Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [20thMass] Re: Andersonville

Expand Messages
  • jimmy thomason
    Kevin,I agree. Wirz s trial and subsequent hanging were for vengance rather than justice. Had the South won the war, I m sure that the commandants of Elmira
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 20, 2007
    View Source
    • 0 Attachment
      Kevin,I agree. Wirz's trial and subsequent hanging were for  vengance rather than justice. Had the South won the war, I'm sure that the commandants of Elmira and Point Lookout  POW camps (et al)would have met with a similar fate (as Wirz) as they were guilty of the same things. (FWIW: my gggrandfather was with the 64th Ga.Inf.Reg.Co.K. was imprisoned at Point Lookout in Md. and died as a result of abuse and neglect.) Best regards:Jimmy

      Kevin Frye <Frye@...> wrote:
      Hi George,
          First I want to mention that its been a very busy week for me and I will post whats available on those from the 20th in the neat future.  Ill be posting in groups of 10 as I find time to transcribe instead of the 60 some at once.
       
      Wirz was incontrol of the interior of ths stockade walls.  There were several Winders involved in the prison system connected with Andersonville.   General J. H. WInder was the Commander of Confederate Military Prisons in charge of the prisons East of the Mississippi.  His son,  ( Post commander ) was W. Sidney Winder was in charge of the basic day to day operation outside the prison pen walls and there was a third by the name of Richard B. Winder who was Quartermaster and oversaw the commissary at Camp Sumter ( Andersonville ). Richard was the Nephew of J. H. Winder. When Wirz needed anything, he had to go to W. Sidney, who went to Richard B, who had to deal long distance with those powers that be in Richmond including J. H. for supplies.  As we all well know dealing with any Government the more steps you have to go through to get anything, the odds increase of nothing happening.
       
      I have not read anything of anyone else here being placed on trial as Wirz was.  The answer to your question of General J. H. WInder being tried was that he died February 6 1865 , just months before the war ended leaving Wirz holding the bag.  Wirz`s trial, in my belief was a farse and history as well as transcripts show this.  First, a  few details that  might be new to those who are reading this.
       
      Wirz left Switzerland several years before the war began to find new life in America.  His wife had died and he left at least one child ( I believe there were two ) in the hands of his parents.  He came to America established a new life , got married, and soon had two children shortly before the war began.  After being shot through the arm at the battle of Seven Pines, he spent some time at Libby prison in a post and soon was sent here to Andersonville soon after this stockade opened.  He arrived here March 27 1864 , 32 days after the  first prisoners arrived. The stockade was only three sided until just after he arrived, but prisoners were being transfered here from Belle Island and other sites at numbers of 400 a day for the first several months.  As these prisoners came in so fast, and supplies so slow , it only accelerated the problems that soon became out of control.  I believe that many designs of this stockade that might have helped in the problems were postponed and ignored as the hope and plans of resuming exchanges were always a day away and the feeling was that these modifications were not needed.
       
      The following is going to sound wishy washy but I have very mixed views on Wirz.
      In defence of Wirz ( Yall hang with me now ) I will say that I have seen documents in his own handwriting begging for more food and supplies as well as less prisoners. He always got the reverse.  Wirz was on trial in an attempt to get him to implicate Jeff Davis and up until the day he was hanged, he would not do so. There are several examples of Wirz having moments of compassion.   After arriving here, one of his first acts after seeing the many young boys of ages of 12 to 15 was to having them removed from the general population and paroling them outside the stockade for use as errand boys, and to do chores for the guards.  Being so far from anything and deep in Confederate lines, he knew the chance of them escaping was slim.  He felt that boys of such a young age should not have to suffer in the events of what happened inside the prison walls.  He also helped the prisoner self organized Police force ( The Regulators ) overpower , hold trial, and punish those " Raiders"  who caused so much mysery, robbery, and murder among the prison population including the execution of the 6 ringleaders.  In the summer when conditions were the worst, Wirz allowd a party of 6 prisoners to be paroled to carry a large written petition to Washington demanding the resumption of exchanges.  The problem here is that these men had outlasted their enlistment and they turned this document over to a federal officer when dicharged before they simply went home. These are just a few examples that come to mind showing his intent was not for the extermination of Federal prisoners.  During his trial, there were later proven witnesses who were never here at  Andersonville.   Since this document that the paroled prisoners never made it to Washington, it was not allowed to be submitted in his defence although several of these men gave sworn testimony in person at the trail of Wirz allowing their freedom.   The judge said simply , No document,, it never happened.
       
       Now for the flip side.
      Wirz was not a kind man for certain.  One of the descendants of Wirz`s Children he left in Switzerland is an officer in the Swiss Military.                Swiss Col. Heinrich Wirz has done a great deal of research on his infamous ancestor for many years and has met with Andersonville Park personell several times. His research shows that his infamous ancestor left Switzerland just a few steps ahead of the law and was far from the model citizen.  Although much of his life was on the wrong side of the law and honesty, his final fate was fueled by the need for someone to pay.
       
      My view,, and its just an opinion,, is that the end for Wirz was the result of one of the best things that happened here at Andersonville.  A fellow prisoner here by the name of Dorence Atwater was placed in charge of keeping the dead rolls.  I can go into a long story but thanks to his work only 460 of the 12920 who died here lie in unmarked graves. He also made a secret copy which he smuggled out upon his release late in 1864 which he had printed in many large newspapers when the war ended. It was this incredible record keeping that fueled the need for someone to pay for what happened here.  I look at it this way.  There were 58000 who died in Vietnam.   Thats a huge number but its a cold number.  For those of you who have traveled to Washington to see the WALL you know that these 58000 names become more personal as you connect with people.  These were men and women who had Mothers, Fathers, Children.  Having this experiance brings passion and anger at the loss and removes the coldness from that huge number.
       
      I believe that Atwaters list caused the same result.  When your loved one went off to war and never came back , there would have been grief yes, but to think he died in battle defending his beliefs was one thing, but to find he died here at Andersonville for certain, and to hear the many stories told and printed by the more than 33000 survivors who survived , would have fueled the need for payback.  WInder was not there,, Wirz was and being the main link to all stories he paid the price.  Were there things he might have done to help the conditions here and he did not?  I believe there were a couple things that were in his hands which I could go into later, but with Lincolns vision for healing the wounds . the payment with Wirz life I think , was the simplest way to get past Andersonville and the hatred those family members of the ex-prisoners had against the people of the south might have been simplified if it could be directed at one person.
       
      I Hope I havent rambled on to much ( grin )
       
      Kevin
       
       
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: George
      Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 2:22 AM
      Subject: [20thMass] Re: Andersonville

      Hi Kevin, I have a question which I don't know will be within your
      scope of knowledge, but I always have been curious to know the
      answer so I will ask, anyway. I know of course that Wirz, the
      Andersonville warden was tried and hanged after the War. It is my
      understanding that Wirz's boss was a Confederate General I believe
      out of Richmond named General Winder. This General Winder had a
      reputation for cruelty towards Union prisoners as well, and as
      Wirz's boss, shared a lot of the blame for conditions at
      Andersonville.

      My question: Was Winder ever tried by Union authorities after the
      War as Wirz was? If so, what was the disposition of his trial? And
      if he was not tried, why not? I never understood Wirz's execution
      by itself for what happened at Andersonville, while not holding
      accountable the Confederate authorities that he answered to, who at
      the minimum were at least equally responsible. Thanks.
      George.


      --- In 20thMass@yahoogroup s.com, "Kevin Frye"
      <Frye@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Gang,
      > Sorry for the previous posting as I thought it was going
      private to Coly. Guess I better introduce myself. My name is Kevin
      Frye and I am a local part time historian and volunteer for the
      National Park Service at Andersonville National Historic Site. I
      have been here as a volunteer for more than 10 years and can answer
      any question,, well nearly any question you might think of about
      Andersonville. If I cant answer it, I will research and find the
      answer if its available. I have a copy of the park database here at
      my home which not only has details on those from the 20th who were
      and still are here but also has more than 41000 records of those
      held as POW at Andersonville. My offer for FREE research for the
      asking is simply an email away. If you prefer me to answer in a
      private email, or publicly to this forum for all to share, just let
      me know.
      >
      > Kevin Frye
      > Andersonville Historian / NPS Volunteer
      > www.angelfire. com/ga2/Anderson villeprison/
      >
      >
      >
      > Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
      > Jesus Christ and the American G I.
      >
      > One died for your soul, the other for your freedom
      >


      No virus found in this incoming message.
      Checked by AVG Free Edition.
      Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:10 AM



      "History is not the relation of campaigns and battles and generals or other individuals but that which shows the principles for which the South contended and which justified her struggle for those principles" Gen. Robert E. Lee

      __________________________________________________
      Do You Yahoo!?
      Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      http://mail.yahoo.com

    • Kevin Frye
      You are correct Jimmy. The Civil War POW holding policy, no matter what the reasons were , and there were many, were a sad fate for the typical in the field
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 20, 2007
      View Source
      • 0 Attachment
        You are correct Jimmy.  The Civil War POW holding policy, no matter what the reasons were , and there were many, were a sad fate for the typical in the field soldier.  As usual, in all wars, it is the individual who pays the price in decisions made.  There are so many other prisons worth noting that were also failed experiments which was the case of Civil War POW sites.  Other horrible places in the North as you mentioned, Elmira, Point Lookout, Fort Delaware, Douglas in Chicago, Rock Island Illinois all come to mind as well as Confederate stockades such as Andersonville, Cahaba Alabama, Salisbury, Libby, Belle Island, Danville, Florence, Blackshire, Millen , Macon and Thomasville Georgia all come to mind.  Andersonville stands out because of the highest numbers held, dead and survivors, but the history of these other Hell Holes should not be forgotten.  The History Channel did a segment last year on Douglas and I was in hopes that they would continue shows about these I have mentioned that are not well known but maybe with forums like this, they will not be completely forgotten.
         
        Kevin

         
      • Kevin Frye
        Code No: 44220 Grave No: 0 Last Name: Baker First Name: William Rank: Musician Company: A Regiment: 20 State: MA Branch Of Service : Infantry Date of Death:
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 20, 2007
        View Source
        • 0 Attachment
          Code No: 44220
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Baker
          First Name: William
          Rank: Musician
          Company: A
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death:
          Cause of Death:
          Remarks* Exchanged March 8, 1865; mustered out July 16, 1865.
          Reference: p 496 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 496
          Place Captured: p 496 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 496
          Date Captured: 6/3/1864
          Alternate Names:
          Status: Survived Andersonville
          Muster date: 7/16/1862
          Age at Muster: 19
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
          Code No: 10642
          Grave No: 642
          Last Name: Barge
          First Name: Henry
          Rank: Private
          Company: E
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death: 4/20/1864
          Cause of Death: FEVER TYPHUS
          Remarks* HENRY BARZ [1][2]
          Reference: p 18 [3]; p 531 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 531
          Place Captured:
          Date Captured:
          Alternate Names: Barz
          Status: Died at  Andersonville
          Muster date:  4/8/1863
          Age at Muster: 28
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
          Code No: 19078
          Grave No: 9078
          Last Name: Bauer
          First Name: Michael
          Rank: Private
          Company: B
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death: 9/17/1864
          Cause of Death:  scorbutus
          Remarks* MICHAEL BAUR, COMPANY A [1][2]; M. BANNER, COMPANY B [3]
          Reference: p 18 [3]; p 504 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 504
          Place Captured: Cold Harbor, Virginia
          Date Captured: 6/3/1864
          Alternate Names: Baur   Banner
          Status:  Died at  Andersonville
          Muster date:  8/7/1863
          Age at Muster: 24
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
           
          Code No: 44242
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Baxter
          First Name: John W.
          Rank: Private
          Company: K
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death:
          Cause of Death:
          Remarks* Exchanged at Vicksburg, Mississippi, April 19, 1865. Released April 22, 1865 and mustered out June 16, 1865
          Reference: p 577 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 577
          Place Captured: North Anna River, Virginia
          Date Captured: 5/21/1864
          Alternate Names:
          Status: Survived Andersonville
          Muster date:  8/18/1863
          Age at Muster: 21
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
           
          Code No: 44226
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Bohme
          First Name: Franz
          Rank: Private
          Company: C
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death:
          Cause of Death:
          Remarks* Exchanged November 26, 1864; discharged for disability, April 29, 1865.
          Reference: p 513 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 513
          Place Captured: Wilderness, Virginia
          Date Captured: 5/6/1864
          Alternate Names:
          Status: Survived Andersonville
          Muster date:  4/14/1864
          Age at Muster: 26
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
          Code No:  44224
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Bornemann
          First Name: Henry C. A.
          Rank: Private
          Company: B
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death:
          Cause of Death:
          Remarks* Sent to Camp Lawton, Millen, Georgia November 11, 1865. Released April 22, 1865; mustered out May 29, 1865.
          Reference: p 505 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 505
          Place Captured: Wilderness, Virginia
          Date Captured: 5/6/1864
          Alternate Names: Burnaman
          Status: Survived Andersonville
          Muster date:  4/2/1864
          Age at Muster: 31
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
           
          Code No: 50878
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Carney
          First Name: William
          Rank: Private
          Company: K
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death: 9/18/1864
          Cause of Death: .
          Remarks* Reported to have died at Andersonville, September 18, 1864.
          Reference: p 578 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 578
          Place Captured:
          Date Captured:
          Alternate Names:
          Status: Reported to have died at Andersonville
          Muster date:  8/5/1863
          Age at Muster: 21
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
           
          Code No: 64066
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Chapman
          First Name: Joseph
          Rank: Private
          Company: E
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death:
          Cause of Death:
          Remarks* Sent to Andersonville, June 8, 1864. Died in prison at Florence, Souh Carolina, date unknown
          Reference: MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 533
          Place Captured: Cold Harbor, Virginia
          Date Captured: 6/3/1864
          Alternate Names:
          Status: Survived Andersonville
          Muster date: 8/8/1861
          Age at Muster: 31
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
           
          Code No: 44235
          Grave No: 0
          Last Name: Constant
          First Name: Francis
          Rank: Private
          Company: F
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death:
          Cause of Death:
          Remarks* Joined Confederate Army while a prisoner. Recaptured, date not noted. Sent to Nashville, Tennessee and released July 6, 1865 on taking oath of allegiance. Mustered out July 24, 1865.
          Reference: p 541 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 541
          Place Captured: Wilderness, Virginia
          Date Captured: 5/6/1864
          Alternate Names:
          Status: Survived Andersonville
          Muster date:  4/1/1864
          Age at Muster: 23
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
           
           
          Code No: 15409
          Grave No: 5409
          Last Name: Cott
          First Name: John
          Rank: Private
          Company: K
          Regiment: 20
          State: MA
          Branch Of Service : Infantry
          Date of Death: 8/12/1864
          Cause of Death: Anasarca
          Remarks* J. COLT [3]
          Reference: p 19 [3]; p 579 [33], MASS ADG RPT VOL II: 579
          Place Captured: Wilderness, Virginia
          Date Captured: 5/6/1864
          Alternate Names: Colt
          Status: Died at Andersonville
          Muster date:  8/5/1863
          Age at Muster: 22
          More Information Available : NO
           
           
          3 = List of Union Soldiers Buried at Andersonville; Dorence Atwater, 1865.
           
          33 = Massachusetts Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines in the Civil War, Volume II; State of Massachusetts, 1931.
           
           
           
        • George
          Hi Kevin, and thank you for your informative, detailed response (and No, I don t believe that you unduly rambled!). I had no idea that there were so many
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 20, 2007
          View Source
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Kevin, and thank you for your informative, detailed response
            (and No, I don't believe that you unduly rambled!). I had no idea
            that there were so many Winders; I presume that the Winder that I
            was inquiring about to you with uncertainty was the General Winder
            who died in February, 1865, but I guess that it could have been any
            one of
            them.

            I have to say that your defense of Wirz at least in my case, falls
            on deaf ears in the respect of his pleading for assistance from
            Richmond and receiving none as it but reinforces the conviction in
            my mind (as I originally posted) that officials in addition of Wirz
            should have been held accountable for what happened at
            Andersonville. If you feel that there was an injustice done to Wirz
            for being the only one to "hold the bag" for Andersonville-yes I
            agree with you! He should have had
            company!

            You made reference to Lincoln; one note that you may-or may not-
            know is that during the War, his oft-repeated and advertised offers
            of pardons and amnesty for Confederates did specifically exclude
            those Confederates such as Wirz and Winder-ie. those involved in the
            administration of Union POW's. Had Lincoln lived, we will never
            know what he may have done, and Wirz may very well have had his
            company on the gallows. Frankly, I am surprized that Andrew Johnson
            allowed even Wirz to be hung, as no one else-including Jefferson
            Davis-
            was.

            Thank you again for your response and detailed information! Are you
            also involved with the touching and well-done Andersonville
            website? If so, it is excellent, and I will visit it often. Thanks
            again.
            George.


            --- In 20thMass@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Frye" <Frye@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi George,
            > First I want to mention that its been a very busy week for me
            and I will post whats available on those from the 20th in the neat
            future. Ill be posting in groups of 10 as I find time to transcribe
            instead of the 60 some at once.
            >
            > Wirz was incontrol of the interior of ths stockade walls. There
            were several Winders involved in the prison system connected with
            Andersonville. General J. H. WInder was the Commander of
            Confederate Military Prisons in charge of the prisons East of the
            Mississippi. His son, ( Post commander ) was W. Sidney Winder was
            in charge of the basic day to day operation outside the prison pen
            walls and there was a third by the name of Richard B. Winder who was
            Quartermaster and oversaw the commissary at Camp Sumter (
            Andersonville ). Richard was the Nephew of J. H. Winder. When Wirz
            needed anything, he had to go to W. Sidney, who went to Richard B,
            who had to deal long distance with those powers that be in Richmond
            including J. H. for supplies. As we all well know dealing with any
            Government the more steps you have to go through to get anything,
            the odds increase of nothing happening.
            >
            > I have not read anything of anyone else here being placed on trial
            as Wirz was. The answer to your question of General J. H. WInder
            being tried was that he died February 6 1865 , just months before
            the war ended leaving Wirz holding the bag. Wirz`s trial, in my
            belief was a farse and history as well as transcripts show this.
            First, a few details that might be new to those who are reading
            this.
            >
            > Wirz left Switzerland several years before the war began to find
            new life in America. His wife had died and he left at least one
            child ( I believe there were two ) in the hands of his parents. He
            came to America established a new life , got married, and soon had
            two children shortly before the war began. After being shot through
            the arm at the battle of Seven Pines, he spent some time at Libby
            prison in a post and soon was sent here to Andersonville soon after
            this stockade opened. He arrived here March 27 1864 , 32 days after
            the first prisoners arrived. The stockade was only three sided
            until just after he arrived, but prisoners were being transfered
            here from Belle Island and other sites at numbers of 400 a day for
            the first several months. As these prisoners came in so fast, and
            supplies so slow , it only accelerated the problems that soon became
            out of control. I believe that many designs of this stockade that
            might have helped in the problems were postponed and ignored as the
            hope and plans of resuming exchanges were always a day away and the
            feeling was that these modifications were not needed.
            >
            > The following is going to sound wishy washy but I have very mixed
            views on Wirz.
            > In defence of Wirz ( Yall hang with me now ) I will say that I
            have seen documents in his own handwriting begging for more food and
            supplies as well as less prisoners. He always got the reverse. Wirz
            was on trial in an attempt to get him to implicate Jeff Davis and up
            until the day he was hanged, he would not do so. There are several
            examples of Wirz having moments of compassion. After arriving
            here, one of his first acts after seeing the many young boys of ages
            of 12 to 15 was to having them removed from the general population
            and paroling them outside the stockade for use as errand boys, and
            to do chores for the guards. Being so far from anything and deep in
            Confederate lines, he knew the chance of them escaping was slim. He
            felt that boys of such a young age should not have to suffer in the
            events of what happened inside the prison walls. He also helped the
            prisoner self organized Police force ( The Regulators ) overpower ,
            hold trial, and punish those " Raiders" who caused so much mysery,
            robbery, and murder among the prison population including the
            execution of the 6 ringleaders. In the summer when conditions were
            the worst, Wirz allowd a party of 6 prisoners to be paroled to carry
            a large written petition to Washington demanding the resumption of
            exchanges. The problem here is that these men had outlasted their
            enlistment and they turned this document over to a federal officer
            when dicharged before they simply went home. These are just a few
            examples that come to mind showing his intent was not for the
            extermination of Federal prisoners. During his trial, there were
            later proven witnesses who were never here at Andersonville.
            Since this document that the paroled prisoners never made it to
            Washington, it was not allowed to be submitted in his defence
            although several of these men gave sworn testimony in person at the
            trail of Wirz allowing their freedom. The judge said simply , No
            document,, it never happened.
            >
            > Now for the flip side.
            > Wirz was not a kind man for certain. One of the descendants of
            Wirz`s Children he left in Switzerland is an officer in the Swiss
            Military. Swiss Col. Heinrich Wirz has done a great
            deal of research on his infamous ancestor for many years and has met
            with Andersonville Park personell several times. His research shows
            that his infamous ancestor left Switzerland just a few steps ahead
            of the law and was far from the model citizen. Although much of his
            life was on the wrong side of the law and honesty, his final fate
            was fueled by the need for someone to pay.
            >
            > My view,, and its just an opinion,, is that the end for Wirz was
            the result of one of the best things that happened here at
            Andersonville. A fellow prisoner here by the name of Dorence
            Atwater was placed in charge of keeping the dead rolls. I can go
            into a long story but thanks to his work only 460 of the 12920 who
            died here lie in unmarked graves. He also made a secret copy which
            he smuggled out upon his release late in 1864 which he had printed
            in many large newspapers when the war ended. It was this incredible
            record keeping that fueled the need for someone to pay for what
            happened here. I look at it this way. There were 58000 who died in
            Vietnam. Thats a huge number but its a cold number. For those of
            you who have traveled to Washington to see the WALL you know that
            these 58000 names become more personal as you connect with people.
            These were men and women who had Mothers, Fathers, Children. Having
            this experiance brings passion and anger at the loss and removes the
            coldness from that huge number.
            >
            > I believe that Atwaters list caused the same result. When your
            loved one went off to war and never came back , there would have
            been grief yes, but to think he died in battle defending his beliefs
            was one thing, but to find he died here at Andersonville for
            certain, and to hear the many stories told and printed by the more
            than 33000 survivors who survived , would have fueled the need for
            payback. WInder was not there,, Wirz was and being the main link to
            all stories he paid the price. Were there things he might have done
            to help the conditions here and he did not? I believe there were a
            couple things that were in his hands which I could go into later,
            but with Lincolns vision for healing the wounds . the payment with
            Wirz life I think , was the simplest way to get past Andersonville
            and the hatred those family members of the ex-prisoners had against
            the people of the south might have been simplified if it could be
            directed at one person.
            >
            > I Hope I havent rambled on to much ( grin )
            >
            > Kevin
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: George
            > To: 20thMass@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 2:22 AM
            > Subject: [20thMass] Re: Andersonville
            >
            >
            > Hi Kevin, I have a question which I don't know will be within
            your
            > scope of knowledge, but I always have been curious to know the
            > answer so I will ask, anyway. I know of course that Wirz, the
            > Andersonville warden was tried and hanged after the War. It is
            my
            > understanding that Wirz's boss was a Confederate General I
            believe
            > out of Richmond named General Winder. This General Winder had a
            > reputation for cruelty towards Union prisoners as well, and as
            > Wirz's boss, shared a lot of the blame for conditions at
            > Andersonville.
            >
            > My question: Was Winder ever tried by Union authorities after
            the
            > War as Wirz was? If so, what was the disposition of his trial?
            And
            > if he was not tried, why not? I never understood Wirz's
            execution
            > by itself for what happened at Andersonville, while not holding
            > accountable the Confederate authorities that he answered to, who
            at
            > the minimum were at least equally responsible. Thanks.
            > George.
            >
            >
            > --- In 20thMass@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Frye"
            > <Frye@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Gang,
            > > Sorry for the previous posting as I thought it was going
            > private to Coly. Guess I better introduce myself. My name is
            Kevin
            > Frye and I am a local part time historian and volunteer for the
            > National Park Service at Andersonville National Historic Site. I
            > have been here as a volunteer for more than 10 years and can
            answer
            > any question,, well nearly any question you might think of about
            > Andersonville. If I cant answer it, I will research and find the
            > answer if its available. I have a copy of the park database here
            at
            > my home which not only has details on those from the 20th who
            were
            > and still are here but also has more than 41000 records of those
            > held as POW at Andersonville. My offer for FREE research for the
            > asking is simply an email away. If you prefer me to answer in a
            > private email, or publicly to this forum for all to share, just
            let
            > me know.
            > >
            > > Kevin Frye
            > > Andersonville Historian / NPS Volunteer
            > > www.angelfire.com/ga2/Andersonvilleprison/
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
            > > Jesus Christ and the American G I.
            > >
            > > One died for your soul, the other for your freedom
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -----------
            >
            >
            > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
            > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date:
            10/19/2007 5:10 AM
            >
          • Kevin Frye
            ... From: George To: 20thMass@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:18 PM Subject: [20thMass] Re: Andersonville Hi Kevin, and thank you for your
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 20, 2007
            View Source
            • 0 Attachment
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: George
              Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 3:18 PM
              Subject: [20thMass] Re: Andersonville

              Hi Kevin, and thank you for your informative, detailed response
              (and No, I don't believe that you unduly rambled!). I had no idea
              that there were so many Winders; I presume that the Winder that I
              was inquiring about to you with uncertainty was the General Winder
              who died in February, 1865, but I guess that it could have been any
              one of
              them.

              I have to say that your defense of Wirz at least in my case, falls
              on deaf ears in the respect of his pleading for assistance from
              Richmond and receiving none as it but reinforces the conviction in
              my mind (as I originally posted) that officials in addition of Wirz
              should have been held accountable for what happened at
              Andersonville. If you feel that there was an injustice done to Wirz
              for being the only one to "hold the bag" for Andersonville- yes I
              agree with you! He should have had
              company!

              You made reference to Lincoln; one note that you may-or may not-
              know is that during the War, his oft-repeated and advertised offers
              of pardons and amnesty for Confederates did specifically exclude
              those Confederates such as Wirz and Winder-ie. those involved in the
              administration of Union POW's. Had Lincoln lived, we will never
              know what he may have done, and Wirz may very well have had his
              company on the gallows. Frankly, I am surprized that Andrew Johnson
              allowed even Wirz to be hung, as no one else-including Jefferson
              Davis-
              was.



              --- In 20thMass@yahoogroup s.com, "Kevin Frye" <Frye@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi George,
              > First I want to mention that its been a very busy week for me
              and I will post whats available on those from the 20th in the neat
              future. Ill be posting in groups of 10 as I find time to transcribe
              instead of the 60 some at once.
              >
              > Wirz was incontrol of the interior of ths stockade walls. There
              were several Winders involved in the prison system connected with
              Andersonville. General J. H. WInder was the Commander of
              Confederate Military Prisons in charge of the prisons East of the
              Mississippi. His son, ( Post commander ) was W. Sidney Winder was
              in charge of the basic day to day operation outside the prison pen
              walls and there was a third by the name of Richard B. Winder who was
              Quartermaster and oversaw the commissary at Camp Sumter (
              Andersonville ). Richard was the Nephew of J. H. Winder. When Wirz
              needed anything, he had to go to W. Sidney, who went to Richard B,
              who had to deal long distance with those powers that be in Richmond
              including J. H. for supplies. As we all well know dealing with any
              Government the more steps you have to go through to get anything,
              the odds increase of nothing happening.
              >
              > I have not read anything of anyone else here being placed on trial
              as Wirz was. The answer to your question of General J. H. WInder
              being tried was that he died February 6 1865 , just months before
              the war ended leaving Wirz holding the bag. Wirz`s trial, in my
              belief was a farse and history as well as transcripts show this.
              First, a few details that might be new to those who are reading
              this.
              >
              > Wirz left Switzerland several years before the war began to find
              new life in America. His wife had died and he left at least one
              child ( I believe there were two ) in the hands of his parents. He
              came to America established a new life , got married, and soon had
              two children shortly before the war began. After being shot through
              the arm at the battle of Seven Pines, he spent some time at Libby
              prison in a post and soon was sent here to Andersonville soon after
              this stockade opened. He arrived here March 27 1864 , 32 days after
              the first prisoners arrived. The stockade was only three sided
              until just after he arrived, but prisoners were being transfered
              here from Belle Island and other sites at numbers of 400 a day for
              the first several months. As these prisoners came in so fast, and
              supplies so slow , it only accelerated the problems that soon became
              out of control. I believe that many designs of this stockade that
              might have helped in the problems were postponed and ignored as the
              hope and plans of resuming exchanges were always a day away and the
              feeling was that these modifications were not needed.
              >
              > The following is going to sound wishy washy but I have very mixed
              views on Wirz.
              > In defence of Wirz ( Yall hang with me now ) I will say that I
              have seen documents in his own handwriting begging for more food and
              supplies as well as less prisoners. He always got the reverse. Wirz
              was on trial in an attempt to get him to implicate Jeff Davis and up
              until the day he was hanged, he would not do so. There are several
              examples of Wirz having moments of compassion. After arriving
              here, one of his first acts after seeing the many young boys of ages
              of 12 to 15 was to having them removed from the general population
              and paroling them outside the stockade for use as errand boys, and
              to do chores for the guards. Being so far from anything and deep in
              Confederate lines, he knew the chance of them escaping was slim. He
              felt that boys of such a young age should not have to suffer in the
              events of what happened inside the prison walls. He also helped the
              prisoner self organized Police force ( The Regulators ) overpower ,
              hold trial, and punish those " Raiders" who caused so much mysery,
              robbery, and murder among the prison population including the
              execution of the 6 ringleaders. In the summer when conditions were
              the worst, Wirz allowd a party of 6 prisoners to be paroled to carry
              a large written petition to Washington demanding the resumption of
              exchanges. The problem here is that these men had outlasted their
              enlistment and they turned this document over to a federal officer
              when dicharged before they simply went home. These are just a few
              examples that come to mind showing his intent was not for the
              extermination of Federal prisoners. During his trial, there were
              later proven witnesses who were never here at Andersonville.
              Since this document that the paroled prisoners never made it to
              Washington, it was not allowed to be submitted in his defence
              although several of these men gave sworn testimony in person at the
              trail of Wirz allowing their freedom. The judge said simply , No
              document,, it never happened.
              >
              > Now for the flip side.
              > Wirz was not a kind man for certain. One of the descendants of
              Wirz`s Children he left in Switzerland is an officer in the Swiss
              Military. Swiss Col. Heinrich Wirz has done a great
              deal of research on his infamous ancestor for many years and has met
              with Andersonville Park personell several times. His research shows
              that his infamous ancestor left Switzerland just a few steps ahead
              of the law and was far from the model citizen. Although much of his
              life was on the wrong side of the law and honesty, his final fate
              was fueled by the need for someone to pay.
              >
              > My view,, and its just an opinion,, is that the end for Wirz was
              the result of one of the best things that happened here at
              Andersonville. A fellow prisoner here by the name of Dorence
              Atwater was placed in charge of keeping the dead rolls. I can go
              into a long story but thanks to his work only 460 of the 12920 who
              died here lie in unmarked graves. He also made a secret copy which
              he smuggled out upon his release late in 1864 which he had printed
              in many large newspapers when the war ended. It was this incredible
              record keeping that fueled the need for someone to pay for what
              happened here. I look at it this way. There were 58000 who died in
              Vietnam. Thats a huge number but its a cold number. For those of
              you who have traveled to Washington to see the WALL you know that
              these 58000 names become more personal as you connect with people.
              These were men and women who had Mothers, Fathers, Children. Having
              this experiance brings passion and anger at the loss and removes the
              coldness from that huge number.
              >
              > I believe that Atwaters list caused the same result. When your
              loved one went off to war and never came back , there would have
              been grief yes, but to think he died in battle defending his beliefs
              was one thing, but to find he died here at Andersonville for
              certain, and to hear the many stories told and printed by the more
              than 33000 survivors who survived , would have fueled the need for
              payback. WInder was not there,, Wirz was and being the main link to
              all stories he paid the price. Were there things he might have done
              to help the conditions here and he did not? I believe there were a
              couple things that were in his hands which I could go into later,
              but with Lincolns vision for healing the wounds . the payment with
              Wirz life I think , was the simplest way to get past Andersonville
              and the hatred those family members of the ex-prisoners had against
              the people of the south might have been simplified if it could be
              directed at one person.
              >
              > I Hope I havent rambled on to much ( grin )
              >
              > Kevin
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: George
              > To: 20thMass@yahoogroup s.com
              > Sent: Saturday, October 20, 2007 2:22 AM
              > Subject: [20thMass] Re: Andersonville
              >
              >
              > Hi Kevin, I have a question which I don't know will be within
              your
              > scope of knowledge, but I always have been curious to know the
              > answer so I will ask, anyway. I know of course that Wirz, the
              > Andersonville warden was tried and hanged after the War. It is
              my
              > understanding that Wirz's boss was a Confederate General I
              believe
              > out of Richmond named General Winder. This General Winder had a
              > reputation for cruelty towards Union prisoners as well, and as
              > Wirz's boss, shared a lot of the blame for conditions at
              > Andersonville.
              >
              > My question: Was Winder ever tried by Union authorities after
              the
              > War as Wirz was? If so, what was the disposition of his trial?
              And
              > if he was not tried, why not? I never understood Wirz's
              execution
              > by itself for what happened at Andersonville, while not holding
              > accountable the Confederate authorities that he answered to, who
              at
              > the minimum were at least equally responsible. Thanks.
              > George.
              >
              >
              > --- In 20thMass@yahoogroup s.com, "Kevin Frye"
              > <Frye@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hi Gang,
              > > Sorry for the previous posting as I thought it was going
              > private to Coly. Guess I better introduce myself. My name is
              Kevin
              > Frye and I am a local part time historian and volunteer for the
              > National Park Service at Andersonville National Historic Site. I
              > have been here as a volunteer for more than 10 years and can
              answer
              > any question,, well nearly any question you might think of about
              > Andersonville. If I cant answer it, I will research and find the
              > answer if its available. I have a copy of the park database here
              at
              > my home which not only has details on those from the 20th who
              were
              > and still are here but also has more than 41000 records of those
              > held as POW at Andersonville. My offer for FREE research for the
              > asking is simply an email away. If you prefer me to answer in a
              > private email, or publicly to this forum for all to share, just
              let
              > me know.
              > >
              > > Kevin Frye
              > > Andersonville Historian / NPS Volunteer
              > > www.angelfire. com/ga2/Anderson villeprison/
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Only two defining forces have ever offered to die for you,
              > > Jesus Christ and the American G I.
              > >
              > > One died for your soul, the other for your freedom
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
              -----------
              >
              >
              > No virus found in this incoming message.
              > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              > Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.1/1079 - Release Date:
              10/19/2007 5:10 AM
              >


              No virus found in this incoming message.
              Checked by AVG Free Edition.
              Version: 7.5.488 / Virus Database: 269.15.3/1081 - Release Date: 10/19/2007 5:41 PM
            • Kevin Frye
              If your speaking of www.angelfire.com/ga2/Andersonvilleprison/ then yes I am involved. It is 100 % my website. Kevin Thank you again for your response and
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 20, 2007
              View Source
              • 0 Attachment
                If your speaking of www.angelfire.com/ga2/Andersonvilleprison/  then yes I am involved.   It is 100 % my website.
                 
                Kevin
                 
                 
                 
                Thank you again for your response and detailed information! Are you
                also involved with the touching and well-done Andersonville
                website? If so, it is excellent, and I will visit it often. Thanks
                again.
                George.

              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.