Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...

Expand Messages
  • Steve Cavanaugh
    Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what power amp you are using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly significantly to
    Message 1 of 12 , Aug 31, 1999
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what power amp you are
      using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
      significantly to the tone.

      Steve Cavanaugh

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
      > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
      > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
      > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
      > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
      >
      >
      >
      > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
      >
      > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest obsession: 12ax7
      > TUBES!
      >
      > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that different preamp
      > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
      >
      > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a personal Tone
      > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been trying to find
      > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the other tube-heads
      > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
      > differences
      > between
      > them all...
      >
      > So far I've tried:
      > Sovtek 12ax7a
      > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
      > Sovtek 12ax7lps
      > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
      > Ei 12ax7a
      > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
      > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
      > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
      > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
      >
      > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different tubes, but some of
      > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then, and others just
      > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
      >
      > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender sounds to bassy
      > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of time, because I've
      > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them and trying to
      > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing. Anyway, my whole
      > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
      > favourites so far:
      >
      > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
      > lean a little
      > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
      > responsive to
      > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
      > with a touch
      > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies... They look a
      > lot like a
      > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like them, but they
      > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part of someones
      > favourite tone.
      >
      > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele smooth plate.
      > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
      > one? They are
      > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It doesn't have the same
      > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow. Well rounded
      > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same richness in the
      > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the other tubes.
      >
      >
      > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been comparing all these
      > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth to them. The
      > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too grainy. I found I
      > could drive them with high compressor output even at low gain on the "warm
      > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding power-tube
      > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't for the fact
      > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I plug it in. My
      > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here. However, I have to
      > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try to help save the
      > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
      >
      >
      > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
      > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They sound really
      > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
      > the lows and
      > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you distort them,
      > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very prominent, but
      > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general soundscape that these
      > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did like the tone, I
      > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
      > mentioned and a
      > good EQ.
      >
      >
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
      > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
      > To: 2120@...-dod.com
      > Cc: mschimke@...
      > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
      >
      >
      > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0) available on several of
      > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different types of tubes,
      > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
      >
      > Mark
      >
      > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
      > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section of their 2120
      > etc.?...
      > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube variations but
      > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed some light....
      > ==================================================================
      > =========
      > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
      > |
      > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
      > | SUBJECT:
      > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
      > |
      > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
      > ==================================================================
      > =========
      > ==================================================================
      > =========
      > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
      > |
      > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
      > | SUBJECT:
      > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
      > |
      > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
      > ==================================================================
      > =========
      >


      ===========================================================================
      | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
      |
      | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
      | SUBJECT:
      | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
      |
      | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
      ===========================================================================
    • Sheremata, Dave
      Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post... I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what it s all about. I pretty much believe
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 1, 1999
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post...
        I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what it's all about. I
        pretty much believe that too. I just can't afford it! :( Ask many a
        guitarist, and they describe their dream setup as a Vox AC30 (or two), *and*
        a Marshall mkii *and* fender Bassman (or super reverb, or tweed, or deville,
        etc etc.. *and* a boogie, etc. etc. :)... .It's my dream too, to have any
        sound in the world on the drop of a dime, and have it sound beautiful... but
        isn't that why most people pick the 2120 in the first place? So they can
        really get a wide range of good sounds without having a wall of amps and a
        whole lot of debt? For me it was anyway - I mostly love my 2120 because of
        the preamp, not so much everything else in the digital chain. I don't wind
        up emulating tones, but coming up with them.
        Hope I don't sound like I'm ranting... I don't mean to... I'm just obsessed
        :)
        Well, I'm using a peavey classic 50/50. Love this amp. I've posted many
        raves about this amp before in the past, so I'll spare half of the hype that
        I usually post, unless you really want more details. ;)
        I did try pulling 4 of the el84s out, to see what the thing sounds like
        overdriven. (It's kind of scary overdriving a 100 watt amp.) It was still
        too loud overdriving it at 25 watts on one channel alone, and I also felt
        pretty scared that I'd blow the output transformer :o , so I put the tubes
        back in and run it clean. The preamp distoriotions of 2120 really sounded
        great in combination with the el84's. I think I was using a Telefunken and
        a Sylavania at the time...
        As for the Peavey's affect on the tone when it's run clean, It still does
        seem to me that it enhances the harmonics already brought out by the 2120 -
        IMHO, I think it's because it's class a/b, so there's cross-over distortion.

        Anyway, if you don't believe me about the 12ax7 differences, all I can say
        is that you have to try it. I was skeptical too. None of them do truly
        sound like power-tube distortion, but they do have different traits, and
        some are more preferable to others, at least to me.
        Hey Steve, what's driving your speakers? What does it sound like and how do
        you like it?
        I love the age old debate on tone - but in the end it's all subjective,
        ain't it? :) The world of guitars is great because it's like alchemy, and
        there's no telling what someone else will come up with. Anyone else have
        opinions/preferences/experiences with their 2120 vs. true cranked amp tone?

        Dave

        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
        > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:31 PM
        > To: 2120@...-dod.com
        > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
        >
        >
        > Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what
        > power amp you are
        > using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
        > significantly to the tone.
        >
        > Steve Cavanaugh
        >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
        > > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
        > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
        > > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
        > > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
        > >
        > > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest
        > obsession: 12ax7
        > > TUBES!
        > >
        > > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that
        > different preamp
        > > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
        > >
        > > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a
        > personal Tone
        > > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been
        > trying to find
        > > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the
        > other tube-heads
        > > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
        > > differences
        > > between
        > > them all...
        > >
        > > So far I've tried:
        > > Sovtek 12ax7a
        > > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
        > > Sovtek 12ax7lps
        > > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
        > > Ei 12ax7a
        > > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
        > > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
        > > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
        > > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
        > >
        > > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different
        > tubes, but some of
        > > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then,
        > and others just
        > > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
        > >
        > > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender
        > sounds to bassy
        > > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of
        > time, because I've
        > > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them
        > and trying to
        > > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing.
        > Anyway, my whole
        > > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
        > > favourites so far:
        > >
        > > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
        > > lean a little
        > > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
        > > responsive to
        > > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
        > > with a touch
        > > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies... They look a
        > > lot like a
        > > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like
        > them, but they
        > > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part
        > of someones
        > > favourite tone.
        > >
        > > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele
        > smooth plate.
        > > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
        > > one? They are
        > > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It
        > doesn't have the same
        > > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow.
        > Well rounded
        > > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same
        > richness in the
        > > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the
        > other tubes.
        > >
        > >
        > > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been
        > comparing all these
        > > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth to them. The
        > > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too
        > grainy. I found I
        > > could drive them with high compressor output even at low
        > gain on the "warm
        > > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding
        > power-tube
        > > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't
        > for the fact
        > > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I
        > plug it in. My
        > > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here.
        > However, I have to
        > > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try
        > to help save the
        > > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
        > >
        > >
        > > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
        > > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They sound really
        > > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
        > > the lows and
        > > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you
        > distort them,
        > > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very
        > prominent, but
        > > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general
        > soundscape that these
        > > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did
        > like the tone, I
        > > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
        > > mentioned and a
        > > good EQ.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
        > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
        > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
        > > Cc: mschimke@...
        > > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
        > >
        > >
        > > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0)
        > available on several of
        > > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different
        > types of tubes,
        > > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
        > >
        > > Mark
        > >
        > > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
        > > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section
        > of their 2120
        > > etc.?...
        > > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube variations but
        > > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed
        > some light....
        > > ==================================================================
        > > =========
        > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
        > > |
        > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
        > > | SUBJECT:
        > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
        > > |
        > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
        > > ==================================================================
        > > =========
        > > ==================================================================
        > > =========
        > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
        > > |
        > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
        > > | SUBJECT:
        > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
        > > |
        > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
        > > ==================================================================
        > > =========
        > >
        >
        >
        > ==============================================================
        > =============
        > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
        > |
        > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
        > | SUBJECT:
        > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
        > |
        > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
        > ==============================================================
        > =============
        >
        ===========================================================================
        | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
        |
        | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
        | SUBJECT:
        | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
        |
        | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
        ===========================================================================
      • Don Belanger
        I also went through a 12AX7 shoot-out a few years back using a Hughes and Kettner Attax rack mount pre-amp running direct as the test unit. I had a friend who
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 1, 1999
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          I also went through a 12AX7 shoot-out a few years back using a Hughes and
          Kettner Attax rack mount pre-amp running direct as the test unit. I had a
          friend who was a tube nut and collected everything he could find. He gave me
          a bag of about 10 different 12AX7's (some labeled, some not). I wasn't
          paying attention to which were which cause he told me I could keep the 2
          best sounding ones I found. There were differences between all of them (some
          very noticeable, some only noticiable to the extremely!!!!! anally
          retentive - about as noticeable as a fresh set of strings, or late night
          tone vs. early morning tone, or 1 beer tone vs. 4 beer tone............). In
          my experience, find a Mesa Boogie dealer and buy a matched pair of their
          stock of Boogie labeled 12AX7's. I don't know who manufactures the tubes for
          boogie (Russia? China?) but they go thru a pretty good weeding out process
          to come up with their matched sets.

          P.S. Check out a Line 6 Flextone - 60 watt model with the single 12" (I put
          a Celestian Classic 30 in mine) if you want to hear a pretty damn good
          modeling amp.

          Don B.
          Chula Vista, CA


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Sheremata, Dave <Dave.Sheremata@...>
          To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail) <2120@...-dod.com>
          Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 10:58 AM
          Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...


          >Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post...
          >I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what it's all about.
          I
          >pretty much believe that too. I just can't afford it! :( Ask many a
          >guitarist, and they describe their dream setup as a Vox AC30 (or two),
          *and*
          >a Marshall mkii *and* fender Bassman (or super reverb, or tweed, or
          deville,
          >etc etc.. *and* a boogie, etc. etc. :)... .It's my dream too, to have any
          >sound in the world on the drop of a dime, and have it sound beautiful...
          but
          >isn't that why most people pick the 2120 in the first place? So they can
          >really get a wide range of good sounds without having a wall of amps and a
          >whole lot of debt? For me it was anyway - I mostly love my 2120 because of
          >the preamp, not so much everything else in the digital chain. I don't wind
          >up emulating tones, but coming up with them.
          >Hope I don't sound like I'm ranting... I don't mean to... I'm just obsessed
          >:)
          >Well, I'm using a peavey classic 50/50. Love this amp. I've posted many
          >raves about this amp before in the past, so I'll spare half of the hype
          that
          >I usually post, unless you really want more details. ;)
          >I did try pulling 4 of the el84s out, to see what the thing sounds like
          >overdriven. (It's kind of scary overdriving a 100 watt amp.) It was still
          >too loud overdriving it at 25 watts on one channel alone, and I also felt
          >pretty scared that I'd blow the output transformer :o , so I put the tubes
          >back in and run it clean. The preamp distoriotions of 2120 really sounded
          >great in combination with the el84's. I think I was using a Telefunken and
          >a Sylavania at the time...
          >As for the Peavey's affect on the tone when it's run clean, It still does
          >seem to me that it enhances the harmonics already brought out by the 2120 -
          >IMHO, I think it's because it's class a/b, so there's cross-over
          distortion.
          >
          >Anyway, if you don't believe me about the 12ax7 differences, all I can say
          >is that you have to try it. I was skeptical too. None of them do truly
          >sound like power-tube distortion, but they do have different traits, and
          >some are more preferable to others, at least to me.
          >Hey Steve, what's driving your speakers? What does it sound like and how
          do
          >you like it?
          >I love the age old debate on tone - but in the end it's all subjective,
          >ain't it? :) The world of guitars is great because it's like alchemy, and
          >there's no telling what someone else will come up with. Anyone else have
          >opinions/preferences/experiences with their 2120 vs. true cranked amp tone?
          >
          >Dave
          >
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
          >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:31 PM
          >> To: 2120@...-dod.com
          >> Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
          >>
          >>
          >> Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what
          >> power amp you are
          >> using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
          >> significantly to the tone.
          >>
          >> Steve Cavanaugh
          >>
          >> > -----Original Message-----
          >> > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
          >> > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
          >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
          >> > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
          >> > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
          >> >
          >> > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest
          >> obsession: 12ax7
          >> > TUBES!
          >> >
          >> > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that
          >> different preamp
          >> > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
          >> >
          >> > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a
          >> personal Tone
          >> > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been
          >> trying to find
          >> > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the
          >> other tube-heads
          >> > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
          >> > differences
          >> > between
          >> > them all...
          >> >
          >> > So far I've tried:
          >> > Sovtek 12ax7a
          >> > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
          >> > Sovtek 12ax7lps
          >> > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
          >> > Ei 12ax7a
          >> > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
          >> > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
          >> > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
          >> > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
          >> >
          >> > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different
          >> tubes, but some of
          >> > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then,
          >> and others just
          >> > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
          >> >
          >> > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender
          >> sounds to bassy
          >> > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of
          >> time, because I've
          >> > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them
          >> and trying to
          >> > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing.
          >> Anyway, my whole
          >> > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
          >> > favourites so far:
          >> >
          >> > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
          >> > lean a little
          >> > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
          >> > responsive to
          >> > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
          >> > with a touch
          >> > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies... They look a
          >> > lot like a
          >> > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like
          >> them, but they
          >> > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part
          >> of someones
          >> > favourite tone.
          >> >
          >> > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele
          >> smooth plate.
          >> > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
          >> > one? They are
          >> > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It
          >> doesn't have the same
          >> > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow.
          >> Well rounded
          >> > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same
          >> richness in the
          >> > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the
          >> other tubes.
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been
          >> comparing all these
          >> > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth to them. The
          >> > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too
          >> grainy. I found I
          >> > could drive them with high compressor output even at low
          >> gain on the "warm
          >> > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding
          >> power-tube
          >> > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't
          >> for the fact
          >> > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I
          >> plug it in. My
          >> > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here.
          >> However, I have to
          >> > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try
          >> to help save the
          >> > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
          >> > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They sound really
          >> > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
          >> > the lows and
          >> > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you
          >> distort them,
          >> > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very
          >> prominent, but
          >> > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general
          >> soundscape that these
          >> > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did
          >> like the tone, I
          >> > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
          >> > mentioned and a
          >> > good EQ.
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > -----Original Message-----
          >> > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
          >> > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
          >> > To: 2120@...-dod.com
          >> > Cc: mschimke@...
          >> > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0)
          >> available on several of
          >> > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different
          >> types of tubes,
          >> > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
          >> >
          >> > Mark
          >> >
          >> > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
          >> > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section
          >> of their 2120
          >> > etc.?...
          >> > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube variations but
          >> > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed
          >> some light....
          >> > ==================================================================
          >> > =========
          >> > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
          >> > |
          >> > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
          >> > | SUBJECT:
          >> > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
          >> > |
          >> > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
          >> > ==================================================================
          >> > =========
          >> > ==================================================================
          >> > =========
          >> > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
          >> > |
          >> > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
          >> > | SUBJECT:
          >> > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
          >> > |
          >> > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
          >> > ==================================================================
          >> > =========
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >> ==============================================================
          >> =============
          >> | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
          >> |
          >> | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
          >> | SUBJECT:
          >> | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
          >> |
          >> | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
          >> ==============================================================
          >> =============
          >>
          >===========================================================================
          >| "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
          >|
          >| To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
          >| SUBJECT:
          >| MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
          >|
          >| Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
          >===========================================================================
          >

          ===========================================================================
          | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
          |
          | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
          | SUBJECT:
          | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
          |
          | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
          ===========================================================================
        • Sheremata, Dave
          lol :-) The 1 beer 4 beer tone theory is definitely the biggest impediment to my tone quest! I ve heard that all of the Mesa Tubes are rebranded Sovteks for
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 1, 1999
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            lol :-) The 1 beer 4 beer tone theory is definitely the biggest impediment
            to my tone quest!
            I've heard that all of the Mesa Tubes are rebranded Sovteks for the past 5
            years or so. Sovtek really scooped up all the OEM business for tubes - I
            think just about all the fenders and marshalls come stock with them too
            (rebranded) nowadays...not sure though.



            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Don Belanger [mailto:don@...]
            > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:40 PM
            > To: Sheremata, Dave; 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
            > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
            >
            >
            > I also went through a 12AX7 shoot-out a few years back using
            > a Hughes and
            > Kettner Attax rack mount pre-amp running direct as the test
            > unit. I had a
            > friend who was a tube nut and collected everything he could
            > find. He gave me
            > a bag of about 10 different 12AX7's (some labeled, some not). I wasn't
            > paying attention to which were which cause he told me I could
            > keep the 2
            > best sounding ones I found. There were differences between
            > all of them (some
            > very noticeable, some only noticiable to the extremely!!!!! anally
            > retentive - about as noticeable as a fresh set of strings, or
            > late night
            > tone vs. early morning tone, or 1 beer tone vs. 4 beer
            > tone............). In
            > my experience, find a Mesa Boogie dealer and buy a matched
            > pair of their
            > stock of Boogie labeled 12AX7's. I don't know who
            > manufactures the tubes for
            > boogie (Russia? China?) but they go thru a pretty good
            > weeding out process
            > to come up with their matched sets.
            >
            > P.S. Check out a Line 6 Flextone - 60 watt model with the
            > single 12" (I put
            > a Celestian Classic 30 in mine) if you want to hear a pretty damn good
            > modeling amp.
            >
            > Don B.
            > Chula Vista, CA
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Sheremata, Dave <Dave.Sheremata@...>
            > To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail) <2120@...-dod.com>
            > Date: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 10:58 AM
            > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
            >
            >
            > >Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post...
            > >I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what
            > it's all about.
            > I
            > >pretty much believe that too. I just can't afford it! :( Ask many a
            > >guitarist, and they describe their dream setup as a Vox AC30
            > (or two),
            > *and*
            > >a Marshall mkii *and* fender Bassman (or super reverb, or tweed, or
            > deville,
            > >etc etc.. *and* a boogie, etc. etc. :)... .It's my dream
            > too, to have any
            > >sound in the world on the drop of a dime, and have it sound
            > beautiful...
            > but
            > >isn't that why most people pick the 2120 in the first place?
            > So they can
            > >really get a wide range of good sounds without having a wall
            > of amps and a
            > >whole lot of debt? For me it was anyway - I mostly love my
            > 2120 because of
            > >the preamp, not so much everything else in the digital
            > chain. I don't wind
            > >up emulating tones, but coming up with them.
            > >Hope I don't sound like I'm ranting... I don't mean to...
            > I'm just obsessed
            > >:)
            > >Well, I'm using a peavey classic 50/50. Love this amp. I've
            > posted many
            > >raves about this amp before in the past, so I'll spare half
            > of the hype
            > that
            > >I usually post, unless you really want more details. ;)
            > >I did try pulling 4 of the el84s out, to see what the thing
            > sounds like
            > >overdriven. (It's kind of scary overdriving a 100 watt amp.)
            > It was still
            > >too loud overdriving it at 25 watts on one channel alone,
            > and I also felt
            > >pretty scared that I'd blow the output transformer :o , so I
            > put the tubes
            > >back in and run it clean. The preamp distoriotions of 2120
            > really sounded
            > >great in combination with the el84's. I think I was using a
            > Telefunken and
            > >a Sylavania at the time...
            > >As for the Peavey's affect on the tone when it's run clean,
            > It still does
            > >seem to me that it enhances the harmonics already brought
            > out by the 2120 -
            > >IMHO, I think it's because it's class a/b, so there's cross-over
            > distortion.
            > >
            > >Anyway, if you don't believe me about the 12ax7 differences,
            > all I can say
            > >is that you have to try it. I was skeptical too. None of
            > them do truly
            > >sound like power-tube distortion, but they do have different
            > traits, and
            > >some are more preferable to others, at least to me.
            > >Hey Steve, what's driving your speakers? What does it sound
            > like and how
            > do
            > >you like it?
            > >I love the age old debate on tone - but in the end it's all
            > subjective,
            > >ain't it? :) The world of guitars is great because it's
            > like alchemy, and
            > >there's no telling what someone else will come up with.
            > Anyone else have
            > >opinions/preferences/experiences with their 2120 vs. true
            > cranked amp tone?
            > >
            > >Dave
            > >
            > >> -----Original Message-----
            > >> From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
            > >> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:31 PM
            > >> To: 2120@...-dod.com
            > >> Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what
            > >> power amp you are
            > >> using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
            > >> significantly to the tone.
            > >>
            > >> Steve Cavanaugh
            > >>
            > >> > -----Original Message-----
            > >> > From: 2120@...-dod.com
            > [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
            > >> > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
            > >> > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
            > >> > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
            > >> > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
            > >> >
            > >> > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest
            > >> obsession: 12ax7
            > >> > TUBES!
            > >> >
            > >> > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that
            > >> different preamp
            > >> > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
            > >> >
            > >> > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a
            > >> personal Tone
            > >> > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been
            > >> trying to find
            > >> > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the
            > >> other tube-heads
            > >> > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
            > >> > differences
            > >> > between
            > >> > them all...
            > >> >
            > >> > So far I've tried:
            > >> > Sovtek 12ax7a
            > >> > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
            > >> > Sovtek 12ax7lps
            > >> > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
            > >> > Ei 12ax7a
            > >> > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
            > >> > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
            > >> > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
            > >> > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
            > >> >
            > >> > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different
            > >> tubes, but some of
            > >> > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then,
            > >> and others just
            > >> > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
            > >> >
            > >> > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender
            > >> sounds to bassy
            > >> > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of
            > >> time, because I've
            > >> > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them
            > >> and trying to
            > >> > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing.
            > >> Anyway, my whole
            > >> > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
            > >> > favourites so far:
            > >> >
            > >> > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
            > >> > lean a little
            > >> > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
            > >> > responsive to
            > >> > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
            > >> > with a touch
            > >> > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies... They look a
            > >> > lot like a
            > >> > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like
            > >> them, but they
            > >> > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part
            > >> of someones
            > >> > favourite tone.
            > >> >
            > >> > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele
            > >> smooth plate.
            > >> > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
            > >> > one? They are
            > >> > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It
            > >> doesn't have the same
            > >> > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow.
            > >> Well rounded
            > >> > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same
            > >> richness in the
            > >> > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the
            > >> other tubes.
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been
            > >> comparing all these
            > >> > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth
            > to them. The
            > >> > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too
            > >> grainy. I found I
            > >> > could drive them with high compressor output even at low
            > >> gain on the "warm
            > >> > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding
            > >> power-tube
            > >> > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't
            > >> for the fact
            > >> > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I
            > >> plug it in. My
            > >> > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here.
            > >> However, I have to
            > >> > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try
            > >> to help save the
            > >> > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
            > >> > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They
            > sound really
            > >> > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
            > >> > the lows and
            > >> > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you
            > >> distort them,
            > >> > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very
            > >> prominent, but
            > >> > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general
            > >> soundscape that these
            > >> > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did
            > >> like the tone, I
            > >> > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
            > >> > mentioned and a
            > >> > good EQ.
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > -----Original Message-----
            > >> > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
            > >> > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
            > >> > To: 2120@...-dod.com
            > >> > Cc: mschimke@...
            > >> > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >> > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0)
            > >> available on several of
            > >> > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different
            > >> types of tubes,
            > >> > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
            > >> >
            > >> > Mark
            > >> >
            > >> > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
            > >> > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section
            > >> of their 2120
            > >> > etc.?...
            > >> > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube
            > variations but
            > >> > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed
            > >> some light....
            > >> >
            > ==================================================================
            > >> > =========
            > >> > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
            > >> > |
            > >> > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
            > >> > | SUBJECT:
            > >> > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
            > >> > |
            > >> > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
            > >> >
            > ==================================================================
            > >> > =========
            > >> >
            > ==================================================================
            > >> > =========
            > >> > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
            > >> > |
            > >> > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
            > >> > | SUBJECT:
            > >> > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
            > >> > |
            > >> > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
            > >> >
            > ==================================================================
            > >> > =========
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >>
            > >> ==============================================================
            > >> =============
            > >> | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
            > >> |
            > >> | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
            > >> | SUBJECT:
            > >> | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
            > >> |
            > >> | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
            > >> ==============================================================
            > >> =============
            > >>
            > >=============================================================
            ==============
            > >| "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
            > >|
            > >| To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
            > >| SUBJECT:
            > >| MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
            > >|
            > >| Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
            > >=============================================================
            ==============
            > >
            >
            ===========================================================================
            | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
            |
            | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
            | SUBJECT:
            | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
            |
            | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
            ===========================================================================
          • Steve Cavanaugh
            Dave, it has been a very long road to where I am now. I started a number of years ago playing a Les Paul through a Mesa Boogie MK III, and I had one really
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 1, 1999
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
              Dave, it has been a very long road to where I am now. I started a number of
              years ago playing a Les Paul through a Mesa Boogie MK III, and I had one
              really great sound. One.

              One thing led to another and I started playing a Telecaster that was
              practically given to me. But it didn't work so great through the Mesa
              Boogie so I bought a Fender Blues Deluxe. Cleaner, but with a Tube
              Screamer, I had two really great sounds. But it distorted at high volume
              (the kind you don't want).

              So I took my Mesa and traded it for a Fender Blues Deluxe. More input gain,
              ten inch speakers, and twice as heavy at 60 watts vs. the Deluxe's 40. This
              kills! But something was missing - I still only had really two good sounds.

              So I bought a new guitar - a Don Grosh Bent Top Custom - a beautiful thing!
              But it's output was quite a bit lower than the tele, and it didn't drive any
              of my stomp boxes the same, so I bought a new Rivera Knucklehead 55 with a
              212 cab. Better, but once I got out on the gig I couldn't get quite what I
              heard in the music store.

              So I tried the Rivera head with the 10" speakers on my DeVille. Better!
              Off I go to order a Rivera 410 cabinet. But when it came, it didn't have
              the same speakers as my DeVille, so it sounded weird. So I ordered four
              Fender replacement speakers for the DeVille and put them in the Rivera 410
              cab. Better!

              But the Rivera really only has two channels, with boost on each, so that's
              really only four sounds, and I still wasn't happy with the clean channel, in
              either black-face or tweed mode. So I happened to be in Musician's Friend
              one day and they were closing out a load of stuff, and I spied my 2120 on
              sale for $600. Sold! And a hell of a lot better!

              Running the 2120 into the Rivera Knucklehead 55 effects return gives me an
              EL34 powered mono tube power amp, and all the sounds I could ever ask for.
              I think I'm finally there! But wait - the 2120 is stereo....

              So I just bought a Marshall 2020 EL84 stereo power amp. Now I have the 2120
              running into the 2020, which is running into the 410 Rivera which is wired
              stereo. Egad! But wait, the 2020 doesn't sound ANYTHING like the Rivera
              power amp. It's amazing the difference. I may have to duplicate all my
              patches and tailor the eq on them for the 2020 so that I can switch back and
              forth between stereo and mono depending on my situation. Or maybe the cab
              emulators, or....

              Anyway, tone has been an eternal quest for me. And yes, I should be
              practicing more, but hells bells, why would I WANT to practice if my tone
              sucks?

              Steve


              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
              > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
              > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:55 AM
              > To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
              > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
              >
              >
              > Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post...
              > I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what it's
              > all about. I
              > pretty much believe that too. I just can't afford it! :( Ask many a
              > guitarist, and they describe their dream setup as a Vox AC30 (or
              > two), *and*
              > a Marshall mkii *and* fender Bassman (or super reverb, or tweed,
              > or deville,
              > etc etc.. *and* a boogie, etc. etc. :)... .It's my dream too, to have any
              > sound in the world on the drop of a dime, and have it sound
              > beautiful... but
              > isn't that why most people pick the 2120 in the first place? So they can
              > really get a wide range of good sounds without having a wall of amps and a
              > whole lot of debt? For me it was anyway - I mostly love my 2120
              > because of
              > the preamp, not so much everything else in the digital chain. I
              > don't wind
              > up emulating tones, but coming up with them.
              > Hope I don't sound like I'm ranting... I don't mean to... I'm
              > just obsessed
              > :)
              > Well, I'm using a peavey classic 50/50. Love this amp. I've posted many
              > raves about this amp before in the past, so I'll spare half of
              > the hype that
              > I usually post, unless you really want more details. ;)
              > I did try pulling 4 of the el84s out, to see what the thing sounds like
              > overdriven. (It's kind of scary overdriving a 100 watt amp.) It was still
              > too loud overdriving it at 25 watts on one channel alone, and I also felt
              > pretty scared that I'd blow the output transformer :o , so I put the tubes
              > back in and run it clean. The preamp distoriotions of 2120
              > really sounded
              > great in combination with the el84's. I think I was using a
              > Telefunken and
              > a Sylavania at the time...
              > As for the Peavey's affect on the tone when it's run clean, It still does
              > seem to me that it enhances the harmonics already brought out by
              > the 2120 -
              > IMHO, I think it's because it's class a/b, so there's cross-over
              > distortion.
              >
              > Anyway, if you don't believe me about the 12ax7 differences, all I can say
              > is that you have to try it. I was skeptical too. None of them do truly
              > sound like power-tube distortion, but they do have different traits, and
              > some are more preferable to others, at least to me.
              > Hey Steve, what's driving your speakers? What does it sound like
              > and how do
              > you like it?
              > I love the age old debate on tone - but in the end it's all subjective,
              > ain't it? :) The world of guitars is great because it's like alchemy, and
              > there's no telling what someone else will come up with. Anyone else have
              > opinions/preferences/experiences with their 2120 vs. true cranked
              > amp tone?
              >
              > Dave
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
              > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:31 PM
              > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
              > > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
              > >
              > >
              > > Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what
              > > power amp you are
              > > using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
              > > significantly to the tone.
              > >
              > > Steve Cavanaugh
              > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
              > > > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
              > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
              > > > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
              > > > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
              > > >
              > > > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest
              > > obsession: 12ax7
              > > > TUBES!
              > > >
              > > > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that
              > > different preamp
              > > > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
              > > >
              > > > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a
              > > personal Tone
              > > > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been
              > > trying to find
              > > > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the
              > > other tube-heads
              > > > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
              > > > differences
              > > > between
              > > > them all...
              > > >
              > > > So far I've tried:
              > > > Sovtek 12ax7a
              > > > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
              > > > Sovtek 12ax7lps
              > > > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
              > > > Ei 12ax7a
              > > > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
              > > > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
              > > > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
              > > > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
              > > >
              > > > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different
              > > tubes, but some of
              > > > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then,
              > > and others just
              > > > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
              > > >
              > > > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender
              > > sounds to bassy
              > > > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of
              > > time, because I've
              > > > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them
              > > and trying to
              > > > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing.
              > > Anyway, my whole
              > > > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
              > > > favourites so far:
              > > >
              > > > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
              > > > lean a little
              > > > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
              > > > responsive to
              > > > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
              > > > with a touch
              > > > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies... They look a
              > > > lot like a
              > > > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like
              > > them, but they
              > > > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part
              > > of someones
              > > > favourite tone.
              > > >
              > > > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele
              > > smooth plate.
              > > > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
              > > > one? They are
              > > > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It
              > > doesn't have the same
              > > > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow.
              > > Well rounded
              > > > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same
              > > richness in the
              > > > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the
              > > other tubes.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been
              > > comparing all these
              > > > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth to them. The
              > > > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too
              > > grainy. I found I
              > > > could drive them with high compressor output even at low
              > > gain on the "warm
              > > > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding
              > > power-tube
              > > > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't
              > > for the fact
              > > > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I
              > > plug it in. My
              > > > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here.
              > > However, I have to
              > > > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try
              > > to help save the
              > > > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
              > > > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They sound really
              > > > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
              > > > the lows and
              > > > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you
              > > distort them,
              > > > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very
              > > prominent, but
              > > > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general
              > > soundscape that these
              > > > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did
              > > like the tone, I
              > > > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
              > > > mentioned and a
              > > > good EQ.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
              > > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
              > > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
              > > > Cc: mschimke@...
              > > > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0)
              > > available on several of
              > > > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different
              > > types of tubes,
              > > > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
              > > >
              > > > Mark
              > > >
              > > > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
              > > > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section
              > > of their 2120
              > > > etc.?...
              > > > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube variations but
              > > > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed
              > > some light....
              > > > ==================================================================
              > > > =========
              > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
              > > > |
              > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
              > > > | SUBJECT:
              > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
              > > > |
              > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
              > > > ==================================================================
              > > > =========
              > > > ==================================================================
              > > > =========
              > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
              > > > |
              > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
              > > > | SUBJECT:
              > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
              > > > |
              > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
              > > > ==================================================================
              > > > =========
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ==============================================================
              > > =============
              > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
              > > |
              > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
              > > | SUBJECT:
              > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
              > > |
              > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
              > > ==============================================================
              > > =============
              > >
              > ==================================================================
              > =========
              > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
              > |
              > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
              > | SUBJECT:
              > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
              > |
              > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
              > ==================================================================
              > =========
              >


              ===========================================================================
              | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
              |
              | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
              | SUBJECT:
              | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
              |
              | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
              ===========================================================================
            • Ray Keefe
              Great Post Steve, I really find the same thing. You don t feel like practicing if your tone sucks. Mind you, tone is also in the fingers so part of the
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 1, 1999
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                Great Post Steve,

                I really find the same thing. You don't feel like practicing if your tone
                sucks. Mind you, tone is also in the fingers so part of the reason for
                practice is better tone anyway.

                Happy playing,

                Ray

                ===========================================================================
                | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                |
                | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                | SUBJECT:
                | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                |
                | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                ===========================================================================
              • Steve Cavanaugh
                Arrggggh! ... Should have said Fender Blues DeVille .... I m so confused.....! :-) Steve ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 2, 1999
                View Source
                • 0 Attachment
                  Arrggggh!

                  > One thing led to another and I started playing a Telecaster that was
                  > practically given to me. But it didn't work so great through the Mesa
                  > Boogie so I bought a Fender Blues Deluxe.


                  Should have said "Fender Blues DeVille".... I'm so confused.....! :-)

                  Steve


                  ===========================================================================
                  | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                  |
                  | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                  | SUBJECT:
                  | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                  |
                  | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                  ===========================================================================
                • Sheremata, Dave
                  All my sympathies Steve ;). Dang, those all sound like great amps you had! Sounds like you could do well with a pair of Marshall 6101 anniversary combos!
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 2, 1999
                  View Source
                  • 0 Attachment
                    All my sympathies Steve ;). Dang, those all sound like great amps you had!
                    Sounds like you could do well with a pair of Marshall 6101 anniversary
                    combos! (Midi Switching for ya!) Or at least some kind of MIDI controlled
                    A/B switch to route to your rivera and your 2020. Anyone seen one of these?
                    ( in stereo? )

                    On that thread, I've been trying so find a MIDI controlled product that lets
                    me switch speakers on the same power amp too - that's hard to find!
                    Speakers not only sound different themselves, but also change the way you
                    power amp affects the tone. My speaker experiments may have to wait a while
                    though... That could take forever!
                    Another wierd idea Ive been considering is buying a couple those old 50s
                    home hi-fi stereo power amps, hodgepodging the wiring + connections. Then I
                    could switch between multiple power amps. The nice part about some of
                    those old amps is you can find 'em for $20 - $50 on ebay... sometimes old
                    Jenson/Celestion speakers too! Now thats a cheap way to get some juicy
                    tone!

                    Anybody on the list ever check this stuff out?
                    http://www.cybtrans.com/guitar/
                    I browse Cybermonks articles every few months or so... I dig it, but wanted
                    some other opinions on it.. he does have a few articles on 2120/2112/2101
                    stuff, and how it relates to guitar tone... check it out..


                    Dave

                    P.S., I've been posting a whole lot, eh? Too much maybe? I should get some
                    work done!

                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
                    > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:14 AM
                    > To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
                    > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                    >
                    >
                    > Dave, it has been a very long road to where I am now. I
                    > started a number of
                    > years ago playing a Les Paul through a Mesa Boogie MK III,
                    > and I had one
                    > really great sound. One.
                    >
                    > One thing led to another and I started playing a Telecaster that was
                    > practically given to me. But it didn't work so great through the Mesa
                    > Boogie so I bought a Fender Blues Deluxe. Cleaner, but with a Tube
                    > Screamer, I had two really great sounds. But it distorted at
                    > high volume
                    > (the kind you don't want).
                    >
                    > So I took my Mesa and traded it for a Fender Blues Deluxe.
                    > More input gain,
                    > ten inch speakers, and twice as heavy at 60 watts vs. the
                    > Deluxe's 40. This
                    > kills! But something was missing - I still only had really
                    > two good sounds.
                    >
                    > So I bought a new guitar - a Don Grosh Bent Top Custom - a
                    > beautiful thing!
                    > But it's output was quite a bit lower than the tele, and it
                    > didn't drive any
                    > of my stomp boxes the same, so I bought a new Rivera
                    > Knucklehead 55 with a
                    > 212 cab. Better, but once I got out on the gig I couldn't
                    > get quite what I
                    > heard in the music store.
                    >
                    > So I tried the Rivera head with the 10" speakers on my
                    > DeVille. Better!
                    > Off I go to order a Rivera 410 cabinet. But when it came, it
                    > didn't have
                    > the same speakers as my DeVille, so it sounded weird. So I
                    > ordered four
                    > Fender replacement speakers for the DeVille and put them in
                    > the Rivera 410
                    > cab. Better!
                    >
                    > But the Rivera really only has two channels, with boost on
                    > each, so that's
                    > really only four sounds, and I still wasn't happy with the
                    > clean channel, in
                    > either black-face or tweed mode. So I happened to be in
                    > Musician's Friend
                    > one day and they were closing out a load of stuff, and I
                    > spied my 2120 on
                    > sale for $600. Sold! And a hell of a lot better!
                    >
                    > Running the 2120 into the Rivera Knucklehead 55 effects
                    > return gives me an
                    > EL34 powered mono tube power amp, and all the sounds I could
                    > ever ask for.
                    > I think I'm finally there! But wait - the 2120 is stereo....
                    >
                    > So I just bought a Marshall 2020 EL84 stereo power amp. Now
                    > I have the 2120
                    > running into the 2020, which is running into the 410 Rivera
                    > which is wired
                    > stereo. Egad! But wait, the 2020 doesn't sound ANYTHING
                    > like the Rivera
                    > power amp. It's amazing the difference. I may have to
                    > duplicate all my
                    > patches and tailor the eq on them for the 2020 so that I can
                    > switch back and
                    > forth between stereo and mono depending on my situation. Or
                    > maybe the cab
                    > emulators, or....
                    >
                    > Anyway, tone has been an eternal quest for me. And yes, I should be
                    > practicing more, but hells bells, why would I WANT to
                    > practice if my tone
                    > sucks?
                    >
                    > Steve
                    >
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
                    > > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
                    > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:55 AM
                    > > To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
                    > > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post...
                    > > I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what it's
                    > > all about. I
                    > > pretty much believe that too. I just can't afford it! :( Ask many a
                    > > guitarist, and they describe their dream setup as a Vox AC30 (or
                    > > two), *and*
                    > > a Marshall mkii *and* fender Bassman (or super reverb, or tweed,
                    > > or deville,
                    > > etc etc.. *and* a boogie, etc. etc. :)... .It's my dream
                    > too, to have any
                    > > sound in the world on the drop of a dime, and have it sound
                    > > beautiful... but
                    > > isn't that why most people pick the 2120 in the first
                    > place? So they can
                    > > really get a wide range of good sounds without having a
                    > wall of amps and a
                    > > whole lot of debt? For me it was anyway - I mostly love my 2120
                    > > because of
                    > > the preamp, not so much everything else in the digital chain. I
                    > > don't wind
                    > > up emulating tones, but coming up with them.
                    > > Hope I don't sound like I'm ranting... I don't mean to... I'm
                    > > just obsessed
                    > > :)
                    > > Well, I'm using a peavey classic 50/50. Love this amp.
                    > I've posted many
                    > > raves about this amp before in the past, so I'll spare half of
                    > > the hype that
                    > > I usually post, unless you really want more details. ;)
                    > > I did try pulling 4 of the el84s out, to see what the thing
                    > sounds like
                    > > overdriven. (It's kind of scary overdriving a 100 watt
                    > amp.) It was still
                    > > too loud overdriving it at 25 watts on one channel alone,
                    > and I also felt
                    > > pretty scared that I'd blow the output transformer :o , so
                    > I put the tubes
                    > > back in and run it clean. The preamp distoriotions of 2120
                    > > really sounded
                    > > great in combination with the el84's. I think I was using a
                    > > Telefunken and
                    > > a Sylavania at the time...
                    > > As for the Peavey's affect on the tone when it's run clean,
                    > It still does
                    > > seem to me that it enhances the harmonics already brought out by
                    > > the 2120 -
                    > > IMHO, I think it's because it's class a/b, so there's cross-over
                    > > distortion.
                    > >
                    > > Anyway, if you don't believe me about the 12ax7
                    > differences, all I can say
                    > > is that you have to try it. I was skeptical too. None of
                    > them do truly
                    > > sound like power-tube distortion, but they do have
                    > different traits, and
                    > > some are more preferable to others, at least to me.
                    > > Hey Steve, what's driving your speakers? What does it sound like
                    > > and how do
                    > > you like it?
                    > > I love the age old debate on tone - but in the end it's all
                    > subjective,
                    > > ain't it? :) The world of guitars is great because it's
                    > like alchemy, and
                    > > there's no telling what someone else will come up with.
                    > Anyone else have
                    > > opinions/preferences/experiences with their 2120 vs. true cranked
                    > > amp tone?
                    > >
                    > > Dave
                    > >
                    > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
                    > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:31 PM
                    > > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
                    > > > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what
                    > > > power amp you are
                    > > > using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
                    > > > significantly to the tone.
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve Cavanaugh
                    > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: 2120@...-dod.com
                    > [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
                    > > > > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
                    > > > > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
                    > > > > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest
                    > > > obsession: 12ax7
                    > > > > TUBES!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that
                    > > > different preamp
                    > > > > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a
                    > > > personal Tone
                    > > > > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been
                    > > > trying to find
                    > > > > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the
                    > > > other tube-heads
                    > > > > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
                    > > > > differences
                    > > > > between
                    > > > > them all...
                    > > > >
                    > > > > So far I've tried:
                    > > > > Sovtek 12ax7a
                    > > > > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
                    > > > > Sovtek 12ax7lps
                    > > > > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
                    > > > > Ei 12ax7a
                    > > > > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
                    > > > > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
                    > > > > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
                    > > > > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different
                    > > > tubes, but some of
                    > > > > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then,
                    > > > and others just
                    > > > > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender
                    > > > sounds to bassy
                    > > > > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of
                    > > > time, because I've
                    > > > > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them
                    > > > and trying to
                    > > > > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing.
                    > > > Anyway, my whole
                    > > > > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
                    > > > > favourites so far:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
                    > > > > lean a little
                    > > > > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
                    > > > > responsive to
                    > > > > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
                    > > > > with a touch
                    > > > > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies...
                    > They look a
                    > > > > lot like a
                    > > > > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like
                    > > > them, but they
                    > > > > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part
                    > > > of someones
                    > > > > favourite tone.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele
                    > > > smooth plate.
                    > > > > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
                    > > > > one? They are
                    > > > > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It
                    > > > doesn't have the same
                    > > > > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow.
                    > > > Well rounded
                    > > > > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same
                    > > > richness in the
                    > > > > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the
                    > > > other tubes.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been
                    > > > comparing all these
                    > > > > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth
                    > to them. The
                    > > > > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too
                    > > > grainy. I found I
                    > > > > could drive them with high compressor output even at low
                    > > > gain on the "warm
                    > > > > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding
                    > > > power-tube
                    > > > > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't
                    > > > for the fact
                    > > > > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I
                    > > > plug it in. My
                    > > > > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here.
                    > > > However, I have to
                    > > > > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try
                    > > > to help save the
                    > > > > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
                    > > > > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They
                    > sound really
                    > > > > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
                    > > > > the lows and
                    > > > > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you
                    > > > distort them,
                    > > > > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very
                    > > > prominent, but
                    > > > > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general
                    > > > soundscape that these
                    > > > > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did
                    > > > like the tone, I
                    > > > > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
                    > > > > mentioned and a
                    > > > > good EQ.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
                    > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
                    > > > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
                    > > > > Cc: mschimke@...
                    > > > > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0)
                    > > > available on several of
                    > > > > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different
                    > > > types of tubes,
                    > > > > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mark
                    > > > >
                    > > > > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
                    > > > > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section
                    > > > of their 2120
                    > > > > etc.?...
                    > > > > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube
                    > variations but
                    > > > > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed
                    > > > some light....
                    > > > >
                    > ==================================================================
                    > > > > =========
                    > > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                    > > > > |
                    > > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                    > > > > | SUBJECT:
                    > > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                    > > > > |
                    > > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                    > > > >
                    > ==================================================================
                    > > > > =========
                    > > > >
                    > ==================================================================
                    > > > > =========
                    > > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                    > > > > |
                    > > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                    > > > > | SUBJECT:
                    > > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                    > > > > |
                    > > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                    > > > >
                    > ==================================================================
                    > > > > =========
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ==============================================================
                    > > > =============
                    > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                    > > > |
                    > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                    > > > | SUBJECT:
                    > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                    > > > |
                    > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                    > > > ==============================================================
                    > > > =============
                    > > >
                    > > ==================================================================
                    > > =========
                    > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                    > > |
                    > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                    > > | SUBJECT:
                    > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                    > > |
                    > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                    > > ==================================================================
                    > > =========
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > ==============================================================
                    > =============
                    > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                    > |
                    > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                    > | SUBJECT:
                    > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                    > |
                    > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                    > ==============================================================
                    > =============
                    >
                    ===========================================================================
                    | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                    |
                    | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                    | SUBJECT:
                    | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                    |
                    | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                    ===========================================================================
                  • Steve Cavanaugh
                    Dave, you reminded me, I left out my Rocktron Patchmate. I have one of those too. It has nine relays in it. Each relay has an input jack, an output jack, a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 2, 1999
                    View Source
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dave, you reminded me, I left out my Rocktron Patchmate. I have one of
                      those too. It has nine relays in it. Each relay has an input jack, an
                      output jack, a send and a return. So you can use each relay to route
                      signals through effects, or you can use them as A/B switches, and each jack
                      has the feature that when the relay is on, one of the jacks has a ground
                      contact, and when the relay is off, the other jack has the ground contact.
                      So you can control non-midi stuff too. And they are all controlled by Midi,
                      and you can store patches of combinations of relays. This gizmo is the
                      tinkerer's dream.

                      At first I used it to switch various preamps into my Mesa Boogie power amp -
                      I have two Peavey Rock Master preamps, and I would switch them or my Mesa
                      preamp through the Rocktron and into the power amp (sound familiar?). But
                      the Peavey preamps are terribly unreliable, although they don't sound half
                      bad. But there's always one channel intermittent. I use two guitars on
                      stage, so I also use the Patchmate to route both guitar signals to whatever
                      preamp I want them routed to. And now that I have the 2120, I use one of
                      the Patchmate's relays to A/B between the 2120 preamp and the Rivera preamp.

                      The Patchmate is kinda expensive (costs more than the 2120 and doesn't make
                      any sound at all!) but I use it constantly.

                      Steve



                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: Sheremata, Dave [mailto:Dave.Sheremata@...]
                      > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 10:30 AM
                      > To: 'Steve Cavanaugh'; 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
                      > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                      >
                      >
                      > All my sympathies Steve ;). Dang, those all sound like great
                      > amps you had!
                      > Sounds like you could do well with a pair of Marshall 6101 anniversary
                      > combos! (Midi Switching for ya!) Or at least some kind of MIDI controlled
                      > A/B switch to route to your rivera and your 2020. Anyone seen
                      > one of these?
                      > ( in stereo? )
                      >
                      > On that thread, I've been trying so find a MIDI controlled
                      > product that lets
                      > me switch speakers on the same power amp too - that's hard to find!
                      > Speakers not only sound different themselves, but also change the way you
                      > power amp affects the tone. My speaker experiments may have to
                      > wait a while
                      > though... That could take forever!
                      > Another wierd idea Ive been considering is buying a couple those old 50s
                      > home hi-fi stereo power amps, hodgepodging the wiring +
                      > connections. Then I
                      > could switch between multiple power amps. The nice part about some of
                      > those old amps is you can find 'em for $20 - $50 on ebay... sometimes old
                      > Jenson/Celestion speakers too! Now thats a cheap way to get some juicy
                      > tone!
                      >
                      > Anybody on the list ever check this stuff out?
                      > http://www.cybtrans.com/guitar/
                      > I browse Cybermonks articles every few months or so... I dig it,
                      > but wanted
                      > some other opinions on it.. he does have a few articles on 2120/2112/2101
                      > stuff, and how it relates to guitar tone... check it out..
                      >
                      >
                      > Dave
                      >
                      > P.S., I've been posting a whole lot, eh? Too much maybe? I should get some
                      > work done!
                      >
                      > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
                      > > Sent: Thursday, September 02, 1999 12:14 AM
                      > > To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
                      > > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dave, it has been a very long road to where I am now. I
                      > > started a number of
                      > > years ago playing a Les Paul through a Mesa Boogie MK III,
                      > > and I had one
                      > > really great sound. One.
                      > >
                      > > One thing led to another and I started playing a Telecaster that was
                      > > practically given to me. But it didn't work so great through the Mesa
                      > > Boogie so I bought a Fender Blues Deluxe. Cleaner, but with a Tube
                      > > Screamer, I had two really great sounds. But it distorted at
                      > > high volume
                      > > (the kind you don't want).
                      > >
                      > > So I took my Mesa and traded it for a Fender Blues Deluxe.
                      > > More input gain,
                      > > ten inch speakers, and twice as heavy at 60 watts vs. the
                      > > Deluxe's 40. This
                      > > kills! But something was missing - I still only had really
                      > > two good sounds.
                      > >
                      > > So I bought a new guitar - a Don Grosh Bent Top Custom - a
                      > > beautiful thing!
                      > > But it's output was quite a bit lower than the tele, and it
                      > > didn't drive any
                      > > of my stomp boxes the same, so I bought a new Rivera
                      > > Knucklehead 55 with a
                      > > 212 cab. Better, but once I got out on the gig I couldn't
                      > > get quite what I
                      > > heard in the music store.
                      > >
                      > > So I tried the Rivera head with the 10" speakers on my
                      > > DeVille. Better!
                      > > Off I go to order a Rivera 410 cabinet. But when it came, it
                      > > didn't have
                      > > the same speakers as my DeVille, so it sounded weird. So I
                      > > ordered four
                      > > Fender replacement speakers for the DeVille and put them in
                      > > the Rivera 410
                      > > cab. Better!
                      > >
                      > > But the Rivera really only has two channels, with boost on
                      > > each, so that's
                      > > really only four sounds, and I still wasn't happy with the
                      > > clean channel, in
                      > > either black-face or tweed mode. So I happened to be in
                      > > Musician's Friend
                      > > one day and they were closing out a load of stuff, and I
                      > > spied my 2120 on
                      > > sale for $600. Sold! And a hell of a lot better!
                      > >
                      > > Running the 2120 into the Rivera Knucklehead 55 effects
                      > > return gives me an
                      > > EL34 powered mono tube power amp, and all the sounds I could
                      > > ever ask for.
                      > > I think I'm finally there! But wait - the 2120 is stereo....
                      > >
                      > > So I just bought a Marshall 2020 EL84 stereo power amp. Now
                      > > I have the 2120
                      > > running into the 2020, which is running into the 410 Rivera
                      > > which is wired
                      > > stereo. Egad! But wait, the 2020 doesn't sound ANYTHING
                      > > like the Rivera
                      > > power amp. It's amazing the difference. I may have to
                      > > duplicate all my
                      > > patches and tailor the eq on them for the 2020 so that I can
                      > > switch back and
                      > > forth between stereo and mono depending on my situation. Or
                      > > maybe the cab
                      > > emulators, or....
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, tone has been an eternal quest for me. And yes, I should be
                      > > practicing more, but hells bells, why would I WANT to
                      > > practice if my tone
                      > > sucks?
                      > >
                      > > Steve
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: 2120@...-dod.com [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
                      > > > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
                      > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 8:55 AM
                      > > > To: 2120@homer. harman-dod. com (E-mail)
                      > > > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Hey Steve, boys and girls... ok, another long winded post...
                      > > > I know I know I know Steve, power tube distortion is what it's
                      > > > all about. I
                      > > > pretty much believe that too. I just can't afford it! :( Ask many a
                      > > > guitarist, and they describe their dream setup as a Vox AC30 (or
                      > > > two), *and*
                      > > > a Marshall mkii *and* fender Bassman (or super reverb, or tweed,
                      > > > or deville,
                      > > > etc etc.. *and* a boogie, etc. etc. :)... .It's my dream
                      > > too, to have any
                      > > > sound in the world on the drop of a dime, and have it sound
                      > > > beautiful... but
                      > > > isn't that why most people pick the 2120 in the first
                      > > place? So they can
                      > > > really get a wide range of good sounds without having a
                      > > wall of amps and a
                      > > > whole lot of debt? For me it was anyway - I mostly love my 2120
                      > > > because of
                      > > > the preamp, not so much everything else in the digital chain. I
                      > > > don't wind
                      > > > up emulating tones, but coming up with them.
                      > > > Hope I don't sound like I'm ranting... I don't mean to... I'm
                      > > > just obsessed
                      > > > :)
                      > > > Well, I'm using a peavey classic 50/50. Love this amp.
                      > > I've posted many
                      > > > raves about this amp before in the past, so I'll spare half of
                      > > > the hype that
                      > > > I usually post, unless you really want more details. ;)
                      > > > I did try pulling 4 of the el84s out, to see what the thing
                      > > sounds like
                      > > > overdriven. (It's kind of scary overdriving a 100 watt
                      > > amp.) It was still
                      > > > too loud overdriving it at 25 watts on one channel alone,
                      > > and I also felt
                      > > > pretty scared that I'd blow the output transformer :o , so
                      > > I put the tubes
                      > > > back in and run it clean. The preamp distoriotions of 2120
                      > > > really sounded
                      > > > great in combination with the el84's. I think I was using a
                      > > > Telefunken and
                      > > > a Sylavania at the time...
                      > > > As for the Peavey's affect on the tone when it's run clean,
                      > > It still does
                      > > > seem to me that it enhances the harmonics already brought out by
                      > > > the 2120 -
                      > > > IMHO, I think it's because it's class a/b, so there's cross-over
                      > > > distortion.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway, if you don't believe me about the 12ax7
                      > > differences, all I can say
                      > > > is that you have to try it. I was skeptical too. None of
                      > > them do truly
                      > > > sound like power-tube distortion, but they do have
                      > > different traits, and
                      > > > some are more preferable to others, at least to me.
                      > > > Hey Steve, what's driving your speakers? What does it sound like
                      > > > and how do
                      > > > you like it?
                      > > > I love the age old debate on tone - but in the end it's all
                      > > subjective,
                      > > > ain't it? :) The world of guitars is great because it's
                      > > like alchemy, and
                      > > > there's no telling what someone else will come up with.
                      > > Anyone else have
                      > > > opinions/preferences/experiences with their 2120 vs. true cranked
                      > > > amp tone?
                      > > >
                      > > > Dave
                      > > >
                      > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > From: Steve Cavanaugh [mailto:scavanaugh@...]
                      > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:31 PM
                      > > > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
                      > > > > Subject: RE: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Fascinating Dave. Would you mind enlightening us on what
                      > > > > power amp you are
                      > > > > using (and what kind of tubes it uses), as this also adds fairly
                      > > > > significantly to the tone.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Steve Cavanaugh
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: 2120@...-dod.com
                      > > [mailto:2120@...-dod.com]On
                      > > > > > Behalf Of Sheremata, Dave
                      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 12:26 PM
                      > > > > > To: '2120@...-dod.com'
                      > > > > > Subject: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Hi guys. (and all readers of all other sexes)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > This could be a bit of a long one... it's about my latest
                      > > > > obsession: 12ax7
                      > > > > > TUBES!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I noticed the other day that Mike Mahoney mentioned that
                      > > > > different preamp
                      > > > > > tubes don't change your sound. Mike, I respectfully disagree.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I've been trying out a whole bunch of tubes, on a bit of a
                      > > > > personal Tone
                      > > > > > Quest. Just this week I tried out three more. I've been
                      > > > > trying to find
                      > > > > > tubes that sound most like my own favourite (and all the
                      > > > > other tube-heads
                      > > > > > out there) Telefunkens. I was actually really surprised at the
                      > > > > > differences
                      > > > > > between
                      > > > > > them all...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > So far I've tried:
                      > > > > > Sovtek 12ax7a
                      > > > > > Sovtek 12ax7waxt+
                      > > > > > Sovtek 12ax7lps
                      > > > > > Cheap Chinese tubes (apparently what Ruby uses)
                      > > > > > Ei 12ax7a
                      > > > > > JJ/Tesla 12ax7
                      > > > > > NOS JAN 7025s (I think manufactured by GE)
                      > > > > > NOS Sylvania 12ax7a/7025
                      > > > > > NOS Smooth plate Telefunken 12ax7!!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I know that the 2101 FAQ has a lot of info on different
                      > > > > tubes, but some of
                      > > > > > the ones that I tested weren't in production around then,
                      > > > > and others just
                      > > > > > aren't mentioned by the FAQ.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > I tried many styles of music, from bright clean fender
                      > > > > sounds to bassy
                      > > > > > crumbly distorted sounds. It actually takes a lot of
                      > > > > time, because I've
                      > > > > > been testing them over and over, getting a feel for them
                      > > > > and trying to
                      > > > > > account for differences in my own ears/mood/playing.
                      > > > > Anyway, my whole
                      > > > > > review will have to wait for later, but here are my three
                      > > > > > favourites so far:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > #3 NOS Sylvania 7025/12ax7a--- Cleans are very nice, but they
                      > > > > > lean a little
                      > > > > > to the brighter end. Lows are a little lacking, and not very
                      > > > > > responsive to
                      > > > > > tone adjutments in that direction. When overdrive, sandy tones
                      > > > > > with a touch
                      > > > > > of speckling like effect on the higher frequencies...
                      > > They look a
                      > > > > > lot like a
                      > > > > > telefunken, with long plates and all. They don't sound like
                      > > > > them, but they
                      > > > > > do sound really nice. I could easily see them being a part
                      > > > > of someones
                      > > > > > favourite tone.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > #2 Sovtek 12ax7lps --- Strange tube - looks like a Tele
                      > > > > smooth plate.
                      > > > > > They're supposed to be a Telefunken clone. Do they sound like
                      > > > > > one? They are
                      > > > > > in fact most telefunken like sound I could find. It
                      > > > > doesn't have the same
                      > > > > > kind of ring though - a little bit drier tasting, somehow.
                      > > > > Well rounded
                      > > > > > and even frequency response, and delivers the almost same
                      > > > > richness in the
                      > > > > > low end as the telefunkens... At least more than any of the
                      > > > > other tubes.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > #1 Telefunken 12ax7 (smoothplate) --- Why have I been
                      > > > > comparing all these
                      > > > > > tubes to this one? Clean sounds have a beautiful depth
                      > > to them. The
                      > > > > > distorted sounds have a bottom end, without getting too
                      > > > > grainy. I found I
                      > > > > > could drive them with high compressor output even at low
                      > > > > gain on the "warm
                      > > > > > clean" setting, and get as closer to a nice EL-34 sounding
                      > > > > power-tube
                      > > > > > distortion than I could with any other tube. If it weren't
                      > > > > for the fact
                      > > > > > that I feel like I'm killing endangered animals whenever I
                      > > > > plug it in. My
                      > > > > > quest for the best preamp tubes would have ended here.
                      > > > > However, I have to
                      > > > > > search for cheaper, more readily available tubes, and try
                      > > > > to help save the
                      > > > > > poor endangered Telefunken population of tubes out there!
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Note the Big Big Loser Tube:
                      > > > > > Tesla 12ax7 :( These tubes are just not for me. They
                      > > sound really
                      > > > > > compressed when pressed with some gain, and lack definition in
                      > > > > > the lows and
                      > > > > > the highs. A very prominent mid-range tone. But when you
                      > > > > distort them,
                      > > > > > yich... You get this high end buzzy sound that is not very
                      > > > > prominent, but
                      > > > > > kind of distracting. Not very musical. The general
                      > > > > soundscape that these
                      > > > > > tubes deliver is just gross. I think that even if I did
                      > > > > like the tone, I
                      > > > > > could emulate it closely with any of the other tubes that I
                      > > > > > mentioned and a
                      > > > > > good EQ.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: Mark Shapiro [mailto:shapiro@...]
                      > > > > > Sent: Thursday, August 26, 1999 2:18 AM
                      > > > > > To: 2120@...-dod.com
                      > > > > > Cc: mschimke@...
                      > > > > > Subject: Re: 2120: 2120 preamp tube options...
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Mark, you should check out the "2101 FAQ" (ver3.0)
                      > > > > available on several of
                      > > > > > the 2101 web pages. There's GOBS of info on the different
                      > > > > types of tubes,
                      > > > > > much if not all would apply to the 2120.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Mark
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > At 09:39 PM 8/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
                      > > > > > >Anyone out there try different tubes in the gain section
                      > > > > of their 2120
                      > > > > > etc.?...
                      > > > > > >Have been thinking about trying out a number of tube
                      > > variations but
                      > > > > > >don't want to reinvent the wheel, so, if anyone can shed
                      > > > > some light....
                      > > > > >
                      > > ==================================================================
                      > > > > > =========
                      > > > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                      > > > > > |
                      > > > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                      > > > > > | SUBJECT:
                      > > > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                      > > > > > |
                      > > > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                      > > > > >
                      > > ==================================================================
                      > > > > > =========
                      > > > > >
                      > > ==================================================================
                      > > > > > =========
                      > > > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                      > > > > > |
                      > > > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                      > > > > > | SUBJECT:
                      > > > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                      > > > > > |
                      > > > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                      > > > > >
                      > > ==================================================================
                      > > > > > =========
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ==============================================================
                      > > > > =============
                      > > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                      > > > > |
                      > > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                      > > > > | SUBJECT:
                      > > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                      > > > > |
                      > > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                      > > > > ==============================================================
                      > > > > =============
                      > > > >
                      > > > ==================================================================
                      > > > =========
                      > > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                      > > > |
                      > > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                      > > > | SUBJECT:
                      > > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                      > > > |
                      > > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                      > > > ==================================================================
                      > > > =========
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ==============================================================
                      > > =============
                      > > | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                      > > |
                      > > | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                      > > | SUBJECT:
                      > > | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                      > > |
                      > > | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                      > > ==============================================================
                      > > =============
                      > >
                      >


                      ===========================================================================
                      | "DigiTech 2112/2120 Users List" <2120@...>
                      |
                      | To UNSUBSCRIBE, email... TO: majordomo@...
                      | SUBJECT:
                      | MESSAGE: unsubscribe 2120
                      |
                      | Or email direct... 2120-owner@...
                      ===========================================================================
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.