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Re: Concerns for VIP 4

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  • Ming-Hua Kao
    Hi, ... As mentioned, we ll probably go by arrival of the money. Still, there will still be the matter of sending in the masters in time though. ... This
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 31, 2002
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      Hi,

      >Put a limit to the participants number seems fair. It puts even more
      >pressure on participants. Now, I live in Europe, and if I participate
      >my package will take more time arriving to Jeff than a package sent
      >from the US. How do you do it?
      As mentioned, we'll probably go by arrival of the money. Still, there will
      still be the matter of sending in the masters in time though.

      >What if we designated the figures that every participant has to comment
      >on? let's say: the first participant sending his mini gets to vote for the
      >5 minis arriving after his, let's call them minis 2,3,4,5 &6. Then
      >participant who sent mini 2 has to comment on minis 3,4,5,6,7... up to the
      >last participant who sent (in the example) mini 7 and who will comment on
      >minis 1,2,3,4,5...
      This sounds ok to me. Though what I would prefer is that we make a list and
      everybody at least reviews the next three sculptors on that list. Like that
      everybody should get multiple reviews and it's not that much work. We could
      make something like that a condition for the VIP. What do you think?

      Bye, Ming-Hua
    • pascale_roujou
      ... list and ... Like that ... We could ... That s exactly what I was thinking of; 3 is even less work than 5. So even easier. it think I would be good to have
      Message 2 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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        > This sounds ok to me. Though what I would prefer is that we make a
        list and
        > everybody at least reviews the next three sculptors on that list.
        Like that
        > everybody should get multiple reviews and it's not that much work.
        We could
        > make something like that a condition for the VIP. What do you think?
        >
        > Bye, Ming-Hua

        That's exactly what I was thinking of; 3 is even less work than 5. So
        even easier. it think I would be good to have this as a condition to
        participate considering the difficulties there were to have people
        comment on the previous VIPs. Not blaming anyone there as I am not a
        good student either with submitting my homework comments.

        Pascale
      • BatHead207@AOL.com
        In a message dated 03/31/2002 11:25:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, ... Not true. Us pros are not exactly making a whole lot of dough here, even at $300 a figure.
        Message 3 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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          In a message dated 03/31/2002 11:25:28 PM Eastern Standard Time,
          ripple@... writes:


          > The pros who are getting $300 per sculpt aren't going to
          > blink an eye at dropping the $50 for a set of sculpts.

          Not true. Us pros are not exactly making a whole lot of dough here, even at
          $300 a figure. We have to pay bills, too. $50 is a lot of money for the pros,
          as much as it is for anyone else. Also, the time spent sculpting a figure for
          VIP could have been spent on a figure that would have made us $300, if you
          take into account the $50 for a set of VIP figures that's a potential $250
          loss. My eyes are blinking so fast it looks like there's a strobe lite in
          here! :-)

          Cliff Linton
          Sculptor for Grim Reaper Casting,
          Maker of the "Nasteez" line of Fantasy miniatures
          Contact:
          <A HREF="mailto:grc1991@...">mailto:grc1991@...</A>
          <A HREF="mailto:BatHead207@...">mailto:BatHead207@...</A>
          Phone: 1(610) 998-9277
          Fax: 1(610) 998-9279
          <A HREF="http://www.grimreapercasting.com">http://www.grimreapercasting.com</A>


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • brainzilla_1
          ... like this. Aren t going to blink an eye eh? $300 is not as much as you seem to think. Most professionals are freelancers, if you consider how much they
          Message 4 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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            --- In 1listSculpting@y..., "spinningcharlie" <ripple@a...> wrote:
            > The second is the money issue. A lot of the people on this list
            > (especially the people interested in the VIP) are artist/creative-
            > types. I'm sure everyone is familiar with the "poor artist"
            > concept. The pros who are getting $300 per sculpt aren't going to
            > blink an eye at dropping the $50 for a set of sculpts. However,
            > there are those of us (such as myself) who have to budget things
            like this.


            "Aren't going to blink an eye" eh?
            $300 is not as much as you seem to think. Most "professionals" are
            freelancers, if you consider how much they must pay in normal taxes,
            self-employment taxes, health insurance, and operating expenses, take-
            home pay comes to about $180.
            Sculpt two figures a week and your take-home is still less than $400
            total.
            If you're a self-supporting adult, average living expenses will eat
            just about all of an income of that size.
            Throw in payments for a new car and there's nothing left.
            This is why there are fewer pros and more hobbyists everyday. They
            work dayjobs that pay well and sculpt in their spare time.

            Now, add to all this the fact that you must work extra to pay
            yourself to take a vacation because you have no employer to do it for
            you, and you must pay for all of your retirement plan (unless you
            never want to retire).

            I could come up with a few more things but I'm tired of writing this
            and I'm sure everyone's tired of reading this by now.

            B'Zilla
            p.s. Don't take this as a rant or flame, it's not.
          • Ironrook
            ... [snip] How many entries will be accepted has been determined by the caster in consultation with the previous caster for various reasons that have been
            Message 5 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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              > > At this stage an
              >> upper limit of 50 models (first come first serve) to be cast has
              >> been decided, and the costs have been worked around this.
              >
              >I do _NOT_ like this idea. While I certainly understand the
              >logistics behind this, I can think of many reasons why this is a bad
              >idea because it will exclude the newbies.
              [snip]

              How many entries will be accepted has been determined by the caster
              in consultation with the previous caster for various reasons that
              have been discussed at length.
              This is not negotiable.
              Entries will be taken in the order registration is made.
              It's an upper limit put in place "just in case" so the caster isn't
              being asked to make an open ended commitment.
              It would also be difficult to get very many commitments to enter if
              the casting fee was left open ended.
              There's no other way to set the fee than to pick a number and go with
              it so the participants can know what the fee is and the caster can
              know how many figs he's committed to cast.
              Unless something happens very different from the previous VIPs,
              everyone who wants to will be included.
              I seriously doubt you will get 50 entries so I think too much is
              being made of it.


              --

              mailto:ironrook@...
            • Eric J Gibson
              I know that my email provided isn t the most dependent and sometimes posts come late, out of order or not at all but I beleive the question was already
              Message 6 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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                I know that my email provided isn't the most dependent and sometimes posts come late, out of order or not at all but I beleive the question was already answered twice.

                1. No registration.
                2. If you want to sculpt...go ahead.
                3. If you want your models cast pay the full casting fee ($25.00+shipping). this reserves you a spot in the casting quota.
                4. Finish your master and send it in.
                5. Wait for models to come to you.

                Let not make more of this than it it.

                For people who are worried that the 50 slots will be taken up quickly...try not to worry much. As of the writing of this letter, there have been only 54 people Vote on the topic of VIP$ and that only take a minute.

                There is still people who are not going to like the subject and will not participate... Thene there are people who are not going to want to have there model cast. Either because they dont have the money or because they don't feel they are good enough and the submission of a model would be "embarrasing" (note to newbies- dont EVER be embarresed to have people see and critique your work- everybody was new once and lacked the refined skills to produce beautiful work). Then there is the "lurker" factor. There are tons of people on this list that have no interest in ever participating in VIP, some of those people MAY have even voted.

                Relax! Those people that want to get in on the casting, probably will!

                ---
                Thank You,
                Eric Gibson






                See Dave Matthews Band live or win a signed guitar
                http://r.lycos.com/r/bmgfly_mail_dmb/http://win.ipromotions.com/lycos_020201/splash.asp
              • Ironrook
                ... We are going to require that each person intending to participate fill out an on-line registration form. This is primarily just to make record keeping
                Message 7 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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                  >I know that my email provided isn't the most dependent and sometimes
                  >posts come late, out of order or not at all but I beleive the
                  >question was already answered twice.
                  >
                  >1. No registration.

                  We are going to require that each person intending to participate
                  fill out an on-line registration form.
                  This is primarily just to make record keeping easier and so we don't
                  have to manually type in all the mailing labels.

                  --

                  mailto:ironrook@...
                • Eric J Gibson
                  Fair enough. I stand corrected. ... Thank You, Eric Gibson On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:44:19 ... See Dave Matthews Band live or win a signed guitar
                  Message 8 of 21 , Apr 1, 2002
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                    Fair enough. I stand corrected.
                    ---
                    Thank You,
                    Eric Gibson



                    On Mon, 1 Apr 2002 12:44:19
                    Ironrook wrote:
                    >>I know that my email provided isn't the most dependent and sometimes
                    >>posts come late, out of order or not at all but I beleive the
                    >>question was already answered twice.
                    >>
                    >>1. No registration.
                    >
                    >We are going to require that each person intending to participate
                    >fill out an on-line registration form.
                    >This is primarily just to make record keeping easier and so we don't
                    >have to manually type in all the mailing labels.
                    >
                    >--
                    >
                    >mailto:ironrook@...
                    >


                    See Dave Matthews Band live or win a signed guitar
                    http://r.lycos.com/r/bmgfly_mail_dmb/http://win.ipromotions.com/lycos_020201/splash.asp
                  • spinningcharlie
                    ... depending on ... with $30 ... bought a ... condescending, ... Well, to let y all know where I m coming from on that.... First off, I was figuring that
                    Message 9 of 21 , Apr 2, 2002
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                      > JV: As of right now the cost is $25 plus variable shipping
                      depending on
                      > where you live (what country). So you are saying you cannot come up
                      with $30
                      > for a possible set of 50 miniatures. When was the last time you
                      bought a
                      > figure? That comes to 60 cents each. I do not mean to sound
                      condescending,
                      > but we are not talking about a lot of money here.

                      Well, to let y'all know where I'm coming from on that....
                      First off, I was figuring that there'd be a significant increase in
                      the number of minis being cast this round, as I've watched traffic
                      and VIP interest grow on this list since I started reading it near
                      the end of VIP2. So, I was figuring the cost would be $50, $100, or
                      possibly even higher.
                      When was the last time I bought a figure? Over a year ago (with the
                      _sole_ exception of Sandra's sculpt for VIC7). Like I said, I have
                      VERY little "disposable" cash.
                      I happen to live in an area that has a paper mill and tourism as its
                      primary industries. Due to a nearly snow-less winter, the tourism
                      industry is mostly spending more than they're making. The mill shut
                      down last year. So the area has an extremely high unemployment
                      rate. Jobs are (as a result) extremely scarce and not having one,
                      I'm VERY short on cash just trying to cover my living expenses.
                      Working out of town is not an option either - my car threw a rod and
                      it'll cost more that the car is worth just for the parts, let alone
                      the labor.
                      (All this is a big part of why I've been trying to get a contract or
                      two for sculpting and/or painting in various places....it's something
                      I can do from here that doesn't depend on the local economy.)
                      So to make a long story short, yes....I still need to budget just for
                      $25. It's not a "trivial" amount that I can just toss out in the
                      mail tomorrow. SO my concern still stands (although it is somewhat
                      lessed by the naming of an actual cost that is lower than I was
                      expecting).

                      > I think that it would be best if we figure out some way for everyone
                      > who wants to be cast to "register" for it, base the fee on the
                      > concrete number, and let people send cash when they send the minis.
                      > That way, everyone interested gets "locked in" and we "poor artists"
                      > can still stick to our budgets without panicking.
                      >
                      > JV: fewer figures will not necessarily change the overall price.

                      Actually, I was thinking that _more_ figures would be what might
                      impact the price...

                      > If it won't work that way, I suggest that (much as I'd like to have
                      a
                      > bunch of cheap sculpts from pros) that we exclude pros from the
                      > casting. I'm not trying to be biased here, but the original concept
                      > of the casting was that it be for the first-timers.
                      >
                      > JV: This is a chance for the pros to have some fun and they have
                      just as
                      > much right as anyone on the list to participate (more if you figure
                      the
                      > amount of info they contribute on this list IMO).

                      OK....this idea got stomped on pretty quickly and quite soundly. As
                      is apparently umm... apparent, I didn't read ALL of the original
                      posts on the subject (although I _did_ go back and read a bunch of
                      them). The impression I got was that the casting aspect was mainly
                      for the newbie experience, but I guess I just read the wrong ones.
                      What I was saying wasn't about who has a right to participate...it
                      was that if it WAS primarily for the newbies (which is now clear it
                      wasn't), then excluding the newbies in favor of the pros seemed wrong.

                      > While I empathize where you are coming from, I just can't accept
                      your
                      > arguments. We have outlined a fair system for all. It is economical
                      as well.
                      > I am sorry that it might not suit you. I certainly would not want
                      you to be
                      > excluded for any reason. I just wanted you to see this from my
                      perspective.

                      OK, so I was misguided about the intended purpose of the casting end
                      of things and didn't know that you weren't raising the price any.
                      That takes care of 90% of what I was worried about. The fact still
                      remains, however, that I may not be able to part with even $25/30 for
                      a couple weeks from now and that the slots may all be taken by then,
                      thus excluding me for the casting.

                      I've been anxiously awaiting this for for quite some time now (for
                      the exposure as much as anything else) and am quite worried I won't
                      make it into the casting just because I don't keep "throwaway" cash
                      kicking around. I'll be making a sculpt for the VIP regardless of
                      whether I make it into the casting or not....but I've been excluded
                      from other events in the past simply because I have to budget things
                      that a lot of people don't think twice about and don't want that to
                      happen here.
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