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Re: [30MDG] New Antenna for 30 Meters coming by mid summer...

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  • Peter Eckersberger
    Hi David, Thank you for the detailed info and congrats for the progress/achievement on your work. As of the photo ... Don t worry. I m not getting it at all
    Message 1 of 25 , May 14, 2013
      Hi David,

      Thank you for the detailed info and congrats for the progress/achievement on your work.

      As of the photo ... Don't worry. I'm not getting it at all :'( . Looks like this "Yahoogroops"-address doesn't accept attachments.

      On the other hand I really would like to see your work. I wonder if you could send the photo via my direct email address <oe3epw@...>. Would appreciate that. TIA.

      Have a nice day.


      73 de Pez,  OE3EPW
       <oe3epw@...>

      AR  SK

      Am 14.05.2013 01:46, schrieb David Cole:
      Oops, I uploaded the wrong photo, Just reverse the description of which
      pole is for which array...  The 30 Meter 4 square is closest to the
      camera, and the 40 two element is furtherest away,...
      

    • David Cole
      I ll put them up on my web page, and then post here when ready... Should be later today Peter... -- Thanks, Dave For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups
      Message 2 of 25 , May 14, 2013
        I'll put them up on my web page, and then post here when ready...
        Should be later today Peter...
        --
        Thanks,
        Dave
        For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups see:
        http://www.nk7z.net



        On Tue, 2013-05-14 at 09:40 +0200, Peter Eckersberger wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi David,
        >
        > Thank you for the detailed info and congrats for the
        > progress/achievement on your work.
        >
        > As of the photo ... Don't worry. I'm not getting it at all :'( . Looks
        > like this "Yahoogroops"-address doesn't accept attachments.
        >
        > On the other hand I really would like to see your work. I wonder if
        > you could send the photo via my direct email address <oe3epw@...>.
        > Would appreciate that. TIA.
        >
        > Have a nice day.
        >
        >
        > 73 de Pez, OE3EPW
        > <oe3epw@...>
        >
        > AR SK
        >
        >
        > Am 14.05.2013 01:46, schrieb David Cole:
        >
        > > Oops, I uploaded the wrong photo, Just reverse the description of which
        > > pole is for which array... The 30 Meter 4 square is closest to the
        > > camera, and the 40 two element is furtherest away,...
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • David Cole
        Hi Peter, OK I have things up on the web site now... Lots of photos, etc... See: http://www.nk7z.net I would be interested in your thoughts/suggestions, (as
        Message 3 of 25 , May 14, 2013
          Hi Peter,

          OK I have things up on the web site now... Lots of photos, etc...

          See:
          http://www.nk7z.net

          I would be interested in your thoughts/suggestions, (as well as anyone
          else), as you are actually running an array you have constructed.
          --
          Thanks,
          Dave
          For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups see:
          http://www.nk7z.net



          On Tue, 2013-05-14 at 09:40 +0200, Peter Eckersberger wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi David,
          >
          > Thank you for the detailed info and congrats for the
          > progress/achievement on your work.
          >
          > As of the photo ... Don't worry. I'm not getting it at all :'( . Looks
          > like this "Yahoogroops"-address doesn't accept attachments.
          >
          > On the other hand I really would like to see your work. I wonder if
          > you could send the photo via my direct email address <oe3epw@...>.
          > Would appreciate that. TIA.
          >
          > Have a nice day.
          >
          >
          > 73 de Pez, OE3EPW
          > <oe3epw@...>
          >
          > AR SK
          >
          >
          > Am 14.05.2013 01:46, schrieb David Cole:
          >
          > > Oops, I uploaded the wrong photo, Just reverse the description of which
          > > pole is for which array... The 30 Meter 4 square is closest to the
          > > camera, and the 40 two element is furtherest away,...
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Peter Eckersberger
          Hi Dave, I just visited your web-site. Looks really professional. The only thing which puzzles a bit are all those nearby buildings. I m crossing my fingers
          Message 4 of 25 , May 14, 2013
            Hi Dave,

            I just visited your web-site. Looks really professional. The only thing which puzzles a bit are all those nearby buildings. I'm crossing my fingers that people living there are BCI/TVI resistent ;-) . Anyway, wish you fun and success with the rest of your work and looking forward to meet you on 30.


            73 de Pez,  OE3EPW
             <oe3epw@...>

            AR  SK



            Am 14.05.2013 18:21, schrieb David Cole:
            Hi Peter,
            
            OK I have things up on the web site now...  Lots of photos, etc...
            
            See:
            http://www.nk7z.net
            
            I would be interested in your thoughts/suggestions, (as well as anyone
            else), as you are actually running an array you have constructed.
            

          • David Cole
            Yes... I hope so as well... That was one of the reasons the 30 Meter array ended up where it was, we can only run 200 watts here, so I expect that will not
            Message 5 of 25 , May 15, 2013
              Yes... I hope so as well... That was one of the reasons the 30 Meter
              array ended up where it was, we can only run 200 watts here, so I expect
              that will not pose an issue...
              --
              Thanks,
              Dave
              For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups see:
              http://www.nk7z.net



              On Wed, 2013-05-15 at 07:56 +0200, Peter Eckersberger wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Dave,
              >
              > I just visited your web-site. Looks really professional. The only
              > thing which puzzles a bit are all those nearby buildings. I'm crossing
              > my fingers that people living there are BCI/TVI resistent ;-) .
              > Anyway, wish you fun and success with the rest of your work and
              > looking forward to meet you on 30.
              >
              >
              > 73 de Pez, OE3EPW
              > <oe3epw@...>
              >
              > AR SK
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Am 14.05.2013 18:21, schrieb David Cole:
              >
              > > Hi Peter,
              > >
              > > OK I have things up on the web site now... Lots of photos, etc...
              > >
              > > See:
              > > http://www.nk7z.net
              > >
              > > I would be interested in your thoughts/suggestions, (as well as anyone
              > > else), as you are actually running an array you have constructed.
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • AC5JV,GEORGE
              HELLO ALL    i have question on antenna i have ? ok , i m using my 75m end-fed which is 60 feet long, on 30 meters , ok you do the math on it and its just
              Message 6 of 25 , May 15, 2013
                HELLO ALL "
                   i have question on antenna i have ?
                ok , i'm using my 75m end-fed which is 60 feet long, on 30 meters , ok you do the math on it and its just a little over 5/8 wave on 30m.
                NOW MY QUESTION ?
                  you hear 5/8 wave 2m antennas are supposed to be 3db gain ,would my 5/8 wave on 30m [75m end-fed antenna] will it have gain ?seeing how its 5/8 wave long.
                 i'm feeding it with 50 foot of rg-213 and of course using a mfj949e manual tuner on it .
                    gain or no gain , either way it works for me, i have noticed the 's' unit noise floor is less than on my 160 meter 1/4 wave end-fed.but get about the same 'rx/tx' on it ,
                 thought be interesting question .
                         thank you ac5jv,george
                    
                   

                 
                AC5JV, GEORGE
                 146.985 RPT INFO
                http://www.kc5dbh.freewebspace.com/
                   HAM TRADERS GROUP
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neokhamtraders/
                    KD5KUF PAWN SHOP
                http://www.siloamspringspawn.com/


                “The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets.”— Will Rogers

              • Don Leitch
                Ah George 5/8 gain over what ? A standard dipole fed with a tuner? Surely a full length dipole tuned to perfection with no ATU would out perform the first. I
                Message 7 of 25 , May 15, 2013

                  Ah George 5/8 gain over what ? A standard dipole fed with a tuner?

                  Surely a full length dipole  tuned to perfection with no ATU would out perform the first.

                  I think that's why, we then use full length  loops, and arrays, and beams to get that magical gain, and multiple verticals of course with huge ground radials on salt laden  ground. Ahhhhh don’t I wish

                  Don zl1atb

                   

                   

                  From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of AC5JV,GEORGE
                  Sent: Thursday, 16 May 2013 1:58 a.m.
                  To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [30MDG] Re: New Antenna for 30 Meters coming by mid summer...

                   

                   

                  HELLO ALL "
                     i have question on antenna i have ?
                  ok , i'm using my 75m end-fed which is 60 feet long, on 30 meters , ok you do the math on it and its just a little over 5/8 wave on 30m.
                  NOW MY QUESTION ?
                    you hear 5/8 wave 2m antennas are supposed to be 3db gain ,would my 5/8 wave on 30m [75m end-fed antenna] will it have gain ?seeing how its 5/8 wave long.
                   i'm feeding it with 50 foot of rg-213 and of course using a mfj949e manual tuner on it .
                      gain or no gain , either way it works for me, i have noticed the 's' unit noise floor is less than on my 160 meter 1/4 wave end-fed.but get about the same 'rx/tx' on it ,
                   thought be interesting question .
                           thank you ac5jv,george
                      
                     

                   

                   

                  AC5JV, GEORGE
                   146.985 RPT INFO
                  http://www.kc5dbh.freewebspace.com/
                     HAM TRADERS GROUP
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neokhamtraders/
                      KD5KUF PAWN SHOP
                  http://www.siloamspringspawn.com/


                  “The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets.”— Will Rogers

                • David Cole
                  Also, what is the height? I broke out EZNEC, and things didn t look good.... -- Thanks, Dave For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups see:
                  Message 8 of 25 , May 15, 2013
                    Also, what is the height? I broke out EZNEC, and things didn't look
                    good....
                    --
                    Thanks,
                    Dave
                    For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups see:
                    http://www.nk7z.net



                    On Thu, 2013-05-16 at 08:44 +1200, Don Leitch wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Ah George 5/8 gain over what ? A standard dipole fed with a tuner?
                    >
                    > Surely a full length dipole tuned to perfection with no ATU would out
                    > perform the first.
                    >
                    > I think that's why, we then use full length loops, and arrays, and
                    > beams to get that magical gain, and multiple verticals of course with
                    > huge ground radials on salt laden ground. Ahhhhh don’t I wish
                    >
                    > Don zl1atb
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > From: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:30MDG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
                    > Of AC5JV,GEORGE
                    > Sent: Thursday, 16 May 2013 1:58 a.m.
                    > To: 30MDG@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [30MDG] Re: New Antenna for 30 Meters coming by mid summer...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > HELLO ALL "
                    > i have question on antenna i have ?
                    > ok , i'm using my 75m end-fed which is 60 feet long, on 30 meters , ok
                    > you do the math on it and its just a little over 5/8 wave on 30m.
                    > NOW MY QUESTION ?
                    > you hear 5/8 wave 2m antennas are supposed to be 3db gain ,would my
                    > 5/8 wave on 30m [75m end-fed antenna] will it have gain ?seeing how
                    > its 5/8 wave long.
                    > i'm feeding it with 50 foot of rg-213 and of course using a mfj949e
                    > manual tuner on it .
                    > gain or no gain , either way it works for me, i have noticed the
                    > 's' unit noise floor is less than on my 160 meter 1/4 wave end-fed.but
                    > get about the same 'rx/tx' on it ,
                    > thought be interesting question .
                    > thank you ac5jv,george
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > AC5JV, GEORGE
                    > 146.985 RPT INFO
                    > http://www.kc5dbh.freewebspace.com/
                    > HAM TRADERS GROUP
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neokhamtraders/
                    > KD5KUF PAWN SHOP
                    > http://www.siloamspringspawn.com/
                    >
                    >
                    > “The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get
                    > worse every time Congress meets.”— Will Rogers
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • kleks05
                    inline... ... but..but.. 2m 5/8 is usually vertical. is your end -fed a vertical antenna ?? yes, a 5/8 will have a bit more flattened torus (doughnut) shape,
                    Message 9 of 25 , May 16, 2013
                      inline...

                      --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "AC5JV,GEORGE" <ac5jv@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > HELLO ALL "
                      >    i have question on antenna i have ?
                      > ok , i'm using my 75m end-fed which is 60 feet long, on 30 meters , ok you do the math on it and its just a little over 5/8 wave on 30m.
                      > NOW MY QUESTION ?
                      >   you hear 5/8 wave 2m antennas are supposed to be 3db gain ,would my 5/8 wave on 30m [75m end-fed antenna] will it have gain ?seeing how its 5/8 wave long.


                      but..but.. 2m 5/8 is usually vertical. is your end -fed a vertical antenna ??

                      yes, a 5/8 will have a bit more flattened torus (doughnut) shape, when radiator is vertical and have a decent ground plane ( car, radial system); a horizontally oriented 5/8 radiator, with so-so ground system wil have a very disturbed pattern. yes, it will show gain in some directions - and huge attenuation in other directions.

                      For space limited, tower deprived I would recommend delta loop - used one when in HOA space, hiding it in the trees. the beauty of Delta is that it can be quite low above the ground - my base was about 8 ft above ground. Peak was at about 30 ft, and I was able to throw a rope over tree by myself ( with a hammer at the end of the rope:-).

                      >  i'm feeding it with 50 foot of rg-213 and of course using a mfj949e manual tuner on it .
                      >     gain or no gain , either way it works for me, i have noticed the 's' unit noise floor is less than on my 160 meter 1/4 wave end-fed.but get about the same 'rx/tx' on it ,
                      >  thought be interesting question .
                      >          thank you ac5jv,george
                      >     
                      >    
                      >

                      K4ED (Mark) rules of the antennas:
                      - any antenna is better then no antenna, and will show some gain over a dummy load;
                      - any resonant antenna is better then a dummy load;
                      - once you are on the air, the path of improvements is limited by your creativity, financial resources and XYL approval. Full steam ahead !


                      >
                      >  
                      > AC5JV, GEORGE

                      vy 73 de KU1T
                      _zjt
                    • Don
                      David NK7Z, Good luck on your 30m 4square vertical project. Please keep us posted on your progress either by postings or picture links and when completed -
                      Message 10 of 25 , May 26, 2013
                        David NK7Z,

                        Good luck on your 30m 4square vertical project. Please keep us posted on your progress either by postings or picture links and when completed - maybe your results too.

                        I can confirm that Pez OE3EPW has a big signal with his 4square vertical array - his signal is one of the biggest coming out of EU on the 30m band from what I see from here (EN50dp using 2 ele yagi)...and many times the only 30m EU signal I see/copy when the path is poor (no matter what mode...one night on RTTY he liked to blow me out of my chair with a 20 over signal on what I thought was a dead path to EU!).

                        On a lighter note maybe that is why Pez has his verticals on rims/wheels that way when the other EU ops get tired of him working the World he can either hide them quickly or he has a way to quickly get out of town! hi

                        Have fun and I think you are in for some fun with your project...30m a great band.

                        Don KB9UMT 30MDG#0001
                        www.30mdg.net

                        --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Peter Eckersberger <oe3epw@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi David,
                        >
                        > Wish you fun and success with your antenna project. BTW ... I myself
                        > didn't dig any holes at all. For the 4 bases I simply put 4 old car
                        > wheels (rims plus rubber; leavings of a Honda Civic) onto the ground,
                        > put an empty champagne bottle in the center of the rim and filled the
                        > rest of the rims with gravel to get the bottles fixed. The vertical
                        > radiator tube is put over the bottleneck and guyed with 3 Kevlar guy
                        > ropes in shape of an equilateral triangle. By doing it that way the
                        > antenna can be build, moved and removed quite quickly without any
                        > problems. It didn't even take half a day to have those 4 verticals up
                        > and running :-D .
                        >
                        >
                        > 73 de Pez, OE3EPW
                        > <oe3epw@...>
                        >
                        > AR SK
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Am 09.05.2013 05:06, schrieb David Cole:
                        > > Hi,
                        > >
                        > > I am a bit worried about that... I understand that the RFI will
                        > > probably not be low angle, so the pattern will be "different". I think
                        > > the best thing is to just build it and try... I am working on the first
                        > > hole today... I of course found a HUGE tree root right where the main
                        > > antenna goes... Sigh... This hole sets the stage for five more
                        > > holes... Four for the four square on 30 meters, and two for the 40
                        > > meter two element array... Can't wait to get the new antenna in
                        > > place...
                        > >
                        > > Once there, I will tune it for 40 meters, then test it compared to the
                        > > GAP Challenger... After that, I will re-tune it for 30 Meters and test
                        > > it against the really poor dipole I have set up for 30 meters...
                        > >
                        > > After that, I will return it to 40 meter operation, and add the second
                        > > 40 Meter element, then test that against the first single element...
                        > > What fun!
                        > >
                        > > Once the 40 Meter antenna is running, I will start on teh four square
                        > > for 30 Meters... :)
                        > >
                        >
                      • Don
                        Hi George AC5JV, I think you have often posted your noise floor was just too high to hear signals on 30m and this antenna seems to have helped with that so
                        Message 11 of 25 , May 26, 2013
                          Hi George AC5JV,

                          I think you have often posted your noise floor was just too high to hear signals on 30m and this antenna seems to have helped with that so good on that!

                          I forgot to post our contact a few weeks ago so I guess I should post it now that this antenna of yours did quite well picking up my signal here in EN50 Peoria IL on Saturday - so well and such a good path that we made a nice contact with me using my dummy load in the basement! Thanks for the 30m dummy load contact!

                          I think from what I see from here when on the 30m band that plain and simple for the PSK section of 30m the band is just under used in NA - sure some traces here and there in the early mornings or afternoons but nothing like the other bands and what is interesting is that 30m has some great paths and we have proved that over and over - not sure why NA is asleep on 30m but it is what it is so it's not always the antenna, paths, etc but just no interest for whatever reason not to use the 30m band (keep in mind trying a different digital mode might help - JT65, WSJT-JT9-1 modes seem to have more 30m traffic now that PSK section of the band).

                          Thanks
                          Don KB9UMT 30MDG#0001
                          www.30mdg.net

                          --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, "AC5JV,GEORGE" <ac5jv@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > HELLO ALL "
                          >    i have question on antenna i have ?
                          > ok , i'm using my 75m end-fed which is 60 feet long, on 30 meters , ok you do the math on it and its just a little over 5/8 wave on 30m.
                          > NOW MY QUESTION ?
                          >   you hear 5/8 wave 2m antennas are supposed to be 3db gain ,would my 5/8 wave on 30m [75m end-fed antenna] will it have gain ?seeing how its 5/8 wave long.
                          >  i'm feeding it with 50 foot of rg-213 and of course using a mfj949e manual tuner on it .
                          >     gain or no gain , either way it works for me, i have noticed the 's' unit noise floor is less than on my 160 meter 1/4 wave end-fed.but get about the same 'rx/tx' on it ,
                          >  thought be interesting question .
                          >          thank you ac5jv,george
                          >     
                          >    
                          >
                          >
                          >  
                          > AC5JV, GEORGE
                          >  146.985 RPT INFO
                          > http://www.kc5dbh.freewebspace.com/
                          >    HAM TRADERS GROUP
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/neokhamtraders/
                          >     KD5KUF PAWN SHOP
                          > http://www.siloamspringspawn.com/
                          >
                          >
                          > “The only difference between death and taxes is that death doesn't get worse every time Congress meets.”â€" Will Rogers
                          >
                        • David Cole
                          Hi Don, Thanks for the encouragement! Yes, the entire wheel rim thing came about, AFTER I had holes dug and concrete poured! :) Wish I had thought of that
                          Message 12 of 25 , May 26, 2013
                            Hi Don,

                            Thanks for the encouragement! Yes, the entire wheel rim thing came
                            about, AFTER I had holes dug and concrete poured! :) Wish I had
                            thought of that prior to all of that, oh well...

                            The current status is on hold for a few more days, the rains have
                            returned, and I am letting the ground get soaked prior to digging the
                            feed line trenches, etc.

                            I have decided to run all the main feed-lines to my outbuilding, ( after
                            phasing), then from there, an antenna switch and to the shack... That
                            way, I can add tuners, etc and have them under cover later... So... I
                            will be renting a trenching machine soon, maybe as early as next week.
                            Once that is done, I will then mount up Vertical #1, construct the
                            radial field, measuring all the way, then post results. As soon as that
                            is done, I'll re-tune it for 30 meters!

                            I am currently building a Christman feed for the 40 meter array...

                            --
                            Thanks,
                            Dave
                            For Amateur Radio equipment reviews and setups see:
                            http://www.nk7z.net



                            On Sun, 2013-05-26 at 13:14 +0000, Don wrote:
                            > David NK7Z,
                            >
                            > Good luck on your 30m 4square vertical project. Please keep us posted on your progress either by postings or picture links and when completed - maybe your results too.
                            >
                            > I can confirm that Pez OE3EPW has a big signal with his 4square vertical array - his signal is one of the biggest coming out of EU on the 30m band from what I see from here (EN50dp using 2 ele yagi)...and many times the only 30m EU signal I see/copy when the path is poor (no matter what mode...one night on RTTY he liked to blow me out of my chair with a 20 over signal on what I thought was a dead path to EU!).
                            >
                            > On a lighter note maybe that is why Pez has his verticals on rims/wheels that way when the other EU ops get tired of him working the World he can either hide them quickly or he has a way to quickly get out of town! hi
                            >
                            > Have fun and I think you are in for some fun with your project...30m a great band.
                            >
                            > Don KB9UMT 30MDG#0001
                            > www.30mdg.net
                            >
                            > --- In 30MDG@yahoogroups.com, Peter Eckersberger <oe3epw@...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi David,
                            > >
                            > > Wish you fun and success with your antenna project. BTW ... I myself
                            > > didn't dig any holes at all. For the 4 bases I simply put 4 old car
                            > > wheels (rims plus rubber; leavings of a Honda Civic) onto the ground,
                            > > put an empty champagne bottle in the center of the rim and filled the
                            > > rest of the rims with gravel to get the bottles fixed. The vertical
                            > > radiator tube is put over the bottleneck and guyed with 3 Kevlar guy
                            > > ropes in shape of an equilateral triangle. By doing it that way the
                            > > antenna can be build, moved and removed quite quickly without any
                            > > problems. It didn't even take half a day to have those 4 verticals up
                            > > and running :-D .
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > 73 de Pez, OE3EPW
                            > > <oe3epw@...>
                            > >
                            > > AR SK
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Am 09.05.2013 05:06, schrieb David Cole:
                            > > > Hi,
                            > > >
                            > > > I am a bit worried about that... I understand that the RFI will
                            > > > probably not be low angle, so the pattern will be "different". I think
                            > > > the best thing is to just build it and try... I am working on the first
                            > > > hole today... I of course found a HUGE tree root right where the main
                            > > > antenna goes... Sigh... This hole sets the stage for five more
                            > > > holes... Four for the four square on 30 meters, and two for the 40
                            > > > meter two element array... Can't wait to get the new antenna in
                            > > > place...
                            > > >
                            > > > Once there, I will tune it for 40 meters, then test it compared to the
                            > > > GAP Challenger... After that, I will re-tune it for 30 Meters and test
                            > > > it against the really poor dipole I have set up for 30 meters...
                            > > >
                            > > > After that, I will return it to 40 meter operation, and add the second
                            > > > 40 Meter element, then test that against the first single element...
                            > > > What fun!
                            > > >
                            > > > Once the 40 Meter antenna is running, I will start on teh four square
                            > > > for 30 Meters... :)
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Please join in with us on the 30 Meter Band. When in the shack use the 30 mtr digital Spots page made possible by Laurie VK3AMA
                            >
                            > http://hamspots.net/30mdg/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
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