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Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class

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  • Dennis Peck
    Yes Jim you are correct on the comments, they are concerns that are noticed and we are glad the OD is being done, just feel some concerns need to be brought to
    Message 1 of 41 , Apr 1, 2011
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      Yes Jim you are correct on the comments, they are concerns that are noticed and we are glad the OD is being done, just feel some concerns need to be brought to surface so who ever needs to do something can get it done on a even and fair basis.
      Well put Jim!
      Dennis
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 2:17 PM
      Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class

       

      Peter (and the others on the committees):

      Your time and efforts are appreciated.  I hope you take my (and as I read them) the other posts as constructive comments (note that I did not say criticism) and in-put.  Creating a class is a challenge requiring great time and commitment.  I appreciate what you and the others are doing and assume (hope) that other posters share this sentiment.

      My take away from today's several posts is:  get a US builder certified ASAP, and also (if it has not already been done) get input from builders other than Charger.

      Sent from my mobile phone 
      Jim Reiman
      (847) 778-2195 (cell)

      On Mar 31, 2011, at 3:06 PM, Andrew <sirdrew01@...> wrote:

       

      Great discussions here... I have been and outsider to the class, and I will continue to be an outsider.
       
      I think it's important for the 2.4OD directors to hear this & put this in the process....
       
      As a US resident considering purchasing into the class, my decission was to wait until summer in New York state is upon us - I will now wait until next year - why?  I want to be sure that the boat is certified in the class - (used boat purchase as I can't afford new - as is the case with most new folks in a class)
       
      I've been an active member of the one design class for the E-Scow which is primarily USA plus one fleet in Canada and one in Finland.  We are a One-Design class and are now down to one boat builder, in part due to the expense of the boat there were too few boats being purchased new.   The new boats are 98% purchased by current owners and current members of the fleet with their boats then being sold to folks coming into the fleet.
       
      I agree with Thaddeus that it's important for North America builders to be included concurrently with others.   I will (and I suspect others may) delay my purchase until the dust settles....
       
      I too am enjoying the discussion - I encourage a quick (yet thorough) discussion & decissions within the class.
       
      Yours in Sailing (well once mother nature stops the snow)...
       ~ Drew


      From: Thaddeus Brej <thadbrej@...>
      To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 1:26:00 PM
      Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class

       

      It is absolutlely fantastic that people are actually talking about what is going on in the 2.4mR class and specifically the 2.4OD class.

      It would be safe to say that there is overwhelming support for the 2.4OD class based upon the N3. However, the process by which the new class is being formed appears to stir some pretty strong feelings amongst the sailors 'out here' and not 'in there' (in the ODRC). This is evidenced by the recent conversations that are being held, mainly here on the Yahoo group forum.

      I think Jim and Dennis are asking some really good questions and raising some fairly legitimate concerns.
      It appears that the biggest concern (here in North America) is about having a certified NA builder that is not at a disadvantage to any other builder(s).
      A healthy, viable North American builder is critical for the future of the 2.4OD class in Canada and the USA.
      To NOT have this initiative running in parallel with the Charger initiative is detrimental to our interests.

      As a new Gavia N3 owner, I am very happy to hear that I will have the opportunity to have the boat certified as OD compliant in September.
      I would encourage the 2.4OD directors to have a North American builder certified by this time also.

      --- In 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com, Jim Reiman <jreiman@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Peter -
      >
      > Thank you for your response. Know, however, that I share Dennis' concerns. I would be vey had pressed to buy a boat from a non US builder. Why? Service; language; currency issues; set up issues; costs; regatta help; time. . . . .
      >
      > I also find it hard to understand why it would take "1-2 years" to qualify a US builder, if I understand your response, and also find it difficult to understand why in-put from all Norlin builders isn't considered worthy (indeed, essential) to be heard and included.
      >
      > Regarding joining the association, while I've sailed Lightnings for years I have never been involved in their Association leadership. That said, if my time permits (I travel extensively and am starting a new business), I would be pleased to help.
      >
      >
      > Jim Reiman
      > Sent from my mobile device
      >
      > On Mar 31, 2011, at 9:19 AM, Ted MacBook Pro <ttbow@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Who is that builder Dennis.
      > >
      > > ted
      > >
      > > On Mar 31, 2011, at 8:56 AM, Dennis Peck wrote:
      > >
      > >>
      > >> 
      > >>
      > >> We Have an American builder now and that is a point that needs to be set out and I believe has been waiting for the class to certify. That is why my last post is not in favor of Charger being the only one at this time.
      > >> Dennis.
      > >> ----- Original Message -----
      > >> From: Jim Reiman
      > >> To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
      > >> Cc: <24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com>
      > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:31 PM
      > >> Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> All -
      > >>
      > >> Thank you Peter and the others on the one design committee, and thank you Dennis for your several thoughtful posts.
      > >>
      > >> I've been following all of this with interest, as one of those standing on the sidelines not wanting to buy boats until this is all sorted out. Here are my thoughts:
      > >>
      > >> I fully support a one design class, and believe creating a 2.4 OD class a terrific step forward. However, in my experience there are two types of one design classes: those managed (read "controlled") by a manufacturer, and those managed by the sailors. Personally, I will not get involved in a class "managed" by a manufacturer.
      > >>
      > >> As a lifetime Lightning sailor, I believe that that class' success and longevity lies in 3 facts: 1) the quality of the design; 2) that there are multiple builders, all competing and working to keep the boat fresh, modern, and exciting, and; 3) the opportunity for sailors to tweak their boats within a strict one-design rule. Points 2 and 3 generate interest in new boats, which helps build the class by generating a market for new boats and making quality older boats available for new class members.
      > >>
      > >> Dennis' comments regarding this being a Charger show are right on, and a concern to me. I will only get involved in the class and buy boats if there are multiple builders, and (important to me) an American builder.
      > >>
      > >> I look forward to reading and learning more.
      > >>
      > >>
      > >> Jim Reiman
      > >> Sent from my mobile device
      > >>
      > >> On Mar 30, 2011, at 11:31 PM, "Dennis Peck" <bdselah1@...> wrote:
      > >>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> Peter first I want to thank you for the reply and state the clear intent of the rule to enable existing Norlin Mk III should be able to be certified. The one problem I might see happening is that someone has done nothing to a Norlin Mk III and it doesn't fit then there is that chance that the boat is worth nothing unless it can be brought into the one-design class, this should not be on the owner if the boat has not been changed. Now the statement you made that some sailors have made meaningful modifications to hull shape and ballast would mean that it is no-longer a Norlin MKIII and there should not even be in the question. I am not concerned with one that would have changed the shape of the hull to gain performance because in all one-design fleets that constitutes a type of cheating and design change. Even in the meter rule that should change the final figure unless other changes were made to make up the differences. So unless you are in the design business you would be taking quite a risk. It will interesting to see how those boats made by others other that Charger are certified and this will show the real intent of the OD class, as to whether it is trying to limit the manufactures of the boats. I have big concerns as to why Charger would be the first to gain this approval since others have also been building the Norlin MK III. How is it that others have not been included in the process and would be given the same status as Charger. I have real problems with this since many boats are out there and Charger is not the only one make the boat. To state that they will be the first seems a little one sided since we don't even have an official measurer or the rule at this point and if so then it needs to be made public so any manufacture can know who is responsible for doing it. Also I can't imagine that no other builder has applied for the manufactory certification yet also. I know my next question might be a little more difficult to answer but since there are so many that have been involved in one-design as myself and the interest level being high, how was the OD Committee appointed and by whom. Not that many would want to serve but just so class might understand what was involved in the process, this might help us understand some of the reason for how this process we are becoming part of took place. Guess you have found out by now that many don't just take things for granted because a few chose the direction. Most of this should be put out to the class for approval by the class. Now I state this understanding how hard it is to get the masses to agree on much. But I think the point here is that many have the Norlin MK III that have not been changed and they should be assured of certification with the possible sight weight changes. Now the fact of weight being vertical or horizontal makes little difference since horizontal would be best but when it comes to lead packed in a confined area there really isn't any measurable difference. Now if you want to get picky you would have to limit the weight size of each piece of lead used and how much air must be around the lead before water is added to the keel. Now this is going just a little far as is stating that lead must be horizontal but I would think most are so point is mute.
      > >>> Thanks for this correspondance and pray all find it as interesting as we do. It will make a stronger class as these things are considered.
      > >>> Dennis
      > >>> ----- Original Message -----
      > >>> From: Peter Wilson
      > >>> To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
      > >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:19 AM
      > >>> Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> To all:
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> Perhaps I can clarify the issue that Dennis raises. I have been and still am a member of the One-Design-Rule-Committee of the 2.4mR ICA.
      > >>>
      > >>> The OD rule is very close to being finalized, and then it will be published. The clear intent of the rule is to enable existing Norlin Mk III boats to become certified as OD boats, and there is a specific section in the rule that covers this. From earlier measurement work we expect that most boats will be easy to certify. However, we know that some sailors have made meaningful modifications to hull shape and ballast, so certification cannot be automatic. Further, to gain approval from ISAF as a one-design class, there must be strict building criteria and measurement criteria for older boats. The critical requirements will be:
      > >>> hull shape - must fit the templates - hulls/keels that have been faired and/or keels deepened, will have to be fixed.
      > >>> rudder - must be either the original small N Mk III rudder or the new deeper OD rudder.
      > >>> ballast - cannot exceed 181 kilos...lead pigs must be horizontal
      > >>> all up dry weight - 253-254 kilos.
      > >>> Of course the spars and sails must meet the rule, but the rule was developed off the N Mk III so this should not be a problem.
      > >>>
      > >>> The templates are being made to allow what we believe will be the possible small variances in hull shape.
      > >>>
      > >>> Please let me know if you have any further questions.
      > >>>
      > >>> Peter Wilson
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Dennis Peck <bdselah1@...> wrote:
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> I read this with great interest and since in two days the rules become effective it would be nice to have them posted. I have seen several in the past but not the ones talked about. I also notice this in the web about one design boats(2.4mR Class members who currently own and sail either the 2.4 One Design boat or the Norlin Mk III boat which has been certified as a 2.4 One Design boat under the 2.4 One Design class rule.) Which doesn't state that the Norlin Mark 111 already out there are one design, it only talks about those that have been measured to the rule which is not out there yet. Sounds like the cart is pushing the horse. Maybe one should state it so one will know what is really up and not beat around the bushes. We expect the old Norlin Mark 111 will be part of the one design since that is what it is to be taken from but we have yet to see it in the official document or here. We have been told yes but one thing is for sure, don't believe everything you hear. In the document there is wiggle room if someone doesn't want someone's boat or person in the fleet by the statement on this page. I can't say I will support action like this even though I am one the supports the efforts of one design but also support the fact that these boats already are here and need to be included in the class per documents since they are what has started this and the value of them must be upheld.
      > >>> Dennis
      > >>> ----- Original Message -----
      > >>> From: brithall45
      > >>> To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
      > >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 8:13 AM
      > >>> Subject: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> As you probably have heard, a new International 2.4 One Design Class Association has been formed. The link for the official announcement from the new class is: http://www.inter24metre.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121:24-one-design-class-association&catid=82:one-design-information&Itemid=92 .
      > >>>
      > >>> We have received questions from 2.4mR boat owners and potential boat owners about what this means in the US. Historically, the established 2.4mR Class has always been and continues to be an open, development class. Any boat that measures as a 2.4mR under the `meter boat' measurement procedure, regardless of its design, can be raced in the class. This has led to various designs and some substantial differences between boats. However, over last 10 years it has become clear that the most favored design among competitive sailors is the Norlin Mark III. Over 90% of registered boats are this design.
      > >>>
      > >>> Over the last several years, there have been extensive discussions about forming a one design class. It has been the opinion of the competitive sailors that the class needed to progress to one design. The one design arena provides many advantages. First, it allows boat owners some surety that the design they are buying can be sailed for many years in a stable class. Second, it allows boat builders to perfect their molds and construction methods to produce `standard' high quality boats for many years. Third, it provides strict rules about the design, weight, spars shape and length, etc… so that sailors know that when they compete, it is their skills that are being tested. Perhaps most importantly, it promotes the boat as a true one-design Paralympic boat for IFDS. By ensuring the 2.4 remains as the single-person Paralympic boat, we ensure continued racing at the highest level for able bodied and disabled sailors alike, all sailing the same boat.
      > >>>
      > >>> If you own a 2.4mR of the Norlin Mark III design, you have the basic boat that may meet the 2.4 One Design Class Rule, which will be published soon along with the `Construction Manual' and Constitution. The ODRC is in the process of finalizing the class rule and measurement templates to certify boats made before April 1, 2011. It is planned that the Class measurer, Gene Hinkel, will be available to measure and certify boats on Thursday, September 8, 2011, the day before US Nationals at Noroton Yacht Club, Noroton, CT. This event will be sailed as a 2.4mR Open regatta. If your boat does not measure in under the one design rule, but does measure in under the open class rule, you will be able to compete in the event.
      > >>>
      > >>> We hope this clarifies some of your questions about the new One Design Class.
      > >>>
      > >>> John Ruf, President US 2.4mR Class
      > >>> Britt Hall, VP US 2.4mR Class
      > >>> Charlie Rosenfield, Sect/ Treas US 2.4mR Class
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>> --
      > >>> Peter Wilson
      > >>> 186 Nearwater Lane
      > >>> Darien, Ct 06820
      > >>> office: 203 655 9335
      > >>> cell: 203 984 6595
      > >>> skype: peterwilson186
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >
      > >
      >

    • Peter Nichols
      Richard, $3,000 firm ... From: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richard Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 3:14 PM To:
      Message 41 of 41 , Apr 27, 2011
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        Richard,
        $3,000 firm
        -----Original Message-----
        From: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Richard
        Sent: Tuesday, April 26, 2011 3:14 PM
        To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class

         

        How much$$? Richard

        --- In 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Nichols" <nicholsp@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have a millimeter for sail in Camarillo Ca with trailer
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com [mailto:24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of JASON BROOKS
        > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2011 8:07 PM
        > To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Anyone have a non compliant boat for sale? I'm looking to daysail in San Diego.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > From: Paul Fogel <fogelp@...>
        > To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 4:00:18 PM
        > Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > April fool's day.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > From: Thaddeus Brej <thadbrej@...>
        > To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Fri, April 1, 2011 11:27:26 AM
        > Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        >
        >
        > The ISAF site indicated that the 2.4OD class rules, construction manual, etc. would be published on 4/01/2011.
        > Any word yet if these items are available?
        > Is the new class website up?
        >
        > Thad
        >
        > --- In 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Peck" <bdselah1@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Drew
        > > I had these same concerns for 20 year on the boat and finally joined the class last year and that was so I could compete in the North American and since then have been involved in most all races in my area. Lots of fun and it was good to get back in touch with the guys I new from days gone past. Love the sailing and the time with the guys and most regatta are almost one-design anyway since most sail the Norlin MK III nowadays. Would be nice to own a new one bought here from my builder and would love to see you in one but I understand your concern and others. You might notice that I have the same and had it not been for the 2.4 amendment being filled I still probably wouldn't have joined but since it was in there I did to support the effort. Now my age is getting up there and wonder how much longer we can do this but it seem I will till I am in the box or jar which ever ends up but let's get'er done now.
        > > email me for more on that.
        > > Dennis
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Andrew
        > > To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 12:06 PM
        > > Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Great discussions here... I have been and outsider to the class, and I will continue to be an outsider.
        > >
        > > I think it's important for the 2.4OD directors to hear this & put this in the process....
        > >
        > > As a US resident considering purchasing into the class, my decission was to wait until summer in New York state is upon us - I will now wait until next year - why? I want to be sure that the boat is certified in the class - (used boat purchase as I can't afford new - as is the case with most new folks in a class)
        > >
        > > I've been an active member of the one design class for the E-Scow which is primarily USA plus one fleet in Canada and one in Finland. We are a One-Design class and are now down to one boat builder, in part due to the expense of the boat there were too few boats being purchased new. The new boats are 98% purchased by current owners and current members of the fleet with their boats then being sold to folks coming into the fleet.
        > >
        > > I agree with Thaddeus that it's important for North America builders to be included concurrently with others. I will (and I suspect others may) delay my purchase until the dust settles....
        > >
        > > I too am enjoying the discussion - I encourage a quick (yet thorough) discussion & decissions within the class.
        > >
        > > Yours in Sailing (well once mother nature stops the snow)...
        > > ~ Drew
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----------------------------------------------------------
        > > From: Thaddeus Brej <thadbrej@>
        > > To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Thu, March 31, 2011 1:26:00 PM
        > > Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        > >
        > >
        > > It is absolutlely fantastic that people are actually talking about what is going on in the 2.4mR class and specifically the 2.4OD class.
        > >
        > > It would be safe to say that there is overwhelming support for the 2.4OD class based upon the N3. However, the process by which the new class is being formed appears to stir some pretty strong feelings amongst the sailors 'out here' and not 'in there' (in the ODRC). This is evidenced by the recent conversations that are being held, mainly here on the Yahoo group forum.
        > >
        > > I think Jim and Dennis are asking some really good questions and raising some fairly legitimate concerns.
        > > It appears that the biggest concern (here in North America) is about having a certified NA builder that is not at a disadvantage to any other builder(s).
        > > A healthy, viable North American builder is critical for the future of the 2.4OD class in Canada and the USA.
        > > To NOT have this initiative running in parallel with the Charger initiative is detrimental to our interests.
        > >
        > > As a new Gavia N3 owner, I am very happy to hear that I will have the opportunity to have the boat certified as OD compliant in September.
        > > I would encourage the 2.4OD directors to have a North American builder certified by this time also.
        > >
        > > --- In 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com, Jim Reiman <jreiman@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Peter -
        > > >
        > > > Thank you for your response. Know, however, that I share Dennis' concerns. I would be vey had pressed to buy a boat from a non US builder. Why? Service; language; currency issues; set up issues; costs; regatta help; time. . . . .
        > > >
        > > > I also find it hard to understand why it would take "1-2 years" to qualify a US builder, if I understand your response, and also find it difficult to understand why in-put from all Norlin builders isn't considered worthy (indeed, essential) to be heard and included.
        > > >
        > > > Regarding joining the association, while I've sailed Lightnings for years I have never been involved in their Association leadership. That said, if my time permits (I travel extensively and am starting a new business), I would be pleased to help.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Jim Reiman
        > > > Sent from my mobile device
        > > >
        > > > On Mar 31, 2011, at 9:19 AM, Ted MacBook Pro <ttbow@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > > Who is that builder Dennis.
        > > > >
        > > > > ted
        > > > >
        > > > > On Mar 31, 2011, at 8:56 AM, Dennis Peck wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > >>
        > > > >> 
        > > > >>
        > > > >> We Have an American builder now and that is a point that needs to be set out and I believe has been waiting for the class to certify. That is why my last post is not in favor of Charger being the only one at this time.
        > > > >> Dennis.
        > > > >> ----- Original Message -----
        > > > >> From: Jim Reiman
        > > > >> To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >> Cc: <24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:31 PM
        > > > >> Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >> All -
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Thank you Peter and the others on the one design committee, and thank you Dennis for your several thoughtful posts.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> I've been following all of this with interest, as one of those standing on the sidelines not wanting to buy boats until this is all sorted out. Here are my thoughts:
        > > > >>
        > > > >> I fully support a one design class, and believe creating a 2.4 OD class a terrific step forward. However, in my experience there are two types of one design classes: those managed (read "controlled") by a manufacturer, and those managed by the sailors. Personally, I will not get involved in a class "managed" by a manufacturer.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> As a lifetime Lightning sailor, I believe that that class' success and longevity lies in 3 facts: 1) the quality of the design; 2) that there are multiple builders, all competing and working to keep the boat fresh, modern, and exciting, and; 3) the opportunity for sailors to tweak their boats within a strict one-design rule. Points 2 and 3 generate interest in new boats, which helps build the class by generating a market for new boats and making quality older boats available for new class members.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Dennis' comments regarding this being a Charger show are right on, and a concern to me. I will only get involved in the class and buy boats if there are multiple builders, and (important to me) an American builder.
        > > > >>
        > > > >> I look forward to reading and learning more.
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >> Jim Reiman
        > > > >> Sent from my mobile device
        > > > >>
        > > > >> On Mar 30, 2011, at 11:31 PM, "Dennis Peck" <bdselah1@> wrote:
        > > > >>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Peter first I want to thank you for the reply and state the clear intent of the rule to enable existing Norlin Mk III should be able to be certified. The one problem I might see happening is that someone has done nothing to a Norlin Mk III and it doesn't fit then there is that chance that the boat is worth nothing unless it can be brought into the one-design class, this should not be on the owner if the boat has not been changed. Now the statement you made that some sailors have made meaningful modifications to hull shape and ballast would mean that it is no-longer a Norlin MKIII and there should not even be in the question. I am not concerned with one that would have changed the shape of the hull to gain performance because in all one-design fleets that constitutes a type of cheating and design change. Even in the meter rule that should change the final figure unless other changes were made to make up the differences. So unless you are in the design business you would be taking quite a risk. It will interesting to see how those boats made by others other that Charger are certified and this will show the real intent of the OD class, as to whether it is trying to limit the manufactures of the boats. I have big concerns as to why Charger would be the first to gain this approval since others have also been building the Norlin MK III. How is it that others have not been included in the process and would be given the same status as Charger. I have real problems with this since many boats are out there and Charger is not the only one make the boat. To state that they will be the first seems a little one sided since we don't even have an official measurer or the rule at this point and if so then it needs to be made public so any manufacture can know who is responsible for doing it. Also I can't imagine that no other builder has applied for the manufactory certification yet also. I know my next question might be a little more difficult to answer but since there are so many that have been involved in one-design as myself and the interest level being high, how was the OD Committee appointed and by whom. Not that many would want to serve but just so class might understand what was involved in the process, this might help us understand some of the reason for how this process we are becoming part of took place. Guess you have found out by now that many don't just take things for granted because a few chose the direction. Most of this should be put out to the class for approval by the class. Now I state this understanding how hard it is to get the masses to agree on much. But I think the point here is that many have the Norlin MK III that have not been changed and they should be assured of certification with the possible sight weight changes. Now the fact of weight being vertical or horizontal makes little difference since horizontal would be best but when it comes to lead packed in a confined area there really isn't any measurable difference. Now if you want to get picky you would have to limit the weight size of each piece of lead used and how much air must be around the lead before water is added to the keel. Now this is going just a little far as is stating that lead must be horizontal but I would think most are so point is mute.
        > > > >>> Thanks for this correspondance and pray all find it as interesting as we do. It will make a stronger class as these things are considered.
        > > > >>> Dennis
        > > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
        > > > >>> From: Peter Wilson
        > > > >>> To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2011 6:19 AM
        > > > >>> Subject: Re: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> To all:
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Perhaps I can clarify the issue that Dennis raises. I have been and still am a member of the One-Design-Rule-Committee of the 2.4mR ICA.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> The OD rule is very close to being finalized, and then it will be published. The clear intent of the rule is to enable existing Norlin Mk III boats to become certified as OD boats, and there is a specific section in the rule that covers this. From earlier measurement work we expect that most boats will be easy to certify. However, we know that some sailors have made meaningful modifications to hull shape and ballast, so certification cannot be automatic. Further, to gain approval from ISAF as a one-design class, there must be strict building criteria and measurement criteria for older boats. The critical requirements will be:
        > > > >>> hull shape - must fit the templates - hulls/keels that have been faired and/or keels deepened, will have to be fixed.
        > > > >>> rudder - must be either the original small N Mk III rudder or the new deeper OD rudder.
        > > > >>> ballast - cannot exceed 181 kilos...lead pigs must be horizontal
        > > > >>> all up dry weight - 253-254 kilos.
        > > > >>> Of course the spars and sails must meet the rule, but the rule was developed off the N Mk III so this should not be a problem.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> The templates are being made to allow what we believe will be the possible small variances in hull shape.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Please let me know if you have any further questions.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Peter Wilson
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 11:25 PM, Dennis Peck <bdselah1@> wrote:
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> I read this with great interest and since in two days the rules become effective it would be nice to have them posted. I have seen several in the past but not the ones talked about. I also notice this in the web about one design boats(2.4mR Class members who currently own and sail either the 2.4 One Design boat or the Norlin Mk III boat which has been certified as a 2.4 One Design boat under the 2.4 One Design class rule.) Which doesn't state that the Norlin Mark 111 already out there are one design, it only talks about those that have been measured to the rule which is not out there yet. Sounds like the cart is pushing the horse. Maybe one should state it so one will know what is really up and not beat around the bushes. We expect the old Norlin Mark 111 will be part of the one design since that is what it is to be taken from but we have yet to see it in the official document or here. We have been told yes but one thing is for sure, don't believe everything you hear. In the document there is wiggle room if someone doesn't want someone's boat or person in the fleet by the statement on this page. I can't say I will support action like this even though I am one the supports the efforts of one design but also support the fact that these boats already are here and need to be included in the class per documents since they are what has started this and the value of them must be upheld.
        > > > >>> Dennis
        > > > >>> ----- Original Message -----
        > > > >>> From: brithall45
        > > > >>> To: 24mRsailors@yahoogroups.com
        > > > >>> Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2011 8:13 AM
        > > > >>> Subject: 2.4mR Sailors New 2.4 One Design Class
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> As you probably have heard, a new International 2.4 One Design Class Association has been formed. The link for the official announcement from the new class is: http://www.inter24metre.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121:24-one-design-class-association&catid=82:one-design-information&Itemid=92 .
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> We have received questions from 2.4mR boat owners and potential boat owners about what this means in the US. Historically, the established 2.4mR Class has always been and continues to be an open, development class. Any boat that measures as a 2.4mR under the `meter boat' measurement procedure, regardless of its design, can be raced in the class. This has led to various designs and some substantial differences between boats. However, over last 10 years it has become clear that the most favored design among competitive sailors is the Norlin Mark III. Over 90% of registered boats are this design.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> Over the last several years, there have been extensive discussions about forming a one design class. It has been the opinion of the competitive sailors that the class needed to progress to one design. The one design arena provides many advantages. First, it allows boat owners some surety that the design they are buying can be sailed for many years in a stable class. Second, it allows boat builders to perfect their molds and construction methods to produce `standard' high quality boats for many years. Third, it provides strict rules about the design, weight, spars shape and length, etc… so that sailors know that when they compete, it is their skills that are being tested. Perhaps most importantly, it promotes the boat as a true one-design Paralympic boat for IFDS. By ensuring the 2.4 remains as the single-person Paralympic boat, we ensure continued racing at the highest level for able bodied and disabled sailors alike, all sailing the same boat.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> If you own a 2.4mR of the Norlin Mark III design, you have the basic boat that may meet the 2.4 One Design Class Rule, which will be published soon along with the `Construction Manual' and Constitution. The ODRC is in the process of finalizing the class rule and measurement templates to certify boats made before April 1, 2011. It is planned that the Class measurer, Gene Hinkel, will be available to measure and certify boats on Thursday, September 8, 2011, the day before US Nationals at Noroton Yacht Club, Noroton, CT. This event will be sailed as a 2.4mR Open regatta. If your boat does not measure in under the one design rule, but does measure in under the open class rule, you will be able to compete in the event.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> We hope this clarifies some of your questions about the new One Design Class.
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> John Ruf, President US 2.4mR Class
        > > > >>> Britt Hall, VP US 2.4mR Class
        > > > >>> Charlie Rosenfield, Sect/ Treas US 2.4mR Class
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>> --
        > > > >>> Peter Wilson
        > > > >>> 186 Nearwater Lane
        > > > >>> Darien, Ct 06820
        > > > >>> office: 203 655 9335
        > > > >>> cell: 203 984 6595
        > > > >>> skype: peterwilson186
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>>
        > > > >>
        > > > >>
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >

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