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Re: ethics in this hobby

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  • lovejoy_horses
    If you think not much good is harsh, don t enter a model horse competition - some of the ladies judging those are terrifying! ;) In all seriousness, I really
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 25, 2012
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      If you think 'not much good' is harsh, don't enter a model horse competition - some of the ladies judging those are terrifying! ;)

      In all seriousness, I really don't think the Ebob horses are as good as they are made out to be; I bought one of the 'Heroic pose' rearing horses for a conversion I wanted to do, and it's still sat in my leadpile, as I just can't bring myself to use it. That said, he does some great human sculpts, which I guess shows that the wargaming hobby pays more attention to the soldiers than they do the horses.

      As for seeing some of mine, there's several examples on my website here:

      http://michaellovejoy.com/animals/animals.html

      Cheers,
      Michael Lovejoy



      --- In 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com, Mike Siggins <msiggins@...> wrote:
      >
      > Not much good? Bit harsh.
      >
      > Can we see some of yours?
      >
      > Mike
      >
      > On 22 October 2012 21:01, lovejoy_horses <micklovejoy@...> wrote:
      >

      > > I have to agree, the horses in the wargaming hobby are often very badly
      > > sculpted, and the human figures in the model horse hobby are often equally
      > > bad.
      > >
      > > I think it's just down to what the hobbyists in question are used to
      > > looking at - to those who have spent a lifetime looking at tiny Roman
      > > legionaries for example, all horses look pretty much the same. And for the
      > > model horse crowd, the human figures are basically just window dressing for
      > > that exquisite Sarah Rose sculpt...
      > >
      > > I've been involved in sculpting for both hobbies over the years, and have
      > > done a few rider figures for Horsing Around, but mostly do military figures
      > > now.
      > >
      > > In answer to your original question, I don't think there's anything
      > > unethical about sculpting horses to fit existing rider models; it's no
      > > different to all the after-market companies that offer resin parts for
      > > model tanks and cars.
      > >
      > > But if you are looking to create something that will last, it might be
      > > worth making 'blank' or 'dolly' horses for 28mm wargaming figures, and
      > > selling them with a licence to allow people to sculpt on to them and cast
      > > them. Ebob miniatures is the main producer of these at the minute:
      > > http://www.ebobminiatures.com/products/horses.htm
      > >
      > > They are considered the industry standard, and are used by many companies,
      > > but in my opinion, I reckon they are not really much good. It might be well
      > > worth having a go at doing something similar.
      > >
      > > Cheers,
      > > Michael Lovejoy

      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Stacy Hofman
      I thought your name sounded familiar Acorn is definitely my favorite! I did go and look at the E Bob horses. I would have to investigate the limitations of
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 25, 2012
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        I thought your name sounded familiar "Acorn" is definitely my favorite! I
        did go and look at the E Bob horses. I would have to investigate the
        limitations of pewter casting before it is something I would seriously
        consider. I can sculpt as small as half an inch but will admit my preferred
        is from 2 to 4 inches high at the backbone. Grin yes some of those model
        horse judges can be pretty terrifying, especially when you consider that
        there are no real workshops or criteria that the judges have to meet before
        they are appointed judges. Hence at one show your model can absolutely be
        loved and adored and at the next show it is chopped liver! I have the
        capabilities to produce model horses in porcelain but really hesitate to do
        so as I know I would receive a lot back after doing the show circuit with
        broken legs etc. with attached Post-it notes can you please repair and have
        it back to me as good as new by next Tuesday?

        I've been to several of those shows and the people who show in the China and
        porcelain categories must have nerves of steel!



        Sincerely,

        Stacy



        From: 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of lovejoy_horses
        Sent: Thursday, October 25, 2012 9:28 AM
        To: 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [1listSculpting] Re: ethics in this hobby





        If you think 'not much good' is harsh, don't enter a model horse competition
        - some of the ladies judging those are terrifying! ;)

        In all seriousness, I really don't think the Ebob horses are as good as they
        are made out to be; I bought one of the 'Heroic pose' rearing horses for a
        conversion I wanted to do, and it's still sat in my leadpile, as I just
        can't bring myself to use it. That said, he does some great human sculpts,
        which I guess shows that the wargaming hobby pays more attention to the
        soldiers than they do the horses.

        As for seeing some of mine, there's several examples on my website here:

        http://michaellovejoy.com/animals/animals.html

        Cheers,
        Michael Lovejoy

        --- In 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:1listSculpting%40yahoogroups.com> , Mike Siggins <msiggins@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Not much good? Bit harsh.
        >
        > Can we see some of yours?
        >
        > Mike
        >
        > On 22 October 2012 21:01, lovejoy_horses <micklovejoy@...> wrote:
        >

        > > I have to agree, the horses in the wargaming hobby are often very badly
        > > sculpted, and the human figures in the model horse hobby are often
        equally
        > > bad.
        > >
        > > I think it's just down to what the hobbyists in question are used to
        > > looking at - to those who have spent a lifetime looking at tiny Roman
        > > legionaries for example, all horses look pretty much the same. And for
        the
        > > model horse crowd, the human figures are basically just window dressing
        for
        > > that exquisite Sarah Rose sculpt...
        > >
        > > I've been involved in sculpting for both hobbies over the years, and
        have
        > > done a few rider figures for Horsing Around, but mostly do military
        figures
        > > now.
        > >
        > > In answer to your original question, I don't think there's anything
        > > unethical about sculpting horses to fit existing rider models; it's no
        > > different to all the after-market companies that offer resin parts for
        > > model tanks and cars.
        > >
        > > But if you are looking to create something that will last, it might be
        > > worth making 'blank' or 'dolly' horses for 28mm wargaming figures, and
        > > selling them with a licence to allow people to sculpt on to them and
        cast
        > > them. Ebob miniatures is the main producer of these at the minute:
        > > http://www.ebobminiatures.com/products/horses.htm
        > >
        > > They are considered the industry standard, and are used by many
        companies,
        > > but in my opinion, I reckon they are not really much good. It might be
        well
        > > worth having a go at doing something similar.
        > >
        > > Cheers,
        > > Michael Lovejoy

        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • gp_illustrator
        Sorry about resurrecting this older thread, but what exactly are butterfly block molds ? I ve googled and and all I find are molds for butterflies, which I m
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 28, 2013
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          Sorry about resurrecting this older thread, but what exactly are "butterfly block molds"? I've googled and and all I find are molds for butterflies, which I'm sure is not what I was looking for.



          ---In 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com, <1listsculpting@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          Dear Brian,

          I am familiar with making butterfly block molds for four limbed animals.
          While it's extremely time intensive, actually the silicone costs only run
          right around $100 for an equine type figure in 120mm scale. And while
          pressure casting cannot guarantee the elimination of all air bubbles if air
          vent are placed strategically; it can eliminate most of them. The people I
          have sold to before would much rather fill in a couple of pinholes then
          spend the time and energy aligning various body parts, filling in the gaps
          etc. before proceeding to priming. The major difficulty with the method I
          use, is you're only going to get from 40 to 50 pulls before you have to
          remake the mold. I always assumed that all the different body parts in the
          kits that I have been buying have been caused by the limitations and mold
          requirements necessary to do plastic injection molding. Chuckle am I wrong?
          Is there an innate desire to fit 1 million Little pieces together before you
          can finish your project?



          Eventually I would like to farm the mold making out and know of several
          companies in the US and abroad that are using the same methodology than I am
          and it would end up costing approximately $25 for each raw casting. Each
          casting would be in polyurethane resin. If I start doing sculptures of
          equines 32 mm scale and under, I would definitely hire the work out to a
          company that specializes in pewter.



          I have unfortunately been extremely burned trying to do licensing agreements
          in the past. There simply is no real way to keep track of how much someone
          actually sells; so you have no idea if you're being underpaid or not.



          Sincerely,

          Stacy





          From: 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com [mailto:1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com]
          On Behalf Of Brian
          Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:57 AM
          To: 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [1listSculpting] Re: ethics in this hobby






          This is the corundum of the garage caster. If you cast the horse as a whole
          the mold could cost a fortune if you use a block mold. You could ease the
          cost by using a glove mold and a stiff backing. Though it really depends. I
          hate to recommend it but you may consider casting in multiple parts. The
          pressure pot method for resin may not get rid of all the air bubbles in the
          horse or the figure is cast as one piece.

          Depending on the size of the model and how you are casting it you may look
          at some small casting shops. Maybe "Licence" the production of the model to
          a larger casting house. I work for Troll Forged Minis, though we mostly cast
          28 to 30mm models. I am trying to get Ed to look at providing services to
          solo artists using our casting method. Though it really depends on what is
          to be cast and how. I can say that he would not do a cast of the horse as
          one model. If it were in parts we may be able to help.

          If you are interested in talking to Ed you can contact him through the
          website.
          http://trollforged.com/
        • diquet
          Hi, its been a while since I looked at casting techniques, but reading the message to give context, I believe they are referring to a method of casting using a
          Message 4 of 19 , Oct 30, 2013
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            Hi, its been a while since I looked at casting techniques, but reading the message to give context, I believe they are referring to a method of casting using a multipart mold instead of a standard 2 part mold. Normally, if you put a horse into a 2 part mold, the extremities would get trapped into the rubber so you need to cut the model into pieced to make it work. This method *I believe* involves one block in the void between all 4 legs, and then 2 blocks to enclose the rest of the model with the separation line running the length of the horses body. More time consuming as using rtv rubber you'll need to pour 3 lots of rubber.

            Personally, as far as horses go in 32mm/28mm etc, I wouldn't even entertain the idea - its not so difficult to cut a horse figure apart that it warrants the extra cost (using a third party molder) and effort involved. I would suggest its only really viable if you're doing models on a much larger scale.

            I hope this helps, and if anyone else has a better understanding please jump in and add to or correct any of the above!

            Cheers

            Dan
          • havloc
            Actually a butterfly mold is where you make a box that fits your whole object. Make sure there is at least 1/4 air gap between the box wall and your object to
            Message 5 of 19 , Oct 30, 2013
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              Actually a butterfly mold is where you make a box that fits your whole object. Make sure there is at least 1/4" air gap between the box wall and your object to be cast and 1/4" or more between the top of your object and the top of your box. Then you make one rubber pour covering the entire piece (I like smooth on moldmax 30). Once it's cured pop the silicone rubber out of it's box and start cutting from your sprues like you are spiting open a pair of butterfly wings. This type of mold is great for doing something up fast and you don't need a lot of pulls and the waste of rubber at small scale is negligible. At larger scales the rubber waste goes up and it can be tough to open as you may have very thick parts of the mold to peel back from your casting.



              ---In 1listSculpting@yahoogroups.com, <1listsculpting@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

              Hi, its been a while since I looked at casting techniques, but reading the message to give context, I believe they are referring to a method of casting using a multipart mold instead of a standard 2 part mold. Normally, if you put a horse into a 2 part mold, the extremities would get trapped into the rubber so you need to cut the model into pieced to make it work. This method *I believe* involves one block in the void between all 4 legs, and then 2 blocks to enclose the rest of the model with the separation line running the length of the horses body. More time consuming as using rtv rubber you'll need to pour 3 lots of rubber.

              Personally, as far as horses go in 32mm/28mm etc, I wouldn't even entertain the idea - its not so difficult to cut a horse figure apart that it warrants the extra cost (using a third party molder) and effort involved. I would suggest its only really viable if you're doing models on a much larger scale.

              I hope this helps, and if anyone else has a better understanding please jump in and add to or correct any of the above!

              Cheers

              Dan
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