clobbered by radar.

                        73 and thank you again for your input.





















                        To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                        From: gi7omy@...
                        Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:30:20 +0100
                        Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                         

                         

                        One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                         

                        Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                         

                        Daithi, GI7OMY

                         

                        From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                        Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                        To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                         

                         

                        Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                        As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                        My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                        I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                        So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                        Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                        Thanks for your help.



                        To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                        From: gi7omy@...
                        Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                        Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                         

                         

                        It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                         

                        You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                         

                        Daithi, GI7OMY

                         

                        From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                        Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                        To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                         

                         

                        The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                        I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                        Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                        Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                        Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                        73 and have a nice weekend.





















                         

                         

                      • Joe Brown
                        With all due respect, Military systems no matter the Country, pretty much do what they want. They could care less about the ITU, especially if they are on a
                        Message 11 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                          With all due respect, Military systems no matter the Country, pretty much do what they want. They could care less about the ITU, especially if they are on a mission..

                          I personally don't have a problem with this. Although we all like to operate on 30 meters, there ARE many other bands we can use.
                          73 – Joe W2JLB
                          

                          On 9/19/2010 1:00 AM, Scott Currier wrote:
                           

                          Thank you for the location of one of the OTHRs.

                          I do agree with you that if OTHRs are considered Fixed then there is nothing that we can do about them.

                          Even if the OTHRs were secondary like we are, we still have the right to lodge an interference complaint according to the ITU.

                          If the OTHR is not operating according to the ITU plans then IARU should put in a complaint to the offending government. Who knows, maybe the radar will move.

                          As for dealing with the radar we have a few choices, in no particular order.

                          1. shut the radio off and do something else or go to a different band.
                          2. Go lower in frequency and operate digital down to 10.130 or so as long as it can be done without interfering with others.
                          3. Attempt to use a wide robust mode to work through the interference.

                          It's unlikely that our flea powered radios would interfere with the MegaWatt othrs. Our bandwidth is very narrow and power is very low.

                          However,  a 1000, or 2000, cycle mode may be able squeeze enough data between the pulses to communicate.

                          If the othr isn't too strong, a psk31 signal seems to just about fit between the pulses and I've been able to make some contacts when the radar signal was on s7 or less, when it's up to s9 or better it's really tough to deal with.

                          The problem is that not everyone hears to the radar. So, using a wide mode would be almost impossible without risking interfering with people you can't hear because of the radar but who aren't experiencing interference from the radar.

                          Therefore, it appears to me that going below the radar, if that is possible, may be the best way to go.

                          1 kHz of space can hold a lot of psk31 signals. Maybe a secondary psk31 part of the band around 10.130 may not be a bad idea. 

                          At the very least it would be nice if from 2 to 5 kHz can be designated as a place for people to CQ on digital when 10.135 to 10.150 is clobbered by radar.

                          73 and thank you again for your input.






















                          To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                          From: gi7omy@...
                          Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:30:20 +0100
                          Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                           

                          One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                           

                          Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                           

                          Daithi, GI7OMY

                           

                          From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                          Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                          To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                           

                           

                          Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                          As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                          My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                          I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                          So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                          Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                          Thanks for your help.




                          To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                          From: gi7omy@...
                          Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                          Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                           

                           

                          It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                           

                          You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                           

                          Daithi, GI7OMY

                           

                          From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                          Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                          To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                           

                           

                          The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                          I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                          Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                          Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                          Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                          73 and have a nice weekend.






















                           


                        • Scott Currier
                          I agree with you Joe. I don t believe any of the complaints about the Russian Woodpecker ever did any good. However, I m trying to get a hold of someone who
                          Message 12 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                            I agree with you Joe. I don't believe any of the complaints about the "Russian Woodpecker" ever did any good.

                            However, I'm trying to get a hold of someone who deals with intruders at the ARRL and see what they say.

                            I think that as a general rule, the process for dealing with intruders should be followed, even if the complaints do not solve the problem. You never know, the operators of the OTHR may be willing to shift up 10 or 12 kHz and minimize or eliminate the interference they are causing, once they are told about it.

                            Maybe not.

                            If they get complaints from 30 different governments, they may decide that it may make more sense to move than to deal with the complaints.

                            I'll let everyone know what I find out if anything.

                            73 and good dx.
























                            To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                            From: w2jlb1@...
                            Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 08:59:49 -0400
                            Subject: Re: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                             
                            With all due respect, Military systems no matter the Country, pretty much do what they want. They could care less about the ITU, especially if they are on a mission..

                            I personally don't have a problem with this. Although we all like to operate on 30 meters, there ARE many other bands we can use.

                            73 – Joe W2JLB
                            

                            On 9/19/2010 1:00 AM, Scott Currier wrote:
                             
                            Thank you for the location of one of the OTHRs.

                            I do agree with you that if OTHRs are considered Fixed then there is nothing that we can do about them.

                            Even if the OTHRs were secondary like we are, we still have the right to lodge an interference complaint according to the ITU.

                            If the OTHR is not operating according to the ITU plans then IARU should put in a complaint to the offending government. Who knows, maybe the radar will move.

                            As for dealing with the radar we have a few choices, in no particular order.

                            1. shut the radio off and do something else or go to a different band.
                            2. Go lower in frequency and operate digital down to 10.130 or so as long as it can be done without interfering with others.
                            3. Attempt to use a wide robust mode to work through the interference.

                            It's unlikely that our flea powered radios would interfere with the MegaWatt othrs. Our bandwidth is very narrow and power is very low.

                            However,  a 1000, or 2000, cycle mode may be able squeeze enough data between the pulses to communicate.

                            If the othr isn't too strong, a psk31 signal seems to just about fit between the pulses and I've been able to make some contacts when the radar signal was on s7 or less, when it's up to s9 or better it's really tough to deal with.

                            The problem is that not everyone hears to the radar. So, using a wide mode would be almost impossible without risking interfering with people you can't hear because of the radar but who aren't experiencing interference from the radar.

                            Therefore, it appears to me that going below the radar, if that is possible, may be the best way to go.

                            1 kHz of space can hold a lot of psk31 signals. Maybe a secondary psk31 part of the band around 10.130 may not be a bad idea. 

                            At the very least it would be nice if from 2 to 5 kHz can be designated as a place for people to CQ on digital when 10.135 to 10.150 is clobbered by radar.

                            73 and thank you again for your input.























                            To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                            From: gi7omy@...
                            Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:30:20 +0100
                            Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                             

                            One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                             

                            Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                             

                            Daithi, GI7OMY

                             

                            From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                            Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                            To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                             

                             

                            Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                            As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                            My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                            I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                            So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                            Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                            Thanks for your help.




                            To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                            From: gi7omy@...
                            Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                            Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                             

                             

                            It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                             

                            You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                             

                            Daithi, GI7OMY

                             

                            From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                            Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                            To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                             

                             

                            The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                            I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                            Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                            Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                            Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                            73 and have a nice weekend.






















                             



                          • Andy obrien
                            does it sound like the same thing I hear on 60M ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVsND0zxRWQ Andy K3UK
                            Message 13 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                              does it sound like the same thing I hear on 60M ?

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVsND0zxRWQ

                              Andy K3UK


                              On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                               

                              The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                              I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                              Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                              Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                              Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                              73 and have a nice weekend.
























                            • Scott Currier
                              Thanks for the reply Don. Yeah, that OTHR back in the 80s was a real pain. Have you seen any of the pictures of that Duga 2 site that is rusting away abandoned
                              Message 14 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010
                                Thanks for the reply Don.

                                Yeah, that OTHR back in the 80s was a real pain.

                                Have you seen any of the pictures of that Duga 2 site that is rusting away abandoned not far from Chernobyl. Nice antenna array.

                                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Woodpecker

                                Some other sites with interesting pictures as well.

                                73

























                                To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                From: don@...
                                Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 17:33:05 +1200
                                Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                 

                                Scott a few months back here in zl we had a problem with othr from universities here in zl and Tasmania Australia , a complaint was sent and they where both told to move away from ham frequencies. They where not using a set frequency but running a scan  to find the best band to use at the time. Frequencies to scan where computer controlled  and not listened to first .

                                But the cyprus one  is military and you just cant beat them. They appear as a law unto them selves Like the wood pecker of the 80s lets just hope the power supply burns out.

                                Don zl1atb

                                 

                                From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                Sent: Sunday, 19 September 2010 5:01 p.m.
                                To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                 

                                 

                                Thank you for the location of one of the OTHRs.

                                I do agree with you that if OTHRs are considered Fixed then there is nothing that we can do about them.

                                Even if the OTHRs were secondary like we are, we still have the right to lodge an interference complaint according to the ITU.

                                If the OTHR is not operating according to the ITU plans then IARU should put in a complaint to the offending government. Who knows, maybe the radar will move.

                                As for dealing with the radar we have a few choices, in no particular order.

                                1. shut the radio off and do something else or go to a different band.
                                2. Go lower in frequency and operate digital down to 10.130 or so as long as it can be done without interfering with others.
                                3. Attempt to use a wide robust mode to work through the interference.

                                It's unlikely that our flea powered radios would interfere with the MegaWatt othrs. Our bandwidth is very narrow and power is very low.

                                However,  a 1000, or 2000, cycle mode may be able squeeze enough data between the pulses to communicate.

                                If the othr isn't too strong, a psk31 signal seems to just about fit between the pulses and I've been able to make some contacts when the radar signal was on s7 or less, when it's up to s9 or better it's really tough to deal with.

                                The problem is that not everyone hears to the radar. So, using a wide mode would be almost impossible without risking interfering with people you can't hear because of the radar but who aren't experiencing interference from the radar.

                                Therefore, it appears to me that going below the radar, if that is possible, may be the best way to go.

                                1 kHz of space can hold a lot of psk31 signals. Maybe a secondary psk31 part of the band around 10.130 may not be a bad idea. 

                                At the very least it would be nice if from 2 to 5 kHz can be designated as a place for people to CQ on digital when 10.135 to 10.150 is clobbered by radar.

                                73 and thank you again for your input.






















                                To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                From: gi7omy@...
                                Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 04:30:20 +0100
                                Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                 

                                 

                                One as far as I know is in Cyprus (and it’s military so it won’t appear on any plan). It’s just something we have to put up with really and can’t complain (secondary users means just that – the primary (which would include military) takes precedence

                                 

                                Intruders are something else (fishing boats, ‘free banders’ and so on)

                                 

                                Daithi, GI7OMY

                                 

                                From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                Sent: 19 September 2010 04:12
                                To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                 

                                 

                                Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                                As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                                My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                                I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                                So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                                Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                                Thanks for your help.



                                To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                From: gi7omy@...
                                Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                                Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                 

                                 

                                It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                                 

                                You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                                 

                                Daithi, GI7OMY

                                 

                                From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                                To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                 

                                 

                                The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                                I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                                Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                                Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                                Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                                73 and have a nice weekend.





















                                 

                                 


                              • Scott Currier
                                I was hearing that down on 60 as well. I thought it was a local PLC network. The type that you may use for a home network. The radar we are hearing is 40 kHz
                                Message 15 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010

                                  I was hearing that down on 60 as well. I thought it was a local PLC network. The type that you may use for a home network.

                                  The radar we are hearing is 40 kHz or so wide and has pulses about 30hz apart. A psk31 signal barely fits between the pulses.

                                  It sounds like a low frequency buzz. Very different from that signal.

                                  When the radar is strong it is very difficult to work through it.

                                  It usually covers the top 10, 15, or 20 kHz of 30 meters when it's running and can run for hours.

                                  I'm looking forward to being able to operate cw and digital on 30 meters. I have not operated that band yet.

                                  It will be interesting to see what the FCC does with the ARRL proposal.

                                  73 and good dx.

                                  Scott KT1B






















                                  To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: k3ukandy@...
                                  Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 18:23:17 -0400
                                  Subject: Re: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                   

                                  does it sound like the same thing I hear on 60M ?

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVsND0zxRWQ

                                  Andy K3UK



                                  On Sat, Sep 18, 2010 at 8:35 PM, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                                  I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                                  Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                                  Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                                  Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                                  73 and have a nice weekend.


























                                • Daithi
                                  30m Multi Mode Weekend The weekend of the 25 / 265h of September is the annual 30m Multi Mode Weekend. This weekend give Amateurs and SWL s alike the chance to
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Sep 19, 2010

                                    30m Multi Mode Weekend

                                     

                                    The weekend of the 25 / 265h of September is the annual 30m Multi Mode Weekend. This weekend give Amateurs and SWL’s alike the chance to participate in Activity on the 30m band.

                                     

                                    This weekend is a good opportunity for those that have Multimode software to use and Experiment some of the less used modes. Please bear in mind the 30m Region 1 band plan and also if calling CQ on a exotic or less heard mode during regular operation to be patient and call a number of times using the chosen mode as it may take some time for operators to actually find and decode the mode you have chosen to use.

                                     

                                    Please also note this is not a contest, however most stations active on Digi modes particularly on 30m will be a member of the 30 Meter Digital Group, membership to this group is free. A membership certificate is issued once an application has been processed, which can be printed. Each member of the Group receives a membership number on their certificate, these numbers usually get exchanged in QSO’s with Signal Reports and can be used for various Group issued awards and certificates etc.

                                     

                                    Please note this is not a contest Weekend the 30m band is Contest Free.

                                     

                                    More details on this Multi Mode weekend and membership of the 30 Meter Digital Group please check out the groups website at www.30mdg.net ______________________________________________

                                  • dl6xaz
                                    Hi Scott et al. although I am annoyed at times by the OTHR, I do not think that any of the intruder watch services maintained by fellow hams will/can do
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Sep 20, 2010
                                      Hi Scott et al.
                                      although I am annoyed at times by the OTHR, I do not think that any of the intruder watch services maintained by fellow hams will/can do anything about it. Because we are exposed to mostly military emissions, and I very much doubt that Whitehall will care about our concerns about their unit on Cyprus, even if it would mean for them to move some hundred Hertz up, to get out of our band(s). Military communications are not subject to international treaties, they can do as they please within their technical abilities.
                                      Remains to be seen which else interferences we shall be getting because more and more states and NGOs play around with kinds of OTHR, CODAR etc. e.g. Spain, Croatia etc.
                                      The action taken in VK against that university was an outstanding example what can be done against such intruders.
                                      Considering, however, that those radar emissions are sporadic compared to all kinds of other equipment which can be bought for home use and can ruin entire spectrums - baby phones, PLC, PL-television, cheap and nasty far east power supplies -, we waste our ink and energy, because the latter can be far worse in urban areas and kill this hobby.
                                      And how about those fishermen on the European Atlantic coast who "entertain" us with their eternal chatter on 30m, in mostly Spanish and French?
                                      cuagn - vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

                                      --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I agree with you Joe. I don't believe any of the complaints about the "Russian Woodpecker" ever did any good.
                                      >
                                      > However, I'm trying to get a hold of someone who deals with intruders at the ARRL and see what they say.
                                      >
                                      > I think that as a general rule, the process for dealing with intruders should be followed, even if the complaints do not solve the problem. You never know, the operators of the OTHR may be willing to shift up 10 or 12 kHz and minimize or eliminate the interference they are causing, once they are told about it.
                                      >
                                      > Maybe not.
                                      >
                                      > If they get complaints from 30 different governments, they may decide that it may make more sense to move than to deal with the complaints.
                                      >
                                      > I'll let everyone know what I find out if anything.
                                      >
                                      > 73 and good dx.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > -------------------snip --------------------
                                    • Scott Currier
                                      Hi Fred, thanks for the note, I agree with you. But, I am still curious as to what the people who handle intruder reports are going to say. They may tell me
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Sep 20, 2010
                                        Hi Fred, thanks for the note, I agree with you. But, I am still curious as to what the people who handle intruder reports are going to say. They may tell me that they have dealt with this before and you can either learn to live with it, or if you don't want to do that, you can always learn to live with it, and if that doesn't work, trying learning to live with it. :)

                                        You know, the OTHR is an opportunity or an excuse for another designer soundboard digital mode.

                                        Judging by what I see on the waterfall, there should be enough room between the pulses to carry on a conversation without using an excessive amount of bandwidth.

                                        I think that the space between pulses was just a little less than a psk31 signal, say 28 hz. A mode could be designed to work in between a few of those pulses. They appeared to be reasonably steady.

                                        On the plus side, the radar could easily take out our entire 50 kHz band. I suspect that the reason it doesn't, or at least I haven't see it do so, is that there are some fixed stations operating constantly within 10.1 to 10.15 and it's possible that they don't want to interfere with those station.

                                        73 and catch you on 30 again. If you hear the radar, look for me cqing below the radar if there is a clear spot.


























                                        To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                        From: dl6xaz@...
                                        Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:32:09 +0000
                                        Subject: [30MDG] Re: Radar issues.

                                         
                                        Hi Scott et al.
                                        although I am annoyed at times by the OTHR, I do not think that any of the intruder watch services maintained by fellow hams will/can do anything about it. Because we are exposed to mostly military emissions, and I very much doubt that Whitehall will care about our concerns about their unit on Cyprus, even if it would mean for them to move some hundred Hertz up, to get out of our band(s). Military communications are not subject to international treaties, they can do as they please within their technical abilities.
                                        Remains to be seen which else interferences we shall be getting because more and more states and NGOs play around with kinds of OTHR, CODAR etc. e.g. Spain, Croatia etc.
                                        The action taken in VK against that university was an outstanding example what can be done against such intruders.
                                        Considering, however, that those radar emissions are sporadic compared to all kinds of other equipment which can be bought for home use and can ruin entire spectrums - baby phones, PLC, PL-television, cheap and nasty far east power supplies -, we waste our ink and energy, because the latter can be far worse in urban areas and kill this hobby.
                                        And how about those fishermen on the European Atlantic coast who "entertain" us with their eternal chatter on 30m, in mostly Spanish and French?
                                        cuagn - vy73 Fred DL6XAZ

                                        --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > I agree with you Joe. I don't believe any of the complaints about the "Russian Woodpecker" ever did any good.
                                        >
                                        > However, I'm trying to get a hold of someone who deals with intruders at the ARRL and see what they say.
                                        >
                                        > I think that as a general rule, the process for dealing with intruders should be followed, even if the complaints do not solve the problem. You never know, the operators of the OTHR may be willing to shift up 10 or 12 kHz and minimize or eliminate the interference they are causing, once they are told about it.
                                        >
                                        > Maybe not.
                                        >
                                        > If they get complaints from 30 different governments, they may decide that it may make more sense to move than to deal with the complaints.
                                        >
                                        > I'll let everyone know what I find out if anything.
                                        >
                                        > 73 and good dx.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > -------------------snip --------------------


                                      • dl6xaz
                                        Hi Scott, indeed I have been talking to the bandwatch people here in DL about OTHR, and I was told that it is useless to claim interference; it would be
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Sep 20, 2010
                                          Hi Scott,
                                          indeed I have been talking to the bandwatch people here in DL about OTHR, and I was told that it is useless to claim interference; it would be behaving like D. Quixote. I am an old fool but surely not going to mount an old Rocinante for that purpose ... :-)
                                          As for QSOs despite OTHR, I can recommend using Contestia: it works, as have tested it under really bad interference with 8/250. Sure Olivia will perform equally well. As for RTTYM and Domino, I got doubts, as they would have to be tested.
                                          Yessir, shall look out for you - and all others from beyond the pond!
                                          vy73 Fred DL6XAZ


                                          --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Currier <scott_currier@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Fred, thanks for the note, I agree with you. But, I am still curious as to what the people who handle intruder reports are going to say. They may tell me that they have dealt with this before and you can either learn to live with it, or if you don't want to do that, you can always learn to live with it, and if that doesn't work, trying learning to live with it. :)
                                          >
                                          > You know, the OTHR is an opportunity or an excuse for another designer soundboard digital mode.
                                          >
                                          > Judging by what I see on the waterfall, there should be enough room between the pulses to carry on a conversation without using an excessive amount of bandwidth.
                                          >
                                          > I think that the space between pulses was just a little less than a psk31 signal, say 28 hz. A mode could be designed to work in between a few of those pulses. They appeared to be reasonably steady.
                                          >
                                          > On the plus side, the radar could easily take out our entire 50 kHz band. I suspect that the reason it doesn't, or at least I haven't see it do so, is that there are some fixed stations operating constantly within 10.1 to 10.15 and it's possible that they don't want to interfere with those station.
                                          >
                                          > 73 and catch you on 30 again. If you hear the radar, look for me cqing below the radar if there is a clear spot.
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          > To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                          > From: dl6xaz@...
                                          > Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 07:32:09 +0000
                                          > Subject: [30MDG] Re: Radar issues.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
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                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Scott et al.
                                          >
                                          > although I am annoyed at times by the OTHR, I do not think that any of the intruder watch services maintained by fellow hams will/can do anything about it. Because we are exposed to mostly military emissions, and I very much doubt that Whitehall will care about our concerns about their unit on Cyprus, even if it would mean for them to move some hundred Hertz up, to get out of our band(s). Military communications are not subject to international treaties, they can do as they please within their technical abilities.
                                          >
                                          > Remains to be seen which else interferences we shall be getting because more and more states and NGOs play around with kinds of OTHR, CODAR etc. e.g. Spain, Croatia etc.
                                          >
                                          > The action taken in VK against that university was an outstanding example what can be done against such intruders.
                                          >
                                          > Considering, however, that those radar emissions are sporadic compared to all kinds of other equipment which can be bought for home use and can ruin entire spectrums - baby phones, PLC, PL-television, cheap and nasty far east power supplies -, we waste our ink and energy, because the latter can be far worse in urban areas and kill this hobby.
                                          >
                                          > And how about those fishermen on the European Atlantic coast who "entertain" us with their eternal chatter on 30m, in mostly Spanish and French?
                                          >
                                          > cuagn - vy73 Fred DL6XAZ
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Scott Currier <scott_currier@> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > I agree with you Joe. I don't believe any of the complaints about the "Russian Woodpecker" ever did any good.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > However, I'm trying to get a hold of someone who deals with intruders at the ARRL and see what they say.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > I think that as a general rule, the process for dealing with intruders should be followed, even if the complaints do not solve the problem. You never know, the operators of the OTHR may be willing to shift up 10 or 12 kHz and minimize or eliminate the interference they are causing, once they are told about it.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > Maybe not.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > If they get complaints from 30 different governments, they may decide that it may make more sense to move than to deal with the complaints.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > I'll let everyone know what I find out if anything.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > 73 and good dx.
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          > > -------------------snip --------------------
                                          >
                                        • Lehman, Rex
                                          Sure hope they keep it off this week end. It was 5-9 plus all of Saturday night. Rex Lehman Quality Assurance Measurement Specialties, Inc. 2670 Indian Ripple
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Sep 20, 2010

                                            Sure hope they keep it off this week end. It was 5-9 plus all of Saturday night.

                                             

                                            Rex Lehman

                                            Quality Assurance

                                            Measurement Specialties, Inc.

                                            2670 Indian Ripple Rd

                                            Dayton Ohio , 43140

                                            Office +1.937.427.1231 ext. 292


                                            From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                            Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 11:12 PM
                                            To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                             

                                             

                                            Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                                            As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                                            My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                                            I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                                            So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                                            Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                                            Thanks for your help.



                                            To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: gi7omy@...
                                            Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                                            Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                             

                                             

                                            It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                                             

                                            You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                                             

                                            Daithi, GI7OMY

                                             

                                            From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                            Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                                            To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                            Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                             

                                             

                                            The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                                            I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                                            Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                                            Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                                            Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                                            73 and have a nice weekend.






















                                             

                                          • Scott Currier
                                            Yes, it was horrible for hours on end. I wasn t really in a cw mood so after not hearing any dx that I wanted on cw I went up and made a few contacts around
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Sep 20, 2010
                                              Yes, it was horrible for hours on end.

                                              I wasn't really in a cw mood so after not hearing any dx that I wanted on cw I went up and made a few contacts around 10.134 on RTTY and MFSK16. I was able to make a few jt65 contacts by going down 500 from 10.137  where it was a little weaker. It seemed that the radar was strongest about 138 to above 150.

                                              I think that the best solution may be to try to operate digital below the radar. I don't like the idea of trying to call cq with a wide mode without being able to check and see if the frequency is clear. It could be in use by hams who are not affected by the radar.

                                              There was room down around .134 so that's where I went. I was happy to work an LU on RTTY. Needed LU on 30 and needed it on RTTY as well.

                                              73 and have a nice day.

























                                              To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: rex.lehman@...
                                              Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2010 12:11:25 -0400
                                              Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                               

                                              Sure hope they keep it off this week end. It was 5-9 plus all of Saturday night.

                                               

                                              Rex Lehman

                                              Quality Assurance

                                              Measurement Specialties, Inc.

                                              2670 Indian Ripple Rd

                                              Dayton Ohio, 43140

                                              Office +1.937.427.1231 ext. 292


                                              From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                              Sent: Saturday, September 18, 2010 11:12 PM
                                              To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                               

                                               

                                              Thank you Daithi, any idea of where the sites are?

                                              As a secondary user we are required to protect the primary user and accept interference from the primary user, which is the so called "fixed" radio service. I have been unable to find a definition of this radio service so I can't say whether or not OTHR falls within this service.

                                              My understanding is that the fixed radio service on hf is usually digital links, mostly narrowband, between fixed stations.

                                              I was checking the ITU's website to try to find out where OTHR is allocated and what radio service is falls under.

                                              So far it appears to fall under "radiodetermination" but I'm not 100 percent sure.

                                              Anyone have any links that define the different radio services. Fixed, mobile, etc, some are obvious but I'd like to know for sure what radio service OTHR falls under.

                                              Thanks for your help.




                                              To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: gi7omy@...
                                              Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2010 01:59:10 +0100
                                              Subject: RE: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                               

                                               

                                              It’s Over the Horizon Radar (from a couple of sites).

                                               

                                              You have to remember that we’re only secondary users of the band and have to put up with it (and not cause any interference)

                                               

                                              Daithi, GI7OMY

                                               

                                              From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Currier
                                              Sent: 19 September 2010 01:36
                                              To: 30mdg@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: [30MDG] Radar issues.

                                               

                                               

                                              The radar signal is quite strong tonite here in FN42. It's running from about 10.136 to above .150. At times as strong as ten over s9.

                                              I was able to make some Q's in JT65 despite the interference and went down to about 10.135 and made a RTTY and MFSK16 Q as well.

                                              Has anyone tried one of the 2000 cycle modes against the radar to see how well it did or didn't get through?

                                              Otherwise, I guess the only thing to do is to move below the radar. As long as we're not stepping on anyone's toes, that shouldn't be a problem.

                                              Does anyone know the source of the radar?

                                              73 and have a nice weekend.






















                                               


                                            • ka8oqf
                                              ... If I can pull some time off, I plan on seeing what kind of havoc we can raise out here on 30m... No JT65 yet, the computers we use are standalone and don t
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Sep 20, 2010
                                                --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "Daithi" <gi7omy@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > 30m Multi Mode Weekend

                                                If I can pull some time off, I plan on seeing what kind of havoc we can raise out here on 30m...

                                                No JT65 yet, the computers we use are standalone and don't sync up with teh Intertubes for time...but we can run boatloads of the other modes with MultiPSK.

                                                And yes, I will brush up on the use of RSID.


                                                For DARA Club Stn W8BI
                                                Charlie KA8OQF
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